Last SUSE 10.2 Update Was A DOOZY
John Bailo, Texeme.Construct
Yeah, I know I -- like others -- were having problems with the Suse
ZEN Updater...but then I found a Novell FAQ that told me to basically
shitcan the thing and install opensuseupdater.
After that I starting getting a flurry of pent up updates that had
been denied me for the past months including a kernel update.
Well -- I don't know what they did to x.org but MAN my graphics have
gone from pretty good to stunning!
Especially running UT2004 on Suse 10.2 the experience is markedly more
crisp, deeper richer colors...even my son who was visiting and had
played UT on the old build, without my prompting said it was
spellbinding. And he had just been playing days of DirectX games
like Battlefield 2042 on the XP side of my dual boot machine before
flipping into Suse Linux and getting a glimpse of how really
spectacular (even my now quite dated, nVidia NX6600) hardware can
perform with a well written graphical subsystem!
Good work x.org, good work SUSE!
DFS
> Good work x.org, good work SUSE!
Screenshots of Battlefield 2042 on XP vs UT2004 on Suse would be
appropriate... not that we don't trust your frothing claims or anything...
John Bailo, Texeme.Construct
Or, you could just install Suse 10.2 on your machine and see for
yourself...
flyer
jab...@texeme.com says...
Thanks for the good news and the tips.
It's this kind of thing that is going to blast Linux so fast past any
other OS.
Then, rather than slowing down, it will gain speed and keep knocking off
everyone's socks.
Pretty amazing what freedom to create can do.
ml2mst
reason, it simply stopped working a couple of months ago. I tried to
reinstall openSUSE 10.2 but it wouldn't work.
Please don't get me wrong, this is no anti Novell or anti SUSE advocacy,
but something is really wrong :-(
Keep yourself informed and check out http://www.boycottnovell.com
Yes, I know, it's sad, but we have to face the facts (unfortunately).
--
|_|0|_| Marti T. van Lin
|_|_|0| http://ml2mst.googlepages.com
|0|0|0| http://osgeex.blogspot.com
DFS
> Duh, I've been working with SUSE since 1998, but for some mysterious
> reason, it simply stopped working a couple of months ago.
Linux is like that: yesterday it worked, today it doesn't.
Dr. Disco
"ml2mst" <ml2...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f8tr20$o4s$1...@news.albasani.net...
> John Bailo, Texeme.Construct schreef:
>> On Aug 1, 7:55 pm, "DFS" <nospam@dfs_.com> wrote:
>>> John Bailo, Texeme.Construct wrote:
>>>> Good work x.org, good work SUSE!
>>> Screenshots of Battlefield 2042 on XP vs UT2004 on Suse would be
>>> appropriate... not that we don't trust your frothing claims or
>>> anything...
>>
>> Or, you could just install Suse 10.2 on your machine and see for
>> yourself...
>>
> Duh, I've been working with SUSE since 1998, but for some mysterious
> reason, it simply stopped working a couple of months ago. I tried to
> reinstall openSUSE 10.2 but it wouldn't work.
With thousands of linux distros out there you'd think that one of them would
work.
Lienux - when you want spontaneous bit-rot!
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
waterskidoo
That's not typical. One thing that can be said about Linux is that
it is consistent. Installed systems don't develop bloat, registry
garbage from removed programs and such.
You may not like what Linux has to offer, and yes some programs
may need some work, but once you install a Linux system it
pretty much stays the same, for better or worse, depending upon
what you have installed.
The only times I have had Linux barf itself have been when hardware
problems arose.
ml2mst
I have no idea, why on Earth you are even reacting on DofuuS. Jeez, he's
the ultimate lier :-p
Anyway, currently I'm running Kubuntu and Debian Etch and they work just
fine :-)
KDE IMHO _is_ the ultimate desktop environment and *NO* I don't have
dual boot systems any longer, because I came to the conclusion that
Microsoft Windows is obsolete.
My opinion is that GNU/Linux is not only ready for the desktop yet, but
that it beats every competitive desktop by far!
waterskidoo
>
> I have no idea, why on Earth you are even reacting on DofuuS. Jeez, he's
> the ultimate lier :-p
>
> Anyway, currently I'm running Kubuntu and Debian Etch and they work just
> fine :-)
>
> KDE IMHO _is_ the ultimate desktop environment and *NO* I don't have
> dual boot systems any longer, because I came to the conclusion that
> Microsoft Windows is obsolete.
>
> My opinion is that GNU/Linux is not only ready for the desktop yet, but
> that it beats every competitive desktop by far!
I think it's important to challenge FUD when the opportunity
arises, especially blatant FUD like he wrote.
Maybe he doesn't like Linux, and maybe Linux isn't for everyone
but one thing that Linux has is consistency. It does exactly
what you tell it to do and just keeps on doing it.
Install a program, don't like it, remove it.
That's it, the program is gone.
Unlike Windows where you have no idea what has
been left lingering around in the registry slowing
the system down and causing bit-rot.
DFS
> I think it's important to challenge FUD when the opportunity
> arises, especially blatant FUD like he wrote.
What's FUD about it?
> Maybe he doesn't like Linux, and maybe Linux isn't for everyone
> but one thing that Linux has is consistency. It does exactly
> what you tell it to do and just keeps on doing it.
?????
Not 2 seconds ago ml2mst said "Duh, I've been working with SUSE since 1998,
but for some mysterious reason, it simply stopped working a couple of months
ago."
> Install a program, don't like it, remove it.
> That's it, the program is gone.
Is that what you think?
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.20/+bug/106217
And
http://www.tfug.org/helpdesk/linux/rpm.html "Sometimes a package is not
removed cleanly. Here is the situation, you try to install something and rpm
says its already installed. You then try to remove it, and rpm says that is
not installed."
And
http://www.ussg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0209.0/1291.html
And
Using various combinations of apt/synaptic/aptitude to install and uninstall
will leave orphaned packages on your Linux system.
> Unlike Windows where you have no idea what has
> been left lingering around in the registry slowing
> the system down and causing bit-rot.
Windows bit-rot will never slow it down to Linux speed.
And I've noticed something on an XP system I use at a client, and on my
Server 2003 system at home. If I encounter or cause a situation that slows
the system down (memory overload I guess): using the bogus Windows Search,
or trying to run certain Access queries against large databases, or just
running too many apps for a while... if the system bogs down, close down the
apps and keep using the system and in a few minutes the normal speed
returns. I leave my Server 2003 system up for weeks and don't experience
any bit-rot whatsoever.
