Future of Dolphin
Andy Bower
announce that Blair and I have made the decision to stop selling and
developing Dolphin Smalltalk. We will continue to distribute the free
version of Dolphin X6 indefinitely but, as from today, we will not be
selling the Professional version. Some limited support will remain in
place for existing users of X6 but there will not be a future major
release of Dolphin for .net (or Mac or Linux).
We have come to this point for a number of reasons, the most potent of
which is the fact that it is just not commercially viable (and to be
truthful it has never really been so) to continue development of the
product. There are simply not enough people who are able to recognise
that Smalltalk offers something much better than the tools and
languages "du jour". The shift of Microsoft away from the Win32 API to
the .net platform (and the associated presentation foundation) has not
helped and would mean a dedicated development effort of sufficient
intensity that we just can't commit to it given the potential returns.
We started Object Arts almost exactly 10 years ago with a view to
continuing the development of Dolphin which had been started and then
abruptly terminated at our previous company, Intuitive Systems Ltd.
Both of us were of a mind that this was something that needed to be
done; not only because Smalltalk was quite the best development
environment we had come across but because we felt that the work
already completed on Dolphin was some of the best we had achieved in
our careers to that point. It seemed important that Dolphin Smalltalk
should be carried forward and that other developers be given the chance
to "see the light". These sentiments remain with us today but the cold
reality is that we have to look for other sources of income for our
families and the future.
As an example as to why this has become a necessary decision, I'd like
to open up the sales figures for Dolphin Professional this last year.
So far in 2007 we have received 29 orders and in the last 12 months, at
total of 50 orders. We probably have an active user database of around
500 users but simple maths shows that this is plainly insufficient to
support any business plan let alone one that needs to dedicate
substantial additional effort for future development.
So what of the future? Blair has taken up a job with Microsoft
Research in the UK and I am occupied full-time developing stock trading
systems under the Alchemetrics banner (still using Dolphin Smalltalk).
The latter should mean that Dolphin will not die quickly because we
have a wealth of software that relies on it to continuing operating
smoothly. The nature of Smalltalk with the fact that most of the source
is "open" means that existing users should be able to continue using
the Dolphin products and not have to port away to other platforms (and
hopefully never to C# or Java). We will try to issue the 6.1
maintenance release that we have been using internally (wrapping all
outstanding bug fixes) before the end of this year.
There will no doubt be a number of you who would suggest that we Open
Source Dolphin. Of course, you are free harbour such opinions and to
discuss the idea on the newsgroup but please do not expect us to be
persuaded. It simply will not happen! Both Blair and I dislike the
Open Source movement intensely and we would rather see Dolphin
gradually disappear into the sands of time than instantly lose all
commercial value in one fell swoop. But this is a discussion for
another thread. The best, and probably only, way in which the future
of Dolphin could be assured would be a sale of the assets to another
company. Whilst we are not actively seeking buyers, serious
negotiations can be started by writing to me at my e-mail address.
At this point, I cannot sign off without commenting on the enthusiasm
and talent in the Dolphin community that has sustained us all these
years. There are people on this newsgroup who have been with us since
the early days back in 1997. There are a number of you who have
supported Dolphin far beyond the call of duty and I sincerely thank you
for this. I don't want to name names for fear that I forget someone
but you know who you are and I thank you again. Doubtless, many of you
will be disappointed by this decision but I hope that you understand
now why this has to be.
Best regards,
Andy Bower
Dolphin Support
PS: we came to this decision several weeks ago. For those of you who
have recently purchased Dolphin Professional and are now unhappy with
the decision, we will honour requests for a refund for any purchases
made within the last 60 days. AB.
Don Rylander
It is indeed a sad loss, I imagine especially after all you've put into it.
Dolphin really is a wonderful product, which made it a pleasure to develop
our own software. I for one wish you and Blair the best in your future
endeavors.
Don R
KlausK
this are very bad news, I am sad to hear so.
I wish you all the best for your plans.
Cheers,
Klaus
P.S.
I am open for every suggestions of funding a limited support and,
hopefully, a accommodation to future releases of Windows.
James Foster
Thanks so much for sharing the current situation and decision. I
understand that it was difficult and I very much respect the business
realities that brought you to this. It does, finally, answer the
question of "How do these guys survive [on the low price they charge]?"
You have done a great work. At work just yesterday we were discussing
your OOPSLA demo of the pair programming dog. I still consider that the
best demo of all time (does anyone have a video of it?). Thanks again
for all you have done for the Smalltalk community.
James
Andreas Wacknitz
your silence in this newsgroup for a while.
What I didn't expect was the low number of interests in Professional
Dolphin.
I wish you and Blair all the best for your future and hope that you will
remain a Smalltalker.
Regards
Andreas
Jochen Riekhof
this is apparently the worst to come out for the question asked, but
given the numbers it is completely understandable to me. I wish you both
all the best for the future and thank you for this great environment!
Of course and hope for everyone in the Dolphin community that some way
will open that allows Dolphins Professional Version to be (commercially)
available to the world for some time longer. Time will tell...
Ciao
...Jochen
P.S. Of course I
P.P.S. Hopefully Blair has some influence at MS research that eventually
leads to a more dynamic-language capable VM
davorin....@gmail.com
> It is with great regret and more than a touch of sadness that I have to
> announce that Blair and I have made the decision to stop selling and
> developing Dolphin Smalltalk. We will continue to distribute the free
> version of Dolphin X6 indefinitely but, as from today, we will not be
> selling the Professional version. Some limited support will remain in
> place for existing users of X6 but there will not be a future major
> release of Dolphin for .net (or Mac or Linux).
