Why Are There No 'Killer' Java Apps ?
The Ruling Class
With all the books and code written in Java, why are there no /killer/
applications?
Can you name one Java application that is a must have?
I run Suse 9.0 -- I don't see a single Java application on my OS.
I can't think of a Java application that I would actually want or need?
The Java Community just seems like a big, huge self-congratulatory group of
back slappers.
--
W '04 <:> Open
Roedy Green
<jab...@earthlink.net> wrote or quoted :
>Can you name one Java application that is a must have?
What applications MUST I have?
1. a word processor.
2. a text editor/ide
3. a browser
4. a mailreader
5. a newsreader
all those come in Java.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
James Coburn's Grey Helmet Hair
> On Sat, 08 May 2004 04:32:12 GMT, The Ruling Class
> <jab...@earthlink.net> wrote or quoted :
>
>>Can you name one Java application that is a must have?
>
> What applications MUST I have?
>
> 1. a word processor.
> 2. a text editor/ide
> 3. a browser
> 4. a mailreader
> 5. a newsreader
>
> all those come in Java.
That wasn't what I said. No doubt someone has written -- at some time -- an
entire office suite in Visual Basic 4.0.
But does anybody use a /java/ based office?
I don't. The only real Linux applications are written in gnu c/c++
The only real Windos applications are written in c/c++.
So what's left for java? A chart applet?
>
> --
> Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
> Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
> See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
--
W '04 <:> Open
Jeff Relf
You asked,
" Can you name one Java application that is a must have ? "
You make a great point,
The only Java app that I recall using was
the installation routine for my Encyclopedia Britannica.
And that really sucked ...
I had to edit it just to stop it from crashing.
Once installed, the Britannica code was running C++,
I know that because of the many error messages
that popped up showing C++ code.
The code truly sucked,
It wouldn't scale to my screen or resolution.
It was barely readable.
It had no context menus.
The Mac uses a single mouse button by default,
you could tell it was designed to run on a Mac,
but not on a PC.
Are there any good cross platform apps ?
I truly love Moz Firebird, but Gimp's UI is lame, I say.
Fortunately, thanks to the telephone assistance program
that that came with my food stamps and the bad economy,
I could trash the Britannica code
and replace it with Google.
Google is at least a million times better, at least.
( I went on-line at the start of 2003 )
Speaking of welfare, Three renters in my rooming house
have outstanding warrants.
One Renter hasn't paid any rent since
the start of this year
( lots of bounced checks, he's hiding, but his room
is waiting for a warrant to go through ).
One guy is planning to turn himself in
and do a few years time.
Another guy was bragging to me about getting
paid 8 dollars per hour painting someone's house.
He thought that was fantastic considering
that he has a felony and all.
... Until another housemate piped in to say
that he had 19 felonies
( and he's only in his late twenties ! )
and that he gets between 15 and 18 dollars per hour
to paint houses.
James Coburn's Grey Helmet Hair
> Hi Bailo, a.k.a. The Ruling Class,
First of all -- thank you for posting the most discontinous train of thought
in the history of Usenet. The beginning and end of this essay are true
dipoles of human reasoning and experience.
But let me address your points individually:
>
> You asked,
> " Can you name one Java application that is a must have ? "
>
> You make a great point,
> The only Java app that I recall using was
> the installation routine for my Encyclopedia Britannica.
> And that really sucked ...
> I had to edit it just to stop it from crashing.
See -- where is all this java code? WHERE IS IT? Why are all these people
reading these books? So they can write cell phone games that no one will
ever play -- or create browsers for a 1" x 1.5" screen -- which people will
use maybe once before throwing their cell/browser off the side of the
Bremerton ferry into the Puget Sound ?
> Once installed, the Britannica code was running C++,
> I know that because of the many error messages
> that popped up showing C++ code.
> The code truly sucked,
> It wouldn't scale to my screen or resolution.
> It was barely readable.
> It had no context menus.
> The Mac uses a single mouse button by default,
> you could tell it was designed to run on a Mac,
> but not on a PC.
My guess is that E.B. will go out of business in a few years. A compendium
of knowledge is no match for the web.
> Are there any good cross platform apps ?
> I truly love Moz Firebird, but Gimp's UI is lame, I say.
I am enjoying staying inside of the Suse/KDE environment. I really
appreciate orthogonality when it comes to the desktop environment. Using
the K's: Knode, Kmail, Konqueror is just so consistent in look and usage
that I now judge my external environment -- the Internet -- in terms of
it's being able to be KDE compatible.
> Fortunately, thanks to the telephone assistance program
> that that came with my food stamps and the bad economy,
> I could trash the Britannica code
> and replace it with Google.
> Google is at least a million times better, at least.
> ( I went on-line at the start of 2003 )
Are you saying that they give you $$$ to have a phone so that you can have
an Internet connection so that you can browse Google. And why not? You
know, the single most important thing for the poor after food, shelter and
clothing -- would be Internet access. Any schoolchild with drive can teach
himself anything from Kindergarten to college level with a web connection.
An Internet connection is worth 12 Head Start programs.
> Speaking of welfare, Three renters in my rooming house
> have outstanding warrants.
> One Renter hasn't paid any rent since
> the start of this year
How come? Doesn't your landlord care?
Or is it run by some absentee holding company in the Cayman Islands?
> ( lots of bounced checks, he's hiding, but his room
> is waiting for a warrant to go through ).
> One guy is planning to turn himself in
> and do a few years time.
Wow...classy place. Though probably not much different from my digs on
East Hill. This place is gang bangers central. Probably operates the
headquarters of the Puget Sound crack and prostitution trade.
> Another guy was bragging to me about getting
> paid 8 dollars per hour painting someone's house.
It's hard to hold those kind of conversations. Since both you and I know
better. I mean what do you do: tell him that there are people sitting on
their asses in corporations who make $80 or $800 dollars an hour? Or just
let them live in their dream world?
> He thought that was fantastic considering
> that he has a felony and all.
> ... Until another housemate piped in to say
> that he had 19 felonies
> ( and he's only in his late twenties ! )
Did you feel ashamed. Like did you think: I have no felonies and then try
to make up really /bad/ stuff that you did as a nine-year-old.
> and that he gets between 15 and 18 dollars per hour
> to paint houses.
So are you saying that the more felonies, the higher the hourly rate? Is it
some type of secret arrangement the government has made with crooks? The
more dangerous the criminal, the greater the need to keep them from crime
and hence a higher salary?
--
W '04 <:> Open
Hamilcar Barca
06:44:05 +0000), Roedy Green wrote:
> What applications MUST I have?
>
> 1. a word processor.
> 2. a text editor/ide
> 3. a browser
> 4. a mailreader
> 5. a newsreader
>
> all those come in Java.
All those come in Emacs+LaTeX.
Roedy Green
<jab...@earthlink.net> wrote or quoted :
>See -- where is all this java code? WHERE IS IT?
You are a prick to strip the comp.lang.java.advocacy group from the
followup That is what this thread is about you turkey.
Java is used for lots of things:
some of it is on my website. Check out
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/products.html
Some projects I have done include:
a multithread multiuser spreadsheet.
a pager reminder system.
a program to display factory floor data.
a program to display multiple streams of security cameras,
controllable with PTZ, multi user, multi camera, ability to roll
forward or back in time at any speed.
one I can't talk about much yet, but it involves sharing collections
of photographs.
an elaborate on-line classified ad system.
code for an electronic test instrument.
A system for the government to track the testing and licensing all
bartenders and waiters.
automatic generation of part of the hans.org website. See
http://hans.org/directory/directorycategories.html Everything under
that tree is statically generated by Java, refreshed daily.
The Replicator, used by pharmaceutical compare to efficiently
distribute an ever changing database of files to selected researchers.
A scheme for sending encrypted messages from applets through insecure
servers and on via email to the end user.
My own website uses Java assists including:
automatic per letter index generation, and master index generation
automatic compaction
Java macros generate much of the repetitive stuff.
automatic distribution via the Replicator.
direct jump to keyword from any page.
The CurrCon macro/Applet displays all prices in your local currency.
Set you PC Time from an atomic clock.
Check Mime Types a server is sending.
coming up is a system to monitor thermometers and thermostats in
apartment buildings.
coming up a system to track donations for a Swedish charity
interfacing with their electronic funds transfer systems.
Jeff Relf
Re: Books about Java.
You commented,
" Why are all these people reading these books ?
So they can write cell phone games that
no one will ever play --
or create browsers for a 1" x 1.5" screen --
which people will use maybe once before throwing
their cell/browser off the side of the Bremerton ferry
into the Puget Sound ? "
I love hand-helds ... But the OS'es and scripts
that they have come and go like the wind.
Linux and GCC on a hand-held would be a welcome change.
I'd love to see that.
Re: GTK.
You commented,
" I am enjoying staying inside of the Suse/KDE environment.
I really appreciate orthogonality when it comes to
the desktop environment.
Using the K's: Knode, Kmail, Konqueror
is just so consistent in look and usage that
I now judge my external environment -- the Internet --
in terms of it's being able to be KDE compatible ".
