Whenever the question of performance comes up with scripting languages such as Ruby, Perl or Python there will be people whose response can be summarised as "Write it in C". I am one such person. Some people take offence at this and label us trolls or heretics of the true programming language (take your pick).
I am assuming here that when people talk about performance they really mean speed. Some will disagree but this is what I am talking about.
In this post I want to clear some things up and provide benchmarks as to why you should take "Write it in C" seriously. Personally I like to write my projects in Ruby or Perl or Python and then convert them to C to get a performance boost. How much of a boost? Well here I will give you some hard data and source code so that you can see just how much of a boost C can give you.
The mini project in question is to generate all the valid Latin squares. A Latin square is a grid of numbers (lets say a 9 x 9 grid) that has the numbers 1 to 9 appear only once in each row and column. Sudoku grids are a subset of Latin squares.
The approach taken is to create a list of all the permutations and then build up a grid row by row checking that the newly added row does not conflict with any of the previous rows. If the final row can be added without problem the solution is printed and the search for the next one starts. It is in essence depth first search. The first version of the program that I wrote in Perl took 473 minutes to generate all the valid 5 x 5 Latin squares, version four of the program took 12 minutes and 51 seconds. The C version of the program took 5.5 seconds to produce identical results. All run on the same hardware.
[Latin]$ time ./Latin1.pl 5 > x5
real 473m45.370s user 248m59.752s sys 2m54.598s
[Latin]$ time ./Latin4.pl 5 > x5
real 12m51.178s user 12m14.066s sys 0m7.101s
[Latin]$ time ./c_version.sh 5
real 0m5.519s user 0m4.585s sys 0m0.691s
This is what I mean when I say that coding in C will improve the performance of your program. The improvement goes beyond percentages, it is in orders of magnitude. I think that the effort is worth it. If a 5 x 5 grid with 120 permutations took 12 minutes in Perl, how long would a 6 * 6 grid with 720 permutations take? What unit of measure would you be using for a 9 x 9 grid?
7 my $p = new Algorithm::Permute( [ 1 .. $width_of_board ] );
8 while ( my @res = $p->next ) { 9 push @permutations, [@res]; 10 } 11 my $number_of_permutations = scalar(@permutations);
12 for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $number_of_permutations ; $x++ ) { 13 add_a_line($x); 14 }
Lines 1 to 11 just build up a list of all the permutations using the handy Algorithm::Permute module from CPAN. Lines 12 to 14 starts on the first row of the solution by trying out all possible permutations for the first row.
15 sub add_a_line { 16 my @lines = @_;
17 my $size = scalar(@lines);
18 my $ok = 1; 19 for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $size ; $x++ ) { 20 for ( my $y = 0 ; $y < $size ; $y++ ) { 21 if ( $x != $y ) { 22 $ok = 0 unless compare( $lines[$x], $lines[$y] ); 23 } 24 } 25 }
The add_a_line() function first checks that none of the lines so far conflict (have the same digit in the same column), if it passes and the number of lines equals the size of the board then the result is printed and another solution is looked for. Failing that another line is added and add_a_line() is called.
Here is the function that tells if two lines conflict.
37 sub compare { 38 my ( $a, $b ) = @_;
39 my $ok = 1;
40 my @aa = @{ $permutations[$a] }; 41 my @bb = @{ $permutations[$b] };
42 for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $width_of_board ; $x++ ) { 43 $ok = 0 if $aa[$x] == $bb[$x]; 44 }
45 return $ok == 1; 46 }
The p() function is a little utility to convert a list into a string for display.
47 sub p { 48 my ($x) = @_;
49 my @a = @{ $permutations[$x] }; 50 my $y = join( '', @a );
51 return $y; 52 }
Well I have just exposed some pretty crap code to eternal ridicule on the internet, but there you have it. The code is crap, even non Perl programmers will be able to point out the deficenties with this code. It works, even though a 5 x 5 grid took 473 minutes to run. Lets try and salvage some pride and show version four and see how we managed to speed things up.