Kier
> waterskidoo wrote:
>
>> I think it's important to challenge FUD when the opportunity
>> arises, especially blatant FUD like he wrote.
>
> What's FUD about it?
Assuming that this one instance of SUSE failing is a trait of all Linux.
It isn't. If it was caused by an update, it *might* be an issue with some
conflict between hardware and the kernel version.
>
>
>> Maybe he doesn't like Linux, and maybe Linux isn't for everyone
>> but one thing that Linux has is consistency. It does exactly
>> what you tell it to do and just keeps on doing it.
>
> ?????
>
> Not 2 seconds ago ml2mst said "Duh, I've been working with SUSE since 1998,
> but for some mysterious reason, it simply stopped working a couple of months
> ago."
Could be a hardware problem, since in my experience, Linux *doesn't*
suddenly stop working without reason.. Of course, it's possible to bugger
it up if you really try, but in that case re-installation should cure it
completely. If that isn't working, it points to some hardware issue.
--
Kier
ml2mst
like. I was just wondering, where you get the patience to fight these
shills ;-)
And I agree with you, maybe GNU/Linux is not for everyone, but I
installed various distributions (i frequently buy magazines with
CD/DVD-ROM's). At least I've installed the Distrowatch Top 10, the past
9 years and no matter what distribution, I could always get it to work.
Sometimes there where minor problems, but finally I always could get
everything to work properly.
I guess all Unices where made with competent users in mind (coders,
admins etc.), in contrast to Microsoft Windows, which was made with
unexperienced average joe six pack in mind.
OTOH the installation and configuration of almost *any* GNU/Linux
distribution has become so darn easy, that for the average user it
should not really matter if there is a Windows or GNU/Linux distribution
preinstalled.
I would like to apologize if I gave you the idea, I attacked you, that
was absolutely *not* my intention.
With kind regards
ml2mst
*exactly* the same hardware and it runs without a glitch.
Conclusion: it's not a "general" GNU/Linux problem but a typical
openSUSE problem!
It happened after the Microvell deal, while I started visiting
www.boycottnovell.com on a daily base. I am aware of the fact that this
sounds somehow paranoia, but maybe it's not a coincidence ;-)
I really have to add to this experience that I've had problems with
openSUSE 10.2 right from the start. Probably something went wrong while
downloading the DVD ISO image. On a recent Multimedia openSUSE spin
off, which was described at Distrowatch, I encountered the same problem!
After openSUSE 10.2 I tested half a dozen of distributions on this very
same box, without any problem.
Kier
SUE has had its share of problems, it's true. SO far I've not had any real
issues, myself, though I run both openSUSE 10.2 and SLED 10, or a laptop
and desktop respectively. They're both chugging along nicely as of the
present moment.
Obviously, your problem isn't a physical hardware problem, then. Could
well be a kernel thing after all. Something they've added or removed that
doesn't agree with your hardware setup.
>
> It happened after the Microvell deal, while I started visiting
> www.boycottnovell.com on a daily base. I am aware of the fact that this
> sounds somehow paranoia, but maybe it's not a coincidence ;-)
It probably is, actually. A coincidence, I mean. Conspiracy theory stuuff
is all very well for fictional fun, but in real life it's foolish and
dangerous. They would be stupid to deliberately break loyal users'
installations, for the obvious reason that the users then do what you've
done, and install another distro.
>
> I really have to add to this experience that I've had problems with
> openSUSE 10.2 right from the start. Probably something went wrong while
> downloading the DVD ISO image. On a recent Multimedia openSUSE spin
> off, which was described at Distrowatch, I encountered the same problem!
I get my big distros, like SUSE or Fedora, etc, from Linux Format magazine
covermounts. They're usually pretty good, and it saves long download times
for DVD ISOs
>
> After openSUSE 10.2 I tested half a dozen of distributions on this very
> same box, without any problem.
Have you had a look on any of the SUSE forums, to see if others have had
the same problems?
--
Kier
Hadron
> John Bailo, Texeme.Construct schreef:
>> On Aug 1, 7:55 pm, "DFS" <nospam@dfs_.com> wrote:
>>> John Bailo, Texeme.Construct wrote:
>>>> Good work x.org, good work SUSE!
>>> Screenshots of Battlefield 2042 on XP vs UT2004 on Suse would be
>>> appropriate... not that we don't trust your frothing claims or anything...
>>
>> Or, you could just install Suse 10.2 on your machine and see for
>> yourself...
>>
> Duh, I've been working with SUSE since 1998, but for some mysterious
> reason, it simply stopped working a couple of months ago. I tried to
> reinstall openSUSE 10.2 but it wouldn't work.
>
> Please don't get me wrong, this is no anti Novell or anti SUSE
> advocacy, but something is really wrong :-(
Wow. I thought you were a long term Linux advocate? Oh well. Finally you
realise it's not perfect. Maybe you should move back to Winblows or to a
nOOb's Distro like Ubuntu where you would be much happier?
Hadron
> Kier schreef:
>> On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 22:49:54 -0500, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> waterskidoo wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it's important to challenge FUD when the opportunity
>>>> arises, especially blatant FUD like he wrote.
>>> What's FUD about it?
>>
>> Assuming that this one instance of SUSE failing is a trait of all Linux.
>> It isn't. If it was caused by an update, it *might* be an issue with some
>> conflict between hardware and the kernel version.
>>
>>>
>>>> Maybe he doesn't like Linux, and maybe Linux isn't for everyone
>>>> but one thing that Linux has is consistency. It does exactly
>>>> what you tell it to do and just keeps on doing it.
>>> ?????
>>>
>>> Not 2 seconds ago ml2mst said "Duh, I've been working with SUSE
>>> since 1998, but for some mysterious reason, it simply stopped
>>> working a couple of months ago."
>>
>> Could be a hardware problem, since in my experience, Linux *doesn't*
>> suddenly stop working without reason.. Of course, it's possible to bugger
>> it up if you really try, but in that case re-installation should cure it
>> completely. If that isn't working, it points to some hardware issue.
>>
> Who cares (at least I don't) I'm currently running Kubuntu 7.04 on
> *exactly* the same hardware and it runs without a glitch.
