WANTED: German-to-English Volunteer Translator
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
(preferably a native English speaker)
who can translate into English about 50 pages of technical text in German
explaining the inner workings of a compiler written in Turbo Pascal Version
3.01 running under CP/M (probably "Plus" on a "Schneider" (Name of Amstrad
micros in Germany) micro)?
I can provide a PDF of the original pages.
This compiler, DOIT, was already discussed in the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup.
If you do a search for "DOIT Compiler", Google will find nothing about it in
the "Web". However, you will see its thread appears if you search in "Groups".
(The "Web" is more and more commercial.)
So far, all efforts to find its author, Helmut Richter, failed. The only
remaining solution is to translate the articles, to understand his compiler.
Yours Sincerely,
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
jgharston
> Is anybody out there
> (preferably a native English speaker)
> who can translate into English about 50 pages of technical text in German
50 pages might be a bit too much for me, but I might be able to
have an initial stab.
JGH
Bill Gunshannon
I can't make any promises either but maybe if you could send a couple of
us copies after a quick look maybe we can break it up into more managable
work units.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Bill Gunshannon
we start so that multiple people are not working on the same page at
the same time. I have given it a quick read and it seems rather straight=
forward and should be fairly easy to translate.
I should have some time over the Easter holiday.
Who else in in the pool?
s_dub...@yahoo.com
> Don't know who all Emmanuel sent it to but we should coordinate before
> we start so that multiple people are not working on the same page at
> the same time. I have given it a quick read and it seems rather straight=
> forward and should be fairly easy to translate.
>
> I should have some time over the Easter holiday.
>
> Who else in in the pool?
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Emmanuel was kind enough to send me a copy, I'm not really in the pool
since I don't know German and my z80 code is really rusty. But I'm
interested in any results.
There is a labor intensive way for non-German speakers to get a
translation tho:
Cut and Paste would be easier, from the source code (codegen.txt) a
copy of:
(* Auf Verdacht errechnen *) gives -> 'Calculated on suspicion', for
example.
A type-in from the article gives, for example:
Wahrend der Analyse eines programms muB ein Compiler Informationen
uber die im Quell-text vorkommenden Namen (oder Bezeichner oder
identifier) sammeln und wiederverwenden.
Während der Analyse eines programms muß ein Compiler Informationen
über die im Quell-text vorkommenden Namen (oder Bezeichner oder
identifier) sammeln und wiederverwenden.
German to English translation:
"
While analyzing a program has a compiler information about the text
occurring in the source name (or identifier or identifier) collect and
reuse.
"
Maybe this is useful information for others,
Steve
Bill Gunshannon
s_dub...@yahoo.com writes:
> On Apr 20, 5:41 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> Don't know who all Emmanuel sent it to but we should coordinate before
>> we start so that multiple people are not working on the same page at
>> the same time. I have given it a quick read and it seems rather straight=
>> forward and should be fairly easy to translate.
>>
>> I should have some time over the Easter holiday.
>>
>> Who else in in the pool?
>>
> since I don't know German and my z80 code is really rusty. But I'm
> interested in any results.
> There is a labor intensive way for non-German speakers to get a
> translation tho:
> http://translate.google.com
> Cut and Paste would be easier, from the source code (codegen.txt) a
> copy of:
> (* Auf Verdacht errechnen *) gives -> 'Calculated on suspicion', for
> example.
> A type-in from the article gives, for example:
> Wahrend der Analyse eines programms muB ein Compiler Informationen
> uber die im Quell-text vorkommenden Namen (oder Bezeichner oder
> identifier) sammeln und wiederverwenden.
> Während der Analyse eines programms muß ein Compiler Informationen
> über die im Quell-text vorkommenden Namen (oder Bezeichner oder
> identifier) sammeln und wiederverwenden.
> German to English translation:
> "
> While analyzing a program has a compiler information about the text
> occurring in the source name (or identifier or identifier) collect and
> reuse.
> "
> http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=&ie=UTF-8&text=W%C3%A4hrend+der+Analyse+eines+programms+mu%C3%9F+ein+Compiler+Informationen+%C3%BCber+die+im+Quell-text+vorkommenden+Namen+%28oder+Bezeichner+oder+identifier%29+sammeln+und+wiederverwenden.++%0D%0A&sl=es&tl=en#de|en|W%C3%A4hrend%20der%20Analyse%20eines%20programms%20mu%C3%9F%20ein%20Compiler%20Informationen%20%C3%BCber%20die%20im%20Quell-text%20vorkommenden%20Namen%20(oder%20Bezeichner%20oder%20identifier)%20sammeln%20und%20wiederverwenden.%20%20%0D%0A
> Maybe this is useful information for others,
Having worked with both this and Babelfish I can tell you that you
are very unlikely to get anything usable from the automatic translators.
I usually use them when I am looking for a good laugh.