Andy, what to say, I am really sorry that you and Blair had to stop
working on Dolphin. That had to be a difficult decision.
I would certanly like to see the way for Dolphin to survive, since I
would really hate to stop using it as my main professional development
tool, thou things do not seem great at the moment.
So if any window of opportunity opens, please consider it very
carefully. I understand that Dolphin is your hard, quite possibly life
work, and that you would hate to see its value disappearing. But if
occasion arises so that you could put Dolphin in some safe hands, you
would make great thing for us, your users, by doing so.
Lastly, please reconsider your decision that you would not sell
Professional version. If you clearly state that you do not longer
intend to develop and support it, I do not see why would you not let
someone buy it if he chooses so. I guess there would not be many
sales, but it would make me much more comfortable if I would know that
I could buy some more licenses if I would need them.
Thanks!
rush
David Gorisek
would you consider to continue offering support for Dolphin if enough
businesses sign up for some sort of support agreement with annual
support payments which would be somewhere around 1500-2000 EUR or such?
I guess this would not be much for companies which would then still
profit from not having to migrate to another language or environment.
I would also like to hear from others. How many companies here would be
interested in seeing Dolphin being further supported and would not mind
having to pay such sum for support? Or maybe if everyone interested
would send private e-mail to Andy and then he would tell us his price to
continue supporting Dolphin, simply based on the number of interested
clients by following the formula price = needed budget / n. of
customers ...
Anyway, thank you for all the work so far! Dolphin is simply the best
Smalltalk development environment available.
Best regards,
David
Eliot Miranda
> Andy,
>
> would you consider to continue offering support for Dolphin if enough
> businesses sign up for some sort of support agreement with annual
> support payments which would be somewhere around 1500-2000 EUR or such?
David, do the math. On the low side people of Andy and Blair's
experience could expect 100k EUR each/year and as people who have set up
their own business with a superb product could reasonably expect much
more. Sop the customer base has to find, say, 200k to 400k EUR a year.
Can the commercial Dolphin user base provide this kind of revenue?
>
> I guess this would not be much for companies which would then still
> profit from not having to migrate to another language or environment.
How many Dolphin users are not one-person shops and have substantial (~>
1m EUR) revenue from a Dolphin product?
>
> I would also like to hear from others. How many companies here would be
> interested in seeing Dolphin being further supported and would not mind
> having to pay such sum for support? Or maybe if everyone interested
> would send private e-mail to Andy and then he would tell us his price to
> continue supporting Dolphin, simply based on the number of interested
> clients by following the formula price = needed budget / n. of
> customers ...
Flesh this out. You can expect some loss of customers due to the
announcement. Blair must be replaced or tempted back from MS. Andy is
(presumably) part-time as he (presumably) has commitments to the
Alchemetrics product. What does a five year business plan look like
with potental variations in the customer base of, say, 20% loss per year
to 10% growth per year? What's the marketing budget? What would you
spend where to grow the customer base (books, conferrence/trade show
appearances, etc, etc).
>
> Anyway, thank you for all the work so far! Dolphin is simply the best
> Smalltalk development environment available.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David
--
The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in Calvin &
the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. Hobbes.
--
Eliot ,,,^..^,,, Smalltalk - scene not herd
Guillermo Sapaya
Please, could you consider this option?
In our case, almost two years ago we had deciding about wich environment
choose to migrate from VS. The strongest options was Dolphin and VW.
We decided for Dolphin! And nowadays are very happy about that.
For almost two year were working (two people) on build our new platform
over Dolphin.
Nowadays we have almost all our base frameworks developed over Dolphin
and are considering include at least 5 developers more to the group and
build our business products over these base frameworks.
It is very difficult to us to say our customers that have waiting for
our new products: "Wait for anothers two years because we have taken a
wrong decision".
I would like to know if David's option will be possible. We are decided
to colaborate.
Guys, don't let Dolphin die! Is the best Smalltalk environment!!!
Best Regards!
Guillermo Sapaya
David Gorisek escribió:
Jochen Riekhof
hmm, Davids suggestion sounds resonable to me if it means some continued
support for the /present/ Dolphin X6 Professional, not new developments
(e.g. .net adaption etc.). MS/Windows has to support old apps and COM
anyway for some more years, and occasional patch releases integrating
just community-generated bugfixes should be not too much work assuming
that at least Andy is working with Dolphin for some more time anyway.
I agree with you that an adaption of Dolphin to .net would be a major
undertaking IMO and I can perfectly understand the reasoning behind the
OA decision (albeit it does not make it less terrible for me). Given the
numbers from Andy the present community cannot pay this.
Ciao
...Jochen
IanB
Sad news, albeit not completely unexpected, and an understandable
decision given the figures quoted.
It's been an interesting ride over the years so thanks to both of you
for that. You've nearly always been able and willing to supply that
little extra bit of support and background detail that users don't
normally get and that will be missed.
Best wishes for the future
--
Ian
The From address is valid
Gavin Scott
> would you consider to continue offering support for Dolphin if enough
> businesses sign up for some sort of support agreement with annual
> support payments which would be somewhere around 1500-2000 EUR or such?
I have some experience with similar situations and in those cases I
was rather amazed that on the one hand a great many people would
complain about the horrible impact on them of a product's elimination
yet when asked for a show of hands of companies that would be willing
to help support the continuation of that product not a single one was
willing to do so.
