Paul Graham's troll essay ... interesting reading
Terry Porter
begin{quote}
February 2008
A user on Hacker News recently posted a comment that set me thinking:
Something about hacker culture that never really set well with me was
this?the nastiness. ... I just don't understand why people troll like they
do.
I've thought a lot over the last couple years about the problem of trolls.
It's an old one, as old as forums, but we're still just learning what the
causes are and how to address them.
There are two senses of the word "troll." In the original sense it meant
someone, usually an outsider, who deliberately stirred up fights in a forum
by saying controversial things. [1] For example, someone who didn't use a
certain programming language might go to a forum for users of that language
and make disparaging remarks about it, then sit back and watch as people
rose to the bait. This sort of trolling was in the nature of a practical
joke, like letting a bat loose in a room full of people.
The definition then spread to people who behaved like assholes in forums,
whether intentionally or not. Now when people talk about trolls they usually
mean this broader sense of the word. Though in a sense this is historically
inaccurate, it is in other ways more accurate, because when someone is being
an asshole it's usually uncertain even in their own mind how much is
deliberate. That is arguably one of the defining qualities of an asshole.
I think trolling in the broader sense has four causes. The most important is
distance. People will say things in anonymous forums that they'd never dare
say to someone's face, just as they'll do things in cars that they'd never
do as pedestrians?like tailgate people, or honk at them, or cut them off.
Trolling tends to be particularly bad in forums related to computers, and I
think that's due to the kind of people you find there. Most of them (myself
included) are more comfortable dealing with abstract ideas than with people.
Hackers can be abrupt even in person. Put them on an anonymous forum, and
the problem gets worse.
The third cause of trolling is incompetence. If you disagree with something,
it's easier to say "you suck" than to figure out and explain exactly what
you disagree with. You're also safe that way from refutation. In this
respect trolling is a lot like graffiti. Graffiti happens at the
intersection of ambition and incompetence: people want to make their mark on
the world, but have no other way to do it than literally making a mark on
the world. [2]
The final contributing factor is the culture of the forum. Trolls are like
children (many are children) in that they're capable of a wide range of
behavior depending on what they think will be tolerated. In a place where
rudeness isn't tolerated, most can be polite. But vice versa as well.
There's a sort of Gresham's Law of trolls: trolls are willing to use a forum
with a lot of thoughtful people in it, but thoughtful people aren't willing
to use a forum with a lot of trolls in it. Which means that once trolling
takes hold, it tends to become the dominant culture. That had already
happened to Slashdot and Digg by the time I paid attention to comment
threads there, but I watched it happen to Reddit.
News.YC is, among other things, an experiment to see if this fate can be
avoided. The sites's guidelines explicitly ask people not to say things they
wouldn't say face to face. If someone starts being rude, other users will
step in and tell them to stop. And when people seem to be deliberately
trolling, we ban them ruthlessly.
Technical tweaks may also help. On Reddit, votes on your comments don't
affect your karma score, but they do on News.YC. And it does seem to
influence people when they can see their reputation in the eyes of their
peers drain away after making an asshole remark. Often users have second
thoughts and delete such comments.
One might worry this would prevent people from expressing controversial
ideas, but empirically that doesn't seem to be what happens. When people say
something substantial that gets modded down, they stubbornly leave it up.
What people delete are wisecracks, because they have less invested in them.
So far the experiment seems to be working. The level of conversation on
News.YC is as high as on any forum I've seen. But we still only have about
8,000 uniques a day. The conversations on Reddit were good when it was that
small. The challenge is whether we can keep things this way.
I'm optimistic we will. We're not depending just on technical tricks. The
core users of News.YC are mostly refugees from other sites that were overrun
by trolls. They feel about trolls roughly the way refugees from Cuba or
Eastern Europe feel about dictatorships. So there are a lot of people
working to keep this from happening again.
Notes
[1] I mean forum in the general sense of a place to exchange views. The
original Internet forums were not web sites but Usenet newsgroups.
