Mergery : new minor snag
Beartooth
I have a role set up which sends mail with my adelphia address in the
From: -- but of course Lserv is still in the headers. And it turns out
several ISPs, including at least one big one, have filters that catch
that, call it relaying, and (if I'm lucky) bounce it back; others, I
suspect strongly, simply route it to the bitbucket.
So I can't really send that way, at least with any reliability -- even if
what I send is actually a reply to something sent to me from usenet.
There's a straightforward workaround, of course. All I have to do is not
be in Adel-inbox, and log directly into adelphia.net, so as to send or
reply from there.
It's no big deal, and probably not up yet even if we do deal with it; but
I thought I better mention it while I think of it. I'll forget, sure as
shootin'.
--
Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck, Double Retiree,
Not Quite Clueless Linux Power User : Fedora Core 5 [etc]
I have precious (very precious) little idea where up is.
NM Public
>
> I have a role set up which sends mail with my adelphia address
> in the From: -- but of course Lserv is still in the headers.
> And it turns out several ISPs, including at least one big one,
> have filters that catch that, call it relaying, and (if I'm
> lucky) bounce it back; others, I suspect strongly, simply route
> it to the bitbucket.
You should be able to fix this by specifying the adelphia
outgoing SMTP server in this Pine role. This is a problem that
*everyone* is having. Make sure that the adelphia outgoing SMTP
server supports SMTP AUTH and then specify your adelphia user
name in the smtp-server setting, e.g.:
smtp.adelphia.com/user=beartooth
If you have problems, email adelphia support and ask them this
question:
Do you support SMTP AUTH?
Good luck,
Nancy
--
Nancy McGough
Infinite Ink: <http://www.ii.com/>
Bookmarks & Blog: <http://deflexion.com/>
r royar
> Sur 2006-06-11, Beartooth skribis:
>>
>> I have a role set up which sends mail with my adelphia address in the
>> From: -- but of course Lserv is still in the headers. And it turns out
>> several ISPs, including at least one big one, have filters that catch
>> that, call it relaying, and (if I'm lucky) bounce it back; others, I
>> suspect strongly, simply route it to the bitbucket.
>
>
> You should be able to fix this by specifying the adelphia outgoing SMTP
> server in this Pine role. This is a problem that *everyone* is having. Make
> sure that the adelphia outgoing SMTP server supports SMTP AUTH and then
> specify your adelphia user name in the smtp-server setting, e.g.:
>
> smtp.adelphia.com/user=beartooth
>
> If you have problems, email adelphia support and ask them this question:
>
> Do you support SMTP AUTH?
Not Beartooth, but another Adelphia consumer.
Adelphia announced it would institute SMTP AUTH about two years ago, but
it never rolled out. It works in some markets, but in others the server
advertises the ability but rejects the request. Actually, I am assuming
it works in some markets only because users have strongly asserted that
it does. I suspect they are just fooled by an MUA that ignores the
error. It does not work in my area.telnet
--
Robert Delius Royar The email address is valid as it is written.
Beartooth
Sounds just like Adelphia! Supposing I found a support address (unlikely)
and actually got a reply (more unlikely), I doubt it would mean anything,
whatever it said. We (Western Virginia) had a case last fall where their
telephone support kept telling everyone the trouble must be at the
customer end -- till a couple of local linux technoids managed to reach a
tech or two who knew straight up and proved otherwise to them; _then_ it
turned out Adelphia was trying to upgrade its DNS and had failed to tell
its own techs so.
So suppose I just do what Nancy suggests, and it turns out there is no
support here -- what will happen? IOW, is it a good idea to just try it?
Ask maybe on bburg.general and vatech.general? Spit and forget? Or is it
the lesser evil to wait (years, maybe) till another broadband provider
turns up?
r royar
Since they never sent customers a notice that AUTH was in place, and to
connect when AUTH is required means changing your mailer's account
information (i.e. adding a user name and password), I believe that they
do not support SMTP AUTH. If your connection works now without it, then
if you add it, you will just see errors and an inability to connect.
Of course that is no big deal since the work to change the connection is
minor. So you could test to see if the server mail.adelphia.net
supports it.
I imagine that when the Webmail program was received so well, and it
does allow roaming, they cancelled plans to try to train all the users
how to configure Outlook correctly.
NM Public
>
> So suppose I just do what Nancy suggests, and it turns out
> there is no support here -- what will happen? IOW, is it a good
> idea to just try it? Ask maybe on bburg.general and
> vatech.general? Spit and forget? Or is it the lesser evil to
> wait (years, maybe) till another broadband provider turns up?
I think you should stop using your adelphia email address. Even
if they provided good email service, it is never a good idea to
lock yourself in to an Internet Access Provider. To transition
away from your Adelphia email address, do the following:
1] Get another email address that you can use for spam-harvesting
situations, e.g., for posting to Usenet.
2] Quit using the Adelphia email address.
3] When you reply to someone who emailed you at your Adelphia
address, reply using a role that uses a non-Adelphia 'From:'
address and tell the person to update their address book because
you are going to kill your Adelphia address. You can automate
this via a Pine role with a role-specific signature.
I have done a lot of research for #1. One possible solution is to
get a FastMail.FM free guest account. They have a nice IMAP
system that works well with Pine.
If you really want to get serious about email, I recommend that
you get your own domain name. But that, almost surely, is a
project for a later date!
Just some ideas,
Beartooth
>
> I think you should stop using your adelphia email address. Even if they
> provided good email service, it is never a good idea to lock yourself in
> to an Internet Access Provider.
I would dearly love to -- and I keep watching for any substitute. Afaik,
Adelphia is the only source of broadband at my location.(I have
ordered DSL three times, and gotten only infuriating results. I have trees
in the way of a satellite, and so-called wireless broadband has no tower
with a line of sight; cell-phone broadband hasn't reached me yet, either.)
When that changes, I'll be off adelphia like a shot; but
even adelphia is better than dialup.
