Can Eudora Handle HTML? IE6 can.
Robin Chapple
I find it impossible to format messages with double paragraph marks.
I prepare a message with a line space between paragraphs and it
arrives with the space missing.
It is also difficult to maintain columns.
The same project succeeds with OE6.
I have put screen grabs here:
to show the message as prepared and the message as received.
The violent colours are used to show the image which was lost against
the white background.
Have I wasted my money?
Thanks
Robin Chapple
Katrina Knight
> I am using Eudora pro V6.01
> I find it impossible to format messages with double paragraph marks.
> I prepare a message with a line space between paragraphs and it
> arrives with the space missing.
Arrives where? Is the problem with sending messages to yourself or sending
them to other people? If other people, what do you see if you send the
same thing to yourself? What happens if you switch from the MS viewer
to the internal one or vice-versa? Are the messages being sent as plain
text or as styled text? Are you composing them in Eudora or copying and
pasting them from elsewhere?
> It is also difficult to maintain columns.
What method are you using to make columns? Eudora doesn't have columns as
such. If you're making columns using spaces, you need to use a fixed-width
font for both composing and viewing them or it isn't going to work. If
you're using tabs, you need to have Eudora not set to turn tabs into
spaces and the results there will depend on what the recipient's program
does with received tabs.
> The same project succeeds with OE6.
> I have put screen grabs here:
There's no address visible here for where you put them. (If you put them
in the message, that's a no-no in a text newsgroup. They get stripped by
servers that don't allow binaries in text groups.)
> Have I wasted my money?
Depends on what you expected. If you paid for a program that you can try
out for free without bothering to try it out first, that wasn't the best
idea in the world. If you expected Eudora to act like MS's programs, you
may have bought something that isn't what you wanted. Unlike MS programs,
Eudora doesn't think email messages should be web pages in disguise. If
that's what you need, Eudora is probably not the program for you.
--
Katrina
Robin Chapple
Thanks for your detailed analysis. Comments follow your questions.
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:32:55 GMT, Katrina Knight <kkn...@epix.net>
wrote:
>Robin Chapple <robinski@no_spam_melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>> I am using Eudora pro V6.01
>
>> I find it impossible to format messages with double paragraph marks.
>
>> I prepare a message with a line space between paragraphs and it
>> arrives with the space missing.
>
>Arrives where?
Both with the recipient and back at my machine. I send a copy to
myself.
>Is the problem with sending messages to yourself or sending
>them to other people?
Both
>If other people, what do you see if you send the
>same thing to yourself?
Yes
> What happens if you switch from the MS viewer
>to the internal one or vice-versa?
Now you've lost me. I will try to find the alternative because I don't
know which one I am using.
>Are the messages being sent as plain
>text or as styled text?
Sent as plain and styled
.
>Are you composing them in Eudora or copying and
>pasting them from elsewhere?
Composed in Eudora and sent.
>
>> It is also difficult to maintain columns.
>
>What method are you using to make columns?
I use tabs to make columns.
>Eudora doesn't have columns as
>such. If you're making columns using spaces, you need to use a fixed-width
>font for both composing and viewing them or it isn't going to work. If
>you're using tabs, you need to have Eudora not set to turn tabs into
>spaces and the results there will depend on what the recipient's program
>does with received tabs.
I will also try to find the option " not to turn tabs into spaces ".
My recipients are 95% IE users.
>
>> The same project succeeds with OE6.
>
>> I have put screen grabs here:
http://www.rotary9790.org/test.htm
>There's no address visible here for where you put them.
My apology. The paste did not stick.
Thanks
Robin Chapple
Katrina Knight
>> What happens if you switch from the MS viewer
>>to the internal one or vice-versa?
> Now you've lost me. I will try to find the alternative because I don't
> know which one I am using.
The setting involved is Tools | options | viewing mail | Use MS's viewer.
The MS viewer is on by default. It uses IE's rendering engine to display
messages, allowing for much more html stuff to be shown. If you don't need
it for anything, it is probably better to leave it off.
>>Are the messages being sent as plain
>>text or as styled text?
> Sent as plain and styled
Do you really want to be doing that? That sends both versions as separate
parts in a single message.
>>> It is also difficult to maintain columns.
>>
>>What method are you using to make columns?
> I use tabs to make columns.
> I will also try to find the option " not to turn tabs into spaces ".
Tools | options | composing mail | tabs in body of message. I think maybe
I was mixing up what that two settings do though. That one switches
between spaces being inserted by the tab key and tabs taking you between
the header fields and the body of the message. There's another setting
that controls how many spaces are inserted for a tab. I'm not sure if you
can actually get Eudora to send actual tabs in the message or not.