I've never tried Konqueror,
but I know that I loath your KNode.
KNode doesn't just spit out broken links,
it actually mangles them beyond repair ...
What could possibly be more retarded ? !
Then KNode sets up random Follow-up-to's
which my current browser, 40tude dialog,
dutifully obeys ... U-u-u-u-ugh ! I hate that.
Thank God that I'll soon be replacing Dialog
with my own code.
( I'm taking my time to write it, so it may be a while,
I'm such a lazy shit )
Re: My fellow renters.
Yea, Two felons talking to each other was a bit weird.
They lapsed into this this language that made me
feel like a real outsider.
I'm learning some of the terms though.
One guy was 24 but looked 18,
the other was probably about 27.
The 27 year old got paid more than twice the 24 year old
for painting houses.
I'm sure that's just due to having been around more.
Re: The 24 year old who was bragging about his low pay job.
You commented,
" It's hard to hold those kind of conversations.
Since both you and I know better. I mean what do you do:
tell him that there are people sitting on their asses
in corporations who make $80 or $800 dollars an hour ?
Or just let them live in their dream world ? "
He was amazed that he was getting paid for the time
that he spent on cigarette breaks ...
I just reveled in the total innocence of it all.
He has a lot of underage friends,
including some Very cute girls that he fucks.
( One girl stole 250 dollars from him,
I think she drugged him too ... Date rape ? )
I should just keep my mouth shut, he'll learn soon enough.
Re: How my landlord keeps getting ripped off.
You asked,
" How come ? Doesn't your landlord care ?
Or is it run by some absentee holding company
in the Cayman Islands ? "
No, I know Lina, my landlord, very well.
She's obviously a big push over.
People like that should not become landlords.
My dad was the same way when he was a landlord.
It wasn't too many years ago that Lina was
a fresh immigrant from Malaysia cleaning houses.
Now she owns something like 25 houses and apartments.
All here in the U-District ( Seattle ).
You asked,
" Are you saying that they give you $$$
to have a phone so that you can have
an Internet connection so that you can browse Google ? "
No, Telephone assistance makes my phone bill 10 dollars
instead of 23.
NoCharge.COM is a free dial-up ISP with unlimited
hours and no special software or ads.
It's a very fine service, it's totally free,
and I know lots of people that use it.
But the 50 bucks that I pay every 6 moths
allows me to connect to something other than port 80,
e.g. 119. That's their premium service, NCPlus.NET .
Jeff Relf
You told Bailo, a.k.a. James Coburn's Grey Helmet Hair,
" You are a prick to strip the comp.lang.java.advocacy group
from the followup That is what this thread is about
you turkey ".
Amen ... I hate that ...
Bailo's KNode does that unless you edit the field.
And he's too lazy to do it every time.
I noticed that you're using Agent to post ...
Why aren't you using some Java app instead ?
James Coburn's Grey Helmet Hair
> I love hand-helds ... But the OS'es and scripts
> that they have come and go like the wind.
> Linux and GCC on a hand-held would be a welcome change.
> I'd love to see that.
It's not so much the OSes and scripts, but the handhelds themselves.
It's like for the past 10 years, because the technology to miniaturize
computers and turn them into tablet PCs and watch PCs and Cell Phone PDAs
became available, the presumption was that people would want to carry a GUI
around with them.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
The classic desktop, on a desk with the user sitting at a chair, has proven
to be the ideal environment. Users would rather have the *public pay
phone* approach rather than the walkie-talkie approach. That is, they want
highly available desktops -- like in libraries and public areas. They
don't want to lug expensive electronics around with them or use postage
stamp size screens.
> I've never tried Konqueror,
> but I know that I loath your KNode.
> KNode doesn't just spit out broken links,
They don't appear broken -- to another KNode user.
See -- it's that orthagonality thing again...
> Then KNode sets up random Follow-up-to's
I think it just sets the follow up based on the newsgroup in which I make my
reply.
> including some Very cute girls that he fucks.
> ( One girl stole 250 dollars from him,
> I think she drugged him too ... Date rape ? )
That sounds more like pay for play to me.
> It wasn't too many years ago that Lina was
> a fresh immigrant from Malaysia cleaning houses.
I'm surprised. Usually those types are very harsh when it comes to money
because they know how hard it is to earn a buck. On the other hand, if
you're going to hit someone up for rent, a convicted felon ( or rather an
unconvicted/ felon in this case ) would not be my first choice...
> It's a very fine service, it's totally free,
> and I know lots of people that use it.
> But the 50 bucks that I pay every 6 moths
> allows me to connect to something other than port 80,
> e.g. 119. That's their premium service, NCPlus.NET .
I'm surprised you don't have a UW dial in account with net access since you
are somewhat of a student there aren't you?
--
W '04 <:> Open
Matt Parker
OpenOffice
LimeWire
NetBeans
Poseidon
Four apps written in Java that I couldn't live without right there.
Matt
--
Not so interesting...
http://www.mpcontracting.co.uk
Peter Köhlmann
> The Ruling Class wrote:
>
>>
>> With all the books and code written in Java, why are there no /killer/
>> applications?
>>
>> Can you name one Java application that is a must have?
>>
>> I run Suse 9.0 -- I don't see a single Java application on my OS.
>>
>> I can't think of a Java application that I would actually want or need?
>>
>> The Java Community just seems like a big, huge self-congratulatory group
>> of back slappers.
>>
>
> OpenOffice
Open Office is not written in java
--
Clippy: "It looks like you're trying to sue us,
would you like me to delete all of your files?"
Matt Parker
> Matt Parker wrote:
>
>> The Ruling Class wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> With all the books and code written in Java, why are there no /killer/
>>> applications?
>>>
>>> Can you name one Java application that is a must have?
>>>
>>> I run Suse 9.0 -- I don't see a single Java application on my OS.
>>>
>>> I can't think of a Java application that I would actually want or need?
>>>
>>> The Java Community just seems like a big, huge self-congratulatory group
>>> of back slappers.
>>>
>>
>> OpenOffice
>
> Open Office is not written in java
>
Not all of it, but large chunks are.
Matt Parker
There's also ThinkFree Office which my other half uses on her Mac.
Peter Köhlmann
None of it. It is written in C++
--
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
T. Relyea
Moneydance is a must have for me. It's a cross platform/java personal finance
package.
Todd
Donn Miller
You mentioned Eclipse. That's written in Java, right?
Leach
>
> With all the books and code written in Java, why are there no /killer/
> applications?
Not in the consumer space maybe, but a lot of
off the shelf stuff for wallstreet is written in
java now. Including desktop tiers.
Matt Parker's Dog-Catcher
> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>
>> Matt Parker wrote:
>>
>>> The Ruling Class wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> With all the books and code written in Java, why are there no
>>>> /killer/ applications?
>>>>
>>>> Can you name one Java application that is a must have?
>>>
>>
>> Open Office is not written in java
>>
>
> Not all of it, but large chunks are.
BWAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA!! What a stupid moron. The source
is right there in the open for you to see: C++. Ever notice how
OpenOffice runs without having J2RE installed?
Your reply precludes you from contributing any further as a
Java expert.
>
> Matt
> --
> Not so interesting...
> http://www.mpcontracting.co.uk
From your link:
"Matt Parker Software Consulting Ltd.
Experts in Java development and website design"
Given your absurdly stupid assertion about OpenOffice
above, you must either be a starving consultant or you
have very stupid, ignorant mom & pop type customers
who wouldn't know a computer from a Smith Corona.
asj
> On Sat, 08 May 2004 07:31:37 GMT, James Coburn's Grey Helmet Hair
> <jab...@earthlink.net> wrote or quoted :
>
> >See -- where is all this java code? WHERE IS IT?
>
> You are a prick to strip the comp.lang.java.advocacy group from the
> followup That is what this thread is about you turkey.
>
> Java is used for lots of things:
> some of it is on my website. Check out
> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/products.html
>
hey roedy:
why stoop to his level...java will be running on 90% or more of
computing devices before long and this guy will still be
trolling...e.g. does he use a cellphone? java is most likely running
the sim card, if not apps on the phone.
Matt Parker
Panama Red
> On Sat, 08 May 2004 04:32:12 GMT, The Ruling Class
><jab...@earthlink.net> wrote or quoted :
>
>>Can you name one Java application that is a must have?
>
> What applications MUST I have?
>
> 1. a word processor.
> 2. a text editor/ide
> 3. a browser
> 4. a mailreader
> 5. a newsreader
>
> all those come in Java.
I hope your logic isnt always that flawed.
--
Start engaging your brain and stop imitating Stanley Laurel and then
people may help you. But it's not funny to see a real live person say
"it doesn't work" when pulling at their nose instead of the "fixme
handle"
Panama Red
Thats only because they can outsource third world java programmers to
do it, not because of any technological benefit.
--
Your post makes me want to puke all over you for not troubling to find
out what you are talking about but instead hallucinate wildly based on
observations which you didn't trouble to check on! It's a sannoying
as seeing people say "white bread killed my neighbours dog".