NM Public
You misunderstood what I suggested Beartooth. I'll try again...
It is *never* a good idea to use your Internet Access
*Access* Provider as your email service provider.
Your Internet Access Provider is Adelphia. My Internet Access
Provider is AOL. I have never used AOL as my email service
provider. My recommendation is that you continue to use Adelphia
as your Internet Access Provider, but find a new email service
provider.
Does that make sense? If not, I (or someone else) can try to
explain how TCP/IP and Internet networking in general works.
It seems that you have a deep misunderstanding about how
networking works. This is the root of your misunderstanding about
what we're trying to do with IMAP and with what I'm now
suggesting you do with separating your access provider and your
email provider.
I would really appreciate it if someone else could explain this
because, at the moment, I am at a loss as to how to explain this
to someone who has not been living & breathing "boxes & arrows"
(as I have) for a long time.
Thank you!
NM Public
>
> It is *never* a good idea to use your Internet
Here's a little more about this: Back in the 1990s, lots of
people, including me, used their Internet *Access* Provider (IAP)
as their email service provider. But now, in 2006, it's not a
good idea. Why? Because...
1) The spam/virus/phish problem is out of control and most
Internet *Access* Providers (IAP) are not experts in this area
and are doing a poor job at it.
2) You do not want to be locked in to your IAP. If their domain
name is part of your email address, you will probably need to pay
them to continue to get your email (that uses their domain name)
even after you switch to a different IAP.
Now a little bit about Internet networking: When you are
connected to the Internet, you can use various protocols (FTP,
HTTP, etc.) to access various servers anywhere on the Internet.
Here's a picture (imagine boxes around the rightmost objects):
+--FTP---ftp site
|
+--HTTP--web page
|
+--NNTP--NNTP groups
Beartooth's computer -|
+--SMTP--outgoing mail server
|
+--IMAP--mailbox
|
+--POP---mailbox
It does not matter where any of these servers are as long as they
are on the Internet. It does not matter who you use as your
Internet *Access* Provider, it could be Adelphia, AOL, BT here in
London, an Internet cafe anywhere in the world, etc.
The thing that might be part of Beartooth's confusion is that
back in the old days, SMTP servers let anyone on a particular
range of IP addresses use the SMTP server. But nowadays any
decent email service provider requires authentication that uses a
username. This is what SMTP AUTH is and the fact that Adelphia
does not support SMTP AUTH is proof, in my mind, that they suck
as an email service provider.
If you get a good email service provider, they will support SMTP
AUTH and you will be able to use it no matter who you are using
as your Internet Access Provider.
So, in summary, even though you are stuck with a sucky IAP, you
can *and should* get a good email service provider and quit using
the Adelphia SMTP and POP servers.
Does this make sense?? If anyone has anything to add to clarify
this, please do!
Thank you,
Beartooth
>> On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:57:46 +0100, NM Public wrote:
>>>
>>> I think you should stop using your adelphia email address.
[...]
> You misunderstood what I suggested, Beartooth.
I can easily believe that, alas! I'm perfectly serious about the "not
quite clueless power user" bit, and not in irony.
> I'll try again...
>
> It is *never* a good idea to use your Internet Access
> *Access* Provider as your email service provider.
>
> Your Internet Access Provider is Adelphia. My Internet Access
> Provider is AOL. I have never used AOL as my email service
> provider. My recommendation is that you continue to use Adelphia
> as your Internet Access Provider, but find a new email service
> provider.
You mean a third one, other than Lserv.com, right? I've always used
adelphia mail -- and its predecessors wherever else I've lived, btw -- as
little as I well could with what knowledge I have.
> Does that make sense? If not, I (or someone else) can try to
> explain how TCP/IP and Internet networking in general works.
Well, let my offer the view from under the rock. Maybe it'll at least make
more apparent what my misunderstanding is and where it comes from, in the
hope that may help.
The main reason I'm using adelphia email at all is that, in order to
access adelphia's newsfeed (subcontracted to giganews) with Pan (to which
I am as committed for usenet as I am to Pine for email), afaik I have to
give my adelphia address and password -- and Pan then also uses that as my
posting address -- which is of course what makes adelphia primarily a
spamtrap.
So if I were to abandon that address, would Pan be able to use some other
in some way?? Or would I have to find another newsfeed provider??
Note that I do not ask about following usenet by any other reader,
including Pine.
Maybe that would be an answer. Maybe using Outlook Express (the ultimate
electronic abomination, imnsho), or Eudora, or some other mailer, would be
an answer to some problem -- but not one of any interest to me. Sorry
about that; if it makes me an old stick in the mud, I can only shrug.
Otoh, if one of my misunderstandings is my conclusion that Pan is forcing
me to check adelphia email for desireable stuff, I'll be more than glad to
rectify it. I have already asked on gmane's pan-user list, in fact.
> It seems that you have a deep misunderstanding about how
> networking works. This is the root of your misunderstanding about
> what we're trying to do with IMAP and with what I'm now
> suggesting you do with separating your access provider and your
> email provider.
Networking to me, I'm afraid, is something done by librarians a/o
professors in hallways. I wasn't aware of being engaged in it in any
electronic sense, beyond using the Net instead of hallways and voices.
> I would really appreciate it if someone else could explain this
> because, at the moment, I am at a loss as to how to explain this
> to someone who has not been living & breathing "boxes & arrows"
> (as I have) for a long time.
One of the reasons I keep doing many of the things I do online is
a discovery I made in my last job.
Electronically advanced people constantly run into the trouble you
speak of. Just as a library cataloger may be hard put to remember what it
was like not to know the nature and uses of an authority record, or a
grammarian those of the pluperfect subjunctive, so too there are times
when some Alpha Plus Technoids have trouble recalling or imagining the
difficulties of the uninitiated.