When you have time to kill somtime try taking a short news article
(especially something techie) and try:
English->German->French->Itallien-Russian->Dutch->French->German->English
See if it bears any resemblence to the original. :-)
Computers are still not and probably never will be as smart as humans.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> When you have time to kill somtime try taking a short news
> article (especially something techie) and try:
>
> English->German->French->Itallien-Russian->Dutch->French->German->English
>
> See if it bears any resemblence to the original. :-)
I have seen many times mentioned (surely, it is a legend) that, when
the Americans tried to automate the translation of Russian information
during the Cold War, a trial on the sentence from the Bible: "The
spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." gave an output of: "The
vodka is strong but the meat is rotten."... Hahaha! "When the legend
becomes fact, print the legend." (In French: "When the legend is more
beautiful than reality, we print the legend...")
s_dub...@yahoo.com
> In article <219450b0-4d88-4324-893d-c2d4dfb25...@hd10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> s_dubrov...@yahoo.com writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 20, 5:41 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> Don't know who all Emmanuel sent it to but we should coordinate before
> >> we start so that multiple people are not working on the same page at
> >> the same time. I have given it a quick read and it seems rather straight=
> >> forward and should be fairly easy to translate.
>
> >> I should have some time over the Easter holiday.
>
> >> Who else in in the pool?
>
> > Emmanuel was kind enough to send me a copy, I'm not really in the pool
> > since I don't know German and my z80 code is really rusty. But I'm
> > interested in any results.
[snipped]
> > Maybe this is useful information for others,
>
> Having worked with both this and Babelfish I can tell you that you
> are very unlikely to get anything usable from the automatic translators.
> I usually use them when I am looking for a good laugh.
> When you have time to kill somtime try taking a short news article
> (especially something techie) and try:
> English->German->French->Itallien-Russian->Dutch->French->German->English
>
> See if it bears any resemblence to the original. :-)
>
> Computers are still not and probably never will be as smart as humans.
>
> bill
>
Perhaps not, but computer driven translation of German is smarter than
_this_ human ;-)
-but for sure, I defer to your translation.
Steve
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jeff Jonas
I anecdotally heard that "out of sight, out of mind"
translated into "blind fool".
I've tried Babelfish and got strange results for a French song
about a ferret. It kept translating it as pipe-cleaner.
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> I've tried Babelfish and got strange results for a French song
> about a ferret. It kept translating it as pipe-cleaner.
Nice example.
In English, the word "ferret" has only one meaning: the French animal
"furet".
However, in French, "furet" has 3 meanings:
1) animal = ferret
2) game = "pass-the-slipper"
3) person = pry (old)
Note that "pipe-cleaner" is not among the official meanings of "furet"
in French dictionaries...
Intrigued by this fact, I checked 5 French dictionaries: they all say
that "furet" has only 3 meaning in French: an animal, a person
behaving like this animal, and a game named after the behavior of this
animal. Not tool has this name.
Bill Gunshannon
As the original article said, these are urban legends. Anyone who has
actually studied languages would know that those possible translations
are absurd. What presents the biggest problems are idiom and anything
that has a culturally connected meaning.
ie. english "buy a pig in a poke" meaning to buy something without really
knowing what you are getting. in German, "a cat in a sack". I don't know
what the french equivalent would be.
Oh, and in english, ferret can also be a verb. One can ferret things
away, that is, hide them or hoard them. I can think of no way in any
language that it could mean a pipe-cleaner unless there is a language
that actually calls pipe-cleaners "ferrets" because they are thin and
furry.
As to the original purpose of this thread, looks like it's just me.
That will definitely slow things down a bit. :-) But I'll try to
get a start on it this weekend as we have a long one for Easter.
And I actually enjoy doing translations. :-)
Tom Lake
away, that is, hide them or hoard them.
I can think of no way in any
language that it could mean a pipe-cleaner unless there is a language
that actually calls pipe-cleaners "ferrets" because they are thin and
furry.
In American English, ferret means to root out (dig out or discover)
something.
The implication is that the something is hiding or stuck in a small place.
A pipe cleaner is something that ferrets out old tobacco residue from a
smoking
pipe.
Tom Lake
Peter Dassow
>
> This compiler, DOIT, was already discussed in the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup.
>
> If you do a search for "DOIT Compiler", Google will find nothing about it in
> the "Web". However, you will see its thread appears if you search in "Groups".
> (The "Web" is more and more commercial.)
Hi Emmanuel,
I know this small compiler very well, because in the time of my
university study in 1984, I participate a course named "Compilerbau"
(german, means "compiler creation"), and we learned to extend a subset
of PASCAL, named PASCAL-S, with several additional language elements.
"DOIT" is very similar to PASCAL-S (although it's using DO and OD, IF
and FI a.s.o.). It was published in the german computer magazine "C'T"
in 1/1986 to 5/1986 (5 issues). So may be you have to ask this magazine
first for a translated article text.
For me, DOIT was not really a masterpiece of code, but quite interesting
for learning how to write or extend a small PASCAL-alike compiler - and
yes, it's generating Z80 (heavily stack oriented) code.
You already asked for this in September, 2004. AFAIK there was nobody
who responded with a translation (due to the effort)...
