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I'm now a spammer :))
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Mel Smith
Jan 22, 2012, 2:21:13 PM1/22/12
to
Hi:
As many of you know, I also post new builds to the Harbour Users Group
on a near weekly basis (of course, in addition to the xHarbour builds which
are irregular).
This harbour users group (
http://groups.google.com/group/harbour-users ) is a *moderated* group
(controlled by Viktor Szakats).
Viktor has warned me over the last month or so that I should not be
providing these downloads. But I have been encouraged by several harbour
users that my downloads were very useful to them and I was thanked by them.
Because my posts to the group have now been deleted, those users think I
have forsaken them. I have not !
Additionally, Frank van Nuffel (who visits and contributes to our
xHarbour group and who is also a Harbour developer / user) has contributed
to me a whole body of builds for the Harbour community including the QT
4.8.0 package. A big task !
Frank has invited me to place his work on my download site and I have
selected some packages from his offerings and posted them this morning.
You can visit the Harbour portion of my site and view Franks' work at
www.whosaway.com (Password HB). (Of course, the xHarbour users can still
use 'XHB' to get the the xHarbour set of downloads).
So, I'm officially a *spammer* on the Harbour Users Group now. :((
For those people who use the Harbour package, please check in weekly at
my site, and view/download recent builds
Sadly,
--
Mel Smith
As many of you know, I also post new builds to the Harbour Users Group
on a near weekly basis (of course, in addition to the xHarbour builds which
are irregular).
This harbour users group (
http://groups.google.com/group/harbour-users ) is a *moderated* group
(controlled by Viktor Szakats).
Viktor has warned me over the last month or so that I should not be
providing these downloads. But I have been encouraged by several harbour
users that my downloads were very useful to them and I was thanked by them.
Because my posts to the group have now been deleted, those users think I
have forsaken them. I have not !
Additionally, Frank van Nuffel (who visits and contributes to our
xHarbour group and who is also a Harbour developer / user) has contributed
to me a whole body of builds for the Harbour community including the QT
4.8.0 package. A big task !
Frank has invited me to place his work on my download site and I have
selected some packages from his offerings and posted them this morning.
You can visit the Harbour portion of my site and view Franks' work at
www.whosaway.com (Password HB). (Of course, the xHarbour users can still
use 'XHB' to get the the xHarbour set of downloads).
So, I'm officially a *spammer* on the Harbour Users Group now. :((
For those people who use the Harbour package, please check in weekly at
my site, and view/download recent builds
Sadly,
--
Mel Smith
dlzc
Jan 22, 2012, 8:38:48 PM1/22/12
to
Dear Mel Smith:
On Jan 22, 12:21 pm, "Mel Smith" <med_cutout_syn...@aol.com> wrote:
...
be operating under. Now if they are pushing updates too fast, you
might be a bit out-of-date...
> Additionally, Frank van Nuffel (who visits and contributes
> to our xHarbour group and who is also a Harbour developer
> / user) has contributed to me a whole body of builds for the
> Harbour community including the QT 4.8.0 package. A big
> task !
You'll probably earn him a black eye from his buddies...
> Frank has invited me to place his work on my download
> site and I have selected some packages from his offerings
> and posted them this morning.
Not a third fork...
...
> For those people who use the Harbour package, please
> check in weekly at my site, and view/download recent builds
>
> Sadly,
Don't let it offend you. Seems like all of us suffer from the "good
guy, bad guy" syndrome from time-to-time. Viktor may have his reasons
to limit / track access to their archives, which he cannot do if you
don't offer to tell him (at least statistics).
David A. Smith
On Jan 22, 12:21 pm, "Mel Smith" <med_cutout_syn...@aol.com> wrote:
...
> Viktor has warned me over the last month or so that
> I should not be providing these downloads.
I don't believe you are violating the open source license they used to
> I should not be providing these downloads.
be operating under. Now if they are pushing updates too fast, you
might be a bit out-of-date...
> Additionally, Frank van Nuffel (who visits and contributes
> to our xHarbour group and who is also a Harbour developer
> / user) has contributed to me a whole body of builds for the
> Harbour community including the QT 4.8.0 package. A big
> task !
> Frank has invited me to place his work on my download
> site and I have selected some packages from his offerings
> and posted them this morning.
...
> So, I'm officially a *spammer* on the Harbour Users
> Group now. :((
I consider that high praise. Congratulations.
> Group now. :((
> For those people who use the Harbour package, please
> check in weekly at my site, and view/download recent builds
>
> Sadly,
guy, bad guy" syndrome from time-to-time. Viktor may have his reasons
to limit / track access to their archives, which he cannot do if you
don't offer to tell him (at least statistics).