So honchos where I worked, to my great surprise, would actually come
to me just because of troubles I could at least articulate better than
some others. I hope something like that proves in the long run to be of
more benefit to your project than it is hair-tearing frustration.
If it's any consolation, things could be still worse. I have a friend, a
professor well-known in his field, who refuses even to try anything but
M$, despite much knowledge of alternatives.
--
Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck, Double Retiree,
Not Quite Clueless Linux Power User -- with precious (very
Beartooth
> Sur 2006-06-16, NM Public skribis:
>>
>> It is *never* a good idea to use your Internet
>> *Access* Provider as your email service provider.
>
> Now a little bit about Internet networking: When you are
> connected to the Internet, you can use various protocols (FTP,
> HTTP, etc.) to access various servers anywhere on the Internet.
> Here's a picture (imagine boxes around the rightmost objects):
>
>
>
> +--FTP---ftp site
> |
> +--HTTP--web page
> |
> +--NNTP--NNTP groups
> Beartooth's computer -|
> +--SMTP--outgoing mail server
> |
> +--IMAP--mailbox
> |
> +--POP---mailbox
>
>
>
> It does not matter where any of these servers are as long as they
> are on the Internet. It does not matter who you use as your
> Internet *Access* Provider, it could be Adelphia, AOL, BT here in
> London, an Internet cafe anywhere in the world, etc.
[...]
> Does this make sense?? If anyone has anything to add to clarify
> this, please do!
That may simplify the problem I just posted about. Pan is very good about
accessing several newsfeeds; I use Giganews (through adelphia), gmane,
grc, and opera. Neither gmane nor opera requires authorization, and what
grc requires is no obstacle to my access. Unfortunately, several of my
main groups -- including comp.mail.pine, as well as such specialized ones
as bburg.general and alt.satellite.gps.garmin -- are not on the other
three. If there's a free (or very cheap) newsserver somewhere that would
carry the groups I go to giganews for, I think I could indeed get rid of
adelphia email. In fact, I already have it autoforwarding to titan, and
could presumable create a role for replies and forwards which would
include a short boilerplate paragraph giving a new address.
So is there an un-giganews??
Beartooth
> On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:49:23 +0100, NM Public wrote:
[...]
>> Your Internet Access Provider is Adelphia. My Internet Access
>> Provider is AOL. I have never used AOL as my email service
>> provider. My recommendation is that you continue to use Adelphia
>> as your Internet Access Provider, but find a new email service
>> provider.
>
> You mean a third one, other than Lserv.com, right? I've always used
> adelphia mail -- and its predecessors wherever else I've lived, btw -- as
> little as I well could with what knowledge I have.
[...]
> ...with Pan afaik I have to
> give my adelphia address and password -- and Pan then also uses that as my
> posting address ...
[...]
> Otoh, if one of my misunderstandings is my conclusion that Pan is forcing
> me to check adelphia email for desireable stuff, I'll be more than glad to
> rectify it. I have already asked on gmane's pan-user list, in fact.
[...]
Here's some feedback from pan.users, already :
>> So if I were to abandon that address, would Pan be able to
>> use some other in some way?? Or would I have to find another
>> newsfeed provider??
>
> I have to use my userId and password to access my news server and I
> put that info in the "News Servers" and I put an invalid address in
> "Posting Profiles" and it works and I don't get any spam from my
> newsgroup posts.
Hmmm .... And that works?? IOW, Pan requires *something*, but it doesn't
have to be valid? Hmmm ... I suppose I could then put a transparently
munged one in my .sig ....
What's the current thinking on transparently munged addresses??
--
Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck, Double Retiree,
Not Quite Clueless Linux Power User : Fedora Core 5 [etc]
I have precious (very precious) little idea where up is.
NM Public
>>
>> I have to use my userId and password to access my news server
>> and I put that info in the "News Servers" and I put an invalid
>> address in "Posting Profiles" and it works and I don't get any
>> spam from my newsgroup posts.
>
> Hmmm .... And that works?? IOW, Pan requires *something*, but
> it doesn't have to be valid? Hmmm ... I suppose I could then
> put a transparently munged one in my .sig ....
>
> What's the current thinking on transparently munged addresses??
I've written about this here:
<http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/changing_from/#invalid>
--- begin excerpt ---
If You Insist on Using a Bogus From Header
If you insist on using a bogus From header, use an address that
does not now exist and will never exist in the future. For
example, you could use...
* a domain name that ends in .invalid, which is a reserved
top-level domain that is discussed on this GNKSA (The Good
Net-Keeping Seal of Approval) page and in RFC 2606, Reserved Top
Level DNS Names. [...]
--- end excerpt ---
I'm also interested in hearing what people think about this these
days.
Good luck with this part of the transition project Beartooth!
Nancy
(still using a real live email address in Usenet)
Beartooth
>> Hmmm .... And that works?? IOW, Pan requires *something*, but
>> it doesn't have to be valid? Hmmm ... I suppose I could then
>> put a transparently munged one in my .sig ....
>>
>> What's the current thinking on transparently munged addresses??
>
>
> I've written about this here:
>
> <http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/changing_from/#invalid>
>
>
> --- begin excerpt ---
>
> If You Insist on Using a Bogus From Header
>
> If you insist on using a bogus From header, use an address that
> does not now exist and will never exist in the future. For
> example, you could use...
>
> * a domain name that ends in .invalid, which is a reserved
> top-level domain that is discussed on this GNKSA (The Good
> Net-Keeping Seal of Approval) page and in RFC 2606, Reserved Top
> Level DNS Names. [...]
>
> --- end excerpt ---
I was thinnking rather of using a real but slightly disguised address --
such as "<Beartooth (at) adelphia.net>" An unthinking "reply by email"
would likely never get past the sending ISP; but the bounce would make it
apparent why, even if the post being replied to had evaporated.
