TLD S-100 motherboard info request
monahanz
Xitan S-100 motherboard. Urgently need it.
Barry Watzman
However, many later motherboards had active or passive termination.
Those might well be DIP resistor terminators rather than ICs.
monahanz
>
> - Show quoted text -
TDL on their Alpha 1 & 2 had a motherboard with MWRT, POC,RESET , and
a single IO Port I/O on their motherboard. The problem I'm having is
something is crapping up the bus. I want this little system to be my
test box rather than try untested cards in my main system.
Herbert Johnson
> TDL on their Alpha 1 & 2 had a motherboard with MWRT, POC,RESET , and
> a single IO Port I/O on their motherboard. The problem I'm having is
> something is crapping up the bus. I want this little system to be my
> test box rather than try untested cards in my main system.
"Xitan Alpha Mainframe Manual" (1977), motherboard and cabinet, 40p
That's listed on my Web site, John - has been for years - at
http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/d_tdl.html
I'd have to look at it to see if it has a schematic. But have you
stopped asking me for docs, since you got your own Web site and
provide docs yourself?
Herb Johnson
still here
retrotechnology.com
dott.Piergiorgio
> I'd have to look at it to see if it has a schematic. But have you
> stopped asking me for docs, since you got your own Web site and
> provide docs yourself?
Herb.... why you ask why one has consideration & respect for your little
business ????
seems to me a good model of correctness when one stop asking for &
buying docs from you if one start to put online docs, to avoid
suspicions and doubts (and more important, the unavoidable heavy flames
here...)
Personally I don't have an idea of what others think of your photocopy
service vs. all these freely available .pdf (I personally prefer the
.pdf) but I always avoid unnecessary flames.
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
monahanz
I guess the test Herb would be if I buy the schematic from you and put
it on
www.S100Computers.com as a .pdf file for others to download at their
leasure and for free.
No, that one I dont have (yet) on the site. The site is only as good
as people who contribute to their fellow hobbiest.
As Newton said, I stand on the shoulders of those before me.
Acknowledgements are many, but the principle
ones are listed at http://s100computers.com/Web%20Sites.htm (including
yourself herb).
Herbert Johnson
this thread. I choose to respond to them as I think they are vague and
misleading, possibly based on a misunderstanding started by someone
else. Otherwise they might be some argument about "free" versus
"paid", which is an argument as old as microcomputing (and so not my
fault). If those interested want facts and not spurious "suspicions"
and "tests", read my post. My apologies for its length and its
intensity, but I'm defending my reputation! - Herb Johnson
monahan wrote:
> Could somebody send me the circuit diagram for the six IC's
>on the TDL/Xitan S-100 motherboard. Urgently need it.
> > Herbert Johnson wrote:
> > > I'd have to look at [the doc offered on my Web site]
> > > to see if it has a schematic. But have you
> > > stopped asking me for docs, since you got your own Web site and
> > > provide docs yourself?
dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>
> > Herb.... why you ask why one has consideration & respect for your little
> > business ????
Why *not* ask for consideration? Other people who have related things
to offer, post here, including myself at various times. We've seen
posts for new Z80 boards, posts about ebay sales, posts about various
projects, new Web sites. John asked publicly for a document, which I
have available, so I responded - and made MY point about my services,
as other have about their's, to far greater length.
> > seems to me a good model of correctness when one stop asking for &
> > buying docs from you if one start to put online docs, to avoid
> > suspicions and doubts (and more important, the unavoidable heavy flames
> > here...)
Excuse me? What are your "suspicions and doubts" about ME? What I do
is well-known, honest and legitimate. And what will be the "heavy
flames" in response, other than the fact that some don't care to
purchase documentation services such as I provide? Certainly, if they
can obtain adequate documentation from on-line sources for free, why
pay me for similar services? No problem. If they can't, I provide an
alternative.
> > Personally I don't have an idea of what others think of your photocopy
> > service vs. all these freely available .pdf (I personally prefer the
> > .pdf) but I always avoid unnecessary flames.