Huh? When I mentioned "distro hell" and how not all HW works with the
same drivers on different kernels I was called a "liar". Looks like I
was correct after all. Poor ml2mst. He will now be branded a "troll
feeder" and thrown into a cell with Kier for being honest. Koehlmann is
heating up the charcoal brazier and polishing his wire rimmed specs as
we speak.
Mark Kent
Unfortunately, this is the very behaviour which the trolls rely on.
They post the most outrageous and ludicruous claims, and attempt to
"troll" a response. Exactly what they get from this is not entirely
clear, but you could pick from:
1. payment per response
2. personal satisfaction at being noticed
In all honesty, it would be better to update the FAQ, or even issue a
FAQ addendum than encourage the trolls. It's up to you, of course, but
I think you're in danger of giving credibility merely by responding, as
well as providing a platform for further daft claims.
--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
| Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
| Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
| My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |
ml2mst
Yes I agree, of cause it is, my Boycottnovell story of cause is a joke.
Stuff like that doesn't happen in the real world :-)
>
>> I really have to add to this experience that I've had problems with
>> openSUSE 10.2 right from the start. Probably something went wrong while
>> downloading the DVD ISO image. On a recent Multimedia openSUSE spin
>> off, which was described at Distrowatch, I encountered the same problem!
>
> I get my big distros, like SUSE or Fedora, etc, from Linux Format magazine
> covermounts. They're usually pretty good, and it saves long download times
> for DVD ISOs
Wow now that's a cool magazine. I've got some older numbers of it right
here. Linux Format is one of my favorites, but most of the time I'm too
lazy, too get into town to buy a new issue.
Thanks for reminding me, next time I should buy another magazine with a
DVD-ROM again. My problem is that most of the time I'm very curious and
exited if a new version of my favorite distro's is released. So that's
why I download them. I must admid, that it's stupid somehow. Why going
to the hassle of downloading a DVD image, if you can buy them with
another interesting magazine ;-)
>
>> After openSUSE 10.2 I tested half a dozen of distributions on this very
>> same box, without any problem.
>
> Have you had a look on any of the SUSE forums, to see if others have had
> the same problems?
>
No I didn't, I'm don't feel very comfortable with the Microsoft <>
Novell deal. So maybe the installation got psychic... ha ha ha ha :-)
waterskidoo
> Sorry waterscidoo, I didn't mean to criticize you, or something the
> like. I was just wondering, where you get the patience to fight these
> shills ;-)
I've basically stopped after finding myself at #1 on the troll feeder
list. However when blatant FUD is spread I try to correct things because
subsequent googles are going to find this FUD unchallenged.
> I would like to apologize if I gave you the idea, I attacked you, that
> was absolutely *not* my intention.
>
> With kind regards
No apology needed!!!!!
Linux isn't perfect and some distributions, updates, hardware
and so forth cause problems. I believe your problems were real.
What I was trying to counter was the implication, by DFS, that
this is a *normal/typical* occurrence with Linux which it
is not.
Kier
I wish *all* the daft conspiracy theorists would show that much sense.
>>
>>> I really have to add to this experience that I've had problems with
>>> openSUSE 10.2 right from the start. Probably something went wrong while
>>> downloading the DVD ISO image. On a recent Multimedia openSUSE spin
>>> off, which was described at Distrowatch, I encountered the same problem!
>>
>> I get my big distros, like SUSE or Fedora, etc, from Linux Format magazine
>> covermounts. They're usually pretty good, and it saves long download times
>> for DVD ISOs
>
> Wow now that's a cool magazine. I've got some older numbers of it right
> here. Linux Format is one of my favorites, but most of the time I'm too
> lazy, too get into town to buy a new issue.
I try to buy it every month if possible. It's definitely the best Linux
mag out there, neither too highbrow nor too dumbed-down.
>
> Thanks for reminding me, next time I should buy another magazine with a
> DVD-ROM again. My problem is that most of the time I'm very curious and
> exited if a new version of my favorite distro's is released. So that's
> why I download them. I must admid, that it's stupid somehow. Why going
> to the hassle of downloading a DVD image, if you can buy them with
> another interesting magazine ;-)
I download CD ISOs, usually, if I'm interested in the distro. DVD-sized
ones just take too long, as I have only a modest-speed broadband
connection. There are torrents of course, but they never seem to be much
quicker in my experience.
--
Kier
ml2mst
time, but I feel I have to respect other people's points of view. I
*personally* think it's no use feeding them. Fortunately Roy Schestowitz
teached me, a couple of years ago, that it's a "dead end"
I guess it would be more constructive to them, if they started
advocating their "great" OS in the proper NG, but obviously nobody likes
Windows, the way we in cola like GNU/Linux. Very logical, because
GNU/Linux is a choice, Windows is not.
Windows is preinstalled on almost every computer you'll buy. Most
Windows users don't have a clue how the darn machine works and never saw
a CLI. On the other hand we have GNU/Linux, which simply attracts more
competent computer users. So probably the colatrolls simply suffer from
a minority complex.
Sad, sad, sad...
Oh, BTW, I really loved your trolls article on www.thereisnomagic.org
Great description ;-)
dapunka
<snip>
>Most
> Windows users don't have a clue how the darn machine works and never saw
> a CLI.
The control line scares some people! Fact!
Some time ago, when I couldn't get online at home, I was using a
computer at the library, trying to telnet into a shell account I've
got. A librarian saw that I had the command prompt up on the
(Windows) machine, he stormed over and _told me off_!! Said I wasn't
allowed to use the command line!
They must think that by using the CLI, I'm breaking out of the prison
Microsoft has created for us... that I'm going to use some previously
untapped computing power and do black magic over the internet...
DFS
> Windows is preinstalled on almost every computer you'll buy.
And that's because when stores preinstall Linux on PCs, nobody buys them.
When stores sell Linux box sets, nobody buys them.
This evening I visited MicroCenter, a really good computer store/chain, for
the first time in months. Well, the one near me (Duluth GA USA) quit
selling Linux systems sometime in the last few months. And they now carry
only Linspire box sets (at various times they've carried Slackware, Suse,
Xandros, FreeBSD, Mandriva, and others). And there were no Linux mags on
the shelves. They still had a bunch of Linux books on the shelves, though.
Overall, not nearly as "Linux-friendly" there as in the past.
> Most Windows users don't have a clue how the darn machine works
How would you know?
> and never saw a CLI.