Another thing I don't recall whether I mentioned. When I try to send from
adelphia using titan, with a From: line showing adelphia, I get either
bounces (when I'm lucky) saying the recipient's ISP doesn't accept relayed
messages -- or else, afaict, the message just goes into a bitbucket. In
either case, of course, the attempt is a waste of electrons.
So, unless there's another way, I can't reply to a message sent to
adelphia, using titan, except by displaying my titan address.
> I'm also interested in hearing what people think about this these days.
>
> Good luck with this part of the transition project Beartooth!
> Nancy
> (still using a real live email address in Usenet)
Are you? I tried at one point to send to it, asking whether certain info
for this project were safe to post, without exposing Lserv to risk -- and
afaict, you never got it.
NM Public
> I was thinnking rather of using a real but slightly disguised address --
> such as "<Beartooth (at) adelphia.net>" An unthinking "reply by email"
> would likely never get past the sending ISP; but the bounce would make it
> apparent why, even if the post being replied to had evaporated.
It's up to you -- just don't use a real address that some real
person might use in the future!
> Another thing I don't recall whether I mentioned. When I try to
> send from adelphia using titan, with a From: line showing
> adelphia, I get either bounces (when I'm lucky) saying the
> recipient's ISP doesn't accept relayed messages -- or else,
> afaict, the message just goes into a bitbucket. In either case,
> of course, the attempt is a waste of electrons.
>
> So, unless there's another way, I can't reply to a message sent
> to adelphia, using titan, except by displaying my titan
> address.
Yes, I know. That's why I suggested you never use your adelphia
address in a From: header again. You need to decide what you want
address to use for public postings, e.g, mailing lists. I have
lots of possibilitis on my IMAP Service Providers page. Make sure
you choose a provider who offers SMTP AUTH. (If titan supported
SMTP AUTH, we wouldn't need to move you away from their email
services.)
If Ddave's system has good spam filtering, you could just use
your Lserv email address. I like to use a different address for
public postings, so I understand if you want to use someone else
for your public address. FastMail.FM is a good option, but in
order to get SMTP AUTH you need to pay a one-time fee (I think
$15).
Actually, probably no decent provider is going to give SMTP AUTH
away for free because it would become a target for drive by
spammers.
>> Nancy
>> (still using a real live email address in Usenet)
>
> Are you? I tried at one point to send to it, asking whether
> certain info for this project were safe to post, without
> exposing Lserv to risk -- and afaict, you never got it.
Oops, sorry. I rarely answer Pine-support questions in email and
I probably ignored it because I read it too quickly and thought
it was a Pine-support question that would make more sense here.
I don't think we're exposing Lserv to any *new* risk -- just make
sure you have a strong password on Lserv and change it regularly!
The bad guys are almost certainly already pounding on that
server, as they are on every computer on the Net.
Bye for now,
Nancy
Beartooth
>(If titan supported
> SMTP AUTH, we wouldn't need to move you away from their email
> services.)
>
> If Ddave's system has good spam filtering, you could just use
> your Lserv email address. I like to use a different address for
> public postings, so I understand if you want to use someone else
> for your public address. FastMail.FM is a good option, but in
> order to get SMTP AUTH you need to pay a one-time fee (I think
> $15).
I'm beginning to think Ddave must be off on vacation or something. I do
have a shell account; so could *I* fin the answers we need, including
about SMTP AUTH by means of user commands that don't require root access?
--
Beartooth Staffwright, Wordcrafty Squirreler
FC5; Pine 4.64, Pan 0.14.2.91; Privoxy 3.0.3; CXO 5.0.1
Dillo 0.8.5, Opera 8.54, Firefox 1.5, Galeon 2.0.1
Remember I have little idea what I am talking about.
NM Public
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:50:58 +0100, NM Public wrote:
>
>> (If titan supported
>> SMTP AUTH, we wouldn't need to move you away from their email
>> services.)
The above is a typo, I meant to say this
(If *Adelphia* supported SMTP AUTH, we wouldn't need to move you
away from their (Adelphia's) email services.)
>> If Ddave's system has good spam filtering, you could just use
>> your Lserv email address. I like to use a different address
>> for public postings, so I understand if you want to use
>> someone else for your public address. FastMail.FM is a good
>> option, but in order to get SMTP AUTH you need to pay a
>> one-time fee (I think $15).
>
> I'm beginning to think Ddave must be off on vacation or
> something. I do have a shell account; so could *I* fin the
> answers we need, including about SMTP AUTH by means of user
> commands that don't require root access?
My guess is that Ddave's system *does* support SMTP AUTH. Can you
run pine on titan and go the the Pine Config screen by typing:
MSC
And copy & paste the smpt-server value into a followup to this
message.
Thanks!
Beartooth
>> I'm beginning to think Ddave must be off on vacation or
>> something. I do have a shell account; so could *I* fin the
>> answers we need, including about SMTP AUTH by means of user
>> commands that don't require root access?
>
> My guess is that Ddave's system *does* support SMTP AUTH. Can you
> run pine on titan and go the the Pine Config screen by typing:
>
> MSC
>
> And copy & paste the smpt-server value into a followup to this
> message.
personal-name = Beartooth
user-domain = LServ.Com
smtp-server = <No Value Set>
nntp-server = <No Value Set>
NM Public
>>
>> My guess is that Ddave's system *does* support SMTP AUTH. Can you
>> run pine on titan and go the the Pine Config screen by typing:
>>
>> MSC
>>
>> And copy & paste the smpt-server value into a followup to this
>> message.
>
> personal-name = Beartooth
> user-domain = LServ.Com
> smtp-server = <No Value Set>
> nntp-server = <No Value Set>
OK. Next run 'pine' on your local computer that has the special
'pine' alias we created and do the same thing: MSC and copy &
paste the smtp-server into a followup to this message.
Beartooth
> Sur 2006-06-17, Beartooth skribis:
>>>
>>> My guess is that Ddave's system *does* support SMTP AUTH. Can you
>>> run pine on titan and go the the Pine Config screen by typing:
>>>
>>> MSC
>>>
>>> And copy & paste the smpt-server value into a followup to this
>>> message.