In any case, if you want to make columns that way, you and the receiver
both need to be using fixed-width fonts. You can either send the message
as plain text and tell the receipient to choose to view it with a
fixed-width font, or you can send it as styled text and use the
"fixed-width font" button in the composition window to set it to a
fixed-width font. (If you're using the old button set, that button says
"TT". I'm not sure what it is in the new 6.x button sets.)
> My recipients are 95% IE users.
IE is a web browser, not an e-mail client. Do you mean OE?
>>There's no address visible here for where you put them.
> My apology. The paste did not stick.
That happens.
I don't know what to say about your missing empty lines. There are two
things I can think of for you to try. First turn off the MS viewer and
see if they look right in the internal viewer. If they do, the problem has
something to do with how IE displays things. Second, send yourself a plain
text message and see if the empty lines work that way. If they do, use
"view source" to look at the html code for one of the styled text messages
with this problem. Are the lines in the code or not? If they're not, the
problem is happening in the composition window. If they are, the problem
is happening with how the messages are displayed.
--
Katrina
Robin Chapple
wrote:
>Robin Chapple <robinski@no_spam_melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>> What happens if you switch from the MS viewer
>>>to the internal one or vice-versa?
>
>> Now you've lost me. I will try to find the alternative because I don't
>> know which one I am using.
>
>The setting involved is Tools | options | viewing mail | Use MS's viewer.
>The MS viewer is on by default. It uses IE's rendering engine to display
>messages, allowing for much more html stuff to be shown. If you don't need
>it for anything, it is probably better to leave it off.
I have now left the option "" Off "". for all of the following trials.
>
>>>Are the messages being sent as plain
>>>text or as styled text?
>
>> Sent as plain and styled
>
>Do you really want to be doing that? That sends both versions as separate
>parts in a single message.
This started when one of my " gurus " suggested that I should do that.
I am open to your suggestions. I need to present a styled manner.
Shopuld I just use "" Styled ""?
>>>> It is also difficult to maintain columns.
>>>
>>>What method are you using to make columns?
>
>> I use tabs to make columns.
>
>> I will also try to find the option " not to turn tabs into spaces ".
>
>Tools | options | composing mail | tabs in body of message. I think maybe
>I was mixing up what that two settings do though. That one switches
>between spaces being inserted by the tab key and tabs taking you between
>the header fields and the body of the message. There's another setting
>that controls how many spaces are inserted for a tab. I'm not sure if you
>can actually get Eudora to send actual tabs in the message or not.
>
>In any case, if you want to make columns that way, you and the receiver
>both need to be using fixed-width fonts. You can either send the message
>as plain text and tell the receipient to choose to view it with a
>fixed-width font, or you can send it as styled text and use the
>"fixed-width font" button in the composition window to set it to a
>fixed-width font. (If you're using the old button set, that button says
>"TT". I'm not sure what it is in the new 6.x button sets.)
>
The "Courier" option workd well.
>> My recipients are 95% IE users.
>
>IE is a web browser, not an e-mail client. Do you mean OE?
>
A mere slip of the tounge in a very ancient head. I did mean OE.
>
>I don't know what to say about your missing empty lines. There are two
>things I can think of for you to try. First turn off the MS viewer and
>see if they look right in the internal viewer. If they do, the problem has
>something to do with how IE displays things. Second, send yourself a plain
>text message and see if the empty lines work that way. If they do, use
>"view source" to look at the html code for one of the styled text messages
>with this problem. Are the lines in the code or not? If they're not, the
>problem is happening in the composition window. If they are, the problem
>is happening with how the messages are displayed.
That is now working as planned. You are a wizard. Thanks for staying
the course.
Best wishes,
Robin Chapple
Robin Chapple
wrote:
>Robin Chapple <robinski@no_spam_melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>> What happens if you switch from the MS viewer
>>>to the internal one or vice-versa?
>
>> Now you've lost me. I will try to find the alternative because I don't
>> know which one I am using.
>
>The setting involved is Tools | options | viewing mail | Use MS's viewer.
>The MS viewer is on by default. It uses IE's rendering engine to display
>messages, allowing for much more html stuff to be shown. If you don't need
>it for anything, it is probably better to leave it off.
I have now left the option "" Off "". for all of the following trials.
>
>>>Are the messages being sent as plain
>>>text or as styled text?
>
>> Sent as plain and styled
>
>Do you really want to be doing that? That sends both versions as separate
>parts in a single message.
This started when one of my " gurus " suggested that I should do that.
I am open to your suggestions. I need to present a styled manner.
Shopuld I just use "" Styled ""?
>>>> It is also difficult to maintain columns.
>>>
>>>What method are you using to make columns?
>
>> I use tabs to make columns.