David A. Smith
Mel Smith
Jan 22, 2012, 10:48:09 PM1/22/12
to
David said (wisely):
I don't believe you are violating the open source license they used to
be operating under. Now if they are pushing updates too fast, you
might be a bit out-of-date...
> Additionally, Frank van Nuffel (who visits and contributes
> to our xHarbour group and who is also a Harbour developer
> / user) has contributed to me a whole body of builds for the
> Harbour community including the QT 4.8.0 package. A big
> task !
You'll probably earn him a black eye from his buddies...
> Frank has invited me to place his work on my download
> site and I have selected some packages from his offerings
> and posted them this morning.
Not a third fork...
...
> So, I'm officially a *spammer* on the Harbour Users
> Group now. :((
I consider that high praise. Congratulations.
> For those people who use the Harbour package, please
> check in weekly at my site, and view/download recent builds
Viktor hasn't asked me for stats yet, altho I can easily comply if he
requests that info.
He would much rather me stop what I'm doing completely. He has
Francesco Perillo running the nightly 'builds', and I found them hard to
easily use, and lacking some things that I thought other dummies like me
could use. So, I began building my own for distribution.
Also, at the time I started, Viktor gave me instructions on how to
proceed, and I was already providing builds for xHarbour, and so it seemed
only fair to try to do the same for the Harbour group. But the Harbour
developers produce a *nightly* build whereas our xHarbour group produces
builds on a irregular basis. So, my builds for Harbour are now spaced about
a week apart, and I build xHarbour just about when it is released.
But, no good deed goes unpunished :))
Thanks for another viewpoint !
--
Mel Smith
I don't believe you are violating the open source license they used to
be operating under. Now if they are pushing updates too fast, you
might be a bit out-of-date...
> Additionally, Frank van Nuffel (who visits and contributes
> to our xHarbour group and who is also a Harbour developer
> / user) has contributed to me a whole body of builds for the
> Harbour community including the QT 4.8.0 package. A big
> task !
You'll probably earn him a black eye from his buddies...
> Frank has invited me to place his work on my download
> site and I have selected some packages from his offerings
> and posted them this morning.
Not a third fork...
...
> So, I'm officially a *spammer* on the Harbour Users
> Group now. :((
I consider that high praise. Congratulations.
> For those people who use the Harbour package, please
> check in weekly at my site, and view/download recent builds
Don't let it offend you. Seems like all of us suffer from the "good
guy, bad guy" syndrome from time-to-time. Viktor may have his reasons
to limit / track access to their archives, which he cannot do if you
don't offer to tell him (at least statistics).
David:
guy, bad guy" syndrome from time-to-time. Viktor may have his reasons
to limit / track access to their archives, which he cannot do if you
don't offer to tell him (at least statistics).
Viktor hasn't asked me for stats yet, altho I can easily comply if he
requests that info.
He would much rather me stop what I'm doing completely. He has
Francesco Perillo running the nightly 'builds', and I found them hard to
easily use, and lacking some things that I thought other dummies like me
could use. So, I began building my own for distribution.
Also, at the time I started, Viktor gave me instructions on how to
proceed, and I was already providing builds for xHarbour, and so it seemed
only fair to try to do the same for the Harbour group. But the Harbour
developers produce a *nightly* build whereas our xHarbour group produces
builds on a irregular basis. So, my builds for Harbour are now spaced about
a week apart, and I build xHarbour just about when it is released.
But, no good deed goes unpunished :))
Thanks for another viewpoint !
--
Mel Smith
Mel Smith
Jan 23, 2012, 12:14:58 PM1/23/12
to
Hi:
Below is Viktor's response to my 'bleating' about being a spammer.
On reading it over and realizing his arguments have strong value, I have
now decided to stop publishing any further builds for Harbour.
I will continue builds for xHarbour until further notice -- or until
Patrick Mast or Ron Pinkas convince me to drop that too :((
--
Mel Smith
****** Viktor's email to me *******
Hi Mel,
First even I'm not sure why I'm writing this to you or why
do I care, but I guess it's because the amount of work
invested in making Harbour something useful and the
community coherent and seeing signs of destructing it
is bothering. So just to clear that off, I have no personal
or business reasons.
As for your reasons I'm less sure. You suddenly came to
the list and started to provide your private builds to the
public, when we already had our own, which was and is
much more powerful, updated daily automatically and in
sync with our stable releases and support efforts.
