Forced sale of Microsoft OS with notebooks in the EU
dafydda...@gmail.com
here's a formal complaint i made about not being able to buy a notebook
(in Belgium) without buying Windows. I use Suse and Ubuntu, so am being
forced to buy something I do not need.
I don't know of anybody who has received their Windows Refund in
Belgium (apparently someone once did from Dell in France, but they then
changed company policy).
David
Dear Secretary General,
Dear Ms Day,
I am writing to make a formal complaint concerning the forced sale of
Microsoft OS with notebooks in Belgium and other EU countries, and more
specifically the failure of Belgian authorities to prevent the
distortion of the market for notebook laptop computers.
All major notebook computer suppliers in Belgium, perhaps representing
almost 99% of the retail notebook market, offer no option other than to
pay for a pre-installed version of Windows. Such companies include
Dell, Packard Bell, Photo Hall, MediaMarkt, HP, Sony, Toshiba, Acer,
Fujitsu Siemens, and Lenovo.
The forced pre-installing of and payment for Microsoft operating
systems on notebooks in Belgium has engendered a distorted market. The
companies involved maintain confidential pricing policies as to
manufacturer-paid charges for the Windows operating systems. However,
there are indications that this could lead to excess charges of EUR 100
for unit purchased by an end consumer.
As a user of an alternative operating system based upon a GNU General
Public License, as do some 5 percent of notebook users, I myself now
face being charged for a product I do not and will not need.
Although the End User License Agreement (EULA) for the Microsoft
Windows XP Professional and Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition refers in
vague terms to the possibility of a refund in the event of not
installing and not agreeing with the EULA terms, notebook providers in
Belgium refuse to offer such refunds and do not have known procedures
for so doing.
As a normal customer buying a single notebook, it is not possible in
any way to configure purchase options so as NOT to pay for a Windows
operating system at any of the following retailers: Dell, Packard
Bell, Photo Hall, MediaMarkt, HP, Sony, Toshiba, Acer, Fujitsu Siemens,
and Lenovo.
I therefore request that the Commission make a formal investigation
into the distortion of notebook computer market in Belgium and
elsewhere as well as to force local authorities to ensure that
consumers have the right to choose whether or not to buy a Windows
operating system when purchasing a notebook in Belgium and elsewhere
within the EU.
Yours sincerely,
----
David Ferguson
E-mail: da...@XXXXX.com
BearItAll
There had been mentioned somewhere that Dell were offering Linux on their
home machines now. But I just looked on their site and couldn't find it,
but also they don't offer a no-os option.
HP do offer Linux on their workstation machines, the prices compare well
with general desktop PCs, remember that workstations are usually server
class hardware so you get a machine that is likely to last a lot longer
than a standard PC, you must take carefull note of how expandable the
workstation is, and as these tend to advance with servers rather than
standard PCs, you are likely to be in advance in terms of busses and
internal connections, so not all off the shelf internal peripherals can be
fitted into all work stations. I couldn't see Linux offered on their home
computer or laptop ranges. They do offer laptops loaded with Suse, I can
find it mentioned on forums, but I couldn't see it mentioned on HP's web
site. Again there wasn't an option to select no-os either.
Offering machines with no operating system would be the better way for them
to go if they are worried about supporting Linux. Lets face it, some users
would buy a Linux machine because it is cheaper with no other thought going
into it, then be ringing the HP help desk saying "it doesn't look like my
computer at work and can't get my Sims2 to load, by the way I didn't get my
free garden gnome as mentioned on the box".
But, there are more and more independants that offer laptops and desk tops
preloaded with Linux, which I have no doubt you already found when looking
into this. A nice site where these can be configured to your taste, with a
choice of Linux distro's is http://www.shopcubed.com I mention that one
because a lad I know from a forum I visit got a machine from there and was
very happy with it, their prices compare very well with equivelent machines
with XP on them.