>
>> I will also try to find the option " not to turn tabs into spaces ".
>
>Tools | options | composing mail | tabs in body of message. I think maybe
>I was mixing up what that two settings do though. That one switches
>between spaces being inserted by the tab key and tabs taking you between
>the header fields and the body of the message. There's another setting
>that controls how many spaces are inserted for a tab. I'm not sure if you
>can actually get Eudora to send actual tabs in the message or not.
>
>In any case, if you want to make columns that way, you and the receiver
>both need to be using fixed-width fonts. You can either send the message
>as plain text and tell the receipient to choose to view it with a
>fixed-width font, or you can send it as styled text and use the
>"fixed-width font" button in the composition window to set it to a
>fixed-width font. (If you're using the old button set, that button says
>"TT". I'm not sure what it is in the new 6.x button sets.)
>
The "Courier" option workd well.
>> My recipients are 95% IE users.
>
>IE is a web browser, not an e-mail client. Do you mean OE?
>
A mere slip of the tounge in a very ancient head. I did mean OE.
>
>I don't know what to say about your missing empty lines. There are two
>things I can think of for you to try. First turn off the MS viewer and
>see if they look right in the internal viewer. If they do, the problem has
>something to do with how IE displays things. Second, send yourself a plain
>text message and see if the empty lines work that way. If they do, use
>"view source" to look at the html code for one of the styled text messages
>with this problem. Are the lines in the code or not? If they're not, the
>problem is happening in the composition window. If they are, the problem
>is happening with how the messages are displayed.
That is now working as planned. You are a wizard. Thanks for staying
Katrina Knight
>>Do you really want to be doing that? That sends both versions as separate
>>parts in a single message.
> This started when one of my " gurus " suggested that I should do that.
> I am open to your suggestions. I need to present a styled manner.
> Shopuld I just use "" Styled ""?
Probably. The reason for sending both plain and styled is that you want
people whose e-mail clients support html to be able to see the html while
allowing people whose clients don't support it to see the plain text
version. In general, you shouldn't be sending html unless the recipients
have agreed that they want to receive it. If you know they want to receive
it, then you don't need to send the plain text part. If you don't know if
they want the html, you shold stick to using plain text. If you are
sending a message to a group of people where you know there are some who
want html and some who can't read it, that's the time to use both. That's
a fairly rare occurance. (Note that sending both generally doesn't give
the recipient a choice. For the most part, they're going to be stuck with
the html if their client supports it. There are programs that let you
choose, but Eudora is not one of them.) Choosing to send "styled text"
only sends html if you actually put html into the message. If you compose
it using plain text, plain text is what will be sent.
All that being said, whether you send both or not should not matter where
your problems are concerned.
>>In any case, if you want to make columns that way, you and the receiver
>>both need to be using fixed-width fonts. You can either send the message
>>as plain text and tell the receipient to choose to view it with a
>>fixed-width font, or you can send it as styled text and use the
>>"fixed-width font" button in the composition window to set it to a
>>fixed-width font. (If you're using the old button set, that button says
>>"TT". I'm not sure what it is in the new 6.x button sets.)
>>
> The "Courier" option workd well.
Good. The problem with proportional fonts is that each character is a
different width and tht width varies from font to font, and sometimes
between different versions of fonts with the same name. Fixed-width fonts
on the other hand have characters that are all the same width. The actual
width will vary from font to font, but that doesn't matter for the purpose
of making columns.
>>I don't know what to say about your missing empty lines. There are two
>>things I can think of for you to try. First turn off the MS viewer and
>>see if they look right in the internal viewer. If they do, the problem has
>>something to do with how IE displays things.
> That is now working as planned. You are a wizard. Thanks for staying
> the course.
Turning off the MS viewer fixed it? If so, and you end up wanting to use
the MS viewer again later, you may be able to solve the problem by fooling
with your settings for MS IE.
--
Katrina
Rick
>Thanks very much. It's curious that Qualcom didn't see fit to
>provide that information. Well, perhaps not.
>
>Do you have a collection of more of this kind of tweak, not
>otherwise documented?
>
>
>Erik says...
>
>
>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:34:59 -0600, Peabody wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I would also like to use ">" as the
>>>quote mark, not the excerpt bars.
>>>
>>>
>>Add these lines to eudora.ini under [Settings]:
>>
>>AlwaysExcerptResponse=0
>>ConvertFormatFlowedtoExcerpt=0
>>InterpretFormatFlowed=0
>>
>>Erik
>>
>>
>
>
>
Be aware that removing the F=F capabilty also removes the ability to
selectively quote. (Select text, hit reply, and the only quoted text is
what you selected.)
Rick
--
Why are there 5 syllables
in the word "monosyllabic"?