So far the only reason you could cite for your service,
is that the official builds are too complicated or unusable
for you. I haven't seen any such generic complaints about
our official builds from others, anyhow if someone spots
a problem, the usual and normal solution (on any support
lists) is to describe the exact problem, and/or make
suggestions. You didn't do any of these.
What you did instead is staying silent and kept advertising
your own builds two times a week (despite my kind and
repeated public requests), featuring basically the same
things as the official builds features (but with undefined
differences), on the Harbour's official support forum.
As I wrote you a few times, Harbour's support capacity
is quite minimal, and it certainly doesn't have the capacity
to support one official build _plus_ any number of private
builds. It could, but it would mean that help won't be effective
and important things would be missed. F.e. the first answer
should always be "whose build do you use?" which is
extreme time-wasting, and we've been there years ago,
and with lots of work we managed to put that behind.
And yes, as a bad side-effect your downloads will be
missed from our aggregate sf.net stats. Download stats
are important to rank Harbour where it really belongs.
I also suggested to start your own mailing list, or to point
anything your build offers as an extra. You stayed silent,
kept advertising your builds.
You stated clear misinformation too (like Harbour's builds
require a password and that certain problems are not
happening with your builds, while they were clearly different
issues and happened regardless of builds.). Then you
ignored to address these.
The whole issue has nothing to do with Harbour being
open source. You perfectly know it is open source, you can
read the license, get the source, get the binaries, you can
even fork it, you can build it, you can publish your own
builds and changes, whatever. But nothing says you can
get free publicity and support for your private build on the
mainstream mailing lists. (and no, adding 'sorry Viktor' won't
solve above problems)
BTW, Harbour's goal since many years is that _everyone_
can create her/his own build extremely easily on any
platforms, with any C compiler with any 3rd party packages,
and many users do this without much fanfare or support
needs. IOW, doing a build in Harbour is easy, and not such
a big feat as it is in xhb, where such build service (as f.e.
yours there) is important and useful for the community.
In Harbour, it'd be useful if you could _point to problems_,
and we could fix it so that _everyone_ could benefit,
including stable release users.
This whole above story and now your complaining on xhb
and crying "spammer" and citing me in person all of the place
just reassures my feelings that your intentions were never that
good or meant for the benefit of Harbour community. For
sure it is not a good way to build trust between any parties.
If you're truly interested in being part of Harbour community
and improving it, you're welcome to point your usability
problems, build issues, other problems or suggestions. You
may even want to help Francesco along with Frank to update
the QT on the official nightly, it'd nice move (even though QT
4.8.0 doesn't give much actual benefit as of yet.)
I'm not expecting any change in your behavior or changing
your agenda (which may be much stronger than any Harbour
interests can ever be), anyhow it's sad to see how efforts to
keep this language segregated just cannot die off for good.
BTW, do you use Harbour?
Viktor
Below is Viktor's response to my 'bleating' about being a spammer.
On reading it over and realizing his arguments have strong value, I have
now decided to stop publishing any further builds for Harbour.
I will continue builds for xHarbour until further notice -- or until
Patrick Mast or Ron Pinkas convince me to drop that too :((
--
Mel Smith
****** Viktor's email to me *******
Hi Mel,
First even I'm not sure why I'm writing this to you or why
do I care, but I guess it's because the amount of work
invested in making Harbour something useful and the
community coherent and seeing signs of destructing it
is bothering. So just to clear that off, I have no personal
or business reasons.
As for your reasons I'm less sure. You suddenly came to
the list and started to provide your private builds to the
public, when we already had our own, which was and is
much more powerful, updated daily automatically and in
sync with our stable releases and support efforts.
So far the only reason you could cite for your service,
is that the official builds are too complicated or unusable
for you. I haven't seen any such generic complaints about
our official builds from others, anyhow if someone spots
a problem, the usual and normal solution (on any support
lists) is to describe the exact problem, and/or make
suggestions. You didn't do any of these.
What you did instead is staying silent and kept advertising
your own builds two times a week (despite my kind and
repeated public requests), featuring basically the same
things as the official builds features (but with undefined
differences), on the Harbour's official support forum.
As I wrote you a few times, Harbour's support capacity
is quite minimal, and it certainly doesn't have the capacity
to support one official build _plus_ any number of private
builds. It could, but it would mean that help won't be effective
and important things would be missed. F.e. the first answer
should always be "whose build do you use?" which is
extreme time-wasting, and we've been there years ago,
and with lots of work we managed to put that behind.
And yes, as a bad side-effect your downloads will be
missed from our aggregate sf.net stats. Download stats
are important to rank Harbour where it really belongs.