Again, how would you know? Many if not most Windows users grew up w/ DOS,
then Windows, so they're well familiar with the command line. And
Start|Run|cmd is used often in the Windows world.
> On the other hand we have GNU/Linux, which simply attracts
> more competent computer users.
That's debatable nowadays. It might have been true in the 1991-2000 time
frame, but today there's a lot of point-click Linux morons sliming up
Usenet.
> So probably the colatrolls simply
> suffer from a minority complex.
>
> Sad, sad, sad...
What's sad is you Linux users lowering your standards because the crapware
is free. Time for you to get happy, and use the operating platform offering
the best apps, games and most/best hardware: Microsoft Windows (though I
admit to being torn - their stuff\commercial Windows apps are the best, but
the more people use them the more monoculture the world is, and that ain't
good at all).
> Oh, BTW, I really loved your trolls article on www.thereisnomagic.org
> Great description ;-)
Guess which "troll" he was whining about in that article? spike1, a cola
Linux "advocate"! LOL! You bozos can't keep your heads on straight.
Plus, it's very pathetic that Roy [H]omer Kent has to brag about his own
bogus cola posts (that nobody reads) in a blog (that nobody reads).
DFS
> I try to buy it every month if possible. It's definitely the best
> Linux mag out there, neither too highbrow nor too dumbed-down.
It's up to USD $16.99 an issue on the newsstands here, and the subscription
is now USD $180! Too rich for my blood - I'm going to buy every other or
every third one. If the money was going to a distro or developer I wouldn't
have a problem, but it's Future Publishing. I'm trying to justify it, but
that's a lot for a monthly magazine. Maybe they donate to open source
projects?
High Plains Thumper
> ml2mst wrote:
>
>> So probably the colatrolls simply suffer from a minority
>> complex.
>>
>> Sad, sad, sad...
>
> What's sad is you Linux users lowering your standards because
> the crapware is free. Time for you to get happy, and use the
> operating platform offering the best apps, games and most/best
> hardware: Microsoft Windows (though I admit to being torn -
> their stuff\commercial Windows apps are the best, but the more
> people use them the more monoculture the world is, and that
> ain't good at all).
Ummmh, yeah, right ....
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/24/1095961845053.html
[quote]
A five-company consortium has been awarded a €7 million
three-year contract by the French Ministry of Defence to build a
Linux-based multi-level secure operating system.
The five companies are Bertin Technologies, Surlog, Jaluna,
Mandrakesoft, and Oppida, all big European players in security,
operating system, and certification technologies.
[/quote]
Those Linux software writers certainly didn't go hungry.
However, bomp, bomp, bomp, another one bytes the dust:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2091734,00.asp
[quote]
Red Hat Lands Swedish Windows-to-Linux Contract
By Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols
February 7, 2007
Nine times out of 10, Linux migration contracts are about
companies switching from Unix to Linux. This one's the tenth. Red
Hat announced on Feb. 6 in Stockholm, Sweden that the Swedish
Armed Forces has decided to migrate its servers from Windows NT
to RHEL (Red Hat Enterprise Linux).
[/quote]
--
HPT
Gregory Shearman
Fuck off Quark. As usual you are wrong.
--
Regards,
Gregory.
Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power
Mark Kent
You're absolutely right, Linux and linux distros are not, and never can
be, perfect. You're also right that DFS making things up, he always
does, but it is very much as a troll attempt.
Mark Kent
And you and Roy are quite right here, in my view, too.
>
> I guess it would be more constructive to them, if they started
> advocating their "great" OS in the proper NG, but obviously nobody likes
> Windows, the way we in cola like GNU/Linux. Very logical, because
> GNU/Linux is a choice, Windows is not.
I'd love to see them move over to comp.os.windowsnt.advocacy or whatever
it's called (something like that); it's where they should be, for sure.
>
> Windows is preinstalled on almost every computer you'll buy. Most
> Windows users don't have a clue how the darn machine works and never saw
> a CLI. On the other hand we have GNU/Linux, which simply attracts more
> competent computer users. So probably the colatrolls simply suffer from
> a minority complex.
An interesting thought!
>
> Sad, sad, sad...
>
> Oh, BTW, I really loved your trolls article on www.thereisnomagic.org
> Great description ;-)
>
Hehe - thanks!
Kier
The price isn't up to them (Linux Format itself, I mean). It's down to the
exchange rate, and shipping costs, and is controlled by Future Publishing.
Other UK magazines are just as expensive on your side of the pond.
It's a pity, though, since it does make it harder for US readers and Linux
fans to get the mag. Maybe there's a LUG in your area, why not try
contacting them, see if they buy the magazine for their membership. If
they don't, you could suggest it to them - or they could club together and
buy a subscription and donate it to a local library.
--
Kier
DFS
> The price isn't up to them (Linux Format itself, I mean). It's down
> to the exchange rate, and shipping costs, and is controlled by Future
> Publishing. Other UK magazines are just as expensive on your side of
> the pond.
As far as I can tell, all their computer magazines are overpriced in the US.
Their Maximum PC is $8.99 or $9.99 on the newsstand here. LXF has a special
for UK readers only: 26 issues for 99 pounds (USD $201). The 26-issue USA
subscription is $321 (60% more).
All the Linux mags that come with a cover disc are now USD $15 and up
(newsstand price) here in the States, and the subscription prices are hardly
any better. LXF subscription is USD $13.70 an issue.
> It's a pity, though, since it does make it harder for US readers and
> Linux fans to get the mag. Maybe there's a LUG in your area, why not
> try contacting them, see if they buy the magazine for their
> membership. If they don't, you could suggest it to them - or they
> could club together and buy a subscription and donate it to a local
> library.
I need home copies, for use during reading time on the throne.
Kier
> Kier wrote:
>
>> The price isn't up to them (Linux Format itself, I mean). It's down
>> to the exchange rate, and shipping costs, and is controlled by Future
>> Publishing. Other UK magazines are just as expensive on your side of
>> the pond.
>
> As far as I can tell, all their computer magazines are overpriced in the US.
> Their Maximum PC is $8.99 or $9.99 on the newsstand here. LXF has a special
> for UK readers only: 26 issues for 99 pounds (USD $201). The 26-issue USA
> subscription is $321 (60% more).
Guess you'll have to take that up with Future Publishing. Though you may
find discussion on pricing overseas in the LXF forums. Seems unlikely that
the cost of shipping would amount to that much extra, but I suppose it's
possible.