>>
>> personal-name = Beartooth
>> user-domain = LServ.Com
>> smtp-server = <No Value Set>
>> nntp-server = <No Value Set>
>
>
> OK. Next run 'pine' on your local computer that has the special
> 'pine' alias we created and do the same thing: MSC and copy &
> paste the smtp-server into a followup to this message.
personal-name = Beartooth
user-domain = LServ.Com
smtp-server = <No Value Set>
nntp-server = <No Value Set>
Should it have been different?
NM Public
>>> personal-name = Beartooth
>>> user-domain = LServ.Com
>>> smtp-server = <No Value Set>
>>> nntp-server = <No Value Set>
>>
>>
>> OK. Next run 'pine' on your local computer that has the special
>> 'pine' alias we created and do the same thing: MSC and copy &
>> paste the smtp-server into a followup to this message.
>
>
> personal-name = Beartooth
> user-domain = LServ.Com
> smtp-server = <No Value Set>
> nntp-server = <No Value Set>
>
> Should it have been different?
Not necessarily, but it *could* be. E.g., if one of the following
is on the machine and has an smtp-server specified:
pine.conf
.pinercex
pine.conf.fixed
I need to get off the Net now, but here is a job for you
Beartooth that will help me tomorrow...
* Please open each of your roles and copy & paste the
smtp-server, if it exists, into a followup to this message. For
example, please post something like the following:
role1
smtp1.example.com
role2
smtp2.example.net
My guess is that none of these have an smpt-server setting, but I
need to be sure.
* Also, please tell me how many roles you have set up.
* Finally, please decide on a backup email service provider.
There are many reasons why it will be useful for you to have 2
email service providers. Another possibility, other than the
FastMail.FM account, I suggested in a previous message is...
Gmail
I wouldn't use them as my primary email service provider, but
they are useful as a backup provider. And they support SMTP AUTH.
Good night,
And Good luck!
Beartooth
>> Should it have been different?
>
>
> Not necessarily, but it *could* be. E.g., if one of the following
> is on the machine and has an smtp-server specified:
>
> pine.conf
> .pinercex
> pine.conf.fixed
[karhunhammas@titan ~]$ ls -a | grep pine
.pine.pwd
.pinerc
.pinerc-05-10-06
.pinerc_05_12_06
.pinerc-2006-04-12.Bkup
.pinerc.old
.pinesettings
[karhunhammas@titan ~]$
I have no idea whether Ddave has any sort of pine.conf anywhere, fixed or
not.
> I need to get off the Net now, but here is a job for you
> Beartooth that will help me tomorrow...
>
> * Please open each of your roles and copy & paste the
> smtp-server, if it exists, into a followup to this message. For
> example, please post something like the following:
>
> role1
> smtp1.example.com
The only one I've been using :
Set Template = <No Value Set>
Set Other Hdrs = Subject: [babblexia] (fwd)
Use SMTP Server = <No Value Set>
Use NNTP Server = <No Value Set>
Incidentally, that was working fine this morning. When I used it twice
this afternoon, I got bounces, some claiming "refused by user" --
even though the users named are some of my most valued regulars, who would
never start refusing, because they comment on lots.
> role2
> smtp2.example.net
The only other I have, and should probably delete, since it gets taken as
relaying :
Initialize settings using role : <No Value Set>
Set From = Beartooth <Bear...@adelphia.net>
Set Reply-To = <No Value Set>
Set Fcc = <No Value Set: using "value from fcc-name-rule">
Set LiteralSig = <No Value Set>
Set Signature = <No Value Set: using "default (sig/venato)">
Set Template = <No Value Set>
Set Other Hdrs = <No Value Set>
Use SMTP Server = mail.adelphia.net
Use NNTP Server = <No Value Set>
> My guess is that none of these have an smpt-server setting, but I need
> to be sure.
>
> * Also, please tell me how many roles you have set up.
If I delete the second one, only one.
> * Finally, please decide on a backup email service provider. There are
> many reasons why it will be useful for you to have 2 email service
> providers. Another possibility, other than the FastMail.FM account, I
> suggested in a previous message is...
>
> Gmail
I try to be paranoid and can't keep up; but I can at least keep my
distance from as much of google as possible, including deleting cookies
hand over fist ...
How much am I apt to use this backup? I've been thinking of getting a
local dialup, which is linux-friendly, for the times adelphia is so far
down that I can get to neither ssh nor web nor adelphia mail -- i.e., just
for short term emergencies. Would that do? Or is it something I may spend
whole days on?
And am I going to get to it by phone, or through adelphia, or what??
Beartooth
> * Finally, please decide on a backup email service provider.
> There are many reasons why it will be useful for you to have 2
> email service providers. Another possibility, other than the
> FastMail.FM account, ...
Done : I am now beartooth (at) mailworks dot org
NM Public
>
>> * Finally, please decide on a backup email service provider.
>> There are many reasons why it will be useful for you to have 2
>> email service providers. Another possibility, other than the
>> FastMail.FM account, ...
>
> Done : I am now beartooth (at) mailworks dot org
Excellent! Now you have 2 good IMAP accounts:
* lserv.com (aka titan)
* mailworks.org (aka fastmail.fm)
What level account did you get at FastMail Beartooth? I need to
know this because it affects the things that you can do on the
account (and how we'll set things up).
Thank you, we're making progress!
NM Public
>
> [karhunhammas@titan ~]$ ls -a | grep pine
> .pine.pwd
> .pinerc
> .pinerc-05-10-06
> .pinerc_05_12_06
> .pinerc-2006-04-12.Bkup
> .pinerc.old
> .pinesettings
> [karhunhammas@titan ~]$
>
> I have no idea whether Ddave has any sort of pine.conf
> anywhere, fixed or not.
pine.conf and pine.conf.fixed are usually located in
/usr/local/lib -- it's a good idea to see if those exist and what
they contain on all your machines.