1 #!/usr/bin/perl -w
2 use strict; 3 use warnings;
4 use Algorithm::Permute;
5 my $width_of_board = shift;
6 my @permutations; 7 my @output; 8 my %compared;
9 my $p = new Algorithm::Permute( [ 1 .. $width_of_board ] );
10 while ( my @res = $p->next ) { 11 push @permutations, [@res]; 12 push @output, join( '', @res ); 13 } 14 my $number_of_permutations = scalar(@permutations);
Lines 1 to 14 are doing pretty much what version one was doing except that a new list, @output, is being built up to precalculate the output strings and remove the need for the p() function. A minor speed up but useful.
15 for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $number_of_permutations ; $x++ ) { 16 for ( my $y = 0 ; $y < $number_of_permutations ; $y++ ) { 17 my $ok = 1;
18 my @aa = @{ $permutations[$x] }; 19 my @bb = @{ $permutations[$y] };
Lines 15 to 30 introduces new code to precalculate the comparisons and feed the results into a hash. Lines 31 to 33 start the work in the same way as version one.
31 for ( my $x = 0 ; $x < $number_of_permutations ; $x++ ) { 32 add_a_line($x); 33 }
And now to the improved add_a_line() function. The code has been improved to only check that the newly added line does not conflict with any of the existsing lines rather than repeatedly comparing the existing (valid) lines.
These changes took us down from 473 minutes to just 12. The elimination of unnessessary comparisons in add_a_line() helped as did the precalculation of those comparisons. There are lessons to be learnt here, write decent code and cache repetetive comparisons. There are no great tricks, just that bad code can cost you dearly and simple things can bring big improvements. So with such a massive improvement how could we make our code any faster?
Write it in C.
Having learnt the lessons developing the code in Perl I am not going to start the whole thing over in C. Using version four I used the precalculation phase of the Perl scripts to write out a C header file with data structures that would be useful for the C program.
245 {false, false, ... 246 }; 247 int work[WIDTH_OF_BOARD];
This then leaves the C code itself. Lines 1 to 7 includes a load of useful stuff, infact it is also probably including some quite unneccessary stuff too, I just cut and paste it from another project.
Line 8 is the header file that Perl precalculated.
8 #include "Latin.h"
Now the meat. The code is pretty much the same as version four just adapted to C. No special C tricks, no weird pointer stuff, an almost line for line translation of the Perl code.
Peter Hickman gave a very good article about prototyping in a scripting language, and then re-coding in c:
*snip*
> If you really really want that performance boost then take the following > advice very seriously - "Write it in C".
I totally agree that with the current state of the art, this is the right approach.
Maybe it doesn't need saying, but I'm going to... in the vasy majority of applications, almost all of their run time is a tiny wee small fraction of the code. This is the part that I would write in c (or c++). The vast majority of the code (and it's not there just for fun, it's still completely important to the application) will use a vanishingly small fraction of processor time. This is the bit that I would probably leave in Ruby.
People talk about the 80:20 principle, but in my experience it's much more like 99:1 for applications. 99% of the code uses 1% of the run time. 1% of the code consumes 99% of the run time. That could be the signal processing and graphics heavy applications that I have experienced though.
Thanks for the comparison, it was great. And thanks for the very nice pre-generation of look up tables in perl idea. Nice.
benj...@fysh.org wrote: > Peter Hickman gave a very good article about prototyping in a scripting > language, and then re-coding in c:
> *snip*
> > If you really really want that performance boost then take the following > > advice very seriously - "Write it in C".
> I totally agree that with the current state of the art, this is the > right approach.
> Maybe it doesn't need saying, but I'm going to... in the vasy majority > of applications, almost all of their run time is a tiny wee small > fraction of the code. This is the part that I would write in c (or c++). > The vast majority of the code (and it's not there just for fun, it's > still completely important to the application) will use a vanishingly > small fraction of processor time. This is the bit that I would probably > leave in Ruby.