I DO have an idea - all the "thank you"'s from people who recieve
documentation from me. And those who provide docs to me to continue my
services. I'm sending some docs out today. If you prefer a .pdf to
paper documents, then scan the document yourself and make your
own .pdf. If you simply mean that you prefer "free", that's reasonable
if you get what you want. Last I heard, public libraries have not put
bookstores out of business.
But I am not going to hide under a rock. To suggest that I can't
clearly post "I offer documentation for a modest per page fee"; to
offer docs when someone requests them publicly; to suggest what I do
is some kind of suspicious activity, is an insult to ME. I provide
documents which in most cases are of EXCELLENT quality, or at the
least as good as the originals I generally photocopy from. I provide
docs not available elsewhere, free or otherwise. And I do many other
things to support my "customers" AND people who never bought a thing
from me.
The money I get, helps support my costs for what I do. A simple,
economic, capitalistic equation. If some people have trouble with
that, their trouble is not specific to me, I try not to take offense.
Using my name, however, with vague complaints is at least confusing to
me and others.
Again, I've had no complaints from those who obtain copies from me.
But I have an idea what the issue MIGHT be.....
Monahan posted:
> I guess the test Herb would be if I buy the schematic from you and put
> it on www.S100Computers.com as a .pdf file for others to download at their
> leasure and for free.
A "test" of what, John? What you do is entirely your own business!
Including what you do with documents obtained from me. Docs you
ALREADY got from me. John and others: do you think I tell people
"don't scan these docs?" "Don't put them in Web archives?" "take that
document off your site, because I provided a copy?" Did I ever tell
YOU that, John? We have dozens of emails, I don't recall the question.
I've NEVER said ANY of these things, to anybody, that I can recall.
What anyone does with any document obtained from me is entirely THEIR
business. *I do not "own" copies of documents*. I have no rights to
tell people what to do with them. Period. Any more questions?
Some other fellow - no longer active, he had his own "S100manuals" Web
site as it happens - spread this idea around, said this in public
posts: "Don't worry Herb, I won't scan your docs and put them in my
archive." I thought at first it was a kind of compliment. People told
me the same thing when they bought my docs, and I *thanked them* at
the time. But I learned later, it was a kind of *poison*; people got
ANGRY about that notion. IT WAS NEVER EVER MY POLICY. NOw I tell them
"what you do is up to you, not me". I tell them what I've posted here.
So, is *this* what all this "test" and "flames" and "suspicions and
doubts" is all about?
Is this about a consideration to me, that became poisonous to others?
> No, that one I don't have (yet) on the site. The site is only as good
> as people who contribute to their fellow hobbiest.
> As Newton said, I stand on the shoulders of those before me.
> Acknowledgements are many, but the principle
> ones are listed at [my Web site] (including
> yourself herb).
So what's the beef, John? What's this "test"? And what's this "Newton"
and "shoulders of giants" stuff? Your site is months old - my site is
a DECADE old! Are you suggesting that my Web site is NOT
"contributing", just because I offer you a document you wanted
"immediately" for a few DOLLARS? Is this a competition, now? How does
that help you? How does that help me, or anyone interested?
As I said, if the "beef" is only about "I want everything for free,
now", then that has nothing to do with Herb Johnson in particular.
It's an old argument, as old as Bill Gates's "Letter to Hobbyists" to
not copy his BASIC. Now, if those "testing" me or my "contributions"
or my "suspicious" activities are really mad at Bill Gates - keep me
out of that! I am not a billionaire, I am not paying my mortgage by
charging people like John Monahan a few dollars for copies of
documents!
Many people are very happy that I've provided them with time,
documents, hardware, software, a Web site full of information. I get
thanks all the time. I'm sorry that I have to defend myself, when
people publicly suggest there's something sinister about Herb Johnson.
One "aww nuts", as they say, cancels out one thousand "atta boy"s. One
negative opinion or suspicion cancels out many good recommendations.
And it makes me feel bitter, that somehow what I've done for years and
today, might be canceled out, because I don't give enough away for
free, today.
Herb Johnson
retrotechnology.com
dott.Piergiorgio
OK, there's an huge misunderstandment.