Panama Red
> The Ruling Class wrote:
>
>>
>> With all the books and code written in Java, why are there no /killer/
>> applications?
>>
>> Can you name one Java application that is a must have?
>>
>> I run Suse 9.0 -- I don't see a single Java application on my OS.
>>
>> I can't think of a Java application that I would actually want or need?
>>
>> The Java Community just seems like a big, huge self-congratulatory group
>> of back slappers.
>>
>
> OpenOffice
> LimeWire
Hasnt installed on any of my last 4 Linux machines, a true java piece
of shit.
> NetBeans
?
> Poseidon
?
Matt Parker
> I believe it was Matt Parker who said...
>> The Ruling Class wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> With all the books and code written in Java, why are there no /killer/
>>> applications?
>>>
>>> Can you name one Java application that is a must have?
>>>
>>> I run Suse 9.0 -- I don't see a single Java application on my OS.
>>>
>>> I can't think of a Java application that I would actually want or need?
>>>
>>> The Java Community just seems like a big, huge self-congratulatory group
>>> of back slappers.
>>>
>>
>> OpenOffice
>
> Slow and cumbersome...and I dont even think it is java.
>
>> LimeWire
>
> Hasnt installed on any of my last 4 Linux machines, a true java piece
> of shit.
>
>> NetBeans
>
> ?
>
>> Poseidon
>
> ?
>
http://www.mpcontracting.co.uk/images/desktop2.png
This shows LimeWire up and running happily, took me about 2 minutes to
install it. Shows your incomptetence. Also show NetBeans and Poseidon.
James Coburn's Grey Helmet Hair
> http://www.mpcontracting.co.uk/images/desktop2.png
>
> This shows LimeWire up and running happily, took me about 2 minutes to
> install it. Shows your incomptetence. Also show NetBeans and Poseidon.
I followed your advice and here's LW running on my machine:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jabailo/lw.png
LimeWire has one of the best installers for Linux I have ever seen.
It actually ASKS me where I want it to be installed ( UnrealTournament 2004
is like that too ).
LimeWire is a great OpenSource application.
I think their search technology is superior to Google and is the real future
of search ( p2p ).
--
W '04 <:> Open
Matt Parker
> Matt Parker wrote:
>
>
>> http://www.mpcontracting.co.uk/images/desktop2.png
>>
>> This shows LimeWire up and running happily, took me about 2 minutes to
>> install it. Shows your incomptetence. Also show NetBeans and Poseidon.
>
> I followed your advice and here's LW running on my machine:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~jabailo/lw.png
>
> LimeWire has one of the best installers for Linux I have ever seen.
>
That'll be InstallAnywhere by ZeroG - http://www.zerog.com/products_ia.html
Another great Java app that is used by many companies to install all kinds
of software, not just other Java apps.
Kirk Morris
ages:
Amen.
--
"To use Emacs is to practice Zen.
Every command is a koan.
Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.
You discover truth everytime you use it." --re...@lion.austin.ibm.com
Hamilcar Barca
10:47:06 +0100), Matt Parker wrote:
> OpenOffice
> [...]
>
> Four apps written in Java that I couldn't live without right there.
OpenOffice isn't written in Java.
Panama Red
>>
>
>
> This shows LimeWire up and running happily, took me about 2 minutes to
> install it. Shows your incomptetence. Also show NetBeans and Poseidon.
This shows LimeWire choking again... this time on Mandrake 10
Community edition, 2.6 kernel :
[root@localhost root]# /mnt/ralph/apps/LinuxProgs/LimeWireLinux.bin
Preparing to install...
Extracting the installation resources from the installer archive...
Configuring the installer for this system's environment...
Launching installer...
Invocation of this Java Application has caused an
InvocationTargetException. This application will now exit. (LAX)
Stack Trace:
java.lang.IllegalAccessError:
com/zerog/ia/installer/util/ClassInfoManager$InfoPiece.<init>
at com.zerog.ia.installer.Main.a (source file unknown)
at com.zerog.ia.installer.Main.main (source file unknown)
at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke0 (Method.java)
at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke (Method.java:255)
at com.zerog.lax.LAX.launch (source file unknown)
at com.zerog.lax.LAX.main (source file unknown)
This Java Application has encountered an unexpected error and will now
exit. (LAX)
Stack Trace:
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: javax/swing/JDialog
at com.zerog.lax.LAX.launch (source file unknown)
at com.zerog.lax.LAX.main (source file unknown)
--
Being happy makes me unhappy. It gets rid of all goals.
Leach
> I believe it was Leach who said...
>> On Sat, 08 May 2004, The Ruling Class <jab...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> With all the books and code written in Java, why are there no /killer/
>>> applications?
>>
>> Not in the consumer space maybe, but a lot of
>> off the shelf stuff for wallstreet is written in
>> java now. Including desktop tiers.
>
> Thats only because they can outsource third world java programmers to
> do it, not because of any technological benefit.
That's an illogical leap. Why wouldn't it be true in general for
all ISV's, not just those serving the Wallstreet market?
I think that it's due to the demanding expectations of the
client base. If they come and say that an enterprise trading
system's backend runs only on Windows, they don't make the
short list as often. The easiest path to running on different
systems with the same code base is Java, and that shows up in
these kinds of systems.
Look at http://www.calypso.com/technology/index.html for example.
asj
> The Java Community just seems like a big, huge self-congratulatory group of
> back slappers.
yep, i just LOVE the fact java is everywhere! java on the desktop
definitely suffers (although in another post i point out that it seems
like it will be expriencing a rennaisance due to increasing diversity
in the desktop area), but java is everywhere else.
in fact, the java platform right now is probably the number one app
development client in the world, surpassing windows, since it is in
several hundred million cellphones, several hundred million smartcards
and embedded devices, in millions of desktops, and running in the
great majority of large enterprise servers, even IBM mainframes.
several nations in europe and asia have standardized and distributed
hundreds of millions of javacards to their citizens, which are used as
a health info cards and id cards...the usa army itself is distributing
tens of thousands of javacards to its personnel as a secure method of
id.
do you use a cellphone? then your SIM card is probably running Java,
and the phone itself may be running java apps. Do you watch cable?
Java is coming to your legacy cable boxes via time warner, cablevision
and all the other biggies in a year or so. do you buy stuff online?
eBay's backend is completely Java, and so are most of the very large
enterprises on the web.
As examples of enterprise use, just looking at 2 J2EE app servers:
BEA WEblogic's J2EE app server is used by
30,000 customers worldwide, while IBM Websphere provides integration
to:
65% of the Fortune 500 companies
80% of the top US healthcare companies
75% of commercial banks worldwide
90% of the top commercial banks in the US
67% of the world's largest banks use IBM messaging servers
15 of the top Wall Street brokerage firms
7 of the 8 largest US telecommunications companies
The open source world is heavily using Java. In fact, java is the most
used language in sourceforge.net! apache is a strong promoter of Java
in its jakarta projects, and is even coming out with its own J2EE app
server! of course, JBOSS has been there for awhile now. Plus,
AS to the desktop, here's my take on it:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=2bfb3b97.0404230717.3f26bdbb%40posting.google.com
asj
> The Java Community just seems like a big, huge self-congratulatory group of
> back slappers.
i am always astounded by how narrow people's focus are....one of the
greatest paradigm shifts in computing is happening right before their
eyes, and they keep focusing on the desktop ;-)
i must admit though, it would help if java had become stronger in the
desktop (which for a long time was a very antagonistic windows
monoculture), but the increasing diversity in this space means it is
only a
matter of time before it becomes very amenable to java as well....
in the end, diversity almost always increases java usage, and with
linux making some inroads in the desktop enterprise space (via sun's
java desktop and perhaps others), and macs embracing java as well,
then it just becomes a matter of time.
let the clueless close their eyes...i'm a java developer and linux/mac
os x/windows user, proud of it, and i'm into making money and coding
for the
largest number of possible devices. and the money, and cool projects,
for a long while will generally be in java. plus, i'm not on the
microsoft treadmill, doomed to be forced into the next big thing every
half decade or so - i KNOW i'll be using the same platform to get my
work done 5, 10, 15 years from today!
it's so GOOOD to be alive at this time! heheheh....
Roedy Green
:
>hey roedy:
>
>why stoop to his level...java will be running on 90% or more of
>computing devices before long and this guy will still be
>trolling...e.g. does he use a cellphone? java is most likely running
>the sim card, if not apps on the phone.
I get annoyed when people spread lies. I answer so that people will
know they are lies, and will know how to defend against them. You
don't do it simply by calling the guy a troll. You have to show the
audience why he is a troll.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
Roedy Green
<jab...@earthlink.net> wrote or quoted :
> They
>don't want to lug expensive electronics around with them or use postage
>stamp size screens.
Where are we headed? Every surface is covered in a display in eye-res.
You can talk to it.
When you are not computing with it, it focuses on being decorative.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/eyeres.html
Roedy Green
:
>it would help if java had become stronger in the
>deskto
You can develop on the desktop and port easily to smaller devices.
you can create variants of the same app where the work is split
between server and client differently, but the same code.
Here is a way to reuse work on the tiniest to the largest machines.