> People talk about the 80:20 principle, but in my experience it's much > more like 99:1 for applications. 99% of the code uses 1% of the run > time. 1% of the code consumes 99% of the run time. That could be the > signal processing and graphics heavy applications that I have > experienced though.
> Thanks for the comparison, it was great. And thanks for the very nice > pre-generation of look up tables in perl idea. Nice.
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:47:13 +0900, Peter Hickman wrote: > In this post I want to clear some things up and provide benchmarks as to > why you should take "Write it in C" seriously.
This is a great post, and should at least be posted to a blog somewhere so the masses who don't know about USENET can still find it on Google!
Robert Dober wrote: > "Hmmm, maybe you should know that this kind of performance is not > possible in Ruby or even slightly faster interpreted languages, and > that you > should consider writing part of it in C, it is not so difficult, have > a look > here or there"
> as opposed to those who write
> "Write it in C if you want speed"
Tact has never been one of my strong points. Your phrasing was much nicer I will agree. The things that has been bugging me with this whole performance thing is that I am sure that many people do not realise just how fast a program written in C can run. The people who seem to take offence at being told to write their code in C seem to have no significant experience in using C. What also seems to happen is that after saying that performance is their number 1 absolute top priority they start to back peddle saying how hard C code is to develop. Yes is it harder to work with than a scripting language, it is all the rope you need to hang yourself with but you can write some blindingly fast code if you are prepared to put in the effort. Wasn't that what they said was their number 1 absolute top priority?
On Jul 26, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Charles O Nutter wrote:
> - Write it in C is as valid as write it in Java (as someone else > mentioned). > Java is at least as fast as C for most algorithms.
I'm Java Certified and I've been hearing people say this for years, but I just haven't experienced this myself. You guys must develop on much faster boxes than my MacBook Pro. ;)
Charles O Nutter wrote: > I'll lob a couple of grenades and then duck for cover.
> - Write it in C is as valid as write it in Java (as someone else > mentioned). > Java is at least as fast as C for most algorithms.
As someone who is paid to program in Java I very seriously doubt this. However I will write a Java version of the code and time it. It should be interesting to say the least.
> All this said, there's truth to the idea that we shouldn't *have* to > write > platform-level code to get reasonable performance, and every effort > should > be made to improve the speed of Ruby code as near as possible to that > of the > underlying platform code.
We are talking about two different things here. I was talking about performance as being the number 1 absolute top priority, you are talking about 'reasonable performance'. As far as I am concerned for those scripts that I don't convert to C Perl, Ruby and Python are fast enough. Other people think that they are not, they seem to expect the sort of performance C gives when they write things in a scripting language. I think that they are barking.
> Whenever the question of performance comes up with scripting > languages > such as Ruby, Perl or Python there will be people whose > response can be > summarised as "Write it in C". I am one such person. Some people take > offence at this and label us trolls or heretics of the true > programming > language (take your pick).
The last (and only) time I called someone a troll for saying 'Write it C' it was in response to a rails related question. Further the OP asked for configuration items and such, but maybe that's a whole other storry. (and of course you can write C Extensions for rails... yeah, yadda, yadda :) )
> real 473m45.370s > user 248m59.752s > sys 2m54.598s
> [Latin]$ time ./Latin4.pl 5 > x5
> real 12m51.178s > user 12m14.066s > sys 0m7.101s
> [Latin]$ time ./c_version.sh 5
> real 0m5.519s > user 0m4.585s > sys 0m0.691s
Just to show the beauty of ruby: ----------------------------------------------------------- require 'rubygems' require 'permutation' require 'set'
$size = (ARGV.shift || 5).to_i
$perms = Permutation.new($size).map{|p| p.value} $out = $perms.map{|p| p.map{|v| v+1}.join} $filter = $perms.map do |p| s = SortedSet.new $perms.each_with_index do |o, i| o.each_with_index {|v, j| s.add(i) if p[j] == v} end && s.to_a end
$latins = [] def search lines, possibs return $latins << lines if lines.size == $size possibs.each do |p| search lines + [p], (possibs - $filter[p]).subtract(lines.last.to_i..p) end end
search [], SortedSet[*(0...$perms.size)]
$latins.each do |latin| $perms.each do |perm| perm.each{|p| puts $out[latin[p]]} puts end end ----------------------------------------------------------- (does someone has a nicer/even faster version?)
would you please run that on your machine? perhaps you have to do a "gem install permutation" (no I don't think it's faster than your C code, but it should beat the perl version)
> If you really really want that performance boost then take > the following > advice very seriously - "Write it in C".
Agreed, 100%, for those who want speed, speed and nothing else there is hardly a better way.
> We are talking about two different things here. I was talking about
> performance as being the number 1 absolute top priority, you are talking > about 'reasonable performance'. As far as I am concerned for those > scripts that I don't convert to C Perl, Ruby and Python are fast enough. > Other people think that they are not, they seem to expect the sort of > performance C gives when they write things in a scripting language. I > think that they are barking.
I quite agree with this. To Nutter's point, one can make one's own choice between C and Java once the decision has been made to write platform-level code. But most code, perhaps nearly all code, should stay in dyntyped script, in order to optimize the development/runtime cost-balance. I think you can get tremendous benefits from factoring code cleverly enough to keep the native-code components as small as possible. And this is often a nontrivial exercise because it depends on a good understanding of where performance costs come from in any particular program.
To the point about Java: as I mentioned upthread, working-set size is often the key limiting factor in Ruby performance. On a large and busy server (which is my target environment most of the time), Java can be a very inappropriate choice for the same reason!
> Well la-dee-dah! Seriously though, there's a volume of tests and > benchmarks > (for what they're worth) that show this to be true, and for > memory-intensive > situations Java almost always wins because lazy memory management allows > work to get done first, faster. Granted, Java's abstractions make it > easier > to write bad code...but that's true of every language, including C.
> - Charles Oliver Nutter, CERTIFIED Java Developer
I dont doubt for simple applications and algorithms java is nearly as fast as C if not equivalent. Though for larger java projects such as Eclipse, i've had a horrible time of it being slow and cumbersome on the system, and Visual Studio will run fine and be far more responsive. I dont really know why that is it could be as simple as some bad code in the java gui layer that Eclipse is using.
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:47:13 +0900, Peter Hickman wrote:
> > In this post I want to clear some things up and provide benchmarks as to > > why you should take "Write it in C" seriously.
> This is a great post, and should at least be posted to a blog somewhere so > the masses who don't know about USENET can still find it on Google!
well, I didn't post the original post (though I did link to it). I did post my take on it. At it's core: write it in Ruby and if it's too slow, profile it and rewrite the slow parts (in C if need be). Rewriting the whole app in C when Ruby makes cohabitating with C (or C++ or Objective C) so easy just seems pointless.
On 7/26/06, Charles O Nutter <head...@headius.com> wrote:
> there's nothing about a > language's design that should necessitate it being slower than any other > language.
While I accept that you shouldn't confuse a language with its implementation, I find that a mildly surprising statement, especially since you said in an earlier post:
> for memory-intensive situations Java almost always wins because lazy memory > management allows work to get done first, faster
Garbage collection seems to me to be an integral part of Java's design.
Off the top of my head, I can think of some other design aspects that have an effect on performance: method lookup in OO languages, scoping, continuations, closures, static vs dynamic typing, type inference, double dispatch, consing + car + cdr in Lisp, direct vs indirect threading in Forth, etc. These are not just matters of implementation. Each is a language design decision with a semantic effect which incurs or avoids a computational cost, regardless of how it's actually implemented. For example, Ruby has real closures, Python doesn't. I don't see how you could ever reduce the cost of Ruby having closures to zero - the memory alone is an implied overhead. Sure you can optimize till the cows come home but different functionalities have different costs and you can't ever avoid that.
On 7/26/06, benj...@fysh.org <benj...@fysh.org> wrote:
> ...
