You know that another season has come and gone, when the trees shed their leaves, winter blankets the northern hemisphere, and another TCL IS DYING thread gets posted to clt.
One issue that was brought up at the 14th Conference's Town Hall meeting was that of publicity. While the concern at the time was publicity for the Conference, I think it speaks to a larger issue: why don't we have hordes and hordes of Tcl developers like other (you fill in the blank) languages.
One item that is abundantly clear is that while more hands to reap the harvest are nice, the quality of the new hands is more important than the quantity. We don't need more programmers so much as more programmers who are experienced and competant in both C and Tcl.
And competant people in C and or Tcl are members of an elite kind of society rivaled only by the martial arts, or certain artisan trades.
So I propose that we take an elitist view. Tcl is a secret society. We have our own handshakes. Our own customs. Members of the society are highly placed in the engineering and technology community from around the world. When I hear about what we all work on, I don't think it too much of a stretch to add a Jacob's ladder or two, and a hunchback doing the legwork. At our conference, all we really need is a large chair with buttons, and someone stroking a cat.
What we need to do is exploit this image. Turn the "You aren't popular na na na na na na" on it's ear and retort: "Yes, but we know what we are doing." While we welcome all, to fit in requires a certain mindset and devotion to the craft.
How do we exploit this image? T-shirts that play off of the cultural 'evil geniuses'. Bond villians. Mad (or Rocket) scientists. Military strategists. The sorts of images that the public will readily relate to "smart, but I don't understand what they are doing."
I want people who are looking to attend the proceedings to not get this image of old men talking about plumbing. I want them to think that the trilateral commission is getting together to decide how high the hem lines on skirts should be this year.
And having attended a few conferences thus far, that latter is actually closer to the truth.
> So I propose that we take an elitist view. Tcl is a secret society. We > have our own handshakes. Our own customs. Members of the society are > highly placed in the engineering and technology community from around > the world. When I hear about what we all work on, I don't think it too > much of a stretch to add a Jacob's ladder or two, and a hunchback > doing the legwork. At our conference, all we really need is a large > chair with buttons, and someone stroking a cat.
> What we need to do is exploit this image. Turn the "You aren't popular > na na na na na na" on it's ear and retort: "Yes, but we know what we > are doing." While we welcome all, to fit in requires a certain mindset > and devotion to the craft.
Amen, brother! What a good contrast to the usual FUD about Tcl's future. We are the future.
And don't forget that as few as we are, we are pretty well connected - not only at conferences, but with chat, Wiki, and even c.l.t :^)
> So I propose that we take an elitist view. Tcl is a secret society. We > have our own handshakes. Our own customs. Members of the society are > highly placed in the engineering and technology community from around > the world. When I hear about what we all work on, I don't think it too > much of a stretch to add a Jacob's ladder or two, and a hunchback > doing the legwork. At our conference, all we really need is a large > chair with buttons, and someone stroking a cat.
It's really unfortunate that tcl is not popular and well known to the extent it deserves. I'm a small fish in a large international company and yet I am the only one that uses tcl. Every time I create an application to be used at any one of our facilities around the world, I have to first explain to their IT manager and employees (some don't speak English) what tcl is (even veteran IT personnel never heard of it), and then justify why using tcl fits their needs and won't cause regrets. I then to have to go through the same drill a while later.
Also, the tcl community being relatively small leads to long wait times for problems in packages to be fixed. I had to abandon a couple of important projects using tcl because I needed to use a package which contains some limitations that could've easily been fixed, IMHO. Explaining this to my boss was no fun, especially when I brag about tcl like a proud parent.
I respect all the regulars on this board that help people like me in need. Since I am not a naturally talented programmer who can contribute to clt like most of you can, my humble way of contributing comes in the form of buying tcl books and software licenses, and share them with other individuals whom might show interest.
I honestly believe the tcl community needs to go the extra mile and promote this excellent tool.
> Also, the tcl community being relatively small leads to long wait > times for problems in packages to be fixed. I had to abandon a couple > of important projects using tcl because I needed to use a package > which contains some limitations that could've easily been fixed, > IMHO. Explaining this to my boss was no fun, especially when I brag > about tcl like a proud parent.
Umm.. Tcl is open-source ("free") software which you can get for $0.00. And the same amount refunded if disappointed...
> I respect all the regulars on this board that help people like me in > need. Since I am not a naturally talented programmer who can > contribute to clt like most of you can, my humble way of contributing > comes in the form of buying tcl books and software licenses, and share > them with other individuals whom might show interest.
Buying books is good (thank you!), though the market is surely declining. And licenses? If you buy licenses from ActiveState, your bug reports will surely be taken more seriously there...
> I honestly believe the tcl community needs to go the extra mile and > promote this excellent tool.
Oh well, the Tcl community altogether goes many miles, but what are we to say against popular fashion? I think it's good to have a choice of many languages, as long as we still can choose Tcl for where it works best. (In other cases, I prefer awk). But the hype's not on Tcl's side... so what, we code away, and deliver simple, elegant tools that just do the job.
> > Also, the tcl community being relatively small leads to long wait > > times for problems in packages to be fixed. I had to abandon a couple > > of important projects using tcl because I needed to use a package > > which contains some limitations that could've easily been fixed, > > IMHO. Explaining this to my boss was no fun, especially when I brag > > about tcl like a proud parent.
> Umm.. Tcl is open-source ("free") software which you can get for > $0.00. And the same amount refunded if disappointed...
Correct. My intention is to provide business to a company that maintains/develops and packages tcl as a whole
Good point. I will contact activestate regarding this issue, even though they did not author that package, nor do they distribute it.