Let's begin from the end of my post:
best regards from *ITALY* ,
Dott. Piergiorgio
(emphasis mine)
Now, being from Italy, and having a "name ending with a vowel" imply
that I'm *Italian*, so english is not my mother tongue, and indeed there
was some mistakes in writing. Italian language has many defaults, and is
easy for an Italian doing mistakes in overlooking where subjects, verbs
& objects must be written in English.
I'm rather sad that by omitting key subjects & similar, as instinctual
for an Italian, whose think, well, in Italian, I have incensed you
instead of avoiding a potential flame.
> I'm taking some personal offense, to the responses I got to my post in
> this thread. I choose to respond to them as I think they are vague and
> misleading, possibly based on a misunderstanding started by someone
> else. Otherwise they might be some argument about "free" versus
> "paid", which is an argument as old as microcomputing (and so not my
> fault). If those interested want facts and not spurious "suspicions"
> and "tests", read my post. My apologies for its length and its
> intensity, but I'm defending my reputation! - Herb Johnson
>
>
> dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>>> Herb.... why you ask why one has consideration & respect for your little
>>> business ????
>
> Why *not* ask for consideration? Other people who have related things
> to offer, post here, including myself at various times. We've seen
> posts for new Z80 boards, posts about ebay sales, posts about various
> projects, new Web sites. John asked publicly for a document, which I
> have available, so I responded - and made MY point about my services,
> as other have about their's, to far greater length.
here is a blatant case of "Italian Engrish" these words are a too
literal (and I admit, ill-conceived) rendering of an Italian sort of
"C'mon, fellow, take it easy, he (a third person) don't want to insult,
he meant simply to be nice"
>>> seems to me a good model of correctness when one stop asking for &
>>> buying docs from you if one start to put online docs, to avoid
>>> suspicions and doubts (and more important, the unavoidable heavy flames
>>> here...)
>
> Excuse me? What are your "suspicions and doubts" about ME? What I do
> is well-known, honest and legitimate. And what will be the "heavy
> flames" in response, other than the fact that some don't care to
> purchase documentation services such as I provide? Certainly, if they
> can obtain adequate documentation from on-line sources for free, why
> pay me for similar services? No problem. If they can't, I provide an
> alternative.
Here's the core issue, and is all around Italian grammar's defaults:
putting it in a more direct English, I mean this (emphasized the
defaulted words):" to avoid *other's* (that is, third person plural,
exclusive) suspicions and doubts". so I was referring not to my
(non-existant) suspicions & doubts, but pointing that other can have
some (or many) doubt on your commerce, whose IMVHO is fully legitimate &
well done, albeit I have no direct experience about it.
>>> Personally I don't have an idea of what others think of your photocopy
>>> service vs. all these freely available .pdf (I personally prefer the
>>> .pdf) but I always avoid unnecessary flames.
>
> I DO have an idea - all the "thank you"'s from people who recieve
> documentation from me. And those who provide docs to me to continue my
> services. I'm sending some docs out today. If you prefer a .pdf to
> paper documents, then scan the document yourself and make your
> own .pdf. If you simply mean that you prefer "free", that's reasonable
> if you get what you want. Last I heard, public libraries have not put
> bookstores out of business.
>
> But I am not going to hide under a rock. To suggest that I can't
> clearly post "I offer documentation for a modest per page fee"; to
> offer docs when someone requests them publicly; to suggest what I do
> is some kind of suspicious activity, is an insult to ME. I provide
> documents which in most cases are of EXCELLENT quality, or at the
> least as good as the originals I generally photocopy from. I provide
> docs not available elsewhere, free or otherwise. And I do many other
> things to support my "customers" AND people who never bought a thing
> from me.
I'm sad that after the first (huge) misunderstandment you have taken
nearly all what I have written in the most negative sense. seems that I
haven't emphatized enough the key point, quoting myself from above:
"your photocopy *SERVICE* " "service" in my lexicon is rather distinct
from commerce [originally there was a rather murky definition of
services vs. commerce, whose I have removed to avoid new
misunderstandings] On this basis, there was all based on a
misunderstanding, and I deeply apologize to have involuntarily caused a
waste of your time :(
> The money I get, helps support my costs for what I do. A simple,
> economic, capitalistic equation. If some people have trouble with
> that, their trouble is not specific to me, I try not to take offense.
> Using my name, however, with vague complaints is at least confusing to
> me and others.
The trouble here is that no one has a definitive economical theoretical
analysis (that is, an academic study) of the impact of zero price
(actually epsilon, because the ISP services and net connectivity has his
price) in the demand and offer equation, (I think you refer to this as
"capitalistic equation", but I know the demand/offer equation as "market
equation"...)
Hope to have cleared a bit the meaning of my posts, hopefully in a
better English...
Best regards from Italy, repeat *Italy* ,
Dott. piergiorgio.
monahanz
Herb doesn’t wish to start a flame here, but my biggest frustrating
with getting documents from you (or anybody else for that matter) in
hard copy format is actually time, effort and space.
Time, in that as I work on stuff here I usually need schematics etc
right away. If a have a hardware/board problem it’s very frustrating
to have to wait a week to get the information. By the time I send you
the request, you send back the bill (email), I send you the check and
I get the copy in the mail many days have gone by. Being able to
scan the web and immediately get information is invaluable.
Effort, because I actually have to go to the post office here with a
check, (a local problem I'm sure)
Space in that hard copies in fact do take up a lot of space. Here in
California real estate is expensive, our rooms are limited! The more
"junk" we can avoid the better. I used to live in NJ. I'm sure you
have a large basement. Not so here in earthquake prone CA!
What I meant about Newton etc is that the focus for us (very few)
S-100 hobbyists should be to add to each other’s contributions. In a
perfect world, all and every S100 board manual and picture with a
description, should be available on the web such that any of us can
quickly access information about that board. Since none of us have
all boards and manuals, only if many of us pool our resources will we
have a chance of getting there. I spent almost two solid months
collecting the initial data now pooled on www.S100Computers.com from
many sources, none the least being my own collection. The work of
Majzel Bennet, Howard Harte, David Dunfield, Barry Watzman..etc etc
all went before, adding to this pool. Since then, I have numerous
people e-mail me with pictures/manuals and suggestions to leads to
other sources. I scourer eBay for “new” boards contacting sellers for
pictures and manuals. Some respond, some don’t.
I am delighted to hear that you would not mind if I (or anybody else
for that matter) converts one of your carefully copied manuals to
a .pdf file and posts it on the web. I actually thought you would
have a problem with that and was careful not to do so.
BTW, I in no way wanted to diminish or slight your contribution to the
S100 bus effort. I think I made that clear in the acknowledgements
section of the above site. You have been “at it” longer than most of
us without doubt. Many of us are reborn again S-100 hobbyists! That
said, I do think there has to be a better way of distributing S-100
board information (easier, faster and yes free if it can be).
Herbert Johnson
> Herbert Johnson ha scritto:
>
> OK, there's an huge misunderstandment.
I appreciate your corrections and I apologize for not understanding
your intentions. I accept that due to differences in language and
culture, I mistook your caution about other people's responses, as a
suggestion about YOUR response and beliefs.
However, I think it's fair to say that your statements were too brief.
Also, the nature of representing other people's beliefs or actions -
even if you disagree with them - gives them a kind of weight or value
or support. So it's a challenge to "speak" ABOUT something, but at the
same time not making any claims about the subject yourself. Also,
speaking in the "third person" as you noted you did, is considered
"passive" in English, and considered a weaker argument or position to
take. These contributed to the misunderstanding.
I took time, as you did, to explain this, as it's not the first time a
non-English speaker has said they were misunderstood. I'll try to
think about this and I suggest others do likewise.
You've clarified that you respect and support my activities, as you
have described. Also, you appreciate the concepts of "service" and
"commerce", and recognize as I do some conflicts between "free" and
"paid for" services, without declaring as some do that one is
categorically superior to the other. As you put it:
> The trouble here is that no one has a definitive economical theoretical
> analysis (that is, an academic study) of the impact of zero price...
> in the demand and offer equation, (I think you refer to this as
> "capitalistic equation", but I know the demand/offer equation as "market
> equation"...)