> People talk about the 80:20 principle, but in my experience it's much > more like 99:1 for applications. 99% of the code uses 1% of the run > time. 1% of the code consumes 99% of the run time. That could be the > signal processing and graphics heavy applications that I have > experienced though. > ...
This is the "value proposition" of the "Hot Spot" technology in the Java Virtual Machine. On the fly, it looks for byte code sections that get executed repeatedly and it then compiles them to object code, thereby doing runtime optimization. This allows many Java server processes to run with near-native speeds. When Ruby runs on a virtual machine, planned for version 2, then Ruby can do that too. The JRuby project will effectively accomplish the same goal.
On 7/26/06, Sean O'Halpin <sean.ohal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Off the top of my head, I can think of some other design aspects that > have an effect on performance: method lookup in OO languages, scoping, > continuations, closures, static vs dynamic typing, type inference, > double dispatch, consing + car + cdr in Lisp, direct vs indirect > threading in Forth, etc. These are not just matters of implementation. > Each is a language design decision with a semantic effect which incurs > or avoids a computational cost, regardless of how it's actually > implemented. For example, Ruby has real closures, Python doesn't. I > don't see how you could ever reduce the cost of Ruby having closures > to zero - the memory alone is an implied overhead. Sure you can > optimize till the cows come home but different functionalities have > different costs and you can't ever avoid that.
In theory if two programs in two different languages produce the same exact results the perfect compilers for each of the languages would end up producing the same code. In theory practice is the same as theory but in practice it isn't.
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:47:13 +0900, Peter Hickman wrote: > Whenever the question of performance comes up with scripting languages > such as Ruby, Perl or Python there will be people whose response can be > summarised as "Write it in C". I am one such person. Some people take > offence at this and label us trolls or heretics of the true programming > language (take your pick).
> <snip>
Hi,
When reading your C code, I saw that there is a lot of code that is generated. I'd be interested to see how well the C program does if it can work for any size of the squares. In this case I think the problem is well suited for logic languages. I wrote a version in the functional logic language Curry, which does reasonably well. It will probably not be faster than the C version, but a lot faster than a program written in Ruby/Perl/Python.
>If you really really want that performance boost then take the following > advice very seriously - "Write it in C".
It can be a good idea to rewrite parts in C, but I would first check if the algorithms are good, so that it may not even be needed to write any C code. And perhaps there are libraries or tools that do the trick efficiently. I would keep writing C code as the last option.
Regards, Kristof
-------------------- start of latin.curry ---------------------------- -- upto is a nondeterministic function that evaluates to -- a number from 1 upto n upto 1 = 1 upto n | n > 1 = n ? upto (n-1)
-- check if the lists r s have no element with the same value at the -- same position elems_diff r s = and $ zipWith (/=) r s
-- extend takes a list of columns, and extends each column with a -- number for the next row. It checks the number agains the column and -- against the previous numbers in the row.
extend :: [[Int]] -> Int -> [[Int]] extend cols n = addnum cols [] where addnum [] _ = [] addnum (col:cs) prev | x =:= upto n & (x `elem` prev) =:= False & (x `elem` col) =:= False = (x:col) : addnum cs (x:prev) where x free
latin_square n = latin_square_ n where latin_square_ 0 = replicate n [] -- initalize columns to nil latin_square_ m | m > 0 = extend (latin_square_ (m-1)) n
square2str s = unlines $ map format_col s where format_col col = unwords $ map show col
main = mapIO_ (putStrLn . square2str) (findall (\s -> s =:= latin_square 5)) ------------------------- end latin.curry -----------------------------
> > On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:47:13 +0900, Peter Hickman wrote: > > > In this post I want to clear some things up and provide benchmarks as to > > > why you should take "Write it in C" seriously.
Interesting series of messages! Got to save and read them through at leisure ...