>
> All the Linux mags that come with a cover disc are now USD $15 and up
> (newsstand price) here in the States, and the subscription prices are hardly
> any better. LXF subscription is USD $13.70 an issue.
>
>
>
>> It's a pity, though, since it does make it harder for US readers and
>> Linux fans to get the mag. Maybe there's a LUG in your area, why not
>> try contacting them, see if they buy the magazine for their
>> membership. If they don't, you could suggest it to them - or they
>> could club together and buy a subscription and donate it to a local
>> library.
>
> I need home copies, for use during reading time on the throne.
Looks like you'll just have to shell out the readies, then. (The
LUG/library idea is still worth pursuing, though, for the benefit of
others).
--
Kier
Tim Smith
waterskidoo <water....@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I've basically stopped after finding myself at #1 on the troll feeder
> list.
Neither the troll feeder list nor the quality poster list in the "stats"
posted weekly are fully derived from the newsgroup data. The software
has per person arbitrary constants that are added to people to make them
come out where the person running the script wants them to come out.
(Well, that's what the authors claim, although there is no way for the
rest of us to tell if it really done that way, or if [H]omer just
rearranges the results to his liking).
This is most likely the main reason the people running the script will
not make the source code available for inspection.
Anyway, what this means is that you shouldn't take your position on
those "stats" seriously. Being top of the troll feeder list just means
that one person, [H]omer, decided that you should be there, and so
assigned your arbitrary constant an appropriate value to put you there.
(Similar to the way he makes himself come out near the top of the
"quality" list each week).
There are three interesting things about the stats.
(1) Although they come from some of the most extreme anti-closed source
people here, they are closed source.
(2) They contain a large number of person insults, and these are
inconsistently applied. E.g., they have occasionally labeled one poster
as a racist, but ignored other racists posters. The difference...the
first doesn't like Linux, the second sort of does. The message there is
that Linux advocates find racism acceptable as long as the racist is on
the side of Linux.
(3) So many Linux advocates don't mind the things in #2 being done in
the name of Linux advocacy. By not speaking up, they are tacitly
agreeing with the ideas behind the stats (insults are acceptable
argument and things like racism are to be overlooked when found in a
fellow Linux advocate).
--
--Tim Smith
Linonut
> All the Linux mags that come with a cover disc are now USD $15 and up
> (newsstand price) here in the States, and the subscription prices are hardly
> any better. LXF subscription is USD $13.70 an issue.
Still, not bad for a single copy, strolling into B&N, and getting a DVD
full of software and some decent articles.
>> It's a pity, though, since it does make it harder for US readers and
>> Linux fans to get the mag. Maybe there's a LUG in your area, why not
>> try contacting them, see if they buy the magazine for their
>> membership. If they don't, you could suggest it to them - or they
>> could club together and buy a subscription and donate it to a local
>> library.
>
> I need home copies, for use during reading time on the throne.
You should be reading Bjarne Stroustrop on the throne instead. I've
learned many cool C++ techniques that way <grin>.
An appropriate sound file:
http://sounds.neilrogers.com/sounds/bonr19981/27.html
Now don't bother me. *Busy* right now! *Busy*
--
Tux rox!
Kier
That's not true of me. Racism is wrong. Full stop.
>
> (3) So many Linux advocates don't mind the things in #2 being done in
> the name of Linux advocacy. By not speaking up, they are tacitly
> agreeing with the ideas behind the stats (insults are acceptable
> argument and things like racism are to be overlooked when found in a
> fellow Linux advocate).
I've alweays thought the stats were amusing tripe, certainly not worth
taking seriously. But I never liked the insulting names for some posters,
whether or not they were/are trolls. That kind of thing makes Linux users
and advocates look like spite-filled, petty children, not reasonable
adults.
And racism should not be acceptable, full stop, in anyone, pro or
anti-Linux.
It's time we in the Linux advocacy community *grew the fuck up* and
stopped being whiny babies spewing silly insults like 'windopws' and 'M$'
and 'Fista' and actually addressed real and important concerns about Linux
in the real world.
--
Kier
DFS
> After takin' a swig o' grog, DFS belched out this bit o' wisdom:
>
>> All the Linux mags that come with a cover disc are now USD $15 and up
>> (newsstand price) here in the States, and the subscription prices
>> are hardly any better. LXF subscription is USD $13.70 an issue.
>
> Still, not bad for a single copy, strolling into B&N, and getting a
> DVD full of software and some decent articles.
I used to try and justify it to myself based mostly on the cover disc, since
it saves the time of downloading and burning a CD or DVD. But $14.00 an
issue (subscription) is just too much.
I got a B&N gift card last Christmas, and it has enough left on it for 4
more LXF issues and a small chocolate bundt cake each month.
>>> It's a pity, though, since it does make it harder for US readers and
>>> Linux fans to get the mag. Maybe there's a LUG in your area, why not
>>> try contacting them, see if they buy the magazine for their
>>> membership. If they don't, you could suggest it to them - or they
>>> could club together and buy a subscription and donate it to a local
>>> library.
>>
>> I need home copies, for use during reading time on the throne.
>
> You should be reading Bjarne Stroustrop on the throne instead. I've
> learned many cool C++ techniques that way <grin>.
I tend towards Linux and Oracle on the throne.
> An appropriate sound file:
>
> http://sounds.neilrogers.com/sounds/bonr19981/27.html
>
> Now don't bother me. *Busy* right now! *Busy*
ha! That's SICK!
DFS
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:20:28 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>> There are three interesting things about the stats.
>>
>> (1) Although they come from some of the most extreme anti-closed
>> source people here, they are closed source.
That's their hypocrisy bursting out.
>> (2) They contain a large number of person insults, and these are
>> inconsistently applied. E.g., they have occasionally labeled one
>> poster as a racist, but ignored other racists posters. The
>> difference...the first doesn't like Linux, the second sort of does.
>> The message there is that Linux advocates find racism acceptable as
>> long as the racist is on the side of Linux.
Which racist poster did they ignore? Wasn't me.
> That's not true of me. Racism is wrong. Full stop.
It's natural.
> It's time we in the Linux advocacy community *grew the fuck up* and
> stopped being whiny babies spewing silly insults like 'windopws' and
> 'M$' and 'Fista' and actually addressed real and important concerns
> about Linux in the real world.
