Flaky attachment handling

[David Morrison]

It's good to see that people are still using this group - it has been
quiet for some time....

I'm running Eudora 6.2.4 on Leopard. It has been mostly reliable,
although occasionally has quit unexpectedly. It also seemed to corrupt
the settings if I shut down the machine while Eudora was running.
Quitting Eudora first had no problems.

One of the things that has been irritating me has been the handling of
attachments on outgoing messages, and I wondered if anyone else had
these problems.

Firstly, I send a message with an attachment. If I leave that message in
the Out mailbox, and open the message, the attachments are still visible
in the message. If I move the message to another folder, the attachments
are not visible in the message. They are however visible in the mailbox
view and can be opened from there (but not dragged to another message).

Secondly, when I Send Again a message with attachments, if the message
is in the Out mailbox, the attachments are included. If the message is
in another folder, the attachments are not there.

Both of these have been happening for a couple of years.

Thirdly, when I go to drag an attachment out of a received message, I
get the spinning beachball for up to 10 seconds before anything happens.
I think this only happens the first time I try to drag an attachment
after Eudora starts. The second time, it works fine, as if it has to
somehow find the actual file.

I have only been noticing this for a couple of months.

Any ideas?

Cheers

David

[David Morrison]

In article <davidmor-A101D4...@news.internode.on.net>,

Well, no answers on the first tow questions, but the answer to the third
one is that the disk was failing. Replacing the disk fixed that problem.

[John H Meyers]

On 2/4/2012 4:07 AM, David Morrison wrote:

> One of the things that has been irritating me has been
> the handling of attachments on outgoing messages

Virtually all other email programs store attachments within all messages,
but Eudora does not. For outgoing messages in particular,
in my version (Windows :) no copy of sent attachments is kept,
so that if, for example, I attach a temporary file which later
ceases to exist on my own computer, I am left with no copy
of what I sent. That's Eudora's architecture.

> Firstly, I send a message with an attachment. If I leave that message in
> the Out mailbox, and open the message, the attachments are still visible
> in the message.

Exactly where in the message?

> If I move the message to another folder, the attachments
> are not visible in the message. They are however visible in the mailbox
> view and can be opened from there (but not dragged to another message).

I wonder whether uploaded screen shots could make this clearer?

> Secondly, when I Send Again a message with attachments, if the message
> is in the Out mailbox, the attachments are included. If the message is
> in another folder, the attachments are not there.

Do you mean to say that moving a message from "Out" to another mailbox
is what changes the behavior of "Send Again"?

> Both of these have been happening for a couple of years.

Was there ever a time when it was not?
What version of Eudora were you then using?
(Version 6.2.4 has remained unchanged for more than five years,
and of course no other version will ever exist).

> Thirdly, when I go to drag an attachment out of a received message, I
> get the spinning beachball for up to 10 seconds before anything happens.
> I think this only happens the first time I try to drag an attachment
> after Eudora starts. The second time, it works fine, as if it has to
> somehow find the actual file.
>
> I have only been noticing this for a couple of months.

On March 7, you have added:

> The answer to the third is that the disk was failing.

> Replacing the disk fixed that problem.

You've since experimented with brand new messages on your new disk,
perhaps in all brand new mailboxes or a brand new Eudora Folder?

Lion permanently settles all Eudora issues, unfortunately, so pretty soon
the issue of migrating will be the only question raised.

--

[David Morrison]

In article <4F589AB...@nomail.invalid>,

John H Meyers <jhme...@nomail.invalid> wrote:

> On 2/4/2012 4:07 AM, David Morrison wrote:
>
> > One of the things that has been irritating me has been
> > the handling of attachments on outgoing messages
>
> Virtually all other email programs store attachments within all messages,
> but Eudora does not. For outgoing messages in particular,
> in my version (Windows :) no copy of sent attachments is kept,
> so that if, for example, I attach a temporary file which later
> ceases to exist on my own computer, I am left with no copy
> of what I sent. That's Eudora's architecture.