[2] I'm talking here about everyday tagging. Some graffiti is quite
impressive (anything becomes art if you do it well enough) but the median
tag is just visual spam.
end{quote}
http://paulgraham.com/trolls.html
--
This quadcore running Gnu/Linux Gentoo:
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> There are two senses of the word "troll." In the original sense it meant
> someone, usually an outsider, who deliberately stirred up fights in a
> forum by saying controversial things. [1] For example, someone who didn't
> use a certain programming language might go to a forum for users of that
> language and make disparaging remarks about it, then sit back and watch as
> people rose to the bait.
That’s not “trolling”. Because if it was, then Edsger W Dijkstra (he of
“GOTOs Considered Harmful” fame) was a troll. And so was Niklaus Wirth, for
badmouthing ALGOL 68 and developing Pascal.
Being controversial is not being a troll.
Chris Ahlstrom
> begin{quote}
> February 2008
>
> The definition then spread to people who behaved like "Hadron" in forums,
> whether intentionally or not. Now when people talk about trolls they usually
> mean this broader sense of the word. Though in a sense this is historically
> inaccurate, it is in other ways more accurate, because when someone is being
> a "Hadron" it's usually uncertain even in their own mind how much is
> deliberate. That is arguably one of the defining qualities of a "Hadron".
> end{quote}
>
> http://paulgraham.com/hadron.html
--
"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser."
-- Vince Lombardi, football coach
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> "Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser."
> -- Vince Lombardi, football coach
Yeah, but show me a bad loser, and I’ll show you another loser.
Homer
Show me a winner, and I'll show you someone who lives in fear of losing.
--
K. | Ancient Chinese Proverb:
http://slated.org | "The road to Hell is paved with
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on sky | ignorant twits who know nothing
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 6 days | about GNU/Linux."
Juan
> Show me a winner, and I'll show you someone who lives in fear of losing.
That has to be the most asinine statement I have read in a long
time.
Most people strive to be winners. Apparently Linux advocates are
content to be losers.
No wonder Linux is going nowhere as a consumer desktop OS.
Gregory Shearman
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:35:40 +0000, Homer wrote:
>
>
>> Show me a winner, and I'll show you someone who lives in fear of losing.
>
> That has to be the most asinine statement I have read in a long
> time.
>
> Most people strive to be winners. Apparently Linux advocates are
> content to be losers.
The binary world of Flatfish... there are ONLY winners and losers.
Flatty doesn't realise that most people aren't even playing the game.
They are getting on with their lives and sniggering at the
failure-terrified morons wasting their lives in senseless competition.
> No wonder Linux is going nowhere as a consumer desktop OS.
"Consumer Desktop OS"
Who cares?
--
Regards,
Gregory.
Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power
Juan
> On 2010-12-31, Juan <skibu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:35:40 +0000, Homer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Show me a winner, and I'll show you someone who lives in fear of losing.
>>
>> That has to be the most asinine statement I have read in a long
>> time.
>>
>> Most people strive to be winners. Apparently Linux advocates are
>> content to be losers.
>
> The binary world of Flatfish... there are ONLY winners and losers.
I didn't post that asinine statement.
One of your own did.
>
> Flatty doesn't realise that most people aren't even playing the game.
> They are getting on with their lives and sniggering at the
> failure-terrified morons wasting their lives in senseless competition.
Nice attempt at dodging the question.
In a race, you have winners and losers.
Figure the rest out for yourself and rest assured if Linux were
actually the winner you would certainly change your tune.
>> No wonder Linux is going nowhere as a consumer desktop OS.
>
> "Consumer Desktop OS"
>
> Who cares?
Nobody except the losers in COLA who keep claiming Linux has won.
High Plains Thumper
> Juan <skibu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Homer wrote:
>>
>>> Show me a winner, and I'll show you someone who lives in fear of losing.
>>
>> That has to be the most asinine statement I have read in a long
>> time.
>> Most people strive to be winners.
>> Apparently Linux advocates are content to be losers.
>
> The binary world of Flatfish... there are ONLY winners and losers.
> Flatty doesn't realise that most people aren't even playing the game.
> They are getting on with their lives and sniggering at the failure-
> terrified morons wasting their lives in senseless competition.
>
>> No wonder Linux is going nowhere as a consumer desktop OS.
>
> "Consumer Desktop OS" Who cares?
Yup, another nymshift for binning. Flatfish's old agendas are coming out.