I'm very sorry to see Dolphin go this way, but I'm definitely glad I
bought my copy when I could (and I guess happy that I made up 2% of
their income for last year :P
I'd also like to suggest that they consider keeping the infrastructure
in place to allow people to buy new Pro licenses. This will likely be
critical to some users who need to add an additional development seat
at some point or otherwise deal with evolving customer licensing
requirements.
The other option I would suggest is to simply reduce the license fee
for Pro to zero (assuming that's possible and not prevented by content
they licensed from others) making it free to everyone to use.
This might actually increase the user base at no cost to them and it
leaves open the possibility of some day doing a version 7.0 which
they could of course charge money for again.
Anyhow, good luck to you guys.
G.
Bill Schwab
> It is with great regret and more than a touch of sadness that I have to
> announce that Blair and I have made the decision to stop selling and
> developing Dolphin Smalltalk. We will continue to distribute the free
> version of Dolphin X6 indefinitely but, as from today, we will not be
> selling the Professional version. Some limited support will remain in
> place for existing users of X6 but there will not be a future major
> release of Dolphin for .net (or Mac or Linux).
I am sorry to hear that. Thanks for 10+ years of a great product.
> We have come to this point for a number of reasons, the most potent of
> which is the fact that it is just not commercially viable (and to be
> truthful it has never really been so) to continue development of the
> product. There are simply not enough people who are able to recognise
> that Smalltalk offers something much better than the tools and
> languages "du jour". The shift of Microsoft away from the Win32 API to
> the .net platform (and the associated presentation foundation) has not
> helped and would mean a dedicated development effort of sufficient
> intensity that we just can't commit to it given the potential returns.
I am not a gambler, but I play a good game of five card draw when
bragging rights are at stake. I very much doubt that Microsoft can get
away with killing the win32 api. They very much want to do so (I have
long described them as being without honor - now with one notable
exception), but Linux is getting too good, OpenOffice too functional,
MySQL too feature rich, etc., for them to get away with it any time soon.
With that said, I would urge you to build the alternate view system that
(IIRC) is anticipated in your design. Choose GTK, wx, whatever, and
give it go. You need list, text and image presenters; scrolling is
essential. Eye candy really isn't all that important. I think you
would find volunteers at the ready to remove the Win32 dependencies,
with the result being a cross-platform tool with a functional (perhaps
even elegant) GUI, and an Object-Arts VM.
For what return? Well...
> So what of the future? Blair has taken up a job with Microsoft
> Research in the UK and I am occupied full-time developing stock trading
> systems under the Alchemetrics banner (still using Dolphin Smalltalk).
> The latter should mean that Dolphin will not die quickly because we
> have a wealth of software that relies on it to continuing operating
> smoothly.
... you suffer the addiction too. I think you could build a very good
cross-platform system using Dolphin to boot strap it. With mutually
agreeable licensing, I suspect you would find plenty of community help
in tearing out the MS-dependent parts. The result would be a
Dolphin-sprited platform we all can use to our respective advantages on
the OS of our choosing, and regardless of what MS does next.
> The nature of Smalltalk with the fact that most of the source
> is "open" means that existing users should be able to continue using
> the Dolphin products and not have to port away to other platforms (and
> hopefully never to C# or Java). We will try to issue the 6.1
> maintenance release that we have been using internally (wrapping all
> outstanding bug fixes) before the end of this year.
Much appreciated.
Thanks again, and best wishes.
Bill
--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
bi...@anest4.anest.ufl.edu
Gavin Scott
> I am not a gambler, but I play a good game of five card draw when
> bragging rights are at stake. I very much doubt that Microsoft can get
> away with killing the win32 api.
Yeah, I'm still very happy with Dolphin's very nice Win32 implementation
and feel no pressure at all to move to .net or cross-platform, or
anything else, or at least not enough to let it force me to choose an
inferior development tool when I have something better available.
> Eye candy really isn't all that important.
Yes it is, otherwise we'd all use Squeak :-P
G.
Jeff M.
follow up with the primary focus here as well...
Keep your heads up. Most people don't get to spend 10 years of their
lives doing what they love and contributing something truly great to
their peers at the same time. Don't walk away from OA feeling
defeated. Thump your chests and look back saying, "we did that!"
You made Dolphin. Dolphin brought me to Smalltalk, and [sadly?] I
never want to look back and dread every waking day spent coding C++.
Thanks, guys (I think)! :-)
Jeff M.
Bill Schwab
> Bill Schwab <bsc...@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:
>> I am not a gambler, but I play a good game of five card draw when
>> bragging rights are at stake. I very much doubt that Microsoft can get
>> away with killing the win32 api.
>
> Yeah, I'm still very happy with Dolphin's very nice Win32 implementation
> and feel no pressure at all to move to .net or cross-platform, or
> anything else, or at least not enough to let it force me to choose an
> inferior development tool when I have something better available.
Re .net, I agree - I feel no pressure. Cross-platform is another story.
>> Eye candy really isn't all that important.
>
> Yes it is, otherwise we'd all use Squeak :-P
Smileys aside, I'm sorry you see it that way. Squeak's problems have
very little to do with its being funny looking, and everything to do
with ignoring (is it active contempt for??) wide-spread user interface
conventions that work fairly well.