We got to run the Integer Spreadsheet (a multithread spreadsheet) on a
machine with 256 cpus. No coding changes needed from my old 256 MHz
pentium.
asj
greatest paradigm shifts in computing is happening right before their
eyes, and they keep focusing on the desktop ;-)
i must admit though, it would help if java had become stronger in the
desktop, but the increasing diversity in this space means it is only a
matter of time before it becomes very amenable to java as well....
in the end, diversity almost always increases java usage, and with
linux making some inroads in the desktop enterprise space (via sun's
java desktop and perhaps others), and macs embracing java as well,
then it just becomes a matter of time.
let the clueless close their eyes...i'm a java developer and linux
Omar Sharif's Black Mustache
Yes, but soon mono will take over the desktop and web applications and java
will be seen as a primitive ancestor to a real OOP -- kind of like the
Australopithicus is to Homo Sapiens.
--
W '04 <:> Open
Hamilcar Barca
2004 20:01:35 -0700), asj wrote:
> i am always astounded by how narrow people's focus are....one of the
> greatest paradigm shifts in computing is happening right before their
> eyes [...]
Java is not part of any paradigm shift. It's just a programming language,
a few environments, and some supporting classes, ostensibly under the
control of a single company. There are many programming languages and
their popularity waxes and wanes; it's happened before and it will happen
again.
If you want see a paradigm shift, watch Free Software, where such a shift
may (or may not) be happening.
> [..] and they keep focusing on the desktop ;-)
The death of the desktop computer has been predicted for well over a
decade. It hasn't happened and it isn't happening.
> it's so GOOOD to be alive at this time!
It's good to be young and enthusiastic but don't get too carried away.
--
"When we speak of Free Software, we are referring to freedom, not price."
-- Richard M. Stallman
James A. Robertson
>i am always astounded by how narrow people's focus are....one of the
>greatest paradigm shifts in computing is happening right before their
>eyes, and they keep focusing on the desktop ;-)
>
Yeah, I see that. When Java adds in the productivity that existed in
things like Smalltalk and Lisp - 20 and 30 years ago - let us know.
I'm amazed that so many developers put up with such low levels of
productivity.
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=3261383028
>i must admit though, it would help if java had become stronger in the
>desktop, but the increasing diversity in this space means it is only a
>matter of time before it becomes very amenable to java as well....
>
>in the end, diversity almost always increases java usage, and with
>linux making some inroads in the desktop enterprise space (via sun's
>java desktop and perhaps others), and macs embracing java as well,
>then it just becomes a matter of time.
>
>let the clueless close their eyes...i'm a java developer and linux
>user, proud of it, and i'm into making money and coding for the
>largest number of possible devices. and the money, and cool projects,
>for a long while will generally be in java. plus, i'm not on the
>microsoft treadmill, doomed to be forced into the next big thing every
>half decade or so - i KNOW i'll be using the same platform to get my
>work done 5, 10, 15 years from today!
>
>it's so GOOOD to be alive at this time! heheheh....
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
Mark Thornton
>
> Yeah, I see that. When Java adds in the productivity that existed in
> things like Smalltalk and Lisp - 20 and 30 years ago - let us know.
>
> I'm amazed that so many developers put up with such low levels of
> productivity.
>
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=3261383028
>
You aren't really amazed, you know as well as I do that developers don't
get an unrestricted choice of language or environment to use. All too
many are restricted to systems bearing the "Microsoft seal of approval".
At the time we chose Java, Java had (or appeared to have) that approval
from Redmond. At that time (~1998) Smalltalk was all but invisible,
nothing but a half forgotten memory (or worse).
Mark Thornton
asj
>
> Yes, but soon mono will take over the desktop and web applications and java
> will be seen as a primitive ancestor to a real OOP -- kind of like the
> Australopithicus is to Homo Sapiens.
ROTFLOL! just another example of the clueless nature of some
people...mono has microsoft patents hanging over it like some
inevitable sword...it's SCO all over again, but this time with a much
larger foe at the other end - the fact some linux people can't see
this is indicative of how far from reality your desktop ambitions
are...plus, there's no indications at all mono is ever going to make
any leap to any of the larger linux distros, and especially the sun
java desktop, which is looking to be the #1 lnux desktop in
enterprises - and thus, everywhere since linux has about as much
chance of garnering consumer market share right now as a man spitting
upwards has of hitting the moon.
it's a trojan horse in your midst and the fact many can't see that and
are willingly going towards a big disaster is even funnier...oh well,
go do mono then and leave the real work to others that are not
encumbered by legal problems.
Peter Köhlmann
You waste perfectly good words on an utter idiot: JBailo
And no, he is not a linux advocate. He is a stupid poser
--
Only two things are infinite,
the Universe and Stupidity.
And I'm not quite sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein
asj
> Java is not part of any paradigm shift. It's just a programming language,
> a few environments, and some supporting classes, ostensibly under the
> control of a single company. There are many programming languages and
> their popularity waxes and wanes; it's happened before and it will happen
> again.
i was referring to the focus with the desktop, when more and more new
computing devices like smartphones, handhelds, smartcards and other
pervasive computing devices are gaining ground.
Tim Tyler
> On 8 May 2004 20:01:35 -0700, a...@blueboard.com (asj) wrote:
> >i am always astounded by how narrow people's focus are....one of the
> >greatest paradigm shifts in computing is happening right before their
> >eyes, and they keep focusing on the desktop ;-)
>
> Yeah, I see that. When Java adds in the productivity that existed in
> things like Smalltalk and Lisp - 20 and 30 years ago - let us know.
>
> I'm amazed that so many developers put up with such low levels of
> productivity.
>
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=3261383028
Java probably has high productivity about now.
The reason being that many things are already written for you - and
in many cases the task is one of fitting together existing pieces.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
asj
> On 8 May 2004 20:01:35 -0700, a...@blueboard.com (asj) wrote:
>
> >i am always astounded by how narrow people's focus are....one of the
> >greatest paradigm shifts in computing is happening right before their
> >eyes, and they keep focusing on the desktop ;-)
> >
>
> Yeah, I see that. When Java adds in the productivity that existed in
> things like Smalltalk and Lisp - 20 and 30 years ago - let us know.
>
> I'm amazed that so many developers put up with such low levels of
> productivity.
i'll mention again that the paradigm shift i was refering to is about
the relatively growing importance of non-desktop computing devices in
the consumer marketplace - things like smartphones, PDAs, smartcards,
etc.
with regards to productivity: (1) a good developer will always be more
productive than a bad one no matter the language used, and btw i'm
still not convinced smalltalk is any more productive - perhaps the
release of groovy will allow an even faster learning and development
time for non hardcore java programmers later; (2) there's more to
choosing a language or platform than productivity. maintainability is
one, ease of traning or availability of developer resources is
another; (3) political approval from higher ups is frequently more
important than "productivity"....
Matt Parker
> I believe it was Matt Parker who said...
>>>
>>
>> http://www.mpcontracting.co.uk/images/desktop2.png
>>
>> This shows LimeWire up and running happily, took me about 2 minutes to
>> install it. Shows your incomptetence. Also show NetBeans and Poseidon.
>
> This shows LimeWire choking again... this time on Mandrake 10
> Community edition, 2.6 kernel :
> Stack Trace:
> java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: javax/swing/JDialog
> at com.zerog.lax.LAX.launch (source file unknown)
> at com.zerog.lax.LAX.main (source file unknown)
>
You haven't installed Java you idiot!!!
You need to at least have a Java 2 compatible JVM to run LimeWire. Go
download from Sun.
Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
> Matt Parker's Dog-Catcher wrote:
>
>> Matt Parker wrote:
>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>>
>>>> Matt Parker wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The Ruling Class wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With all the books and code written in Java, why are there no
>>>>>> /killer/ applications?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Open Office is not written in java
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not all of it, but large chunks are.
>>
>> BWAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA!! What a stupid moron. The source
>> is right there in the open for you to see: C++. Ever notice how
>> OpenOffice runs without having J2RE installed?
>>
>> Your reply precludes you from contributing any further as a
>> Java expert.>> From your link:
>>
>> "Matt Parker Software Consulting Ltd.
>> Experts in Java development and website design"
>>
>> Given your absurdly stupid assertion about OpenOffice
>> above, you must either be a starving consultant or you
>> have very stupid, ignorant mom & pop type customers
>> who wouldn't know a computer from a Smith Corona.
>
> http://api.openoffice.org/docs/java/ref/overview-summary.html
>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Read closer, loser:
http://udk.openoffice.org/java/man
Here's more info on the interface API binding:
http://udk.openoffice.org/common/man/uno.html
Since you are a "Java expert", I'm assuming you understand
what the above is.
There is no Java in OpenOffice, moron.
Are you hoping these newsgroups are filled with non-developers,
the very same dimwit-types you call "customers"?
> --
> Prick...
>
Nice sig. Tough luck on your consulting business, loser.
Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
You're talking to a brick wall. Matt is a "Java expert" with a
consulting business from which he makes his living dumb
schmucks. He believes that this link he posted in his reply
to me earlier is proof Office is written in Java:
http://api.openoffice.org/docs/java/ref/overview-summary.html
Matt believes these newsgroups are populated by mostly
non-developers and, therefore, had hoped we would not
have been able to point him to these:
http://udk.openoffice.org/java/man
http://udk.openoffice.org/common/man/uno.html
Matt does not seem to understand what API bindings
are. He also believes that the ability to have extensions
written in other languages implies the main program
incorporates those other languages natively. Matt
also does not realize that OpenOffice does not require
J2RE installed. Matt is also blind and is not able to
read the OpenOffice source code freely available
for download.
Roedy Green's Piper
> On 8 May 2004 20:07:31 -0700, a...@blueboard.com (asj) wrote or quoted
>>
>
>> it would help if java had become stronger in the
>> deskto
>
> You can develop on the desktop and port easily to smaller devices.
>
> you can create variants of the same app where the work is split
> between server and client differently, but the same code.
>
> Here is a way to reuse work on the tiniest to the largest machines.
>
> We got to run the Integer Spreadsheet (a multithread spreadsheet) on a
> machine with 256 cpus. No coding changes needed from my old 256 MHz
> pentium.
Right. Just hope and pray that the Java runtime environment doesn't
have any hidden doozies because your "portable" java code application
could be fried.
Any which way you slice it, Java is a "scripting" language that runs
in its own virtual machine, written in C/C++. It is no different conceptually
from Perl, or any other scripting language, with bindings to the OS and
GUI extensions.
Although it's nice to have a portable script as powerful as Java, it is not
a substitute for C/C++.
Some will argue, "gjc will compile and link Java into native machine code!"
If you compile and link Java with gjc, *it is no longer Java*.
Roedy Green's Piper
> On 8 May 2004 20:07:31 -0700, a...@blueboard.com (asj) wrote or quoted
>>
>
>> it would help if java had become stronger in the
>> deskto
>
> You can develop on the desktop and port easily to smaller devices.
>
> you can create variants of the same app where the work is split
> between server and client differently, but the same code.
>
> Here is a way to reuse work on the tiniest to the largest machines.
>
> We got to run the Integer Spreadsheet (a multithread spreadsheet) on a
> machine with 256 cpus. No coding changes needed from my old 256 MHz
> pentium.
Right. Just hope and pray that the Java runtime environment doesn't
Panama Red
[root@localhost root]# which java
/usr/share/j2sdk1.4.2/bin/java
[root@localhost root]# java -showversion
java version "1.4.2"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.4.2-b28)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.4.2-b28, mixed mode)
Java is installed. I downloaded it from Sun and it installed without
problem. It is in my path and works fine for simple programs I have
tried it with.
The LimeWire.bin was downloaded and checksummed multiple times and on
multiple machines. Ive seen this problem on at least 3 distrobutions on
at least two machines with nothing common between them... it is just a
piece of shit, period.
Ive had the same problem a week ago on this group trying to get a
decent BitTorrent client, yet the the Java ones all sucked ass and
wouldnt even install.
--
No, you are a retarded idiot, not a "middle advanced student of linux".
Try getting that straight and removing your delusions, and you may be
able to make some progress in a forward direction for a change.
Matt Parker
> Nice sig. Tough luck on your consulting business, loser.
My business is going fine, thank you for your concern. Two recent clients
have been the UK government and the 4th largest bank in the world. I make
more than enough money to live and have regular monthly breaks in between
contracts to indulge in travelling the world.
Better than flipping burgers which is undoubtedly your occupation...
Matt Parker
> Matt does not seem to understand what API bindings
> are. He also believes that the ability to have extensions
> written in other languages implies the main program
> incorporates those other languages natively. Matt
> also does not realize that OpenOffice does not require
> J2RE installed. Matt is also blind and is not able to
> read the OpenOffice source code freely available
> for download.
And you are a coward unwilling to show us your real name and business. I'm
quite willing to step up to the plate to let on who I am. Who are you? Are
you scared? Show me your website. Or are you too much of a coward? Come on,
I dare you. Show the world who you really are.
Roedy Green
<mattNOD...@dog.catcher> wrote or quoted :
>There is no Java in OpenOffice, moron.
If we were talking face to face, would you use the vocabulary of a
five year old? Surely not.
Roedy Green
<mattNOD...@dog.catcher> wrote or quoted :
>. He believes that this link he posted in his reply
>to me earlier is proof Office is written in Java:
Lot's of people thought Star Office was written in Java partly because
it came from Sun, and because many people were passing around the
incorrect information that it was.
Java detractors spread the rumour that Star Office's deficiencies were
caused by it being written in Java.
To think it was written in Java is a reasonable mistake. There is no
way you can tell nowadays with static native compilation.
Why are you here, to place childish one upmanship games or to learn
about Java?
Roedy Green
<mattNOD...@dog.catcher> wrote or quoted :
>You're talking to a brick wall. Matt is a "Java expert" with a
>consulting business from which he makes his living dumb
>schmucks.
see http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame11.html
Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
> On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:29:08 -0600, Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
> <mattNOD...@dog.catcher> wrote or quoted :
>
>> . He believes that this link he posted in his reply
>> to me earlier is proof Office is written in Java:
>
[...]
>
> To think it was written in Java is a reasonable mistake.
I will refrain from laughing so that I may lead you to the next
line in your reply.
> There is no way you can tell nowadays with static native
> compilation.
Static native compilation = machine code, not Java. Any language
*compiled* is translated to machine code. The original language
used to create the machine code is irrelevant. Anyone telling you
that compiled & linked code written in one language is faster than
code written in another language without explaining why is out to
lunch. Exceptions to this rule have to do with optimization of the
respective compilers but differences in performance of native
code can differ from one C/C++ compiler to another, let alone
between different languages.
So, again, I repeat: native binaries are not Java. If Java is compiled
and linked into native binary code, it is no longer Java.
>
> Why are you here, to place childish one upmanship games or to learn
> about Java?
To put ignorant peddlers of bogus information in their places so that
the case stated in your very own words from this post does not happen:
"... because many people were passing around the incorrect
information that it was"
Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
> On Sun, 09 May 2004 15:31:56 GMT, Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
> <mattNOD...@dog.catcher> wrote or quoted :
>
>> There is no Java in OpenOffice, moron.
>
> If we were talking face to face, would you use the vocabulary of a
> five year old?
If you were pretending to be all-knowing and making bogus assertions
in total ignorance without researching the facts, then reply with
misinformed followups as "proof" of your bogus assertions which
are immediately proven to be stupid, then the answer is *YES*.
However, the original reply was not directed at you.
Roedy Green's Dentist
> On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:29:08 -0600, Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
> <mattNOD...@dog.catcher> wrote or quoted :
>
>> You're talking to a brick wall. Matt is a "Java expert" with a
>> consulting business from which he makes his living dumb
>> schmucks.
>
> see http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame11.html
Yes, we're all proud of your self-caricature but it has nothing
to do with the subject of this thread.
Panama Green
>
> Java is installed. I downloaded it from Sun and it installed without
> problem. It is in my path and works fine for simple programs I have
> tried it with.
Sun's install package leaves too much manual configuration lingering.
If you have an RPM based distribution, try one of these:
http://dag.wieers.com/packages/j2re/
It will install and configure everything necessary. There's also an
RPM to configure Java for Mozilla without having to rack your
brain with manual settings and copying files.
Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
> Matt Parker's Dog Catcher wrote:
>
>> Nice sig. Tough luck on your consulting business, loser.
>
Yes, I heard. The UK government's information systems had a
major malfunction causing them to believe Saddam had WMDs
and the 4th largest bank in the world somehow thought SCO
Group was a good investment and projected their stock price
would hit $45 this year.
> I make more than enough money to live and have regular monthly
> breaks in between contracts to indulge in travelling the world.
You should spend some of that money to get a better education and
some Java books so you won't look so stupid in public next time.
>
> Better than flipping burgers ...
It's good to see you keep yourself busy between "contracts".
Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
[...]
> Static native compilation = machine code, not Java. Any language
> *compiled* is translated to machine code.
Minor correction. Should have read, "Any language *compiled and
linked* to a native binary ..."
Panama Red
> Panama Red wrote:
>>
>> Java is installed. I downloaded it from Sun and it installed without
>> problem. It is in my path and works fine for simple programs I have
>> tried it with.
>
> Sun's install package leaves too much manual configuration lingering.
No...it doesnt. It asks where you want it installed.
> If you have an RPM based distribution, try one of these:
>
> http://dag.wieers.com/packages/j2re/
I thought you said to get it from Sun?
> It will install and configure everything necessary. There's also an
> RPM to configure Java for Mozilla without having to rack your
> brain with manual settings and copying files.
Mozilla is working fine.
John Bailo
> I believe it was Panama Green who said...
>> Panama Red wrote:
>>>
>>> Java is installed. I downloaded it from Sun and it installed without
>>> problem. It is in my path and works fine for simple programs I have
>>> tried it with.
>>
>> Sun's install package leaves too much manual configuration lingering.
>
> No...it doesnt. It asks where you want it installed.