--
HPT
High Plains Thumper
I think the reason why Terry brought it up is in the sense of the trolling
going on in COLA. That trolling is disruptive, for example, flatfish and
its many nyms ad homineming posters posting positive information and
experiences with Linux or negative experiences with other operating
systems, particularly Microsoft products. Other example is nymshifting and
impersonating an advocate with libellous info such as gender change sexual
mutilation, then returning to comment about it. False accusations toward
others regarding nymshifting AKA Hitler's right hand man's propoganda, to
tell a lie enough times so people begin to believe it as truth.
Then there is Snit, who keeps shifting goal posts with strawman arguments,
never being satisfied with nearly all statements by the advocates, who in
turn supports these trolls, calling the advocate a troll. Snit used to
hang out in comp.sys.mac.advocacy, but now spends most of his time
trolling COLA. Perhaps he's been payrolled?
This is all done not for the sake of discussion, but to cause people to
leave this newsgroup.
[quote]
In the Mopping Up phase, Evangelism's goal is to put the final nail into
the competing technology's coffin, and bury it in the burning depths of
the earth. Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated
with mental deficiency, as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter
Bunny, and OS/2."
Just keep rubbing it in, via the press, analysts, newsgroups, whatever.
make the complete failure of the competition's technology part of the
mythology of the computer industry.
We want to place selection pressure on the companies and individuals
that show a genetic weakness for competitor's technologies, to make the
industry increasingly resistant to such unhealthy strains, over time.
[/quote]
PDF page 55
Microsoft Evangelism
Comes vs. Microsoft court case
http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf
--
HPT
Snit
4:58 AM:
> Then there is Snit, who keeps shifting goal posts with strawman arguments,
... of which you can find no examples of...
> never being satisfied with nearly all statements by the advocates,
... depends on the statements and what they are about!
> who in turn supports these trolls,
Nope. I call out those who trolls on their lies. Do you need examples of
my noting and quoting the lies of RonB and Chris A. in just the last few
days? Trolls such as yourself clearly hate the fact I do *not* support you.
> calling the advocate a troll.
When people troll I note it. And that pisses you off. Oh well.
> Snit used to hang out in comp.sys.mac.advocacy,
> but now spends most of his time trolling COLA. Perhaps he's been payrolled?
If you want to pay me I am open to the idea!
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
RonB
> Yup, another nymshift for binning. Flatfish's old agendas are coming
> out.
But you've got to admit this particular troll nym seems to be dining very
well.
--
RonB
Registered Linux User #498581
CentOS 5.5 or VectorLinux Deluxe 6.0
Chris Ahlstrom
> On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 04:33:56 -0700, High Plains Thumper wrote:
>
>> Yup, another nymshift for binning. Flatfish's old agendas are coming
>> out.
>
> But you've got to admit this particular troll nym seems to be dining very
> well.
That's just the old "be reasonable at first" trick that Flounder plays.
Then he gets impatient and slowly degenerates to his lowest energy level.
--
"Being against torture ought to be sort of a bipartisan thing."
-- Karl Lehenbauer
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Nope. I call out those who trolls on their lies.
Then why do you keep repeating the myth about small Linux market share, when
it is commonly found on CPUs that outship Windows on x86?
Snit
11:05 PM:
What lie do you think I have told? Be specific. Quote me.
But you will not. This is 100% guaranteed.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Snit
1:32 AM:
That is not a quote of me. Seriously, do you understand the accusation you
have made and what it would take to show support for it?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro stated in post ifpd6t$eh9$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz on 1/2/11
> 1:32 AM:
>
>> In message <C9457912.889A9%use...@gallopinginsanity.com>, Snit wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro stated in post ifp4ig$973$5...@lust.ihug.co.nz on
>>> 1/1/11 11:05 PM:
>>>
>>>> In message <C944A133.888E7%use...@gallopinginsanity.com>, Snit wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nope. I call out those who trolls on their lies.
>>>>
>>>> Then why do you keep repeating the myth about small Linux market share,
>>>> when it is commonly found on CPUs that outship Windows on x86?
>>>
>>> What lie do you think I have told? Be specific. Quote me.