Roy Schestowitz
> dafydda...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> hi,
>> here's a formal complaint i made about not being able to buy a notebook
>> (in Belgium) without buying Windows. I use Suse and Ubuntu, so am being
>> forced to buy something I do not need.
Same situation here. Ubuntu and SuSE(SUSE). The two Dell machines were
purchased with a Windows licence, which is not being used. The third machine
was purchased with SUSE, but it is not a laptop.
>> I don't know of anybody who has received their Windows Refund in
>> Belgium (apparently someone once did from Dell in France, but they then
>> changed company policy).
>> David
That would be very exceptional. I believe that I heard read about it
somewhere, but most people will never bother. It also requires the customer
to become very political over an amount of money that does not justify the
amount of time invested/wasted.
The question should not be: would/should anyone who loves Linux be forced to
purchase Windows? I believe it is worth (re-)posing the question: is the
general public getting exposed to other operating systems and is permitted
to have a choice? In this case, the customer would benefit from a more
reliability, stabile, versatile, and inexpensive O/S. Then, of course, comes
the concern that the public is led into a circular trap. It pays a company
that in turn pays for another company to offer no choice. it's a deadlock
and an anti-competitive way of conduct. The Bush administration can turn a
blind eye (it has done worse things already), but why should globalised
companies embrace the same tricks overseas? And why should the customer be
silenced, owing to exposure (or lack thereof) to alternatives?
Dell is still too shy to offer Linux in prominent pages; Dell only offers
Linux on desktops and servers; The Inquirer had a blurb about Dell laptops
with Mandriva, in France. Nothint has yet been confirmed, nor done.
The no O/S option (Free DOS?), much like the Linux option, is not cheaper. In
fact, there was an outrage in Slashdot once it had been revealed that a
machine with no O/S was more expensive than that which had Windows
pre-installed.
> HP do offer Linux on their workstation machines, the prices compare well
> with general desktop PCs, remember that workstations are usually server
> class hardware so you get a machine that is likely to last a lot longer
> than a standard PC, you must take carefull note of how expandable the
> workstation is, and as these tend to advance with servers rather than
> standard PCs, you are likely to be in advance in terms of busses and
> internal connections, so not all off the shelf internal peripherals can be
> fitted into all work stations. I couldn't see Linux offered on their home
> computer or laptop ranges. They do offer laptops loaded with Suse, I can
> find it mentioned on forums, but I couldn't see it mentioned on HP's web
> site. Again there wasn't an option to select no-os either.
HP sells Linux in south America and it stocks a Ubuntu (maybe still Linspire)
laptops in South Africa. I am not too sure about France. These folks are
still reluctant to offer it globally. I can find a link to an interview
where all of this is mentioned. Here's what I have on HP and Linux:
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/b7hsCMALGZ2L15/HPs-Switzerland-Strategy-Playing-in-Unix-Linux-and-Windows-Markets.xhtml
http://opensource.sys-con.com/read/237070.htm
http://opensource.sys-con.com/read/237089_2.htm
The first among the three is by far the most relevant.
> Offering machines with no operating system would be the better way for them
> to go if they are worried about supporting Linux. Lets face it, some users
> would buy a Linux machine because it is cheaper with no other thought going
> into it, then be ringing the HP help desk saying "it doesn't look like my
> computer at work and can't get my Sims2 to load, by the way I didn't get my
> free garden gnome as mentioned on the box".
Good analogy actually. I suppose that in order to have a free O/S (such as
GNU/Linux) installed on all machines by default ("as standard") would take
some industrial initiative. Many OEM's are unwilling to embrace on O/S that
will cut their profits. it's almost as though they actually want to _screw_
the client('s pocket).
How Linux can compete with Windows Vista
,----[ Quote ]
| A friend who packages GNU/Linux for commercial sale says the constant need
| to sell more powerful hardware is a big reason why desktop and laptop
| vendors love Windows and aren't keen on Linux. (Server rooms, where
| efficiency counts, are obviously a whole different ball game.) But there
| is hope for Linux. Our friend believes the new Xgl 3-D Linux desktop
| will make Linux need just as much hardware updating as Windows Vista.
|
| [...]