Nice sentiment, but good luck with that. The first week cola was in
existence the idiots were acting the fool:
Dec 19-21, 1994 (apparently the first week cola was online):
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_thread/t...
"W*ndows For SleepGroups" (a reference to Windows for Workgroups)
"Dumb Old System's" (a reference to DOS)
"Microsloth"
"MSDOG" (another reference to DOS)
Nearly 13 years of childish lying isn't going to suddenly end 'cause one of
you wants it. Not that I'm totally innocent - I still label OpenOffice as
Slow-O (which it is), but that's the only one.
Kier
> Kier wrote:
>> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:20:28 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>
>>> There are three interesting things about the stats.
>>>
>>> (1) Although they come from some of the most extreme anti-closed
>>> source people here, they are closed source.
>
> That's their hypocrisy bursting out.
>
>
>
>>> (2) They contain a large number of person insults, and these are
>>> inconsistently applied. E.g., they have occasionally labeled one
>>> poster as a racist, but ignored other racists posters. The
>>> difference...the first doesn't like Linux, the second sort of does.
>>> The message there is that Linux advocates find racism acceptable as
>>> long as the racist is on the side of Linux.
>
> Which racist poster did they ignore? Wasn't me.
>
>
>
>> That's not true of me. Racism is wrong. Full stop.
>
> It's natural.
Really? No. It's learned. Taught to children by parents who should know
better. And still 100% WRONG. Skin colour is an adaptation to the strength
or lack of in the sun's rays. White people are white because they had
come to live in Northern climes and became adapted to less sunlight. Black
people are black as a protection from the very strong sunlight they live
under.
>
>
>
>> It's time we in the Linux advocacy community *grew the fuck up* and
>> stopped being whiny babies spewing silly insults like 'windopws' and
>> 'M$' and 'Fista' and actually addressed real and important concerns
>> about Linux in the real world.
>
> Nice sentiment, but good luck with that. The first week cola was in
> existence the idiots were acting the fool:
>
> Dec 19-21, 1994 (apparently the first week cola was online):
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_thread/t...
>
> "W*ndows For SleepGroups" (a reference to Windows for Workgroups)
> "Dumb Old System's" (a reference to DOS)
> "Microsloth"
> "MSDOG" (another reference to DOS)
>
> Nearly 13 years of childish lying isn't going to suddenly end 'cause one of
> you wants it. Not that I'm totally innocent - I still label OpenOffice as
> Slow-O (which it is), but that's the only one.
There are plenty of anti-Linux types who can't mange to spell Linux
properly, either. They seem to think it makes them look smart. It doesn't.
ANy more than calling Windows 'windopes' makes Linux advocates look clever.
*All* sides need to grow up.
--
Kier
--
Kier
Glenn Hutchings
> and so forth cause problems.
Indeed. No OS (or any other program) is perfect.
The difference with Linux, and all other free software, is that the
power to fix it is in the hands of the people, and not some faceless
company that doesn't give a flying fuck about you.
Free software. Ethically, it's the only choice!
Linonut
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:20:28 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>
>> (2) They contain a large number of person insults, and these are
>> inconsistently applied. E.g., they have occasionally labeled one poster
>> as a racist, but ignored other racists posters. The difference...the
>> first doesn't like Linux, the second sort of does. The message there is
>> that Linux advocates find racism acceptable as long as the racist is on
>> the side of Linux.
>
> That's not true of me. Racism is wrong. Full stop.
It is just one example of why Tim, for all his knowledge and obvious
intelligence, is a trolling twat.
> It's time we in the Linux advocacy community *grew the fuck up* and
> stopped being whiny babies spewing silly insults like 'windopws' and 'M$'
> and 'Fista' and actually addressed real and important concerns about Linux
> in the real world.
Those are perfectly good insults to utter contemptuously when Windows
screws the pooch on ya.
Hell, I sometimes utter "Linux crapware"! (Once in a rare while, that
is.)
--
Tux rox!
Linonut
> Nearly 13 years of childish lying isn't going to suddenly end 'cause one of
> you wants it. Not that I'm totally innocent - I still label OpenOffice as
> Slow-O (which it is), but that's the only one.
Odd. I've been pretty satisfied with OO, myself.
--
Tux rox!
Linonut
> There are plenty of anti-Linux types who can't mange to spell Linux
> properly, either. They seem to think it makes them look smart. It doesn't.
> ANy more than calling Windows 'windopes' makes Linux advocates look clever.
>
> *All* sides need to grow up.
Why?
I turned 50 (gasp!) on 07/07/07, and I'm still not grown up.
--
Tux rox!
Kier
> After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:
>
>> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:20:28 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>>
>>> (2) They contain a large number of person insults, and these are
>>> inconsistently applied. E.g., they have occasionally labeled one poster
>>> as a racist, but ignored other racists posters. The difference...the
>>> first doesn't like Linux, the second sort of does. The message there is
>>> that Linux advocates find racism acceptable as long as the racist is on
>>> the side of Linux.
>>
>> That's not true of me. Racism is wrong. Full stop.
>
> It is just one example of why Tim, for all his knowledge and obvious
> intelligence, is a trolling twat.
Except that he's right about the stats. They're biased, and always have
been.
>
>> It's time we in the Linux advocacy community *grew the fuck up* and
>> stopped being whiny babies spewing silly insults like 'windopws' and 'M$'
>> and 'Fista' and actually addressed real and important concerns about Linux
>> in the real world.
>
> Those are perfectly good insults to utter contemptuously when Windows
> screws the pooch on ya.
Not in here, where we are *supposed* to be debating real and important
issues like adults. Isn't it time we started behaving as if we were?
>
> Hell, I sometimes utter "Linux crapware"! (Once in a rare while, that
> is.)
Me too. But that's different.
--
Kier
Kier
It's only slow when first opened (and then not all that slow). Subequently
it's no slower than most apps, Windows or Linux. And there's always
Ooquickstarter.
--
Kier
Tim Smith
"DFS" <nospam@dfs_.com> wrote:
> >> (2) They contain a large number of person insults, and these are
> >> inconsistently applied. E.g., they have occasionally labeled one
> >> poster as a racist, but ignored other racists posters. The
> >> difference...the first doesn't like Linux, the second sort of does.
> >> The message there is that Linux advocates find racism acceptable as
> >> long as the racist is on the side of Linux.
>
> Which racist poster did they ignore? Wasn't me.