>> I need to get off the Net now, but here is a job for you
>> Beartooth that will help me tomorrow...
>>
>> * Please open each of your roles and copy & paste the
>> smtp-server, if it exists, into a followup to this message.
>> For example, please post something like the following:
>>
>> role1
>> smtp1.example.com
>
> The only one I've been using :
>
> Set Template = <No Value Set>
> Set Other Hdrs = Subject: [babblexia] (fwd)
> Use SMTP Server = <No Value Set>
> Use NNTP Server = <No Value Set>
>
> Incidentally, that was working fine this morning. When I used
> it twice this afternoon, I got bounces, some claiming "refused
> by user" -- even though the users named are some of my most
> valued regulars, who would never start refusing, because they
> comment on lots.
It sounds like the outgoing SMTP server you used is on one (or
more) block list. This is a problem that everyone is having these
days and is one of the reasons that I recommended that you get a
backup email service provider.
>> role2
>> smtp2.example.net
>
> The only other I have, and should probably delete, since it gets taken as
> relaying :
>
> Initialize settings using role : <No Value Set>
> Set From = Beartooth <Bear...@adelphia.net>
> Set Reply-To = <No Value Set>
> Set Fcc = <No Value Set: using "value from fcc-name-rule">
> Set LiteralSig = <No Value Set>
> Set Signature = <No Value Set: using "default (sig/venato)">
> Set Template = <No Value Set>
> Set Other Hdrs = <No Value Set>
> Use SMTP Server = mail.adelphia.net
> Use NNTP Server = <No Value Set>
>
>> My guess is that none of these have an smpt-server setting, but I need
>> to be sure.
>>
>> * Also, please tell me how many roles you have set up.
>
> If I delete the second one, only one.
Thanks for the info Beartooth. I recommend that you do *not*
delete your adelphia.net role, but change its nickname to
something like this:
Nickname: Adelphia.net (use only if other roles don't work)
The plan is to transition you away from this role, but you will
need it for the following:
1] email communication with Adelphia.net
2] unsubscribing from any lists or other solicited bulk email
that you get at that address
>> Gmail
>
> I try to be paranoid and can't keep up; but I can at least keep
> my distance from as much of google as possible, including
> deleting cookies hand over fist ...
Understood (and I approve!).
> How much am I apt to use this backup? I've been thinking of
> getting a local dialup, which is linux-friendly, for the times
> adelphia is so far down that I can get to neither ssh nor web
> nor adelphia mail -- i.e., just for short term emergencies.
> Would that do? Or is it something I may spend whole days on?
No that would not do. You want to get an email service provider
that is completely independent of any of your Internet *access*
providers. If you do get this linux-friendly dialup, which sounds
like a good idea, the email account with them will be in the same
category as your Adelphia email account, i.e.:
Nickname: dialup.net (use only if other roles don't work)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> And am I going to get to it by phone, or through adelphia, or
> what??
You are going to get it *through the Internet*!
Remember the diagram I drew the other day with all the Internet
protocols and servers? The point of that diagram was this:
Your ability to access Internet services is independent
of your Internet *Access* Provider.
My guess is that the reason you are confused about this is
because some access providers, for example AOL, have tried to
lock people into using their Internet services, for example their
email services.
You want to break away from any kind of lock in. It's important
for your own personal flexibility and freedom, but it's also
important for the general health of the Net.
Be free/libre!
Beartooth
> Excellent! Now you have 2 good IMAP accounts:
>
> * lserv.com (aka titan)
> * mailworks.org (aka fastmail.fm)
>
> What level account did you get at FastMail Beartooth? I need to
> know this because it affects the things that you can do on the
> account (and how we'll set things up).
I *knew* I should've included that!
This payment was processed for:
Initial setup and registration of email account.
Account service level: Full
Payment period: 1 year
Beartooth
> Sur 2006-06-17, Beartooth skribis:
OT, but I keep meaning to ask : what language is skribis? Esperanto, maybe?
>> I have no idea whether Ddave has any sort of pine.conf
>> anywhere, fixed or not.
>
> pine.conf and pine.conf.fixed are usually located in
> /usr/local/lib -- it's a good idea to see if those exist and what
> they contain on all your machines.
I see :
[btth@localhost ~]$ ls -a /usr/local/lib
. libfly libfly.2.0.0 libfly.la libnautic.2
libnautic.a
.. libfly.2 libfly.a libnautic libnautic.2.0.0
libnautic.la
[btth@localhost ~]$
on one of my local machines. All the rest, including titan, show only .
and ..
>>> * Please open each of your roles and copy & paste the
>>> smtp-server, if it exists, into a followup to this message.
>>> For example, please post something like the following:
>>>
>>> role1
>>> smtp1.example.com
>>
>> The only one I've been using :
>>
>> Set Template = <No Value Set>
>> Set Other Hdrs = Subject: [babblexia] (fwd)
>> Use SMTP Server = <No Value Set>
>> Use NNTP Server = <No Value Set>
>>
>> Incidentally, that was working fine this morning. When I used
>> it twice this afternoon, I got bounces, some claiming "refused
>> by user" -- even though the users named are some of my most
>> valued regulars, who would never start refusing, because they
>> comment on lots.
>
> It sounds like the outgoing SMTP server you used is on one (or
> more) block list. This is a problem that everyone is having these
> days and is one of the reasons that I recommended that you get a
> backup email service provider.