`----
http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/05/25/1542211&from=rss
> But, there are more and more independants that offer laptops and desk tops
> preloaded with Linux, which I have no doubt you already found when looking
> into this. A nice site where these can be configured to your taste, with a
> choice of Linux distro's is http://www.shopcubed.com I mention that one
> because a lad I know from a forum I visit got a machine from there and was
> very happy with it, their prices compare very well with equivelent machines
> with XP on them.
There are more machines that are bound to have Linux pre-installed. This will
help Linux penetrate the market. Apart from mobile devices you have the
PlayStation 3, the new Palm OS (ACCESS/PalmSource Linux), Nokia's Maemo, the
OLPC ($100 laptop), among more (the new mobile platforms in particular).
When it's there before people's eyes, they will demand it. And the vendor
will supply to address demand.
Best wishes,
Roy
--
Roy S. Schestowitz | Useful fact: close elevator button = Express Mode
http://Schestowitz.com | SuSE GNU/Linux Ś PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
11:00am up 52 days 16:14, 13 users, load average: 3.21, 2.85, 2.23
http://iuron.com - help build a non-profit search engine
dafydda...@gmail.com
> with general desktop PCs, remember that workstations are usually server
> class hardware so you get a machine that is likely to last a lot longer
> fitted into all work stations. I couldn't see Linux offered on their home
> computer or laptop ranges. They do offer laptops loaded with Suse, I can
> find it mentioned on forums, but I couldn't see it mentioned on HP's web
> site. Again there wasn't an option to select no-os either.
Hi,
In Belgium, you cannot buy a NOTEBOOK as a normal customer without
PAYING for a Windows OS. I think Dell have a few options where they
allow you to pay for Windows and also get a Novell distribution. But
that's it.
I just want to go to a normal shop and buy a product without having to
pay for something I do not need.
Phil Da Lick!
> Hi,
> In Belgium, you cannot buy a NOTEBOOK as a normal customer without
> PAYING for a Windows OS. I think Dell have a few options where they
> allow you to pay for Windows and also get a Novell distribution. But
> that's it.
>
> I just want to go to a normal shop and buy a product without having to
> pay for something I do not need.
>
Good luck, but microsoft will just play the "OS-less systems breed
piracy" card when/if investigated. The cretins in power are either too
stupid to understand. or on the M$ payroll so you're onto a loser.
Roy Schestowitz
Ironically, nothing is being sold here. What the customer pays for is a
license to use a piece of software, rather than ownership of the software
(no "Freedom", as in speech, either).
To add insult to injury, the license then enables you (the customer) to
become subjected to spying on a daily basis. It's like everybody who buys a
computer is forced to be tagged; yes, just like an animal. Governments have
always fancied GPRS and RFID technologies. Look at the freedom (and Freedom)
of the Internet and how governments rob us from it. They take it all away.
Net neutrally says goodbye to freedom (as in free beer), whereas censorship
says goodbye to Freedom (as in free speech). Industy, much like country,
wants to be in control and stay in control.
Best wishes,
Roy
--
Roy S. Schestowitz | GPL'd Othello: http://othellomaster.com
http://Schestowitz.com | Open Prospects Ś PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Tasks: 162 total, 3 running, 152 sleeping, 0 stopped, 7 zombie
http://iuron.com - knowledge engine, not a search engine
arachnid
> dafydda...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hi,
>> In Belgium, you cannot buy a NOTEBOOK as a normal customer without
>> PAYING for a Windows OS. I think Dell have a few options where they
>> allow you to pay for Windows and also get a Novell distribution. But
>> that's it.
>>
>> I just want to go to a normal shop and buy a product without having to
>> pay for something I do not need.
>>
>>
> Good luck, but microsoft will just play the "OS-less systems breed
> piracy" card when/if investigated.
Between WPA and WGA they already have an effective technical solution to
the piracy problem. So, they can no longer use piracy as a
trumped-up excuse.