Probably quite practical in the 1980s when it was first written and
people did not get hundreds of messages a day. As was the decision to
use File IDs to locate the attachments rather than file names. As soon
as you moved it to another disk, those no longer worked, and Eudora had
to rely on file names which were guaranteed to be wrong for the second
and subsequent files with the same name. But it did deal with the
problem of uniquely identifying the particular file attached to a given
message.

> > Firstly, I send a message with an attachment. If I leave that message in
> > the Out mailbox, and open the message, the attachments are still visible
> > in the message.
>
> Exactly where in the message?

Same place as when I sent the message, in the header section.

> > If I move the message to another folder, the attachments
> > are not visible in the message. They are however visible in the mailbox
> > view and can be opened from there (but not dragged to another message).
>
> I wonder whether uploaded screen shots could make this clearer?

In a message you are sending, there is a line in the header section
called Attachments:. The attachments appear on that line as an icon and
the name of the file.

Once sent, that message in the Out box looks exactly the same. There is
a document icon in the mailbox view to indicate there are attachments.
The attachment icons can be dragged to the Finder or to another message
as an attachment. Send Again sends the message with attachments included.

If I move it to another folder, the Attachments: line is no longer
present, and there is no indication there ever were attachments.
However, the mailbox view still shows the message as having attachments.
If I select the message in the mailbox view, then click on the document
icon, I get a popup menu containing all of the files attached to the
message. Send Again sends the message without any attachments.

> > Secondly, when I Send Again a message with attachments, if the message
> > is in the Out mailbox, the attachments are included. If the message is
> > in another folder, the attachments are not there.
>
> Do you mean to say that moving a message from "Out" to another mailbox
> is what changes the behavior of "Send Again"?

Yes

> > Both of these have been happening for a couple of years.
>
> Was there ever a time when it was not?

Yes. I think it may have started with Leopard.

> What version of Eudora were you then using?
> (Version 6.2.4 has remained unchanged for more than five years,
> and of course no other version will ever exist).

Been using 6.2.4 since it came out.

> > Thirdly, when I go to drag an attachment out of a received message, I
> > get the spinning beachball for up to 10 seconds before anything happens.
> > I think this only happens the first time I try to drag an attachment
> > after Eudora starts. The second time, it works fine, as if it has to
> > somehow find the actual file.
> >
> > I have only been noticing this for a couple of months.
>
> On March 7, you have added:
>
> > The answer to the third is that the disk was failing.
> > Replacing the disk fixed that problem.
>
> You've since experimented with brand new messages on your new disk,
> perhaps in all brand new mailboxes or a brand new Eudora Folder?

Don't need to. Eudora has migrated to several Macs while this was
happening.

Cheers

David

[R. Millstein]

In article <davidmor-CDE9A9...@news.internode.on.net>,

David Morrison <davi...@excite.com> wrote:

> In article <davidmor-A101D4...@news.internode.on.net>,
> David Morrison <davi...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > Firstly, I send a message with an attachment. If I leave that message in
> > the Out mailbox, and open the message, the attachments are still visible
> > in the message. If I move the message to another folder, the attachments
> > are not visible in the message. They are however visible in the mailbox
> > view and can be opened from there (but not dragged to another message).
> >
> > Secondly, when I Send Again a message with attachments, if the message
> > is in the Out mailbox, the attachments are included. If the message is
> > in another folder, the attachments are not there.

> Well, no answers on the first tow questions, but the answer to the third
> one is that the disk was failing. Replacing the disk fixed that problem.

When you first posted this, I had not noticed the problem, but seeing
your repost, it occurred to me that I had seen a "sent" message recently
where I was pretty sure I'd included an attachment but no attachment
could be found. So, I tested your situation:

1. Found a message in my Out folder where I had included an attachment
and the attachment was visible in the header of the message

2. Moved the message to another folder -- and voila! The attachment was
no longer visible in the header.

3. Tried to hit "send again" -- still no attachment.

4. Out of curiosity, transferred the message back to the outbox. The
attachment re-appeared, and was attached when I hit "send again."