One more thing I gotta get back to: one bounce showed a lot of URLS; I
tried one, got through to one of my subscribers, and discovered the U of
MN has been bedevilling its staff with some such. <sigh>
>>> role2
>>> smtp2.example.net
>>
>> The only other I have, and should probably delete, since it gets taken
>> as relaying :
[and therefore blocked by many if not most ISPs]
>> Initialize settings using role : <No Value Set>
>> Set From = Beartooth <Bear...@adelphia.net>
>> Set Reply-To = <No Value Set>
>> Set Fcc = <No Value Set: using "value from fcc-name-rule">
>> Set LiteralSig = <No Value Set>
>> Set Signature = <No Value Set: using "default (sig/venato)">
>> Set Template = <No Value Set>
>> Set Other Hdrs = <No Value Set>
>> Use SMTP Server = mail.adelphia.net
>> Use NNTP Server = <No Value Set>
>>
>>> My guess is that none of these have an smpt-server setting, but I need
>>> to be sure.
>>>
>>> * Also, please tell me how many roles you have set up.
>>
>> If I delete the second one, only one.
>
>
> Thanks for the info Beartooth. I recommend that you do *not* delete your
> adelphia.net role, but change its nickname to something like this:
>
> Nickname: Adelphia.net (use only if other roles don't work)
You mean that literally? A role with a dot, a parenthesis, and a bunch of
spaces in its name?? On linux???
Incidentally, I just remembered that, on the rare occasions when I boot
the one machine to XPPro/SP2, I do have PC-Pine on it. I use it *very*
rarely, and only for two purposes: to pass very long URLs to it from the
real (i.e., linux) OSs; and to email screenshots of maps made with
proprietary software from it to the real OSs, to be made into desktop
backgrounds a/o to be emailed in public formats to potential visitors.
So I see no point in including it in all this unless absolutely necessary
-- i.e., it would break things. But I suppose I ought to change its
incoming and outgoing addresses to mailworks.org, right?
> The plan is to transition you away from this role, but you will need it
> for the following:
>
> 1] email communication with Adelphia.net
That's IF even adelphia will accept relayed messages, isn't it? Why not
just email adelphia from titan or mailworks? Or use Adelphia's webmail
site? I have a login there, though I've used it only once in the last
couple years -- to set up the autoforward to titan.
> 2] unsubscribing from any lists or other solicited bulk email
> that you get at that address
That's something I was going to ask about. The only list I get there, the
AbiWord one, comes only because the AbiWord developers are too busy or too
uninterested to make their software (majordomo) accept a nomail setting;
I actually prefer to follow the list, like every other I can, on Gmane.
And pine against adelphia keeps its filters in cold molasses -- it's far
quicker and easier to delete all mail from that list manually than to wait
for a filter to deep six it. So is fastmail's filtering going to be fast?
(I did ask once on c.m.p whether filtering speed reflected IMAP vs. POP3
-- but never got any answer.)
>>> Gmail
>>
>> I try to be paranoid and can't keep up; but I can at least keep my
>> distance from as much of google as possible, including deleting cookies
>> hand over fist ...
>
> Understood (and I approve!).
>
>
>> How much am I apt to use this backup? I've been thinking of getting a
>> local dialup, which is linux-friendly, for the times adelphia is so far
>> down that I can get to neither ssh nor web nor adelphia mail -- i.e.,
>> just for short term emergencies. Would that do? Or is it something I
>> may spend whole days on?
>
> No that would not do. You want to get an email service provider that is
> completely independent of any of your Internet *access* providers. If
> you do get this linux-friendly dialup, which sounds like a good idea,
> the email account with them will be in the same category as your
> Adelphia email account, i.e.:
>
> Nickname: dialup.net (use only if other roles don't work)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Apart from the question of role names, which I asked above, are you saying
I would then include the dialup in the titan settings -- on the grounds
that it would have some use other than when either titan or my adelphia
connection to it is down?
>> And am I going to get to it by phone, or through adelphia, or what??
>
> You are going to get it *through the Internet*!
>
> Remember the diagram I drew the other day with all the Internet
> protocols and servers? The point of that diagram was this:
>
> Your ability to access Internet services is independent of your
> Internet *Access* Provider.
>
> My guess is that the reason you are confused about this is because some
> access providers, for example AOL, have tried to lock people into using
> their Internet services, for example their email services.
Well, by the time I retired and needed private access, I'd been on the Net
long enough to know better than try AOL -- I barely managed to tolerate
earthlink till I could get something else. But of course I'd been working
in a place where we had layer behind layer behind layer of backup -- there
were at least four layers inside the cataloging directorate, between us
and the ITS directorate. So access was something I had always taken for
granted.
> You want to break away from any kind of lock in. It's important for your
> own personal flexibility and freedom, but it's also important for the
> general health of the Net.
>
> Be free/libre!
Well, I think at least I understand a little better now. Thanks!
NM Public
>
>> Excellent! Now you have 2 good IMAP accounts:
>>
>> * lserv.com (aka titan)
>> * mailworks.org (aka fastmail.fm)
>>
>> What level account did you get at FastMail Beartooth? I need to
>> know this because it affects the things that you can do on the
>> account (and how we'll set things up).
>
> I *knew* I should've included that!
>
> This payment was processed for:
> Initial setup and registration of email account.
> Account service level: Full
> Payment period: 1 year
That's great Beartooth. Here are some more questions that will
help me to help you set up Pine to access this account.
1] With your FM account, you can use addresses like this:
anything <at> beartooth.mailworks.org
i.e., beartooth.mailworks.org is basically your own subdomain.
For example, you could use:
usenet <at> beartooth.mailworks.org
lists <at> beartooth.mailworks.org
secret <at> beartooth.mailworks.org
which you would use for Usenet, Mailing Lists, and your personal
correspondents, respectively. (And where 'secret' is something
secret that you don't post here.)
Question: What, if any, addresses do you want to use in the
beartooth.mailworks.org domain? (My recommendation: Use the 3
addresses I suggest above.)
2] Since this account comes with 600 MB of space, you might want
to use this as your primary IMAP account and use Lserv as your
secondary IMAP account. The advantages of FastMail.FM are they
have excellent built-in spam filters, you can use Sieve to
manually filter your incoming email (e.g., your mailing-list
email) they do backups & restores (restores are for a fee, but
it's worth it when/if you need it). Another advantage is that I
know the FM system so I can help you with it. Also, there is a
very supportive web-based Forum.