Katrina Knight
> Katrina Knight says...
> > Choosing to send "styled text" only sends html if you
> > actually put html into the message. If you compose it
> > using plain text, plain text is what will be sent.
> In version 6, that doesn't appear to be the case for
> replies. It looks like Eudora insists on using the vertical
> excerpt bars for the quoted text, even if the original
> quoted message was plaintext, and that apparently requires
> that the whole reply be formatted in HTML.
No. It doesn't.
Excerpt bars do not cause the message to contain any html. They cause the
message to specify in the content type: header that format=flowed was
used. That's all. The excerpt bars are created by the email client that is
being used to display them.
If you look at the source code of sent messages, that will contain html,
but that is not what is actually sent. Eudora, for reasons beyond my
understanding, saves sent messages with the code for displaying them on
the screen in the message source if you're using format=flowed.
> Do you know a way around this? I would like to send ONLY
> plain text, with no html at all, whether in original
> messages or in replies.
The way to do that is to check the option to only send plain text and/or
never put any formatting into messages and take out any that is in the
messages you're replying to. (The former is easier.)
--
Katrina
Katrina Knight
> Thanks very much. It's curious that Qualcom didn't see fit to
> provide that information. Well, perhaps not.
Qualcomm's documentation about excerpt bars and turning them off is found
here: <http://www.eudora.com/techsupport/kb/1626hq.html>. They only
mention 2 of the 3 settings having to do with the excerpt bars, but those
two are probably enough to turn them off when sending messages anway. I
think the one they don't mention there is the one that deals with received
messages.
> Do you have a collection of more of this kind of tweak, not
> otherwise documented?
There are loads of settings that are documented in various places - the
release notes files for various versions, the Help file, and the Eudora
website. Most settings are mentioned in one or more of those places. I can
think of two that aren't mentioned anywhere that I know of -
Commercial32Version, which can be used to reset the windows and toolbars
and InOutbackups which sets the number of backup copies of In and Out to
make in 6.x.
--
Katrina
Katrina Knight
> Ok, I'm beginning to understand how it works. It's just
> very puzzling to see the queued message in the out.mbx file
> with all that html stuff, and then find at the other end
> that it's not there anymore.
You're talking about composing messages with html in them and then sending
them as plain text? If so, then all you need to do is clear the formatting
when you start a reply or forward, or not put in any formatting if you're
starting a new message.
> But I'm still confused about the three ini entries:
> AlwaysExcerptResponse=0
> ConvertFormatFlowedtoExcerpt=0
> InterpretFormatFlowed=0
> In the Eudora KB article, it only gives the first two, and
> in fact the second one show it set to 1.
Ignore that. It is wrong.
> Can you explain
> exactly what each of these does, including whether it
> applies to inbound or outbound? What exactly does "Excerpt"
> mean here - does it refer to the use of the excerpt bars?
Yes, that's what it refers to. In all honesty, I have trouble remembering
the details of exactly which of those settings does which thing, so I just
checked again. The Help file says that the last two both "turn
format=flowed on and off". That's not very accurate. The following is my
attempt to figure out the way this works. It may be less then perfect.
ConvertFormatFlowedtoExceprt contols whether or not received messages that
were sent using format=flowed show excerpt bars where appropriate. I don't
think it applies to outgoing messages at all. AlwaysExcerptResponse
controls whether or not you get excerpt bars when you reply to messages.
If ConvertFormatFlowedtoExcerpt is off, turning off AlwaysExcerptResponse
turns off excerpt bars in replies. If ConvertFormatFlowedtoExcerpt is on,
the turning off AlwaysExcerptResponse turns off excerpt bars when replying
to messages that did not use format=flowed, but leaves them on for replies
to messages that did use format=flowed. InterpretFormatFlowed may not do
anything if the other two settings are both on. If AlwaysExcerptResponse
is turned off, having InterpretFormatFlowed turned off prevents excerpt
bars from being used in all replies.
You may want to experiment with various combinations yourself to see what
they do, if you're really interested.
> The problem is that for replies (including this one) I use
> an old DOS editor that I wrote that lets me select which
> part(s) of the original quoted message I want to include in
> my reply, and intelligently reformat the quoted part so it
> looks good. And while the format=flowed thing will in
> effect do the same thing for some original messages (those
> with CRs only at the end of paragraphs), it doesn't work on
> other original formats, and it screws up the interface
> between Eudora and my editor. So I think I need to take it
> back to the old ">" style. But I'm not sure.
The obvious answer here would be to stop using an old DOS editor to write
messages, but presumably you've got a good reason for wanting to do that.
If using format=flowed messages it up, turning it off would seem like a
good solution.
--
Katrina