>>>
>>> But you will not. This is 100% guaranteed.
>>
>>
<https://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&q=1%25+market+author%3Asnit+group%3Acomp.os.linux.advocacy&btnG=Search&sitesearch=>
>
> That is not a quote of me.
I knew it. 100% guaranteed you would deny it.
Chris Ahlstrom
> Nope. I call out those who trolls on their lies. Do you need examples of
> my noting and quoting the lies of RonB and Chris A. in just the last few
> days? Trolls such as yourself clearly hate the fact I do *not* support you.
This bastard is still calling us liars? What a crank.
--
Garbage In, Gospel Out
Snit
1/2/11 5:55 AM:
I noted that you and RonB lied. And you did. Here your lies are quoted.
Again.
Chris Ahlstrom:
-----
Notice that the author mentions difficulties with crap 3rd-party
Photoshop plugins, so perhaps "Hadron" is really complaining about
them, and not PSPI itself.
-----
Even TomB acknowledged Chris's comment was inaccurate:
TomB
-----
You're right. I suspect he simply misread it, but I can't say for
sure. I guess it's up to Chris to explain this.
-----
I did not give him 'a pass'. I simply didn't read the website he
linked to and assumed his comment was accurate.
-----
But Chris made up stories to try to defend his lie:
Chris Ahlstrom:
-----
"Crap" (not working well) and already covering existing GIMP
functionality. Two separate points. Seems pretty clear to me.
-----
And Chris just flat out makes up stories about my views:
Chris Ahlstrom:
-----
Once again, Snit misinterprets. The features of GIMP *are*
important. ... Snit is merely carrying on that fine tradition by
claiming that, unless your product has *all* the features of
Photoshop, it is shit.
-----
And when he was called on this BS and told he was flat out wrong, he
responded with this:
Chris Ahlstrom
-----
Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. If Snit really believes those are
lies, he has a psychological vulnerability that leaves him unfit
for conversing on Usenet.
-----
Not sure why you think denying your lies over and over will help your case.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Hadron
Chris Ahlstrom never seems to follow up on the FACTS where you prove him
to be a preening, arrogant, dishonest liar. He just ignores them and
spews more invective and porky pies. It's as if he has no shame.
Snit
3:33 AM:
>> That is not a quote of me. Seriously, do you understand the accusation you
>> have made and what it would take to show support for it?
>
> I knew it. 100% guaranteed you would deny it.
I have now asked you repeatedly to support your accusations of my
dishonesty. Not only have you failed, you have shown no reason to think you
believe your own claims.
Now you will drop even pretending to support your claim and go off topic -
likely with a meta debate. Oh well. You lied about me and were busted...
now you try to obfuscate. This is completely predictable. It is not like
you are the first to use this type of trolling.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
AM:
He snips and runs from the quotes and then pretends they do not exist. Over
and over and over.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Juan
He sure seems to be a real crybaby, that's for sure.
Snit
9:47 AM:
Agreed.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
RonB
Amusing, but a bit creepy. I've never had a crank troll fixated on me
before.
Chris Ahlstrom
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 07:55:21 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Snit pulled this Usenet face plant:
>>
>>> Nope. I call out those who trolls on their lies. Do you need examples
>>> of my noting and quoting the lies of RonB and Chris A. in just the last
>>> few days? Trolls such as yourself clearly hate the fact I do *not*
>>> support you.
>>
>> This bastard is still calling us liars? What a crank.
>
> Amusing, but a bit creepy. I've never had a crank troll fixated on me
> before.
I think Snit is paranoid. "Hadron" seems to feed off of it, too.
--
Men take only their needs into consideration -- never their abilities.
-- Napoleon Bonaparte
RonB
> RonB pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 07:55:21 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Snit pulled this Usenet face plant:
>>>
>>>> Nope. I call out those who trolls on their lies. Do you need
>>>> examples of my noting and quoting the lies of RonB and Chris A. in
>>>> just the last few days? Trolls such as yourself clearly hate the
>>>> fact I do *not* support you.
>>>
>>> This bastard is still calling us liars? What a crank.
>>
>> Amusing, but a bit creepy. I've never had a crank troll fixated on me
>> before.