I also suggested to start your own mailing list, or to point
anything your build offers as an extra. You stayed silent,
kept advertising your builds.
You stated clear misinformation too (like Harbour's builds
require a password and that certain problems are not
happening with your builds, while they were clearly different
issues and happened regardless of builds.). Then you
ignored to address these.
The whole issue has nothing to do with Harbour being
open source. You perfectly know it is open source, you can
read the license, get the source, get the binaries, you can
even fork it, you can build it, you can publish your own
builds and changes, whatever. But nothing says you can
get free publicity and support for your private build on the
mainstream mailing lists. (and no, adding 'sorry Viktor' won't
solve above problems)
BTW, Harbour's goal since many years is that _everyone_
can create her/his own build extremely easily on any
platforms, with any C compiler with any 3rd party packages,
and many users do this without much fanfare or support
needs. IOW, doing a build in Harbour is easy, and not such
a big feat as it is in xhb, where such build service (as f.e.
yours there) is important and useful for the community.
In Harbour, it'd be useful if you could _point to problems_,
and we could fix it so that _everyone_ could benefit,
including stable release users.
This whole above story and now your complaining on xhb
and crying "spammer" and citing me in person all of the place
just reassures my feelings that your intentions were never that
good or meant for the benefit of Harbour community. For
sure it is not a good way to build trust between any parties.
If you're truly interested in being part of Harbour community
and improving it, you're welcome to point your usability
problems, build issues, other problems or suggestions. You
may even want to help Francesco along with Frank to update
the QT on the official nightly, it'd nice move (even though QT
4.8.0 doesn't give much actual benefit as of yet.)
I'm not expecting any change in your behavior or changing
your agenda (which may be much stronger than any Harbour
interests can ever be), anyhow it's sad to see how efforts to
keep this language segregated just cannot die off for good.
BTW, do you use Harbour?
Viktor
Ron Pinkas
Jan 23, 2012, 1:13:07 PM1/23/12
to
Dear Mel.
Victor's dictator like attitude and methods, characterized by such rude
replies, and specifically arrogant and self righteous statements like:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(were he sincerely believes that if anyone doesn't submit to his logic then
his/her INTENTIONS MUST BE QUESTIONED) were the primary reason I was forced
to leave Harbour and to start the xHarbour project.
Proving personal builds of Harbour, for which ever reason, or even just
because you simply like to, is absolutely legitimate, and should not have
been the ground for excluding from the Official Harbour List, even when
technically the ADMIN of such list can exercise his power to do as he wants.
Naturally if your build are of no value to such LIST Readers then by natural
process your downloads would dwindle and finally disappear and similarly
your notices of such builds. This would be the NORMAL cycle in any FREE
environment.
Rest assured that regardless of professional and/or business conflicts no
one at the xHarbour community is in any position to harass you like that.
Sorry,
Ron
Victor's dictator like attitude and methods, characterized by such rude
replies, and specifically arrogant and self righteous statements like:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This whole above story and now your complaining on xhb
and crying "spammer" and citing me in person all of the place
just reassures my feelings that your intentions were never that
good or meant for the benefit of Harbour community. For
sure it is not a good way to build trust between any parties.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and crying "spammer" and citing me in person all of the place
just reassures my feelings that your intentions were never that
good or meant for the benefit of Harbour community. For
sure it is not a good way to build trust between any parties.
(were he sincerely believes that if anyone doesn't submit to his logic then
his/her INTENTIONS MUST BE QUESTIONED) were the primary reason I was forced
to leave Harbour and to start the xHarbour project.
Proving personal builds of Harbour, for which ever reason, or even just
because you simply like to, is absolutely legitimate, and should not have
been the ground for excluding from the Official Harbour List, even when
technically the ADMIN of such list can exercise his power to do as he wants.
Naturally if your build are of no value to such LIST Readers then by natural
process your downloads would dwindle and finally disappear and similarly
your notices of such builds. This would be the NORMAL cycle in any FREE
environment.
Rest assured that regardless of professional and/or business conflicts no
one at the xHarbour community is in any position to harass you like that.
Sorry,
Ron
Mel Smith
Jan 23, 2012, 2:53:41 PM1/23/12
to
Ron: said:
> Rest assured that regardless of professional and/or business conflicts no
> one at the xHarbour community is in any position to harass you like that.
Ron:
> Rest assured that regardless of professional and/or business conflicts no
> one at the xHarbour community is in any position to harass you like that.
Thank you for your remarks.
but, in any case, I have already closed off normal access to my Harbour
download site.
-Mel
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