Question: Do you want to use FM or Lserv as your primary IMAP
account? (My recommendation: FM)
Final Question: Did you pay $19.95 or $14.95 for this? Their sale
supposedly ended on Friday, but maybe it didn't?!
BTW, If anyone wants to sign up for an FM account because of my
recommendation and wants to help support Infinite Ink (my
business), you could use one of the FM referral links on one of
my pages, e.g., in the upper right corner of my All About Pine
page, which is here:
<http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/>
BTW2, I use and recommend FM because they have a nice IMAP system
and support Sieve, not because of the referral fees, so please
don't think that *this* message is spam.
Thanks,
Beartooth
>>> What level account did you get at FastMail Beartooth? I need to
>>> know this because it affects the things that you can do on the
>>> account (and how we'll set things up).
>>
>> I *knew* I should've included that!
>>
>> This payment was processed for:
>> Initial setup and registration of email account.
>> Account service level: Full
>> Payment period: 1 year
>
> That's great Beartooth. Here are some more questions that will
> help me to help you set up Pine to access this account.
>
> 1] With your FM account, you can use addresses like this:
>
> anything <at> beartooth.mailworks.org
>
> i.e., beartooth.mailworks.org is basically your own subdomain.
> For example, you could use:
>
> usenet <at> beartooth.mailworks.org
> lists <at> beartooth.mailworks.org
> secret <at> beartooth.mailworks.org
>
> which you would use for Usenet, Mailing Lists, and your personal
> correspondents, respectively. (And where 'secret' is something
> secret that you don't post here.)
>
> Question: What, if any, addresses do you want to use in the
> beartooth.mailworks.org domain? (My recommendation: Use the 3
> addresses I suggest above.)
Hmmm .... I'll have to think on a "secret" -- does it want to be
encrypted, or dictionary-proof, or anything like that? Or can I just call
it something like 'personal' or 'private'?
Also, what about a fourth? I've been using the adelphia address (as I had
forgotten to mention) also for any business I do -- giving an address when
I buy something online, or dealing with the local contractor, etc. --
because I find some business seem to think any dealing gives them license
to spam, and the adelphia address was meant to be ephemeral from the
outset. Could I have one called business <at> beartooth.mailworks.org?
> 2] Since this account comes with 600 MB of space, you might want to use
> this as your primary IMAP account and use Lserv as your secondary IMAP
> account. The advantages of FastMail.FM are they have excellent built-in
> spam filters, you can use Sieve to manually filter your incoming email
> (e.g., your mailing-list email) they do backups & restores (restores are
> for a fee, but it's worth it when/if you need it). Another advantage is
> that I know the FM system so I can help you with it. Also, there is a
> very supportive web-based Forum.
Those are certainly weighty reasons. Still, I have a couple of no doubt
Very Dumb Questions.
First, I have my doubts that even 600 MB is any bigger than what I have
already on my unlimited Lserv account; how do I check it?
Second, I notice that FM puts limits on the entries in your addressbook;
I'm sure mine is way over their limits -- even without counting
distribution lists, some of which are pretty long. Is there a way to get a
count of the entries in a pine addressbook? It runs to about
120 screens full on a 19" monitor, of which about forty are single
entries, with a gnome-terminal font set to monospace 20. (I do try to
eliminate any that bounce, as that happens -- or update them if I can.)
At something over twenty lines per screen, that's on the order of 500
individual addresses, plus distribution lists containing a thousand-odd.
> Question: Do you want to use FM or Lserv as your primary IMAP account?
> (My recommendation: FM)
Lemme keep thinking a little longer -- if I'm not already way over their
limits.
> Final Question: Did you pay $19.95 or $14.95 for this? Their sale
> supposedly ended on Friday, but maybe it didn't?!
The pages I saw said that $14.95 was only till the 16th, and it was
already the 17th, yes; but I didn't assume it would revert to the $19.95,
and therefore didn't know. So I just went ahead with my choice of the
Full; and it put $14.95 on my credit card. I suppose the machine had just
missed getting updated on Friday; if they don't honor it, I'll worry
tomorrow -- or whenever.
> BTW, If anyone wants to sign up for an FM account because of my
> recommendation and wants to help support Infinite Ink (my business), you
> could use one of the FM referral links on one of my pages, e.g., in the
> upper right corner of my All About Pine page, which is here:
>
> <http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/>
Fwiw, I tried both your name and the address you post from, and neither
would take. But now that I look at that site, I see only
Deflexion.com blog >>
Join the conversation >>
(apparently all one link) -- but not what to put in the referral
line. I'll gladly try to do it retroactively, I suppose by emailing them.
So what should I say?
> BTW2, I use and recommend FM because they have a nice IMAP system and
> support Sieve, not because of the referral fees, so please don't think
> that *this* message is spam.
Anybody on this list who doesn't trust your opinions on such questions
might as well quit trusting Pine, too -- it would be only marginally
sillier, if at all.
Beartooth NQC
> 2] ... The advantages of FastMail.FM are they
> manually filter your incoming email (e.g., your mailing-list
> email) they do backups & restores (restores are for a fee, but
Sieve questions (probably oughtta be VDSQ) :
1) Is Sieve still being maintained? The web site I got to from FM looked
kind of on the old side ...
2) Here's part of a .sig that I just discovered on the fedora-general
gmane group :
> Please note - Due to the intense volume of spam, we have installed
> site-wide spam filters at catherders.com. If email from you bounces,
> try non-HTML, non-encoded, non-attachments
Even if it didn't say site-wide, that sounds to me like something Sieve
might be a lot better at than Pine, a/o do faster. Certainly I *like* it.
So is it a job for Sieve? And if so, how big a job?
--
Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck, Double Retiree,
Not Quite Clueless Linux Power User : FC4&5; Pine 4.64, etc.