You were the one I was thinking of as the one they called racist. The
one I was thinking of that they ignore is greycloud.
> > That's not true of me. Racism is wrong. Full stop.
>
> It's natural.
The interesting thing I recall about the posts that got you labeled was
that you tried to rationally argue for your views. That is, you cited
national crime statistics. Of the people that responded, I recall two
groups.
The first group just said you were a racist, and ignored the stats.
The second, much smaller, group faced the stats head on and provided
good arguments as to why they didn't mean what you thought they meant.
(E.g., for historical reasons, blacks are disproportionately represented
among the poor, and the poor are more likely to commit crimes than the
rich, and so we expect disproportionately more blacks showing up in
crime statistics. I bet if you went back to the late 1800's through the
1940's or so, you'd find similar results for Jews and people of Irish
descent and other such groups that were heavily discriminated against in
the US at those times).
It's important to keep in mind that even if there are differences
between groups (whether actually due to race, or just due to societal or
cultural factors), there is a *huge* variation *within* each group
(variations that are much larger than the alleged differences between
the group averages), which means that when dealing with any individual,
you can't draw any meaningful conclusions based on race, religion, sex,
etc. When you are, say, hiring someone, you are hiring an individual,
not the entire race. A black on the high side of the black curve is
going to be better than a white on the low side of the white curve.
It's hard to come up with a situation where any actual difference
between races would matter to a rational person.
--
--Tim Smith
Kier
> In article <Jk1ti.3912$2v5....@bignews2.bellsouth.net>,
> "DFS" <nospam@dfs_.com> wrote:
>> >> (2) They contain a large number of person insults, and these are
>> >> inconsistently applied. E.g., they have occasionally labeled one
>> >> poster as a racist, but ignored other racists posters. The
>> >> difference...the first doesn't like Linux, the second sort of does.
>> >> The message there is that Linux advocates find racism acceptable as
>> >> long as the racist is on the side of Linux.
>>
>> Which racist poster did they ignore? Wasn't me.
>
> You were the one I was thinking of as the one they called racist. The
> one I was thinking of that they ignore is greycloud.
That idiot? Plonked many moons ago, for that among other things.
>
>> > That's not true of me. Racism is wrong. Full stop.
>>
>> It's natural.
>
> The interesting thing I recall about the posts that got you labeled was
> that you tried to rationally argue for your views. That is, you cited
> national crime statistics. Of the people that responded, I recall two
> groups.
>
> The first group just said you were a racist, and ignored the stats.
>
> The second, much smaller, group faced the stats head on and provided
> good arguments as to why they didn't mean what you thought they meant.
> (E.g., for historical reasons, blacks are disproportionately represented
> among the poor, and the poor are more likely to commit crimes than the
> rich, and so we expect disproportionately more blacks showing up in
> crime statistics. I bet if you went back to the late 1800's through the
> 1940's or so, you'd find similar results for Jews and people of Irish
> descent and other such groups that were heavily discriminated against in
> the US at those times).
True. That's happened in England, too. A lot of immigrant groups have had
the short en dof the stick, so it's not surprising they bite back.
My argumewnt always was, if you go to a country, say Africa, and drag
large numbers of its poeple from their villages, by force, and make them
slaves for centuries, then deny them rights when they are no longer
slaves, call them vile names, treat them like scum, it's a bit much to
expect them to be perfectly-behaved citizens. Yet many of them, the vast
majority, are normal, well-behaved, decent citizens, nor more and no than
whites.
We in the West are still dealing with the legacy we made for ourselves by
doing what we did in Africa and other places.
>
> It's important to keep in mind that even if there are differences
> between groups (whether actually due to race, or just due to societal or
> cultural factors), there is a *huge* variation *within* each group
> (variations that are much larger than the alleged differences between
> the group averages), which means that when dealing with any individual,
> you can't draw any meaningful conclusions based on race, religion, sex,
> etc. When you are, say, hiring someone, you are hiring an individual,
> not the entire race. A black on the high side of the black curve is
> going to be better than a white on the low side of the white curve.
> It's hard to come up with a situation where any actual difference
> between races would matter to a rational person.
Yes.
--
Kier
Linonut
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 16:45:16 +0000, Linonut wrote:
>
>> It is just one example of why Tim, for all his knowledge and obvious
>> intelligence, is a trolling twat.
>
> Except that he's right about the stats. They're biased, and always have
> been.
No shit. They're purely for entertainment, anyway, in my opinion. At
least, that's the way I treat 'em.
It is quite funny that some people treat them seriously, and get upset
about them
>>
>> Those are perfectly good insults to utter contemptuously when Windows
>> screws the pooch on ya.
>
> Not in here, where we are *supposed* to be debating real and important
> issues like adults. Isn't it time we started behaving as if we were?
Why?
Next you'll be telling us we should wear ties to work, and not telling
gauche dirty jokes in front of the lassies.
(Ironically, I have to, even when I'm coding up some Linux code.)
What a dull, dry, boring place this would be if we all behaved like
adults! FTS!
--
I refuse to grow up!
Linonut
Isn't it odd that Tim can't have this appropriate attitude to posters
here?
He needs to have his own bell-curve rung! <evil, knowing grin>
--
Tux rox!
Tim Smith
Kier <val...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> (2) They contain a large number of person insults, and these are
> >>> inconsistently applied. E.g., they have occasionally labeled one poster
> >>> as a racist, but ignored other racists posters. The difference...the
> >>> first doesn't like Linux, the second sort of does. The message there is
> >>> that Linux advocates find racism acceptable as long as the racist is on
> >>> the side of Linux.
> >>
> >> That's not true of me. Racism is wrong. Full stop.
> >
> > It is just one example of why Tim, for all his knowledge and obvious
> > intelligence, is a trolling twat.
>
> Except that he's right about the stats. They're biased, and always have
> been.
I think he took the last sentence wrong, which is my fault, because it
really should have been in the next paragraph--the bad message about
Linux advocates comes from so few speaking up against the problems with
the "stats".
In general, when you are a member of a group, and someone else in the
group does something stupid or obnoxious, you don't generalize from that
to all members of the group. An, in general, when someone in a group
you are NOT in does something stupid or obnoxious, there IS a tendency
to generalize that to the whole group.
This means that when a member of a large majority does something stupid,
it doesn't really cause people to look down on the whole group. But
when a member of a minority is stupid, it DOES lower the standing of the
minority.