>
>> If you have an RPM based distribution, try one of these:
>>
>> http://dag.wieers.com/packages/j2re/
>
>
> I thought you said to get it from Sun?
>
>> It will install and configure everything necessary. There's also an
>> RPM to configure Java for Mozilla without having to rack your
>> brain with manual settings and copying files.
>
> Mozilla is working fine.
>
here's a good c# tutorial
http://csharp-station.com/Tutorials/Lesson08.aspx
--
W '04 <:> Open
James A. Robertson
So based on that theory, there's no Java anywhere. After all, C++ was
mainstream in 1995, and developers have no real say in it.
>Mark Thornton
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
James A. Robertson
>In comp.lang.java.advocacy James A. Robertson <jar...@gosmalltalk.com> wrote or quoted:
>> On 8 May 2004 20:01:35 -0700, a...@blueboard.com (asj) wrote:
>> I'm amazed that so many developers put up with such low levels of
>> productivity.
>>
>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=3261383028
>
>Java probably has high productivity about now.
>
Compared to what? C++ - sure. Smalltalk? no. Lisp? No. Python or
Ruby? No.
>The reason being that many things are already written for you - and
>in many cases the task is one of fitting together existing pieces.
That's one piece, sure. However, the rigidity of it hits back, hard.
When I run across bugs/limitations in Smalltalk, I muck with the base
libs and deal with the issue directly - an option not open in Java
Panama Green
> I believe it was Panama Green who said...
>> Panama Red wrote:
>>>
>>> Java is installed. I downloaded it from Sun and it installed
>>> without problem. It is in my path and works fine for simple
>>> programs I have tried it with.
>>
>> Sun's install package leaves too much manual configuration lingering.
>
> No...it doesnt. It asks where you want it installed.
You're not serious, are you? There's more to installing software
than just, "Would you like it installed in /usr/bin/java ? (y/n)"
There are steps that need manual intervention, like setting
up some enironment variables, path, and linking to the J2RE
shared library path for Mozilla to see. Has Sun improved its
install procedure?
>
>> If you have an RPM based distribution, try one of these:
>>
>> http://dag.wieers.com/packages/j2re/
>
>
> I thought you said to get it from Sun?
I did? When?
Roedy Green
<mattNOD...@dog.catcher> wrote or quoted :
>Yes, I heard. The UK government's information systems had a
>majo
what silliness! That was a lie not a malfunction.
Roedy Green
<mattNOD...@dog.catcher> wrote or quoted :
>
>If you were pretending to be all-knowing and making bogus assertions
>in total ignorance without researching the facts, then reply with
>misinformed followups as "proof" of your bogus assertions which
>are immediately proven to be stupid, then the answer is *YES*.
You can get away with it on the net , but in person, sooner or later
someone will break your nose for that sort of inflammatory remark.
For now the best I can do is ignore you with a filter.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/plonk.html
a sound you will be hearing often if you keep this up.
Panama Red
>>
>> I thought you said to get it from Sun?
>>
>>> It will install and configure everything necessary. There's also an
>>> RPM to configure Java for Mozilla without having to rack your
>>> brain with manual settings and copying files.
>>
>> Mozilla is working fine.
>
> here's a good c# tutorial
Who the fuck asked for a c# tutorial? c# isnt even the fucking topic!
> http://csharp-station.com/Tutorials/Lesson08.aspx
Why would I want to learn Microsoft Java if I hate both Microsoft and
Java?
--
Somehow I think the only rational thing to do is not to reply to
you. But I'm not very rational. Instead I think I'll ask "what's up
with you"? What is up with you?
Roedy Green's Accountant
> On Sun, 09 May 2004 22:59:33 GMT, Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
> <mattNOD...@dog.catcher> wrote or quoted :
>
>>
>> If you were pretending to be all-knowing and making bogus assertions
>> in total ignorance without researching the facts, then reply with
>> misinformed followups as "proof" of your bogus assertions which
>> are immediately proven to be stupid, then the answer is *YES*.
>
> You can get away with it on the net , but in person, sooner or later
> someone will break your nose for that sort of inflammatory remark.
Hardly. It's foolish to underestimate people who post to Usenet as
your typical "computer nerd". I'm much, much worse and candid in
person.
> For now the best I can do is ignore you ...
Bye bye.
Panama Red
> Panama Red wrote:
>> I believe it was Panama Green who said...
>>> Panama Red wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Java is installed. I downloaded it from Sun and it installed
>>>> without problem. It is in my path and works fine for simple
>>>> programs I have tried it with.
>>>
>>> Sun's install package leaves too much manual configuration lingering.
>>
>> No...it doesnt. It asks where you want it installed.
>
> You're not serious, are you? There's more to installing software
> than just, "Would you like it installed in /usr/bin/java ? (y/n)"
>
> There are steps that need manual intervention, like setting
> up some enironment variables, path, and linking to the J2RE
> shared library path for Mozilla to see. Has Sun improved its
> install procedure?
Sun asks where you want it installed. Most people, like myself,
realize that a program must be in the $PATH if you expect it to be found
by calling programs.
Mozilla requires a plugin.... that is a completely different subject.
>>> If you have an RPM based distribution, try one of these:
>>>
>>> http://dag.wieers.com/packages/j2re/
>>
>>
>> I thought you said to get it from Sun?
>
> I did? When?
So you are not the original troll? Just one that popped up out of
nowhere?
--
Oh boy! The day I start worrying about possible misinterpretations
of what I say in ascii, the universe will end!
asj
> asj wrote:
> You waste perfectly good words on an utter idiot: JBailo
>
> And no, he is not a linux advocate. He is a stupid poser
heheh...i know...i've seen the guy ping pong all over the place since
last year...i guess some people's lives are so stale they have to
resort to getting their kicks from usenet.
J�rn W. Janneck
> Roedy Green wrote:
>> On 8 May 2004 20:07:31 -0700, a...@blueboard.com (asj) wrote or quoted
> Any which way you slice it, Java is a "scripting" language that runs
> in its own virtual machine,
so you would include statically typed languages with a distinct compilation
step and a persistent binary form "scripting languages"? that seems to be a
rather idiosyncratic use of the term.
[snip]
> Some will argue, "gjc will compile and link Java into native machine
code!"
> If you compile and link Java with gjc, *it is no longer Java*.
would you say that c++, compiled and linked with, say, gcc, is still c++? if
not, i am probably missing the point you are trying to make here.
-- j
Rob S. Pierre
> On Sun, 9 May 2004 20:07:10 GMT, Tim Tyler <t...@tt1lock.org> wrote:
>
> >In comp.lang.java.advocacy James A. Robertson <jar...@gosmalltalk.com>
wrote or quoted:
> >> On 8 May 2004 20:01:35 -0700, a...@blueboard.com (asj) wrote:
> >> I'm amazed that so many developers put up with such low levels of
> >> productivity.
> >>
> >>
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=3261383028
> >
> >Java probably has high productivity about now.
> >
>
> Compared to what? C++ - sure. Smalltalk? no. Lisp? No. Python or
> Ruby? No.
>
> >The reason being that many things are already written for you - and
> >in many cases the task is one of fitting together existing pieces.
I just wrote a HTML-Library that exposes HTML/XHTML as
Java-Object-Library. My main work was not the program-language
but the structure and hierarchy of my class-library.
How do the classes and packages interact and work together?
Which interfaces do I have to define?
Should I take a more "convenient" approach or a component-
approach? How do I integrate the components?
Which abstract classes do I have to use?
I changed the object-structure more then one time
using Eclipse and its extraordinary refactoring-tools.
Shortly ... the main work for me was defining the structure
and hierarchy of my library.
"Translating" the library to Java was only part of my work.
If I would have choosed another language then Java I wouldn't
be more productive.
So what is your deal?
Do you wanna say that using Smalltalk replaces thinking
about the algorithms and object-structures?
Can you explain me why using Smalltalk would be more
productive for me? Coding the library in Java was not the
main work so to say.
I really don't understand how Smalltalk-developers claim to
be more productive then other developers if the main work
of every software-development is not coding.
And what's about testing? You have to write testcases
in Smalltalk too I guess?
So tell me: which part of software-development should be
faster or more productive when using i.e. Smalltalk.
By the way: I used pieces from Jakarta and this was
really helpful.
Jacob Rohde
Is it possible for you to write a post WITHOUT linking to the glossary
on your site?
Roedy Green
<ze...@NOSPAMpost.cybercity.dk> wrote or quoted :
>
>Is it possible for you to write a post WITHOUT linking to the glossary
>on your site?
It is possible, but it saves bandwidth to just link to optional
extras.
Jacob Rohde
Sure. I just noticed that in almost all you messages (well a majority
anyways) you link to your glossary (not that I mind though).
Roedy Green
<ze...@NOSPAMpost.cybercity.dk> wrote or quoted :
>Sure. I just noticed that in almost all you messages (well a majority
>anyways) you link to your glossary (not that I mind though).
That is because people ask the same questions over and over. I have
already answered them. I save the answers in the glossary.