Regards
Peter
Bill Gunshannon
Well, as someone who smoked a pipe for over 20 years, I never ferreted
anything out of my pipe. :-)
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> "DOIT" is very similar to PASCAL-S (although it's using DO and
> OD, IF and FI a.s.o.). It was published in the german computer
> magazine "C'T" in 1/1986 to 5/1986 (5 issues). So may be you
> have to ask this magazine first for a translated article text.
Well, since you are German (as far as I know), you are, of course, the
perfect volunteer to ask this (and the author's address) to the C'T
magazine...
Many thanks in advance!
Peter Dassow
May be I was not precise enough. What I liked to mention was you (or any
other who is interested in it) have to ask the "Heise Verlag" for
publishing rights if you want to translate it and then distribute the
result.
Regards
Peter
Jeff Jonas
>> about a ferret. It kept translating it as pipe-cleaner.
>Nice example.
"Il court le furet" is the song: http://www.mamalisa.com/?p=118&t=es&c=22
>In English, the word "ferret" has only one meaning:
Well, depending on context.
As a noun, it's the animal.
As a transitive verb, it means
: to hunt (as rabbits) with ferrets
: to search about, "an active and persistent searcher"
to force out of hiding : flush
to find and bring to light by searching
as in "ferret out the answers"
or "he ferreted out the bug in the program"
Ferret also seems to be a pipe cleaning tool, similar to a snake.
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> May be I was not precise enough. What I liked to mention was you
> (or any other who is interested in it) have to ask the "Heise
> Verlag" for publishing rights if you want to translate it and
> then distribute the result.
No, no: you were precise enough, since you are German.
You just forgot that I don't speak German... But, again, since you are
German, I am not surprised.
You also forgot that I have no idea who the publisher of the "C'T
magazine" was/is, and what its address is.
And, anyway, the source code has been available since 2004 and, so
far, nobody complained.
(I even think that a Web site is already hosting the DOIT Compiler...)
Let see, those articles were published in 1984, were re-published in
the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup in 2004, that is to say: 20 years later, and
now, 7 years later, there is a sudden interest in it, and I have
received message from at least 5 persons working on translating the
articles into English.
It will be interesting to see what a commercial publishing house, even
if it is German, has to say about a 27-years old series of articles
for building a compiler running under CP/M.
I would even venture so far as to dare to say that they are no longer
interested in the CP/M "market"... especially the German-speaking one!
Curious, how the interest of people is determined by the price of
something.
Meanwhile, you remain, of course, the perfect volunteer...
Don't be shy: go ahead! "Do it!" Hahaha!
Peter Dassow
> You also forgot that I have no idea who the publisher of the "C'T
> magazine" was/is, and what its address is.
> And, anyway, the source code has been available since 2004 and, so
> far, nobody complained.
At the moment, I can't find any "doit"-source code file.
May be it disappeared :-(
> (I even think that a Web site is already hosting the DOIT Compiler...)
Obviously it's gone.
> Let see, those articles were published in 1984, were re-published in
> the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup in 2004, that is to say: 20 years later, and
> now, 7 years later, there is a sudden interest in it, and I have
> received message from at least 5 persons working on translating the
> articles into English.
It was published in 1986, not 1984. But anyway, it's a long time ago.
> It will be interesting to see what a commercial publishing house, even
> if it is German, has to say about a 27-years old series of articles
> for building a compiler running under CP/M.
Well, I will try to ask them.
> I would even venture so far as to dare to say that they are no longer
> interested in the CP/M "market"... especially the German-speaking one!
Even if this is true (and that's what I am thinking, too), there is an
existing law which regulates or at least control copyrights - also in
germany.
> Curious, how the interest of people is determined by the price of
> something.
>
> Meanwhile, you remain, of course, the perfect volunteer...
>
> Don't be shy: go ahead! "Do it!" Hahaha!
I already tried to OCR'ing it (using Finereader 10, which is IMHO the
best OCR software on the market), but it looks not always good - some
pages especially the source listing pages seems to need a lot of manual
work. So it would be nice if someone already have still the source code
(not the article).
Regards
Peter
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
published.
Meanwhile, I exchanged quite a lot of messages, but privately.
In summary: there are at least 3 persons officially working on the
translation into English of the original articles.
There are 3 others, all Germans, who are interested in this old
compiler (which, apparently, was quite noticed when it was published).
So, I suggested that they work together at understanding what the
original author had in his head when he designed this compiler, and
play with the compiler and the examples, to check that everything work
as published. This way, they will be able to find any misunderstanding
of the original articles, when their translation will be published,
and will be available if someone wants to modify it (one German wants
to port it under CP/M-86, which is a 8086 port of CP/M 2.2).
Maybe this week-end, someone could summarize what has been done so
far?
Bill Gunshannon
well, when a question of copyright violation surfaced I put the
whole thing on hold. If that get's resolved I would be glad to
get back to it. But if one does not have the permission of the
author or publisher, then one should abide by their wishes as
the owners of the IP.
dathadjegedacht
Id I remember correctly I already translated most of the articles.
I will try to find what I did on my old PC.
Regards,
Op maandag 18 april 2011 12:24:24 UTC+2 schreef Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France het volgende: