From: s...@alcor.concordia.ca (Sylvain Robitaille)
Subject: Re: "Look at the Help pages!"
Date: 1998/07/06
Message-ID: <slrn6q0ivh.4ns.syl@elvira.rodents.montreal.qc.ca>
X-Deja-AN: 368863179
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980621231224.9015A-100000@ganymede.cs.mun.ca> <Pine.OSF.3.96.980627135939.7791C-100000@ermine.ox.ac.uk> <slrn6prdeu.72n.syl@elvira.rodents.montreal.qc.ca> <Pine.OSF.3.96.980704184405.26201B-100000@ermine.ox.ac.uk>
Organization: Concordia University -- Montreal, Quebec, Canada
NNTP-Posting-User: news
Newsgroups: comp.mail.pine


[ Strange, mut Mr. King's message seems to have vanished from our news
  server, or possibly it hasn't gotten here yet, in any case ... ]

On 4 Jul 1998, I wrote:

Syl> Got to the Setup|Config menu, and put the highlite bar on the
Syl> customized-hdrs item. Now press '?'. Surprise! Now do the same for
Syl> any other item you find might be interesting. Note that this is
Syl> context sensitive.

Peter J King replied (both in email and on Usenet, which I find rather
obnoxious. You see, Mr. King, here's how it works: you post to Usenet, I
followup on Usenet, and I will see your further followup on Usenet. I
don't need to see two copies of your message! -- now back to our regularly
scheduled posting ...)

Pjk> Exactly the sort of unpleasant, patronising sarcasm combined with
Pjk> thorough falsity about which I was complaining.  There is no
Pjk> customised-hdrs item in my Setup|Config menu.  If you'd bothered to
Pjk> read what I said, you'd have known that.

Of course there isn't. I must have made it up just to spite you. In fact
that's what everybody does. We just make things up. Usually we get lucky
and make stuff up that people can use, but it seems this time there was a
glitch.

Now that we've cleared that up, I'll assume that the above is simply a
typo and that you really do know how to spell 'customized', since that
couldn't possibly be the real problem.

I *did* bother to read what you said, (did you?):

Pjk> For example, in the version of Pine 3.96 which I'm using, this
Pjk> setup/config procedure won't work - it appears to be impossible to
Pjk> set a "Reply-To:" value.  If it is possible, it's not in the normal
Pjk> Config pages, nor in any of the available help pages.  The same
Pjk> goes for other changes raised by other people who've been met with
Pjk> the same, lazy, "why don't use use the help files" response.

Exactly *where* does that indicate that you don't have a 'customized-hdrs'
menu item in the Setup|Config menu? You simply indicate that as far as you
can tell what we're saying isn't true.

If you really *don't* have that menu item, then perhaps you should
complain to your local support staff, instead of whining on this
newsgroup. (Advice I gave in my previous post.) The "normal Config pages"
*do* include this item. As I also mentioned in my previous post, you might
obtain a copy of the Pine distribution and look it over to see for
yourself.

By the way, with a little imagination (and half a clue), you might have
also tried 'default-composer-hdrs'. (If you don't have that one either,
DON'T COMPLAIN TO ME; Contact your local support staff.)

Pjk> You'd also have known that the problem in question wasn't mine - that
Pjk> I was responding to the unpleasant answers to someone else.

That much I knew. You pointed out however, that the help that was provided
would not have worked in your case, and I tried to present possible
suggestions as to how you could deal with that. You seem to have
completely ignored most of my post, and stuck to one small part which you
were unable to read without prejudice. That's too bad.

Pjk> I was merely pointing out that the sarcastiacally, patronisingly
Pjk> expressed answers would have been useless to me, because they made
Pjk> false and patronising assumptions - just as you've done here.

The only assumptions being made, (I'm speaking for myself of course, but
I'd be surprised if I was the only one making these assumptions), is that
the poster a) can read, b) is using a relatively recent version of Pine,
and c) has access to readily available information (such as the Pine web
pages at Washington University).

I make no assumptions regarding an installation being non-standard. In
cases like that, the poster should explain these things rather than simply
whine about the help available on the newsgroup.

Syl> [ obnoxious sig manually deleted ]

Pjk> A three-line, purely informative signature is "obnoxious"?

It's obnoxious not because of its content, but because you refuse to
comply to accepted standards. For what it's worth, my newsreader displays
it regardless, and I even have to manually remove it from followups,
regardless. However, consideration for others would dictate that you
follow established standards, so that people could make use of the
features available on the software of their choice, (features that depend
on these standards, that is.)

Pjk> On no other newsgroup, from no other poster to Usenet or e-mail
Pjk> groups, from *no-one* outside this group have I ever encountered
Pjk> this sort of comment.  I wonder if there's not a rather small (and
Pjk> obsessed) sub-culture here?

Perhaps you don't frequent other newsgroups where the norm is to follow
standards. Just because others do (or accept) something, doesn't make it
right. The accepted standard is the use of a separator line before the
signature, and several people in this group have indicated that they would
prefer if you complied with that standard. It's not too much to ask.

Pjk> Why doesn't it surprise me that you're a Systems Manager?

Perhaps because I give of my *own* time to try and help those that truly
have tried to help themselves and ran into problems. Maybe because I'm
willing to share knowledge with those that have indicated a desire to
learn. I'm simply not willing to hold people's hands and read the
documentation to them, and I won't apologize for that.

Pjk> The double-dash, which I'd added to my signature before I really
Pjk> thought about it, has been removed.  So you'll have the awful
Pjk> experience of seeing that obnoxious signature again.  I hope that it
Pjk> doesn't keep you up at nights or make you wet the bed.

Speaking of "unpleasant, patronising sarcasm combined with thorough
falsity" as well as "false and patronising assumptions". Imagine that. Pot
calls kettle black.

My instinct here of course is to begin hurling insults at you, and point
out how much of a hypocritical asshole you obviously are, but I won't do
that. I won't even simplify it to calling you a jerk, which you clearly
are. No, instead I'll thank you. Thank you for making me appreciate that
we don't have complete fools like you using our systems.

[ obnoxious sig manually deleted ]
-- 
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Sylvain Robitaille                              s...@alcor.concordia.ca

Systems Manager                                   Concordia University
Instructional & Information Technology        Montreal, Quebec, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------