Just adding my 2c:
[I worked on a fairly complex performance tuning job once, involving HP-UNIX boxes (multiple), Informix ESQL/C batch programs, IBM MQ series (now called Websphere MQ), UNIX IPC, and got a chance to do tuning at several different levels - SQL queries, MQ logs/partitions, the C code, algorithms in it, etc. Was very educational ... just sharing some insights gained from that, from reading on the subject, and from smaller hobby projects tuning my own code ...]
[Not implying that previous posters on this thread haven't done any of the below].
Performance tuning in general is *very* complicated. Guesses or assumptions like "this code tweak should make it run faster" often do not work. The only way is a (semi)scientific approach to measure/profile, study profile results, make hypotheses, change code accordingly, then re-measure to see if the change made a difference.
Tuning can be done at any of several different levels, ranging from:
- hardware (even here, not just throwing more boxes or faster boxes at the problem, but things like hardware architecture - obviously only if the skills are available and the problem is worth the effort)
- software architecture
- algorithms and data structures optimization
- plain code tuning (things like common subexpression elimination, e.g. using C syntax, changing:
for (i = 0; i < getLength(my_collection); i++) { /* do something with my_collection[i] */ }
to
collLength = getLength(my_collection); for (i = 0; i < collLength; i++) { /* do something with my_collection[i] */ }
/* which removes the repeated/redundant call to the function getLength() */
Jon Bentley's book "Writing Efficient Programs" is a very good book which discusses rules, examples and war stories of tuning at almost all of these levels, including really excellent advice on code-level tuning, which may sometimes be the easiest one to implement on existing code. Though the examples are in a pseudo-Pascal dialect (easily understandable for those knowing C), and though it may be out of print now, for those who have a real need for tuning advice, its worth trying to get a used copy on eBay, from a friend, whatever.
Its chock-full of code examples with the tuning results (verifiied by measurement, as stated above), when (and when not) to apply them, and the war stories are really interesting too ...
Googling for "performance tuning" and variants thereof will help ...
There's another book (for Java, mostly server-side programming) by a guy called Dov (something - forget his last name and the book title, if I remember it, will post here) that's *really* excellent too - he shows (again, with actual measurements) how some of the "expected" results were actually wrong/counter-intuitive. He worked with IBM on the web software for one of the recent Olympics.
HTH Vasudev --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Vasudev Ram Custom utility development in UNIX/C/sh/Java/Python/Ruby Software consulting and training http://www.dancingbison.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Peter Hickman wrote: > If you really really want that performance boost then take the following > advice very seriously - "Write it in C".
Assuming you have no choice but C/C++. That's why I like using the jvm or clr with languages like jruby, groovy, or boo. You don't have to use C, you can use java or C# or boo itself (since it is statically typed with type inference): http://boo.codehaus.org/ or C/C++ as well, although it is 100x easier to interface with a C lib from the clr than it is from jvm with jni.
Kristof Bastiaensen wrote: > On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:47:13 +0900, Peter Hickman wrote:
> > Whenever the question of performance comes up with scripting languages > > such as Ruby, Perl or Python there will be people whose response can be > > summarised as "Write it in C". I am one such person. Some people take > > offence at this and label us trolls or heretics of the true programming > > language (take your pick).
> > <snip>
> Hi,
> When reading your C code, I saw that there is a lot of code that is > generated. I'd be interested to see how well the C program does if > it can work for any size of the squares. In this case I think the problem > is well suited for logic languages. I wrote a version in the functional > logic language Curry, which does reasonably well. It will probably not be
Interesting ... I read somewhere that the OCaml language, while higher-level than C (and a functional one too), runs some programs at least, as fast or faster than C ... Not sure how true that is ...
On 7/26/06, Pedro Côrte-Real <pe...@pedrocr.net> wrote:
> In theory if two programs in two different languages produce the same > exact results the perfect compilers for each of the languages would > end up producing the same code. In theory practice is the same as > theory but in practice it isn't.
> Cheers,
> Pedro.
In theory, an infinite number of computer scientists hacking for an infinite amount of time on a keyboard will eventually almost surely produce a perfect compiler.