> Oh well, the Tcl community altogether goes many miles, but what are we > to say against popular fashion? I think it's good to have a choice of > many languages, as long as we still can choose Tcl for where it works > best. (In other cases, I prefer awk). But the hype's not on Tcl's > side... so what, we code away, and deliver simple, elegant tools that > just do the job.
I'm all for having many sensible languages floating around. But the fact that tcl is so obscure works to my disadvantage as a builder of modest applications. In the IT world, I found it hard to convince people to use a product built from something they never heard of.
On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:21:39 -0700, sd <sham...@hotmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 3, 12:03 pm, suchenwi wrote: >> the Tcl community altogether goes many miles, but what are we >> to say against popular fashion? ... so what, we code away
If I ruled the world, programmers would still use keypunch machines and IBM System/360's. IMO, it never got any better than that.
> the fact that tcl is so obscure works to my disadvantage as a > builder of modest applications. In the IT world, I found it > hard to convince people to use a product built from something > they never heard of.
So by definition, Tcl developers must therefore be, illuminati.
Donal K. Fellows wrote: > Sean Woods wrote: >> Members of the society are >> highly placed in the engineering and technology community from around >> the world.
> Don't be ridiculous. Everyone knows there are no Secret Tcl > Illuminati.
> Donal.
I'll buy that on a shirt.
-- David Gravereaux <davyg...@pobox.com> [species:human; planet:earth,milkyway(western spiral arm),alpha sector]
"If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern it nor the wise make plans against it."
--Sun Tzu, The Art of War
On Oct 3, 12:56 pm, John Kelly <j...@isp2dial.com> wrote:
> > the fact that tcl is so obscure works to my disadvantage as a > > builder of modest applications. In the IT world, I found it > > hard to convince people to use a product built from something > > they never heard of.
> So by definition, Tcl developers must therefore be, illuminati.
> "If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no > perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is > fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the > formless: if it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern > it nor the wise make plans against it."
> --Sun Tzu, The Art of War
> On Oct 3, 12:56 pm, John Kelly <j...@isp2dial.com> wrote:
> > > the fact that tcl is so obscure works to my disadvantage as a > > > builder of modest applications. In the IT world, I found it > > > hard to convince people to use a product built from something > > > they never heard of.
> > So by definition, Tcl developers must therefore be, illuminati.- Hide quoted text -
On Oct 3, 11:21 am, sd <sham...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm all for having many sensible languages floating around. But the > fact that tcl is so obscure works to my disadvantage as a builder of > modest applications. In the IT world, I found it hard to convince > people to use a product built from something they never heard of.
For me, so much comes down to the name. I really, truly hate the "tickle" thing. Tools are cool, "control languages" imply power but "tickle" - ugh. It diminishes the language before anyone can even see the potential.
I learned coding on the midrange platform and I have no trouble seeing and thinking t-c-l, since I spent many years writing CL scripts but if I say it out loud, people correct me with the "tickle" pronunciation and all I can do is cringe. (I'm a middle-aged female, so if I can't say it, no wonder the guys won't touch it.) I appreciate that back in the day, it might have seemed cute and user-friendly but I bet usage would double if the community could reformulate the name.
Why wasn't "tackle" used initially? Tackle boxes are cool. It even fits with the feather icon. :-)
On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:57:08 -0700, nobodywhoareyou
<terryo...@gmail.com> wrote: >I say it out loud, people correct me with the "tickle" pronunciation >and all I can do is cringe. (I'm a middle-aged female, so if I can't >say it, no wonder the guys won't touch it.) I appreciate that back in >the day, it might have seemed cute and user-friendly but I bet usage >would double if the community could reformulate the name.
Yeah, who wants to go on a date with Tom Raper. If I had a bad name, I would change it.
>I'm all for having many sensible languages floating around. But the >fact that tcl is so obscure works to my disadvantage as a builder of >modest applications. In the IT world, I found it hard to convince >people to use a product built from something they never heard of.
. . . Another approach several of us have employed--often successfully!--is to say, "I built this project with a high-quality C library."
Cameron Laird wrote: > Another approach several of us have employed--often > successfully!--is to say, "I built this project with > a high-quality C library."
Bryan Oakley wrote: > Cameron Laird wrote: >> Another approach several of us have employed--often >> successfully!--is to say, "I built this project with >> a high-quality C library."
cla...@lairds.us (Cameron Laird) writes: > Another approach several of us have employed--often > successfully!--is to say, "I built this project with > a high-quality C library."
"It was *that* high-quality I didn't even need to write a single line of C to make my application work." ;-)
Jochem
-- "A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
<richard.suchenwirth-bauersa...@siemens.com> wrote: >John Kelly schrieb: >> Yeah, who wants to go on a date with Tom Raper. If I had a bad name, >> I would change it. >I have no problems with "tickle", but everyone who has can always call >the language "Tool Control", which may sound stronger :^)
In the case of Tcl, I don't really think a new name will improve its popularity.
There are too many technologies and too many tools. They can't all stand out among the crowd. Some become popular, others don't. Who knows why. That's just the way the wind blows, something man cannot change.
>> Another approach several of us have employed--often >> successfully!--is to say, "I built this project with >> a high-quality C library."
> "It was *that* high-quality I didn't even need to write a single line of > C to make my application work." ;-)
That was just a few runtime configuration settings. Not programming at all. After all, programming requires tens of thousands of Indian wage slaves and investments of hundreds of millions of dollars. Everyone knows that!