>
> I think Snit is paranoid. "Hadron" seems to feed off of it, too.
And I hear that both of them, besides trolling incessantly in COLA, spread
their "joy" around in several other newsgroups as well. I guess cranks
don't have lives.
Snit
PM:
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 07:55:21 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Snit pulled this Usenet face plant:
>>
>>> Nope. I call out those who trolls on their lies. Do you need examples
>>> of my noting and quoting the lies of RonB and Chris A. in just the last
>>> few days? Trolls such as yourself clearly hate the fact I do *not*
>>> support you.
>>
>> This bastard is still calling us liars? What a crank.
>
> Amusing, but a bit creepy. I've never had a crank troll fixated on me
> before.
I note your lies about *me* and you whine I am "fixating" on you. Do you
see the irony there?
RonB:
-----
You don't like the variety of UIs and think there should be one
"consistent" UI mandated by (? whomever) -- it ain't happening.
-----
It's a non-issue for most computerists, yet Snit (and WinTrolls
and MacTrolls in general) almost always cite the lack of
Photoshop for Linux as a reason that Linux is not "desktop
ready."
-----
Snit just can't accept the fact that not everyone worships M$
Office.
-----
Those are lies. From you. About me. And they are recent.
Feel free to whine how I "fixate" on your lies about me. Wah wah.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
PM:
Nobody said you did have a life... other than lying about people:
RonB:
-----
You don't like the variety of UIs and think there should be one
"consistent" UI mandated by (? whomever) -- it ain't happening.
-----
It's a non-issue for most computerists, yet Snit (and WinTrolls
and MacTrolls in general) almost always cite the lack of
Photoshop for Linux as a reason that Linux is not "desktop
ready."
-----
Snit just can't accept the fact that not everyone worships M$
Office.
-----
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
1/2/11 12:20 PM:
> RonB pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 07:55:21 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Snit pulled this Usenet face plant:
>>>
>>>> Nope. I call out those who trolls on their lies. Do you need examples
>>>> of my noting and quoting the lies of RonB and Chris A. in just the last
>>>> few days? Trolls such as yourself clearly hate the fact I do *not*
>>>> support you.
>>>
>>> This bastard is still calling us liars? What a crank.
>>
>> Amusing, but a bit creepy. I've never had a crank troll fixated on me
>> before.
>
> I think Snit is paranoid. "Hadron" seems to feed off of it, too.
You call me names for quoting your lies. Oh well.
Now you and RonB are trying to turn things around and pretend it speaks
poorly of me that I caught you lying. How dare I! If only people would let
you spew dishonest BS in peace!
LOL!
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Juan
You are absolutely destroying that crank Ahlstrom!
Each time he attempts to contradict your posts,take statements out
of context, snip and run, change the subject line and so forth you
pull out the hammer and nails and nail him to the Linux cultist's
cross.
Ahlstrom must like pain or something.
Bwaaaaaaaaaa!
Snit
1:02 PM:
Nope. His own lies and his poor actions in response to being busted is what
has destroyed him.
> Each time he attempts to contradict your posts,take statements out
> of context, snip and run, change the subject line and so forth you
> pull out the hammer and nails and nail him to the Linux cultist's
> cross.
>
> Ahlstrom must like pain or something.
> Bwaaaaaaaaaa!
Then he blames me for how I so rudely quote his lies. How sad!
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Neville Dempsey
central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
[...]
> That’s not “trolling”. Because if it was, then Edsger W Dijkstra (he of
> “GOTOs Considered Harmful” fame) was a troll. And so was Niklaus Wirth, for
> badmouthing ALGOL 68 and developing Pascal.
Related reading:
"Considered Harmful" Considered Harmful
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/empis/considered_harmful_considered_harmful/
http://jeff.over.bz/?04_Miscellaneous/03_Considered_Harmful
Dijkstra’s Crisis: The End of Algol and Beginning of Software
Engineering, 1968-72 (238KB PDF)
http://www.tomandmaria.com/tom/Writing/DijkstrasCrisis_LeidenDRAFT.pdf
enjoy
NevilleDNZ
--
To download Linux's Algol68 Compiler, Interpreter & Runtime:
* http://sourceforge.net/projects/algol68/files