Often I polish them a bit to include the new wrinkles of the most
recent questioner. Sometimes I create a totally new entry. Sometimes
I spend several hours researching. You can't tell. All you see is the
link. I try to create the illusion the answer to every question was
already in there.
I talk so much, I figure I should try to do as much as possible via
links so people can skip over if they are not interested.
Matt Parker
> On Sun, 09 May 2004 23:16:32 GMT, Matt Parker's Dog Catcher
> <mattNOD...@dog.catcher> wrote or quoted :
>
>>Yes, I heard. The UK government's information systems had a
>>majo
>
> what silliness! That was a lie not a malfunction.
>
And he got the wrong bank.
Matt
--
Not so interesting...
http://www.mpcontracting.co.uk
Tim Tyler
> On Sun, 9 May 2004 20:07:10 GMT, Tim Tyler <t...@tt1lock.org> wrote:
> >In comp.lang.java.advocacy James A. Robertson <jar...@gosmalltalk.com> wrote or quoted:
> >> On 8 May 2004 20:01:35 -0700, a...@blueboard.com (asj) wrote:
> >> I'm amazed that so many developers put up with such low levels of
> >> productivity.
> >>
> >> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=3261383028
> >
> >Java probably has high productivity about now.
>
> Compared to what? C++ - sure. Smalltalk? no. Lisp? No. Python or
> Ruby? No.
Having lots of code written for you is a big plus for C++ and Java.
It's a plus point that applies to a much lesser extent to other languages.
> >The reason being that many things are already written for you - and
> >in many cases the task is one of fitting together existing pieces.
>
> That's one piece, sure. However, the rigidity of it hits back, hard.
> When I run across bugs/limitations in Smalltalk, I muck with the base
> libs and deal with the issue directly - an option not open in Java
Many of Java's base classes can be extended and modified by the user.
For those that cannot, the reason is often security. Java's security
model depends on some basic classes behaving in the ways the designers
intended. Strings, for example. If you could make a mutable string,
then you could pass such an object to security-sensitive methods, and
make them behave in an unexpected fashion.
Removing the ability of hackers to interfere with the language's security
features and do things such as escape from Java's sandbox - has
some positive aspects - despite there being some associated costs.
Smalltalk doesn't face this problem - since it doesn't make any effort
to deal with security issues.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
James A. Robertson
>Having lots of code written for you is a big plus for C++ and Java.
>
I'm sure it is
>It's a plus point that applies to a much lesser extent to other languages.
>
>> >The reason being that many things are already written for you - and
>> >in many cases the task is one of fitting together existing pieces.
>>
>> That's one piece, sure. However, the rigidity of it hits back, hard.
>> When I run across bugs/limitations in Smalltalk, I muck with the base
>> libs and deal with the issue directly - an option not open in Java
>
>Many of Java's base classes can be extended and modified by the user.
>
Subclassing doesn't always help. If you are always going to get a
given kind of object - based on the way a framework works - then
adding methods to that class is the "simplest thing that could
possibly work"
>For those that cannot, the reason is often security. Java's security
>model depends on some basic classes behaving in the ways the designers
>intended. Strings, for example. If you could make a mutable string,
>then you could pass such an object to security-sensitive methods, and
>make them behave in an unexpected fashion.
How relevant is the Java (oriented towards applets) security model to
most servers? Other than as an obstacle, that is? Strings are not
mutable in Smalltalk either - that was a bug in ST at one time.
>
>Removing the ability of hackers to interfere with the language's security
>features and do things such as escape from Java's sandbox - has
>some positive aspects - despite there being some associated costs.
>
If your server is properly set up, this is an issue outside the scope
of the programming language. Making the language deal with it is
just... silly
>Smalltalk doesn't face this problem - since it doesn't make any effort
>to deal with security issues.
because it's an OS level issue.
Luke Tulkas
"James A. Robertson" <jar...@gosmalltalk.com> wrote in message
news:t9dv905cgbjrcjc78...@4ax.com...
[snip]
> If your server is properly set up, this is an issue outside the scope
> of the programming language. Making the language deal with it is
> just... silly
You're confusing Java the language with Java the platform.
Mark Thornton
> On Sun, 09 May 2004 14:39:24 +0100, Mark Thornton
> <mark-p-...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>>James A. Robertson wrote:
>>
>>>Yeah, I see that. When Java adds in the productivity that existed in
>>>things like Smalltalk and Lisp - 20 and 30 years ago - let us know.
>>>
>>>I'm amazed that so many developers put up with such low levels of
>>>productivity.
>>>
>>>http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=3261383028
>>>
>>
>>You aren't really amazed, you know as well as I do that developers don't
>>get an unrestricted choice of language or environment to use. All too
>>many are restricted to systems bearing the "Microsoft seal of approval".
>>At the time we chose Java, Java had (or appeared to have) that approval
>
>>from Redmond. At that time (~1998) Smalltalk was all but invisible,
>
>>nothing but a half forgotten memory (or worse).
>>
>
>
> So based on that theory, there's no Java anywhere. After all, C++ was
> mainstream in 1995, and developers have no real say in it.
>
Developers have some say, but usually not the final say. Also Java had
(at the time) some impressive marketing --- the developers bosses had
heard of it (but not SmallTalk). Finally Microsoft appeared to be
supporting it (at that time). So Java got a start.
Mark Thornton
James A. Robertson
Go ahead, play semantic games....
altkey
Well, regardless of how much of a poser you think he is it doesn't
change the status of Mono or .NET. C# is a good language, java 1.5 has
borrowed several of the ideas implemented in C#, and the .NET APIs are
good. It doesn't matter if it comes from MS, it is still well designed
and well executed. It certainly is attractive for windows developers and
having Mono available in Linux is nice, since what you learn doe C# in
one environment is applicable in the other.
my 2 cents worth :-)
Rob S. Pierre
"altkey" <myal...@msn.com> wrote:
> Well, regardless of how much of a poser you think he is it doesn't
> change the status of Mono or .NET. C# is a good language, java 1.5 has
> borrowed several of the ideas implemented in C#, and the .NET APIs are
> good. It doesn't matter if it comes from MS, it is still well designed
> and well executed. It certainly is attractive for windows developers and
> having Mono available in Linux is nice, since what you learn doe C# in
> one environment is applicable in the other.
>
> my 2 cents worth :-)
Here are my 2 cents.
Look what I found in a Mono-newsgroup:
> I'm planning to migrate a server from windows to linux.
> However one of the applications is in vb.net. Its a fairly big
> applications so i don't think its going to be possible to rewrite it.
Somebody is "planning to migrate his apps from Windows to Linux".
Do you think Microsoft is planning that too?
HTH
Bradley E. Rintoul
Question about Mono: once it's put to the test, will it be able to
perform on par with, let's say, Java efforts on the same platform(s)?
Seems the current strength of Java lies in the "back end"; will Mono
be able to perform up to snuff when put to the test in the ASP/J2EE
type arena? My bet: nah.
altkey
I don't really care if MS would do that. I am not MS and Mono is not MS.
I like the idea of making windows apps available under linux without
needing to run Wine or some virtual machine. MS is entitled to do
whatever they want, and i am sure that they will. But we can do our own
thing and not worry too much about MS intentions. If Mono fails it is
good to know that Java has adopted a lot of the C# syntax candy and some
extra stuff too - like generics.
> HTH
>
>
The Joker's Wild
> Question about Mono: once it's put to the test, will it be able to
> perform on par with, let's say, Java efforts on the same platform(s)?
Let's put it this way.
What platform was mono developed on?
Right. So one can assume that it has been optimized for a Linux server
environment.
As opposed to java which was written for what...Solaris ????
> Seems the current strength of Java lies in the "back end";
Only because they couldn't sell it on the /front/ end !
C'mon. Everyone knows the AWT is a JOKE!
Take a look at how good a GTK# application -- even the simplest -- looks.
> will Mono
> be able to perform up to snuff when put to the test in the ASP/J2EE
> type arena? My bet: nah.
I think mono can clean java's clocks.
--
W '04 <:> Open
The Joker's Wild
> Rob S. Pierre wrote:
>> Somebody is "planning to migrate his apps from Windows to Linux".
>> Do you think Microsoft is planning that too?
Yes, and this is why I think Microsoft is showing a kind of Benign Neglect
when it comes to mono.
> I don't really care if MS would do that. I am not MS and Mono is not MS.
> I like the idea of making windows apps available under linux without
> needing to run Wine or some virtual machine.
YES! YES! YES! Finally someone who agrees with me! I HATE emus.
> MS is entitled to do
> whatever they want, and i am sure that they will. But we can do our own
> thing and not worry too much about MS intentions.
They can sell Linux versions of their applications as much as they like.
>If Mono fails it is
> good to know that Java has adopted a lot of the C# syntax candy and some
> extra stuff too - like generics.
As I said in another post, the one thing java doesn't have and never will is
good GUI tools. The AWT even its present form is a JOKE. You can spot a
java app a mile away with it's hokey interface, bogus File Open dialog and
so on. I mean, you know how the trolls talk about LInux apps -- man, if
they ever saw a Java app they would be laughing in their soup!
mono offers not one but MANY gui toolkits, including the venerable GTK in
the form of GTKSharp which is TOTALLY cross platform. In fact, if you
really want to be cross platform AND save money -- install the Windos
version of mono and GTKSharp as well the Linux and write true -- good
looking and modern -- applications.....