For example, consider whenever there's a prominent child molestation
case. If it's a straight man going after a little girl, you don't see
much of a backlash against straight men in general. But if a gay man
goes after a little boy, gays in general take a lot of shit.
Or just listen to random ordinary people talk, especially when they are
annoyed by something. You'll find, for example, that they say things
like "I was trying to change lanes, and this black guy wouldn't let me
in" a lot more often than they say "I was trying to change lanes, and
this white guy cut me off", even though the later happens a lot more
than the former. Whites are the majority, so a white jerk is just a
jerk. Blacks are a minority, so a black jerk is a *black* jerk.
Linux users are a minority. People like 7, and [H]omer, and similar,
reduce the effectiveness of all Linux advocates, and lower the standing
of all Linux advocates with the very people that we need to advocate to.
Windows users are a large majority, so someone like linux-sux is just a
jerk, and doesn't harm his group.
--
--Tim Smith
Kier
> After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:
>
>> On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 16:45:16 +0000, Linonut wrote:
>>
>>> It is just one example of why Tim, for all his knowledge and obvious
>>> intelligence, is a trolling twat.
>>
>> Except that he's right about the stats. They're biased, and always have
>> been.
>
> No shit. They're purely for entertainment, anyway, in my opinion. At
> least, that's the way I treat 'em.
Me too, but the entertainment value isn't that great, IMO.
>
> It is quite funny that some people treat them seriously, and get upset
> about them
>
>>>
>>> Those are perfectly good insults to utter contemptuously when Windows
>>> screws the pooch on ya.
>>
>> Not in here, where we are *supposed* to be debating real and important
>> issues like adults. Isn't it time we started behaving as if we were?
>
> Why?
>
> Next you'll be telling us we should wear ties to work, and not telling
> gauche dirty jokes in front of the lassies.
I work in a factory ;-) It's a pretty rough and ready place.
>
> (Ironically, I have to, even when I'm coding up some Linux code.)
>
> What a dull, dry, boring place this would be if we all behaved like
> adults! FTS!
There's plenty of fun to be had in lively debate that doesn't sink to
childish name-calling, don't you think? This place could amount to
something if we tried to make it happen.
--
Kier
dapunka
> Next you'll be telling us we should wear ties to work, and not telling
> gauche dirty jokes in front of the lassies.
>
> (Ironically, I have to, even when I'm coding up some Linux code.)
You have to what? Wear a tie to work, or tell gauche dirty jokes in
front of the lassies? Or both??
High Plains Thumper
> ml2mst wrote:
>
>> Duh, I've been working with SUSE since 1998, but for some mysterious
>> reason, it simply stopped working a couple of months ago.
>
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/internet/ms-haiku.html
Yesterday it work'd.
Today it is not working.
Windows is like that.
--
HPT
DFS
Happy B'Day!
You're just 5 short years away from senior citizen discounts :-)
DFS
I use Access and Excel just about every business day (for like 10 years, a
bit less for Excel), and OpenOffice Base and Calc are not nearly up to
snuff. They're much slower in every operation. They're less sophisticated,
they interoperate with each other poorly or not at all, their graphing and
documentation is not as nice or complete, etc. They're not in the same
league for a power user or developer's needs.
What they have going for them is:
1) they work fine for basic needs - which is most people
2) they're free
3) the entire OO system is only 200mb, which is impressive
Tim Smith
"DFS" <nospam@dfs_.com> wrote:
> What they have going for them is:
>
> 1) they work fine for basic needs - which is most people
> 2) they're free
> 3) the entire OO system is only 200mb, which is impressive
However, the brain-dead decision to use ";" instead of "," to separate
function arguments is, well, brain-dead.
--
--Tim Smith
Linonut
>> What a dull, dry, boring place this would be if we all behaved like
>> adults! FTS!
>
> There's plenty of fun to be had in lively debate that doesn't sink to
> childish name-calling, don't you think? This place could amount to
> something if we tried to make it happen.
One half would try to clean this place up while the other half defecated
and urinated on it!
--
I'm the big gorilla at the COLA Zoo!
Linonut
We have only one lassie, and she's pretty tolerant, but 'tis best to be
circumspect.
As for the tie, I used to ignore orders to wear ties, but now I no
longer care, except that it takes an extra few minutes in the morning.
--
Ties fly!
Linonut
>> I turned 50 (gasp!) on 07/07/07, and I'm still not grown up.
>
> You're just 5 short years away from senior citizen discounts :-)
That friggin' ARPA... I mean AARP. What a racket!
The government is pushing the retirement age up to ... what? .... 72?
And AARP's dunning us at age 50? WTF? Insanity! So much for their
freakin' lobby! Feckless old farts!
--
Geezers! Old codgers!
Linonut
> I use Access and Excel just about every business day (for like 10 years, a
> bit less for Excel), and OpenOffice Base and Calc are not nearly up to
> snuff. They're much slower in every operation. They're less sophisticated,
> they interoperate with each other poorly or not at all, their graphing and
> documentation is not as nice or complete, etc. They're not in the same
> league for a power user or developer's needs.
How do you know? You haven't used them for 10 years, have you?
http://projects.openoffice.org/index.html
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Extensions_repository
> What they have going for them is:
>
> 1) they work fine for basic needs - which is most people
> 2) they're free
> 3) the entire OO system is only 200mb, which is impressive
One problem is that they're a bit too closely tied with Sun and its
agenda(s).
--
Tux rox!
AB
> After takin' a swig o' grog, DFS belched out this bit o' wisdom:
>
>>> I turned 50 (gasp!) on 07/07/07, and I'm still not grown up.
>>
>> You're just 5 short years away from senior citizen discounts :-)
>
> That friggin' ARPA... I mean AARP. What a racket!
>
> The government is pushing the retirement age up to ... what? .... 72?
I think I fall right near the cutoff for 67. Not that it really matters
anyway. I don't depend on the govt to tell me when it's OK to relax or
when I *have* to relax.
> And AARP's dunning us at age 50? WTF? Insanity! So much for their
> freakin' lobby! Feckless old farts!
I'm not on their mailing list. I somehow slipped under their radar. And
I plan on keeping it that way. The only thing I've seem them do to help
anybody is/was helping themselves to more of the money pie coming
through their lobbying and bilking of old timers.
--
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright
until you hear them speak.