Unfortunately, I have no explanation or solution, only confirmation of
the problem.

Roberta
--
Roberta Millstein
use...@spamaway.rlm.net
Remove "spamaway" to reply

[Peter Ceresole]

R. Millstein <use...@spamaway.rlm.net> wrote:

> Unfortunately, I have no explanation or solution, only confirmation of
> the problem.

Isn't it that the attachments are linked to the message, and if you move
either the link fails. Move them back to their original folders, and the
link works again. That's certainly what I thought when I came across
this behaviour.
--
Peter

[Patty Winter]

It's funny that we're all just noticing this behavior after
using Eudora for 15-20 years. :-)

I actually just ran across it myself a few weeks ago. I was
trying to verify whether I had sent a specific document to
someone. I had moved my outgoing messages for that project
from the Out box into a folder for that client's mail. I
think there was a little document icon next to the message
name in the mailbox, but when I opened it, nothing on the
Attachments line. On a hunch, I moved it back to the Out
box, and the attachment name reappeared.

So yeah, it's a bit frustrating if you're trying to find
out whether you sent a specific attachment. But as long
as the attachment reappears when you move the message back
to the Out box, you can do that, verify the attachment, and
then move the message right back where you want to store it
permanently.


Patty

[John H Meyers]

On 3/9/2012 4:59 AM, David Morrison wrote:

> File IDs to locate the attachments rather than file names. As soon
> as you moved it to another disk, those no longer worked, and Eudora had
> to rely on file names which were guaranteed to be wrong for the second
> and subsequent files with the same name.

Isn't this only for incoming messages,
since you can send one outgoing file, at one specific local path,
any number of times, using the same name?

For incoming messages, in versions for Windows.
name collisions within the same single attachments folder
are avoided by generating different unique names (appending 1, 2, etc.),
and by saving only the adjusted, now unique names in the message body,
where incoming attachments are noted. This preserves correct
"reference by name alone," but is not free of its own problems,
such as an impossibility to merge incoming messages from two or more
separate Eudora Folders which each contain similar attachment names.

>>> Firstly, I send a message with an attachment. If I leave that message in
>>> the Out mailbox, and open the message, the attachments are still visible
>>> in the message.

> [in the] Same place as when I sent the message, in the header section.

>>> If I move the message to another folder, the attachments
>>> are not visible in the message. They are however visible in the mailbox
>>> view and can be opened from there (but not dragged to another message).
>>
>> I wonder whether uploaded screen shots could make this clearer?
>
> In a message you are sending, there is a line in the header section
> called Attachments:. The attachments appear on that line as an icon and
> the name of the file.

> Once sent, that message in the Out box looks exactly the same. There is
> a document icon in the mailbox view to indicate there are attachments.
> The attachment icons can be dragged to the Finder or to another message
> as an attachment. Send Again sends the message with attachments included.

I seem to be unable to picture this, as I thought that there is but a single
icon in a column of a "mailbox view" indicating that a message has one or more
attachments, but not one icon per attachment.

> If I move it to another folder, the Attachments: line is no longer
> present, and there is no indication there ever were attachments.

This sounds like where the problem lies -- when messages are moved
(or copied) from "Out" to any other mailbox in Windows, their TOC entry
continues to remember that they are outgoing messages, created within Eudora,
causing every aspect of their appearance to remain the same, including the fact
that when re-opened, the separate headers of the original message composition window
appear again at the top in their own split part of the window,
exactly like just before "Send/Queue" was originally pressed,
rather than all headers appearing in the same section that the message body appears,
as occurs for all incoming messages.

>>> When I Send Again a message with attachments, if the message

>>> is in the Out mailbox, the attachments are included. If the message is
>>> in another folder, the attachments are not there.

Have these reports been distinguishing the appearance in a "preview pane"
(where the list of attachments does disappear even in Windows' Eudora)
from the appearance when a message is fully opened
in its own separate message window?