Besides, if selling computers without operating systems encourages piracy,
then doesn't it follow that computers must be sold with all of the most
popular applications installed (and the price of the computer upped by
about $1,000), because to sell systems bare of those applications is to
encourage their piracy?
And if it's a matter of "convenience for the customer", then WPA already
provides the means to give them a working Windows for the first thirty
days before it shuts down. Since they have to activate anyway, it only
takes a few extra moments to provide a credit-card number to purchase a
full license.
Tim Smith
dafydda...@gmail.com wrote:
> hi, here's a formal complaint i made about not being able to buy a
> notebook (in Belgium) without buying Windows. I use Suse and Ubuntu, so am
> being forced to buy something I do not need. I don't know of anybody who
> has received their Windows Refund in Belgium (apparently someone once did
> from Dell in France, but they then changed company policy).
EmpororLinux ships internationally, so you can easily buy a notebook in
Belgium without Windows.
Apple also sells in Belgium, and their notebooks come without Windows.
Here's their Belgium pages (one for each major language there):
<http://www.apple.com/befr/index.html>
<http://www.apple.com/benl/index.html>
--
--Tim Smith
7
Bravo!!!!!
<loud applause!!> <loud applause!!> <loud applause!!> ...
These types of formal complaints need to be seen through to
completition. More often than not, it should be the vendors
of hardware (the mom and pop shops) outflanked by bigger
corporations that receive illegal subsidies and refunds abroad
to undercut local competition distorting local markets is what
should be taking the fight back to micoshaft and their stooges.
Darth Chaos
BearItAll wrote:
> There had been mentioned somewhere that Dell were offering Linux on their
> home machines now. But I just looked on their site and couldn't find it,
> but also they don't offer a no-os option.
I think the HP online store sells Xandros.
Darth Chaos
Roy Schestowitz wrote:
> To add insult to injury, the license then enables you (the customer) to
> become subjected to spying on a daily basis. It's like everybody who buys a
> computer is forced to be tagged; yes, just like an animal. Governments have
> always fancied GPRS and RFID technologies. Look at the freedom (and Freedom)
> of the Internet and how governments rob us from it. They take it all away.
> Net neutrally says goodbye to freedom (as in free beer), whereas censorship
> says goodbye to Freedom (as in free speech). Industy, much like country,
> wants to be in control and stay in control.
Exactly. Why do you think Windows has all those security holes? So it
will be easier to spy on you...some security holes can allow hackers to
view the contents of your hard drive. And I saw some program called
Loki (saw it on ZDNet downloads, I think) which, when integrated with
Windows and Internet Explorer, turns your computer into a virtual GPS
device. I remember back in 1999, people were predicting that "within a
few years, all laptop computers will have built-in GPS chips". And now
there are laptops with built-in fingerprint scanners. I imagine within
the next 5 years some ISPs (probably big-name ISPs like AOL and
NetZero) will start to abandon the "username and password" format of
logging in in favor of a digitized fingerprint log-in.
I was watching one of Alex Jones' movies yesterday : "Police State 3 :
The Takeover". He mentioned that laws have been passed which declare
computer hackers to be terrorists. If that's the case, what would
happen if the government decided that Linux is a tool of hackers? Would
that turn Linux into a terrorist tool? Would that result in people who
use Linux being arrested for terrorism?
And here's another thing people might not be aware of : Many websites
are able to tell what operating system you're using. What if one day
Microsoft decides that the only computers allowed to access any of
their sites are computers running Windows?
I imagine the Microsoft corporate mindset is "If we can't have the
marketplace, nobody can". Would Microsoft deliberately attempt to
destroy the computer marketplace if they lose lots of marketshare to
Linux and/or Apple? Who knows?
Erik Funkenbusch
> Exactly. Why do you think Windows has all those security holes? So it
> will be easier to spy on you.
You know, this is such a convoluted scenario as to be laughable. Microsoft
controls the OS. If they want to spy on you, they can do it without
creating wide open security holes. The OS could simply send data anywhere
it wanted, and you'd likely never know if they wanted to conceal it
(piggybacking it on other packets, for instance).