--
W '04 <:> Open
Tom Shelton
"Bradley E. Rintoul" <brin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:855ef0ba.04051...@posting.google.com...
> altkey <myal...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:<40a03308$1...@funnel.arach.net.au>...
> > asj wrote:
> > > Peter Köhlmann <Peter.K...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:<c7lleb$qbq$01$2...@news.t-online.com>...
> > >
> > >>asj wrote:
> >
> > Well, regardless of how much of a poser you think he is it doesn't
> > change the status of Mono or .NET. C# is a good language, java 1.5 has
> > borrowed several of the ideas implemented in C#, and the .NET APIs are
> > good. It doesn't matter if it comes from MS, it is still well designed
> > and well executed. It certainly is attractive for windows developers and
> > having Mono available in Linux is nice, since what you learn doe C# in
> > one environment is applicable in the other.
> >
> > my 2 cents worth :-)
>
> Question about Mono: once it's put to the test, will it be able to
> perform on par with, let's say, Java efforts on the same platform(s)?
Yes.
> Seems the current strength of Java lies in the "back end"; will Mono
> be able to perform up to snuff when put to the test in the ASP/J2EE
> type arena? My bet: nah.
I'm sure what that is supposed to mean... Mono works, and works well. They
already have a full ASP.NET implementation running under Apache using
mod-mono and xsp. They have for quite sometime. Mono is pretty far along -
they have gotten code and support from several 3rd party commercial
companies. SourceGear helped them a lot with ASP.NET and XML Web Services.
MainSoft just donated a bunch of code to their VB.NET implementation.
Novell is starting to use Mono internally for several of their new products.
There is another 3rd party contributing a lot of code to their
System.Windows.Forms implementation. Mono ships with native data access to
several major databases - more then .NET even, since Mono supports Postgres
and MySQL out of the box.
So why is it that you think that it won't be up to snuff? It already is,
IMHO.
--
Tom Shelton
Luke Tulkas
> On Mon, 10 May 2004 20:40:44 +0200, "Luke Tulkas"
> <Luke_Tu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"James A. Robertson" <jar...@gosmalltalk.com> wrote in message
> >news:t9dv905cgbjrcjc78...@4ax.com...
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> If your server is properly set up, this is an issue outside the
scope
> >> of the programming language. Making the language deal with it is
> >> just... silly
> >
> >You're confusing Java the language with Java the platform.
>
> Go ahead, play semantic games....
You think that's semantics? Well, I don't blame you. Sun folks did cause
a bit of confusion with their naming.
asj
> change the status of Mono or .NET. C# is a good language, java 1.5 has
> borrowed several of the ideas implemented in C#, and the .NET APIs are
> good. It doesn't matter if it comes from MS, it is still well designed
well, i've never actually commented on C# structure since that is
actually besides the point. the point is (1) there is a patent problem
hanging over mono, no matter what wool de icaza pulls over your eyes,
and this is sure to cause problems for any distro stupid enough to
include it; (2) i'm not really sure how many of the major linux
distros will actually include it, given the potential problems; (3)
i'm not sure about the alleged benefits (attracting windows developers
to linux? please! linux on the desktop is about as relevant to windows
desktop developers right now as sand is to a guy stranded in the
middle of the sahara desert - it makes no economic sense to go to a
platform that is a miniscule percentage of the market AND has so many
freebie software running on it anyways); (4) are there any potential
jobs or any economic benefits to mono? again, not in any significant
way since (a) linux is a miniscule part of the desktop market and (b)
some of the major distros will probably not carry it - e.g. the sun
java desktop.
if you like being a pawn in microsoft's games as it tries to move
people over to its orbit through third parties like de icaza, hey,
that's your life. just don't cry when the wool is suddenly removed
from your eyes.
on the other hand, developing in java means you automatically become
part of one of the fastest growing open source community out there.
there are MORE open source java projects than PHP or Perl in
sourceforge.net! apache is a strong supporter of java, and you all
know apache knows when it sees a good thing and usually wins - apache
even is realesing its own open source J2EE app server in Geronimo!
asj
> The Java Community just seems like a big, huge self-congratulatory group of
> back slappers.
Well, I guess them open source types (you know, like apache, which is
crushing IIs and everyone else on the web server front) are a bunch of
backslapping self-congratulatory nincompoops too, since three open
source J2EE app servers are making headway and headlines. kinda puts a
low spin on mono, eh, with its patent problems and potential problems
getting into major distros?
http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2004/0511opensourc.html
----------------------------------------
Enterprises shopping for a Java application server will soon have more
reasons to look at open source software, with no less than three open
source projects expected to be certified compatible with Sun's
enterprise Java standard by year-end.
Geronimo, a project of the Apache Software Foundation, and Jonas,
overseen by Europe's ObjectWeb consortium, both announced recently
that they have begun testing their products against Sun's Java 2,
Enterprise Edition (J2EE) 1.4 test suites. Geronimo said it hopes to
be certified as J2EE-compliant by August, while Jonas is aiming for
the second half of the year.
JBoss, whose application server is already widely used, is being cagey
about when it expects to complete Sun's compatibility tests, but the
company is likely to announce certification as early as next month,
according to John Rymer, a vice president and industry analyst with
Forrester Research
Tom Shelton
> The Ruling Class <jab...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> The Java Community just seems like a big, huge self-congratulatory group of
>> back slappers.
>
>
> Well, I guess them open source types (you know, like apache, which is
> crushing IIs and everyone else on the web server front) are a bunch of
> backslapping self-congratulatory nincompoops too, since three open
> source J2EE app servers are making headway and headlines. kinda puts a
> low spin on mono, eh, with its patent problems and potential problems
> getting into major distros?
>
It already is in major distos. It is going to ship with SuSE 9.1. It
is part of the Gentoo portage collection. You get on RedHad with that
Red carpet thingy. Debian - apt.
--
Tom Shelton
J�rn W. Janneck
> If Mono fails it is
> good to know that Java has adopted a lot of the C# syntax candy and some
> extra stuff too - like generics.
which contributions did mono make towards java's generics? or did i
misunderstand you here?
-- j
J�rn W. Janneck
>> Go ahead, play semantic games....
>
> You think that's semantics?
<rant>
this use of the term "semantics" is something i find increasingly annoying.
people say "oh, but that is *just* semantics" in order to express that
something is not important, not worth discussing.
semantics, ladies and gentlemen, is *meaning*. if something is more
important or worth discussing than meaning, i would like to know what it is.
syntax, perhaps? maybe pragmatics, but how do you discuss pragmatics without
first establishing a clear mutual understanding of semantics?
especially in our profession, which uses (artificial) languages all the
time, and in which precise notions of their semantics is so crucial, we
should avoid using this term to refer to unimportant or irrelevant things.
</rant>
sorry, had to get it off. ;-)
-- j
T. Max Devlin
yahoo dot com> wrote:
>[snip]
>>> Go ahead, play semantic games....
>>
>> You think that's semantics?
>[snip]
>
><rant>
>this use of the term "semantics" is something i find increasingly annoying.
>people say "oh, but that is *just* semantics" in order to express that
>something is not important, not worth discussing.
>
>semantics, ladies and gentlemen, is *meaning*. if something is more
>important or worth discussing than meaning, i would like to know what it is.
>syntax, perhaps? maybe pragmatics, but how do you discuss pragmatics without
>first establishing a clear mutual understanding of semantics?
Semantics is not meaning, it is how meaning is derived from words. A
subtle but important distinction which itself is (ahem) semantic.
As for your second question, the answer is "you don't", and that
explains why you see so many people trying to bow out of arguments
citing 'semantics'.
>especially in our profession, which uses (artificial) languages all the
>time,
The term for an artificial language is "not a language". For decades
people have been missing this point, and so people who are in 'your
profession' (by which I presume you mean programmers rather than
advocates) are the very worst at being unable to distinguish between
reasoning and pseudo-mathematical semantics.
>and in which precise notions of their semantics is so crucial,
That would be syntax. Mathematical codes (such as programming) do not
really have semantic meaning, just arbitrary assignments.
It is worth pointing out that many philosophers do not make a
distinction between semantics and logic. The point of saying that
something is "just semantics" is to make clear that the argument being
responded to is based on pedantic quibbling rather than productive
reasoning.
>we
>should avoid using this term to refer to unimportant or irrelevant things.
></rant>
Semantics is the study of the thing, not the thing itself, so semantic
arguments usually are unimportant and irrelevant. Not that this is
the case in every example of someone claiming that an argument is
'semantic'. I should know, I think, since I've been accused of
'arguing semantics' (what I'm usually arguing in these cases is
reasoning or philosophy) more often than I could possibly count.
Occassionaly it is even true, but only occassionaly.
>sorry, had to get it off. ;-)
Sorry, had to play devil's advocate. ;-)