Have a good one,
davorin....@gmail.com
wrote:
> Andy,
>
> would you consider to continue offering support for Dolphin if enough
> businesses sign up for some sort of support agreement with annual
> support payments which would be somewhere around 1500-2000 EUR or such?
>
> I guess this would not be much for companies which would then still
> profit from not having to migrate to another language or environment.
>
> I would also like to hear from others. How many companies here would be
> interested in seeing Dolphin being further supported and would not mind
> having to pay such sum for support? Or maybe if everyone interested
> would send private e-mail to Andy and then he would tell us his price to
> continue supporting Dolphin, simply based on the number of interested
> clients by following the formula price = needed budget / n. of
> customers ...
Hi,
I would be interested in. I also welcome other ideas if this one does
not turn to be workable, and I'll try to contribute to solution.
rush
quix...@gmail.com
> There will no doubt be a number of you who would suggest that we Open
> Source Dolphin. Of course, you are free harbour such opinions and to
> discuss the idea on the newsgroup but please do not expect us to be
> persuaded. It simply will not happen! Both Blair and I dislike the
> Open Source movement intensely and we would rather see Dolphin
> gradually disappear into the sands of time than instantly lose all
> commercial value in one fell swoop. But this is a discussion for
> another thread. The best, and probably only, way in which the future
> of Dolphin could be assured would be a sale of the assets to another
> company. Whilst we are not actively seeking buyers, serious
> negotiations can be started by writing to me at my e-mail address.
Under the circumstances, I think I can understand your reluctance
towards the idea of open sourcing, but have you considered an in-
between solution, such as doing a fund raising to open source the
product. This is what the people behind Blender (a superb 3D modelling
tool) did and now the product is thriving again. See
http://www.blender.org/blenderorg/blender-foundation/history/ for more
background information.
In any case I wish you all the best,
Robin Barendregt
Bill Schwab
> towards the idea of open sourcing, but have you considered an in-
> between solution, such as doing a fund raising to open source the
> product. This is what the people behind Blender (a superb 3D modelling
> tool) did and now the product is thriving again. See
> http://www.blender.org/blenderorg/blender-foundation/history/ for more
> background information.
I was not going to say anything just yet, but the idea occured to me
too, and I know a lawyer who is a genuinely a good guy[*]. Without
giving details, I have left a message asking what would be involved to
collect money from the likes of us, arranging for a trigger if it hits
the (no doubt substantial) amount required. Clearly any such framework
has to cope with falling short, collecting too much, hassles returning
funds, taxes, etc.
Here's hoping everyone involved will at least consider it.
Bill
[*] Seriously :)
davorin....@gmail.com
> I was not going to say anything just yet, but the idea occured to me
> too, and I know a lawyer who is a genuinely a good guy[*]. Without
> giving details, I have left a message asking what would be involved to
> collect money from the likes of us, arranging for a trigger if it hits
> the (no doubt substantial) amount required. Clearly any such framework
> has to cope with falling short, collecting too much, hassles returning
> funds, taxes, etc.
>
> Here's hoping everyone involved will at least consider it.
buying it out and open sourcing crossed my mind also.
keep us posted about what your lawyer says.
rush
Pax
Can't say that I'm surprised to hear this announcement... In fact, I
was wondering when the proverbial shoe would drop. Given the fact that
we haven't had any code release for D6 since last November or
development news...
Thats why I downloaded VisualWorks 4 months ago... Pray for the best,
prepare for the worst...
Shades of Digitalk all over again...
Life goes on as another Smalltalk Environment bytes the silicon dust...
Gavin Scott
To me, the whole user interface system falls into the category of "eye
candy", or at least "things that shouldn't make me want to throw up or
run screaming every time I try to use the system".
G.
SteveAW
I am sad to read this news. Dolphin is a beautiful environment to work
in, and makes my work a joy to do.
Thank you for creating it, and the energy that you both put in to
develop and support it.
Thank you for the offer of limited support for D6 into the future, and
the possible 6.1 release.
I wish you both the best for Alchemetrics and the work at MS research!
Above all else ... thank you for Dolphin!
Steve
--
swa...@ozemail.com.au
SteveAW
parts of Dolphin that are currently closed).
Steve
--
swa...@ozemail.com.au
SteveAW
KlausK
Windows versions.
For me Dolphin has no bugs and everything is fine!
No .Net, No Linux etc.
Just the investment of the last 4 Years are in danger...
Cheers,
Klaus
Janko Mivšek
That news struck me hard, because that is definitively not a good news
for a Smalltalk, not to mention for both of you, considering that
Dolphin is your child. And because we are tied to our children
emotionally (and not only financially) first , I urge you too to not
abandon your child.
Let me extend David proposal a bit:
- continue to sell Dolphin but without support,
- charge for support by hours or combination yearly/hours.
That way you'll be actual paid for work you'll do on maintaining Dolphin
for a few years and in that time you'll be able to find solution what to
do with it, be selling it or maybe even opens sourcing... Who knows, I
wouldn't just say no at that time, let the time and events show the way!
Best wishes
Janko
--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
KlausK
Cheers,
Klaus
Jochen Riekhof
should read
Of course I am willing to participate in payments for continued support
Udo Schneider
>> buying it out and open sourcing crossed my mind also.
I currently see no other option. Another Smalltalk wouldn't work for me.
So the option would be ObjC on the Mac (which also means DST is the
only real reason to still be with Windows).
CU,
Udo
Udo Schneider
thanks for sharing this with us.
> version of Dolphin X6 indefinitely but, as from today, we will not be
> selling the Professional version. Some limited support will remain in
Maybe you should reconsider to not distribute the Professional version.
I think you should allow users to still buy it - although clearly
stating that it's neither supported nor further developed.
> place for existing users of X6 but there will not be a future major
> release of Dolphin for .net (or Mac or Linux).
To be honest one the strong points of Dolphin was and is it's tight
Windows integration. So no surprise here for me.
> product. There are simply not enough people who are able to recognise
> that Smalltalk offers something much better than the tools and
> languages "du jour".
Sad but true. I sometimes wonder if people are simply not willing to
learn "advanced" concepts to simplify their life. But that doesn't
really help here.
> The shift of Microsoft away from the Win32 API to
> the .net platform (and the associated presentation foundation) has not
> helped and would mean a dedicated development effort of sufficient
> intensity that we just can't commit to it given the potential returns.
I'm quite sure that Microsoft will continue to support the Win32 API for
some time. However I think it's clear that all the new and "sexy" stuff
released and to be released is .NET only. So even if Dolphin does a very
good job now it might be impossible to keep up in the future. It kind of
reminds me of Digitalk Smalltalk. You could keep up with the Win3.1
based version some time on Win95. But the time was limited.
> our careers to that point. It seemed important that Dolphin Smalltalk
> should be carried forward and that other developers be given the chance
> to "see the light". These sentiments remain with us today but the cold
> reality is that we have to look for other sources of income for our
> families and the future.
Thanks for sharing the light with us. I can only repeat that you created
the best Smalltalk available. You have every reason to be very proud of
it. However as you said some people do not see the light.
> As an example as to why this has become a necessary decision, I'd like
> to open up the sales figures for Dolphin Professional this last year.
> So far in 2007 we have received 29 orders and in the last 12 months, at
> total of 50 orders. We probably have an active user database of around
> 500 users but simple maths shows that this is plainly insufficient to
> support any business plan let alone one that needs to dedicate
> substantial additional effort for future development.
This is frightening but not surprising. It also gives me some kind of
good feeling because the perception always is and was that Dolphin has
one of the most active and helpful user base. Given the low number this
only allows the conclusion that each and every user did an excellent job.
> The latter should mean that Dolphin will not die quickly because we
> have a wealth of software that relies on it to continuing operating
> smoothly. The nature of Smalltalk with the fact that most of the source
> is "open" means that existing users should be able to continue using
> the Dolphin products and not have to port away to other platforms (and
That's the point that keeps the hope in me. IMHO the VM is rockstable
and doesn't need new features if we stick to the Win32 API. So it's
"our" job now to keep the image up-to-date. As you said - all the
Smalltalk code is available. So we can build/change on top of it. One
idea that crossed my mind was to be able to create new "fresh" images.
Let's assume "the community" has build a new version. I don't think it
proper to simply distribute this image as this includes the serial of
the original owner. So there must be a way to create a new "fresh" image
which then again needs to be unlocked using a product key. Do you
think it's possible to release the toolchain to create such images or
would this be a problem due to the fact that (IMHO) the key checking
code is in there somewhere?
This all wouldn't be needed if the Professional version was free as
well. However as I wrote above I'd say keep selling it. In addition I
think the Professional version does contain some licensed code (e.g.
STS, OmniBase, Refactory engine) which is not allowed to be simply given
away for free.
> hopefully never to C# or Java). We will try to issue the 6.1
> maintenance release that we have been using internally (wrapping all
> outstanding bug fixes) before the end of this year.
Anything we can help with for 6.1?
> commercial value in one fell swoop. But this is a discussion for
> another thread. The best, and probably only, way in which the future
> of Dolphin could be assured would be a sale of the assets to another
> company. Whilst we are not actively seeking buyers, serious
> negotiations can be started by writing to me at my e-mail address.
What about selling the IP to a "foundation" which then open sources it -
like Blender i.e.. Even if this doesn't happen most of the source is
open - except for the VM. And I see no reason for us to not be able to
extend the image. VM Code is not needed for that. Once the VM doesn't
run a future version of Windows I'm quite sure the Image and it's Win32
concepts are then "old" as well.
> but you know who you are and I thank you again. Doubtless, many of you
> will be disappointed by this decision but I hope that you understand
> now why this has to be.
Sad yes - disappointed no. I think everyone has to understand that
"seeing the light" doesn't necessarily pay the rent.
> PS: we came to this decision several weeks ago. For those of you who
> have recently purchased Dolphin Professional and are now unhappy with
> the decision, we will honour requests for a refund for any purchases
> made within the last 60 days. AB.
IMHO even now everybody giving back his Professional license simply
doesn't see the light :-)
CU and best wishes,
Udo
David Gorisek
> well. However as I wrote above I'd say keep selling it. In addition I
> think the Professional version does contain some licensed code (e.g.
> STS, OmniBase, Refactory engine) which is not allowed to be simply given
> away for free.
>
As far as I am concerned the STS and OmniBase can be given away for free
together with the Community version.
This could even come very handy if we develop a common Dolphin Smalltalk
code repository (something like public Store for VW) because then users
that use the Community version could also exchange code by using STS
projects.
Best regards,
David
Jochen Riekhof
> code repository (something like public Store for VW) because then users
> that use the Community version could also exchange code by using STS
> projects.
a central public place holding versioned free packages would be really
great!
Ciao
...Jochen
davorin....@gmail.com
wrote:
> As far as I am concerned the STS and OmniBase can be given away for free
> together with the Community version.
>
> This could even come very handy if we develop a common Dolphin Smalltalk
> code repository (something like public Store for VW) because then users
> that use the Community version could also exchange code by using STS
> projects.
David,
that is great news, and thank you!
Common Dolphin Repository makes now even more sense when we are on our
own so to speak.
rush
pos...@doramail.com
> As far as I am concerned the STS and OmniBase can be given away for free
> together with the Community version.
>
Good on you, David! That's very generous of you. This gesture alone
may give new life to Dolphin.
> This could even come very handy if we develop a common Dolphin Smalltalk
> code repository (something like public Store for VW) because then users
> that use the Community version could also exchange code by using STS
> projects.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David
As it turns out, I very much like STS, preferring it to Store. I find
it simple, elegant, and flexible---just like Smalltalk. It would be an
excellent choice for a public repository. In fact, I'm hoping that
STS can be ported to other platforms so that it can be used by other
Smalltalks.
Thank you, David.
Max
Udo Schneider
> As far as I am concerned the STS and OmniBase can be given away for free
> together with the Community version.
That's great news! I personally couldn't live w/o STS anymore. And I'm
quite sure others have similar feelings. Once you have tasted a good SCm
which does it the Smalltalk way there is no way back :-)
> This could even come very handy if we develop a common Dolphin Smalltalk
> code repository (something like public Store for VW) because then users
> that use the Community version could also exchange code by using STS
> projects.
That was my original intention for Dolphin Map. However I'm wondering
how one could "netify" STS. In my experience hosting a STS repositry on
a internet server is kind of slow. Maybe this was just a personal
experience. However I could setup an internet server with an SMB share
and user accounts in no time at all. So if we need this just drop me a
message.
CU,
Udo
davorin....@gmail.com
wrote:
>
> That was my original intention for Dolphin Map. However I'm wondering
> how one could "netify" STS. In my experience hosting a STS repositry on
> a internet server is kind of slow. Maybe this was just a personal
> experience. However I could setup an internet server with an SMB share
> and user accounts in no time at all. So if we need this just drop me a
> message.
Udo, please take a peek on the Shared repository thread. My basic idea
is to hookup some Smalltalk web server to perform import-export from
the shared repository. that way people would just form time to time
fetch the latest version or upload the new, and in the mean time they
would be using their local repository.
rush
Udo Schneider
> Udo, please take a peek on the Shared repository thread. My basic idea
> is to hookup some Smalltalk web server to perform import-export from
> the shared repository. that way people would just form time to time
> fetch the latest version or upload the new, and in the mean time they
> would be using their local repository.
Just saw the other thread. I'll post there.
CU,
Udo
keith
> never want to look back and dread every waking day spent coding C++.
> Thanks, guys (I think)! :-)
>
> Jeff M.
Agreed!
While I am saddened by this (understandable) decision, let it been
known that Dolphin, OA, and the great expertise coming from this
newsgroup made me the Smalltalker I am today! Before Dolphin, I spent
years looking at Smalltalk, talking about it, and even reading a
couple of books -- but I never really "got it" until I started using
Dolphin. Funny thing was during that time I purchased D3 and D4 "just
in case" ... when I actually started using Smalltalk with D5 like Jeff
M, I never wanted to go back!
Thanks for a great product over the years.
Keith
PS: I also support any "Blender-Style" open-investment-source model,
if the community can get a sufficient groundswell. My other primary
development environment (CASL - for PalmOS and PocketPC) recently went
through a similar situation as Dolphin last year; it's now a Shareware
product. While not a commercial blockbuster, going the shareware route
breathed new life into the product...
Ted
I'd like to share my mixed feelings re your decision like many of us
here. My first download was version 0.9 (I'm sure I still have it
somewhere) and I started using Dolphin properly at the then free
version 1.1 when version 2 came commercially available. You and the
early group here encouraged me to become a lifetime Smalltalker and
even a published author. For my work I have to keep up to date with
the latest flavour of the month so I see them all, but whenever I need
to do some development myself I will always grab back to the best
Windows development environment around which to me is Dolphin.
>From commercial point of view I fully understand your decision but I'd
like you to know that it does sadden me.
I wish you both all the best for the future and hope to see you
continuing to play an active role in this community.
Regards
Ted
PS Blair I feel particularly sorry for you, at least Andy can continue
to develop in Dolphin ;)
Tim M
Like the others, I am sad to hear this news - your determination to make
a better development environment for Windows using Smalltalk (and breaking
a lot of Smalltalk pre-conceptions) I think culminated in something wonderful
in D6. (It's slick, sexy and easy to use - its the Smalltalk environment
that even non smalltalkers can love - and the one I'm not embarrassed to
show other developers)
I am very disappointed that "the best one yet" - didn't actually turn into
something financially viable, I think you deserved that. However I hope we
can extend new life into what's there - and appreciate your support for what's
remaining. I also secretly hope that a huge groundswell in support might
help find a different way to keep the product active.
I second the suggestions to continue selling D6-pro with a caveat that its
not a fully supported product (even if its just to allow teams to add extra
developer seats).
I am also selfishly sad that my presentation at ESUG - showing off an application
developed in D6 with the tag that "it doesn't look like it was developed
in Smalltalk" will also be an epitaph.
Tim
Aaron Wieland
Smalltalk in many ways. Dolphin is truly beautiful in a way unlike any
other software product -- let alone any other Smalltalk -- I've
encountered. At the same time, I'm amazed that Andy and Blair stuck it
out as long as they did, trying to make a living from a very niche,
low-cost product. Their dedication to Dolphin proves the strength of
their passion to promote a better way.
I'm intrigued by the idea of accepting donations to open source Dolphin.
If there are only 500 active users, however, do we have the resources
to do so? That said, I would definitely make a contribution.
Before the fateful announcement, I had hoped that Dolphin would somehow
make the jump from win32 to .NET, perhaps by running on the DLR.
Ideally, this would result in the best of both worlds: tight integration
with the latest Windows frameworks and the ability to run on multiple
platforms. If Dolphin is rescued, perhaps Peter Fisk could help by
applying his experience with VistaSmalltalk.
-- Aaron
davorin....@gmail.com
wrote:
> I'm intrigued by the idea of accepting donations to open source Dolphin.
> If there are only 500 active users, however, do we have the resources
> to do so? That said, I would definitely make a contribution.
It depends on number of factors, and would also probably require some
enthusiasm, good will, and realistic approach, but I think it is
definitely worth a try.
rush
John Keenan
> but, as from today, we will not be selling the Professional version.
Why? As long as its status is clear to the buyer why stop selling it?
John
Bill Schwab
Taxes perhaps? Otherwise, I know what you mean, and I have asked the
same question, rhetorically until now. If nothing else, there should be
a "last chance" sale, right?
If regulation is the problem, perhaps Andy could turn from selling
Dolphin to treating it as a consulting/support event via his new
business. I am not suggesting he do anything illegal, but there might
be legitimate ways to get something for his trouble, and still meet the
needs of the existing customers w/o operating an unwanted business.
Have a good one,
Bill
--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
bi...@anest4.anest.ufl.edu
Esteban A. Maringolo
Andy Bower escribió:
> It is with great regret and more than a touch of sadness that I have to
> announce that Blair and I have made the decision to stop selling and
> developing Dolphin Smalltalk.
I understand the last, but I don't understand why stop selling it.
> We will continue to distribute the free
> version of Dolphin X6 indefinitely but, as from today, we will not be
> selling the Professional version.
What For?
To show to the world that a great Smalltalk exists, nice, consistent,
eye-candy, simple to use, which you can't upgrade.
Then the people will try to upgrade to VW or Squeak to found them
deceptive, clumsy or hard to understand, and then desist of using
Smalltalk at all.
> Some limited support will remain in
> place for existing users of X6 but there will not be a future major
> release of Dolphin for .net (or Mac or Linux).
This is understandable considering OA no longer exists, with Blair
working at MS, and you empowering Alchemetrics most of your time.
> The shift of Microsoft away from the Win32 API to
> the .net platform (and the associated presentation foundation) has not
> helped and would mean a dedicated development effort of sufficient
> intensity that we just can't commit to it given the potential returns.
The shift has started years ago, but with DolphinX6 being compatible
with Vista, there still remains years of compatibility ahead.
> At this point, I cannot sign off without commenting on the enthusiasm
> and talent in the Dolphin community that has sustained us all these
> years.
I think we are grateful for your dedication and work on Dolphin Smalltalk.
But I can't disguise my annoyance, I don't feel melancholic like many
others, I think your decision was hasty because for the heck of it you
could had requested help from the community before doing an abrupt
shutdown. Because the talent and enthusiasm is still here, and you can
see it in the responses to your announcement. In my "not so" humble
opinion this affects the entire smalltalk community.
I'm sad OA is not profitable (and never was), I wish you were
millionaires, because thanks to Dolphin I became a better programmer and
a Dolphin evangelist, and enjoyed a lot using your creation which I
still consider a masterpiece.
But I hope you review your decision, and come with an alternative which
is good for you, but also for the community.
If not, we should place our expectations on James Bower, who proved to
be a great developer with Dalektron :-D, and has a great smalltalk lineage.
Best regards,
Esteban.
Dave
> It is with great regret and more than a touch of sadness that I have
> to announce that Blair and I have made the decision to stop selling
> and developing Dolphin Smalltalk.
This a very sad day indeed.
> We will continue to distribute the
> free version of Dolphin X6 indefinitely but, as from today, we will
> not be selling the Professional version. Some limited support will
> remain in place for existing users of X6 but there will not be a
> future major release of Dolphin for .net (or Mac or Linux).
I was a beta tester of Dolphin and upgraded to every version except 6. I
hadn't upgraded due to financial and time constraint reasons. I was finally
going to upgrade my license last week, but put it off due to other pressing
business. There is time to upgrade now, but I can't. If I could I would as
it is the best development environment I've ever used and would continue
using it for my personal/semi commercial projects.
As a consultant a client has some major new development on the horizon and I
was pushing hard for Smalltalk. The other programmer, a non-smalltalker, had
come around to be an enthusiastic supporter. If management went along, I
was going to upgrade my license and we would have been purchasing at least
one additional license. The company I am working with had over ten
programmers on staff in the past and hopefully there may be at least that
many in the future. I guess we won't be working in Dolphin now.
> We have come to this point for a number of reasons, the most potent of
> which is the fact that it is just not commercially viable (and to be
> truthful it has never really been so) to continue development of the
> product. There are simply not enough people who are able to recognise
> that Smalltalk offers something much better than the tools and
> languages "du jour".
It doesn't help that the vendors keep going away. I had this happen with
another client that used Digitalk STV, and Win 32. Due to the stability (or
lack of it of the vendor) my client did not continue with Digitalk VS and
dropped development in Smalltalk entirely.
I had written a couple of semi-commercial programs I wrote in V32 that I've
been maintaining and had to change from time to time. I ported a lot of this
code to Dolphin 5 but never got around to finishing enough to release. I
was just starting to transition the code to Dolphin 6 (CE) with a major
redesign and rewrite and was looking foreword to upgrading my license. I'd
still like to finish these projects but since the professional edition is no
longer available I can't. This is making me really grumpy!
> chance to "see the light". These sentiments remain with us today but
> the cold reality is that we have to look for other sources of income
> for our families and the future.
Unfortunately I've "been there, done that". I understand completely. Living
on dedication is difficult, eventually becomes impossible and hard decisions
have to be made. I know from experience that yours was an extremely painful
decision and sympathize completely.
It took a monumental amount of effort and dedication to accomplish this
fantastic task. Amazing work guys!
Thanks for a great development environment. Whenever I wanted to point out
to a programmer an example of a great IDE and terrific code, I would simply
fire up Dolphin and choose a random class. It was fun seeing the amazed look
on the face of the subject of the exercise.
If it is at all possible, please consider making it possible to purchase new
licenses or upgrades for Dolphin 6.
Whatever happens in the future, best wishes to you and Blair in your future
endeavors.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Andy Bower
> Dolphin Support
Regards and thanks
Dave Wachtel
Friedrich Dominicus
> It is with great regret and more than a touch of sadness that I have to
> announce that Blair and I have made the decision to stop selling and
> developing Dolphin Smalltalk. We will continue to distribute the free
> version of Dolphin X6 indefinitely but, as from today, we will not be
> selling the Professional version. Some limited support will remain in
> place for existing users of X6 but there will not be a future major
> release of Dolphin for .net (or Mac or Linux).
I guess I can fully understand that. And indeed we're in a similiar
situation. Our tools are much lower level however and I guess that has
"saved" us. You can neglect the selling as you can do yours, but the
base is much broader and indeed we do have download numbers above one
thousands a day, and this has helped to spread the knowledge about our
tools, and because of this we get orders to intergrate them in other
people tools. But it's very very unpleasant situation. It's not the
value of the tools itself but some layered things above them. Ah yes
the "merits" of OSS....
Wish you all the best
Friedrich
--
Please remove just-for-news- to reply via e-mail.
Christoph J. Bachinger
sorry to read this. But no bad message is only bad.
I will post seperatly
have a nice time
cjb
pico...@gmail.com
> > Under the circumstances, I think I can understand your reluctance
> > towards the idea of open sourcing, but have you considered an in-
> > between solution, such as doing a fund raising to open source the
> > product. This is what the people behind Blender (a superb 3D modelling
> > tool) did and now the product is thriving again. See
> >http://www.blender.org/blenderorg/blender-foundation/history/for more
> > background information.
>
> I was not going to say anything just yet, but the idea occured to me
> too, and I know a lawyer who is a genuinely a good guy[*]. Without
> giving details, I have left a message asking what would be involved to
> collect money from the likes of us, arranging for a trigger if it hits
> the (no doubt substantial) amount required. Clearly any such framework
> has to cope with falling short, collecting too much, hassles returning
> funds, taxes, etc.
>
> Here's hoping everyone involved will at least consider it.
>
> Bill
>
> [*] Seriously :)
Well I'm willing to give $500 okay $400 for the chance to get my hands
on all the source code for Dolphin. And to help port it to .net . If
the buyout fails then I will buy the professional version. If I can
pry the money loose. Somehow the open source idea goes down easier
with the money person than buying the professional version. But the
idea that the whole thing may be going away also helps me pry harder.
I guess I don't really need the pro version. I am making the picoLARC
Lisp compiler on sourceforge.net in Dolphin community. The idea is
that the source code should be available. So what I really need is
that the community edition should always be available. I don't want
any part of picoLARC to be hidden. That's the whole point. That you
can run the testcases in the debugger and see how it all works from
simple function calls to embedded letRecursive definitions with tail
call optimization.
So people can download the Dolphin community edition and then the
picoLARC packages from sourceforge.net . Is what I really need. So I
am glad that you are going to keep on providing the community edition
indefinitely.
So I guess I will not be buying the professional edition. It defeats
the purpose. The purpose is that the core source code should always
be there. And you can't do that in a .exe version. And picoLARC
running under Dolphin will not be fast enough or big enough or
documented enough to stand on its own as a no source product.
But I will still be willing to pay $500 okay $400 to get my hands on
all the Dolphin source code. Well I will try really hard to do it.
Because that would fullfill the purpose of having all the source code
always be there.
So I think that you should think of it this way: How much money would
you be willing to pay to get all the source code for Dolphin? Would it
be $500? If enough of us band together. Let's see if 500 of us are
willing to pay $500 we can each have all the source code for Dolphin.
Are you willing to pay $500 for all the source code for Dolphin?
Well I am.
500.
That's a lot. Maybe if they were each one e-mailed that they might be
able to get all the source code for $500. First they have to complete
the survey and then. maybe.
Oh well, please continue to make the community version available.
That really is so thoughtful of you.
Howard Oh
> So what I really need is that the community edition should always be available.
Same here. Don't worry about it. I keep the installer file and license
key in my disk. Many other people will too.
Tons of more dialects coming up!
History repeats itself.
Have a good one