I love how people come up with these complex justifications for why there
are security flaws, ignoring the most obvious reason. That software is
difficult to write securely. That's why you see streams of patches in open
source as well.
Da'Punk-A
-----
As you point out in your letter of complaint, this pre-installation of
Windows creates a very distorted image of OS usage. An extremely high
percentage of computers are sold with Windows on them, regardless of
what the customer actually uses. So Microsoft and its advocates can
quote statistics like "99 percent of computer users use Windows".
Those users who immediately reformatted their hard disks and installed
Linux are still counted as a Windows user.
I also believe there are plenty of users who use Windows simply because
it was on the computer when they bought it. If the PC had come with
Linux pre-installed, they'd use that. But of course, Microsoft uses
whatever means they have at their disposal to make sure that very few
machines come with anything other than Windows.
chrisv
>I love how people come up with these complex justifications for why there
>are security flaws, ignoring the most obvious reason.
The poor design of Micro$oft software, you mean. The "the masses want
to click on it and have it run, security be damned" philosophy.
Linonut
> You know, this is such a convoluted scenario as to be laughable. Microsoft
> controls the OS. If they want to spy on you, they can do it without
> creating wide open security holes. The OS could simply send data anywhere
> it wanted, and you'd likely never know if they wanted to conceal it
> (piggybacking it on other packets, for instance).
Based on what I've read, I doubt Microsoft would have the savvy to
conceal anything except from the average consumer.
> I love how people come up with these complex justifications for why there
> are security flaws, ignoring the most obvious reason. That software is
> difficult to write securely. That's why you see streams of patches in open
> source as well.
I agree here. I just went through a library adding Doxygen tags and
more thorough explanations, and that led me to find still more nits and
bugs. And that, after more than a year of pounding on a fairly small
library.
--
IEF630I BAD MACNAM
12.32.57 SYS2 R=IEF450I COLA LINONUT TROLL-ABEND S0C7 UBR549
-
see...@pacific.net.sg
> On 20 Jun 2006 00:14:37 -0700, Darth Chaos wrote:
>
>> Exactly. Why do you think Windows has all those security holes? So it
>> will be easier to spy on you.
>
Actually, a better question to ask would be why Windows still has so many
*unpatched* security holes.
> You know, this is such a convoluted scenario as to be laughable.
> Microsoft
> controls the OS. If they want to spy on you, they can do it without
> creating wide open security holes. The OS could simply send data anywhere
> it wanted, and you'd likely never know if they wanted to conceal it
> (piggybacking it on other packets, for instance).
>
Erik, I agree with your statement here 100%, but do you know what you are
setting yourself up for?
> I love how people come up with these complex justifications for why there
> are security flaws, ignoring the most obvious reason. That software is
> difficult to write securely. That's why you see streams of patches in
> open source as well.
...and a much lesser stream of patches from MS. Thanks for affirming the
adage that with many eyeballs, all bugs are shallow. And since not many
eyeballs are allowed to see MS code, the implication is that the bugs run
*really* deep.
You have just affirmed *two* of the most critical arguments for using an OS
like Linux over Windows.
Thanks and Regards,
ws
--
change to leews to mail
Sinister Midget
> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
>> On 20 Jun 2006 00:14:37 -0700, Darth Chaos wrote:
>>
>>> Exactly. Why do you think Windows has all those security holes? So it
>>> will be easier to spy on you.
>>
>
> Actually, a better question to ask would be why Windows still has so many
> *unpatched* security holes.
They only patch on 'Patch Tuseday' every month. By that time there are
so many that have to be sent out that they can't combine them all into
a single day. So the plan is to catch them up later.
The trouble is, 'later' is always that.
I'm expecting a 'Patch 2nd Week of the Month' to get things caught up
some later on down the road. That probably won't work either since the
volume of bugs keeps increasing. but it'll be an attempt.
--
If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.