Is it being said that even when opened in a separate message window,
where presumably the section at the top looks just as it does
while you are composing the message, it's identical,
except for the "Attachments:" line being empty,
if the current location of the message is in any other mailbox but "Out"?
[that would be a bug, all right]

Is it by any chance the case that the list of attachments
disappears only in a "preview," but remains exactly the same
when the message is opened by itself, in its own "message window"?

What happens if one opens in a separate message window first,
then tries "Send Again"?

Roberta Millstein wrote:

> Out of curiosity, transferred the message back to the outbox.
> The attachment re-appeared, and was attached when I hit "send again."

In that case, the X-Attachments header must never have been lost,
but perhaps is being ignored when displaying an individual message
that is currently stored in any other mailbox?

Finally, doesn't "Send Again" just copy (append) a message to "Out"
and then open the copy from the "Out" mailbox?

Does everyone have the same experience, or does it depend upon
whether a TOC is in a resource fork vs. as a separate file?

--

[R. Millstein]

In article <1kgqbo2.1rizgo01608939N%pe...@cara.demon.co.uk>,

Well, one of the things that you can do with filters is transfer
messages to different mailboxes, and the attachments always go along
(and when you transfer by hand as well). This doesn't seem to be a
problem with *received* messages, only a problem with *sent* messages.
Perhaps they were implemented differently, although I am not sure why
that would be.

[R. Millstein]

In article <4f5b8ed5$0$11977$742e...@news.sonic.net>,

Patty Winter <pat...@wintertime.com> wrote:

> It's funny that we're all just noticing this behavior after
> using Eudora for 15-20 years. :-)

Yeah, I'm really very surprised not to have noticed it before!

[David Morrison]

In article <4f5b8ed5$0$11977$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
Patty Winter <pat...@wintertime.com> wrote:

> It's funny that we're all just noticing this behavior after
> using Eudora for 15-20 years. :-)

It hasn't always been like this. I think these sorts of problems started
in Leopard. I have been filtering all messages to and from individuals
into the same folder since shortly after I started using Eudora, that
many years ago. I think I would have noticed it before this because
sending again is something I do often.

David

[Patty Winter]

In article <davidmor-12BDF4...@news.internode.on.net>,

David Morrison <davi...@excite.com> wrote:
>In article <4f5b8ed5$0$11977$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
> Patty Winter <pat...@wintertime.com> wrote:
>
>> It's funny that we're all just noticing this behavior after
>> using Eudora for 15-20 years. :-)
>
>It hasn't always been like this. I think these sorts of problems started
>in Leopard.

I just fired up Eudora on my MacBook (v10.4 Tiger) and the same thing
happened when I moved a message from Out to another mailbox. The
attachment icon remained, but there was no sign of the attachment when
I opened the message to take a closer look.

>I have been filtering all messages to and from individuals
>into the same folder since shortly after I started using Eudora, that
>many years ago. I think I would have noticed it before this because
>sending again is something I do often.

Interesting. Could there be something about the filtering process
that retains attachments on outgoing mail??


Patty

[Patty Winter]

In article <usenet-A0B6AC....@free.teranews.com>,

R. Millstein <use...@spamaway.rlm.net> wrote:
>
> This doesn't seem to be a
>problem with *received* messages, only a problem with *sent* messages.

I just verified that with Eudora 6.2.4 on both Tiger (10.4) and Snow
Leopard (10.6).

Attachments are retained just fine on incoming messages; it's only
outbound messages that lose track of them when you move the message
to another mailbox.

And I was careful to test this with actual attachments, not embedded
graphics. The latter stay in both incoming and outgoing messages no
matter where they're moved.


Patty

[David Morrison]

In article <4f5cdace$0$12027$742e...@news.sonic.net>,

Patty Winter <pat...@wintertime.com> wrote:

> I just fired up Eudora on my MacBook (v10.4 Tiger) and the same thing
> happened when I moved a message from Out to another mailbox. The
> attachment icon remained, but there was no sign of the attachment when
> I opened the message to take a closer look.