Or "supply, price and demand." It's beyond the topics of comp.os.cpm
to debate this here. Within personal computing, there's considerable
debate about free software versus services to provide or support
software. In the United States today there is discussion called "the
race to the bottom", nations competing for services at ever-lower
prices. I sometimes call it "competing with free" or "when costs go to
zero....". By contrast, I read Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" which
represents the other end of such analysis - when labor was first
"capitalized" and division of labor was "invented". I know these
issues have relevance in Italy's intellectual life, and they also do
in American intellectual and economic life. Misunderstanding abounds,
even without language barriers.
Point being, that part is a struggle far beyond Herb Johnson and John
Monahan - neither of us should consider ourselves morally superior,
for positions and actions we take regarding "free" and "paid for", for
providing similar but not identical services on different terms. But I
am old, and fighting "against" "free", and I get mad when pushed for
not being "free" enough.
> Hope to have cleared a bit the meaning of my posts, hopefully in a
> better English...
>
> Best regards from Italy, repeat *Italy* ,
> Dott. piergiorgio.
My regards as well,
herb johnson
retrotechnology.com
Barry Watzman
"By the time I send you the request, you send back the bill (email)"
"I actually have to go to the post office here with a check"
Anyone ever hear of Pay-Pal? Sure, he still has to send you the hard
copy. But if he takes Pay-Pal (I don't know) and if you use it, he
could have payment in minutes.
monahanz wrote:
>
> Herb doesn�t wish to start a flame here, but my biggest frustrating
> with getting documents from you (or anybody else for that matter) in
> hard copy format is actually time, effort and space.
>
> Time, in that as I work on stuff here I usually need schematics etc
> right away. If a have a hardware/board problem it�s very frustrating
> to have to wait a week to get the information. By the time I send you
> the request, you send back the bill (email), I send you the check and
> I get the copy in the mail many days have gone by. Being able to
> scan the web and immediately get information is invaluable.
> Effort, because I actually have to go to the post office here with a
> check, (a local problem I'm sure)
> Space in that hard copies in fact do take up a lot of space. Here in
> California real estate is expensive, our rooms are limited! The more
> "junk" we can avoid the better. I used to live in NJ. I'm sure you
> have a large basement. Not so here in earthquake prone CA!
>
> What I meant about Newton etc is that the focus for us (very few)
> S-100 hobbyists should be to add to each other�s contributions. In a
> perfect world, all and every S100 board manual and picture with a
> description, should be available on the web such that any of us can
> quickly access information about that board. Since none of us have
> all boards and manuals, only if many of us pool our resources will we
> have a chance of getting there. I spent almost two solid months
> collecting the initial data now pooled on www.S100Computers.com from
> many sources, none the least being my own collection. The work of
> Majzel Bennet, Howard Harte, David Dunfield, Barry Watzman..etc etc
> all went before, adding to this pool. Since then, I have numerous
> people e-mail me with pictures/manuals and suggestions to leads to
> other sources. I scourer eBay for �new� boards contacting sellers for
> pictures and manuals. Some respond, some don�t.
>
> I am delighted to hear that you would not mind if I (or anybody else
> for that matter) converts one of your carefully copied manuals to
> a .pdf file and posts it on the web. I actually thought you would
> have a problem with that and was careful not to do so.
> BTW, I in no way wanted to diminish or slight your contribution to the
> S100 bus effort. I think I made that clear in the acknowledgements
> section of the above site. You have been �at it� longer than most of
dott.Piergiorgio
> Many of your comments relate to the payment process:
>
> "By the time I send you the request, you send back the bill (email)"
>
> "I actually have to go to the post office here with a check"
>
> Anyone ever hear of Pay-Pal? Sure, he still has to send you the hard
> copy. But if he takes Pay-Pal (I don't know) and if you use it, he
> could have payment in minutes.
Hmmm... and perhaps faxing the urgent needed pages ? if Barry (or
whoever else) need urgently a certain detail (things like the actual uF
value of a long-blown capacitor, perhaps ?) this can be accomodated (at
least if the request don't came from Australia or Iceland... :D )
I can be pretty sure Herb has thoroughly catalogued his master copies,
and can quickly look if he has the specific detail and see how pages the
extract is, I guess.
I agree that isn't feasible in the case of urgent need of general info
like about the programming of an obscure card [1] whose manual is in
100+ pages range (whose is possible, with all legacy HW/SW systems still
floating around....) but seems to me a feasible improvement of Herb's
business.....
[1] As little trivia, in Italy is used the word "Carneade" (the name of
an ancient greek philosopher) to indicate an obscure & little known
event or people, from an celebrated page of a major Italian literature
work (Manzoni's "The Betrothed")
Best regards from Italy, and all incidents closed, I hope :)
Dott. Piergiorgio.
dott.Piergiorgio
> things like the actual uF value of a long-blown capacitor
Argh !
I actually mean a capacitor whose blown many times ago....
Sorry, and Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
All...@localhost.net
<dott.Pierg...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it> wrote:
>dott.Piergiorgio ha scritto:
>
>> things like the actual uF value of a long-blown capacitor
>
>Argh !
I understood that perfectly.
>
>I actually mean a capacitor whose blown many times ago....
>
>Sorry, and Best regards from Italy,
>Dott. Piergiorgio.
Hello Dott,
Having studied a number of languages none of which I can converse
in more than trivially I have come to better understand the unique
difficulties of english. You are doing well. I think we here in
USA forget this is an international forum and it never ceases to
impress me the number of non-USA people that can speak multiple
languages. It also distresses me that there is lack of latitude for
less than common phrasing or a need to gather context from
reading.
Be of good cheer and continue to press on.
Allison
monahanz
> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:18:27 +0100, "dott.Piergiorgio"
>
Thanks everybody for input on this request. I got the information in a
file from
http://www.computerhistory.org/
Used:-
Accession Number
102653824
A very interesting site. A great place to visit also BTW if you live
in the SF bay area. Entrance is free!
In case anybody else need it in the future it can be see at
http://s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/TDL/History/TDL%20History.htm
down near the bottom of the page.
Herbert Johnson
>
> > Anyone ever hear of Pay-Pal? Sure, he still has to send you the hard
> > copy. But if he takes Pay-Pal (I don't know) and if you use it, he
> > could have payment in minutes.
"dott.Piergiorgio" wrote:
>
> Hmmm... and perhaps faxing the urgent needed pages ? if Barry (or
> whoever else) need urgently a certain detail (things like the actual uF
> value of a blown capacitor, perhaps..
Anyone with questions about my services, can ask me. These are private
transactions, I respect people's privacy. If something is needed fast,
there are plenty of fast shippers, fast payment services beyond
PayPal.
During a few days of deliberate delay, I did not respond in any detail
to John Monahan's posts about my services, for a number of reasons. I
see that no one else seems to care about any issues John raised, or I
- other than non-English speaker's issues, or speed of transactions. I
want to respond to John's general comments. But I don't want to make
him my enemy by making him look bad, or make ME look bad in defending
myself. Also, I refuse to be a martyr over the issue of "free" versus
"paid for".
So simply put, here's some response.
I do more than provide copies of documents. My Web site and my
discussions with those who contact me provide some clues about that -
look at my site! Much of my content, is the work of others. I provide
personal encouragement, to those who work on hardware, on these old CP/
M computers. The documents I provide are of good quality, better than
some PDF's - I hear that ALL THE TIME. John himself knows these
benefits, first-hand, from me. And, he admits others he's asked, won't
provide even individual documents.
Those services require time and resources, and a Web site. My time is
not free, I have costs, and the pittance I get from good photocopies
of manuals covers some of that. I sell hardware and other things, that
pays much more. I'm not obliged to make it all a mouse click away, any
more than a mouse-click will fix a S-100 card.
I support John and other people, who are supporting the repair,
restoration and use of old computers. I'm not going to make them my
competitors, or my enemies, or "race to the bottom" of what can be
provided "now", for "free". I hope they respect my work, not call
themselves superior, and not chase me away over dollars and delays.
Herb Johnson
retrotechnology.com
to email me, go to my Web site, not "gmail"
Barry Watzman
morphed into a "tapestry") be "TDL S-100 motherboard ..."? I know that
there was a TDL (Technical Design Labs). There may have been a TLD, but
I'm guessing it's a typo.