Thanks for doing this. I tried my blue & white G3 but it had OS X server
on it and I had forgotten the password :-( Worse was that it would not
boot from a Tiger DVD to reinstall. I also tried an iMac G5 but for some
reason it couldn't boot from the Tiger DVD. Also :-(

[Just looked it up - the iMac needs 10.4.2. Now that's going to be a
challenge as I'm not sure I have a machine that will run 10.4.0 other
than the B&W G3.]

[John H Meyers]

On 3/11/2012 12:43 PM, Patty Winter wrote:

> R. Millstein wrote:
>> This doesn't seem to be a problem with *received* messages,
>> only a problem with *sent* messages.

> I just verified that with Eudora 6.2.4 on both Tiger (10.4) and Snow
> Leopard (10.6).
>
> Attachments are retained just fine on incoming messages; it's only
> outbound messages that lose track of them when you move the message
> to another mailbox.
>
> And I was careful to test this with actual attachments, not embedded
> graphics. The latter stay in both incoming and outgoing messages no
> matter where they're moved.

The difference must be in where, within an entire message,
attachments are specified.

For incoming messages, this is always in the message body.

For outgoing messages, I believe that this is never
in the message body, but is always in an extra header
that is generated by Eudora itself.

All of the the "flaky attachment handling" could then be explained by
Eudora's paying attention to the Eudora-generated "X-Attachments" header
only for messages currently in the "Out" mailbox, rather than for all messages
whose TOC entry indicates that the messages were originally composed using Eudora.

Corruption or rebuilding of TOC entries could possibly account for
not recognizing, for messages currently in other mailboxes,
which messages were composed using Eudora.

Are there any other characteristics of messages (e.g. /Italicized/
message summary lines in mailboxes, and re-display of original "composition" headers
in opened messages) that should also occur for messages composed using Eudora,
but which fail to occur for those messages if transferred to other mailboxes?

If _all_ distinguishing characteristics of "outgoing" messages fail to appear
for messages transferred to other mailboxes, then the fault could be
in the failure to recognize which messages were originally "outgoing"
(composed using Eudora), whereas if other characteristics still appear,
but if a message fully opened (in its own separate viewing window)
shows the original "composition headers" section
with the "Attachments" line empty, then the fault is simply
in narrower logic which fails to copy the content of the "X-Attachments"
header into that display line, which apparently works once again
only if the message is moved (or copied?) back to "Out"

Can someone report whether the method of identifying an attachment
(via path and file name, vs. via disk file ID) is the same for
attachments sent (which could be anywhere, on any disk)
vs. attachments received (which are normally in a special designated directory)?
This, too, could have an obvious bearing on the cause of the observed anomaly.

--

[Kathy Morgan]

John H Meyers <jhme...@nomail.invalid> wrote:

> Can someone report whether the method of identifying an attachment
> (via path and file name, vs. via disk file ID) is the same for
> attachments sent (which could be anywhere, on any disk)
> vs. attachments received (which are normally in a special designated
> directory)? This, too, could have an obvious bearing on the cause of the
> observed anomaly.

I've just checked a couple of my messages and it appears that they are
identified differently for an outgoing message than for an incoming one.

For an outgoing message that has been moved to another mailbox, I see at
the end of the headers:
X-Attachments: :Kathy's MacBook:139774:Draft CIP.pdf:


I was not able to open the attachment from within the message by
double-clicking, but in the mailbox listing the attachment showed up and
could be opened by selecting it.

(Coincidentally, earlier in the day, before I saw your message, I had
moved that attachment from the desktop, where it was when I sent the
message, to the Trash. When I attempted to open it, Eudora couldn't
find it. When I realized that I had moved it to the Trash, I pulled it
back out of the Trash to the Desktop, and was then able to open it from
the mailbox listing.)

For an incoming message, I see the list of attachments down at the
bottom of the message in the body:

Content-id: <image0...@01CD02BE.47DBEE90>
Content-type: image/gif; name=image012.gif
Content-disposition: attachment; filename=image012.gif
Content-description: image012.gif
Content-Location: image012.gif

--
Kathy