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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: TheFlyingDutchman <zzbba...@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:01:52 -0700
Local: Wed, Sep 19 2007 3:01 pm
Subject: Google and Python
Around 2000 I heard that Google was using Python to some extent. Now I
see that Guido Van Rossum works for them as well as Alex Martellis who has the title "Uber Technical Lead" which seems to imply some fairly heavy Python usage there. I was wondering what is done at Google with Python and which Python "environments/applications" (Zope, TurboGears, mod_python ...) are in use, and what is done with other languages, and which other languages are they using. You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: Larry Bates <larry.ba...@websafe.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 14:18:06 -0500
Local: Wed, Sep 19 2007 3:18 pm
Subject: Re: Google and Python
TheFlyingDutchman wrote: Have you tried Google "google python". Turns up a lot of links for me. > Around 2000 I heard that Google was using Python to some extent. Now I > see that Guido Van Rossum works for them as well as Alex Martellis who > has the title "Uber Technical Lead" which seems to imply some fairly > heavy Python usage there. I was wondering what is done at Google with > Python and which Python "environments/applications" (Zope, TurboGears, > mod_python ...) are in use, and what is done with other languages, and > which other languages are they using. -Larry You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: TheFlyingDutchman <zzbba...@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:44:54 -0700
Local: Wed, Sep 19 2007 3:44 pm
Subject: Re: Google and Python
> Have you tried Google "google python". Turns up a lot of links for me. I had done it on this newsgroup, but not google. I did find a pretty good link: http://panela.blog-city.com/python_at_google_greg_stein__sdforum.htm Which says: I am not clear on how you would use a language - whether C++, Java or You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: Erik Jones <e...@myemma.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:02:25 -0500
Local: Wed, Sep 19 2007 4:02 pm
Subject: Re: Google and Python
On Sep 19, 2007, at 2:44 PM, TheFlyingDutchman wrote:
No an http server and application server are two different things. An http server services requests of a web server those requests can be for static files or for services of a local application in which case the request if forwarded on to the application. An application services requests of an application. They are separate concepts, often chained, although they are sometimes implemented together. What they are saying here is that they have built a highly optimizing custom web server in C++ that services web requests for services of applications written in any of the three listed languages. So, yes, in this case it is what is often Apache in other installations. Erik Jones Software Developer | Emma® Emma helps organizations everywhere communicate & market in style. You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: TheFlyingDutchman <zzbba...@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 14:01:18 -0700
Local: Wed, Sep 19 2007 5:01 pm
Subject: Re: Google and Python
On Sep 19, 1:02 pm, Erik Jones <e...@myemma.com> wrote:
> is usually Apache at most sites? OK, thanks. Would you know what technique the custom web server uses > No an http server and application server are two different things. to invoke a C++ app (ditto for Java and Python) CGI is supposed to be too slow for large sites. You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: Erik Jones <e...@myemma.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:43:52 -0500
Local: Wed, Sep 19 2007 5:43 pm
Subject: Re: Google and Python
On Sep 19, 2007, at 4:01 PM, TheFlyingDutchman wrote:
That's what SWIG is for: interfacing C++ with other languages. Erik Jones Software Developer | Emma® Emma helps organizations everywhere communicate & market in style. You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: Bryan Olson <fakeaddr...@nowhere.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:13:58 -0700
Local: Thurs, Sep 20 2007 4:13 am
Subject: Re: Google and Python
TheFlyingDutchman asked of someone:
> Would you know what technique the custom web server uses No, I expect he would not know that. I can tell you > to invoke a C++ app that GWS is just for Google, and anyone else is almost certainly better off with Apache. > (ditto for Java and Python) CGI is supposed to be too slow Sort of. The more queries a site answers, the more benefit > for large sites. to reducing the per-request overhead. But if one thinks Google could not afford so much machine time: On average, a single query on Google reads hundreds of Another quote from that paper: We also produce all our software in-house [...] There's a saying in the Navy that there are three ways to How does Google use Python? As their scripting-language Maybe Alex will disagree with me. In my short time at -- You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: al...@mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:00:08 -0700
Local: Fri, Sep 21 2007 2:00 am
Subject: Re: Google and Python
...
> TheFlyingDutchman asked of someone: Or lighttpd, like YouTube (cfr > > Would you know what technique the custom web server uses > > to invoke a C++ app > No, I expect he would not know that. I can tell you <http://trac.lighttpd.net/trac/wiki/PoweredByLighttpd>). > How does Google use Python? As their scripting-language YouTube (one of Google's most valuable properties) is essentially > of choice. A fine choice, but just a tiny little piece. > Maybe Alex will disagree with me. In my short time at all-Python (except for open-source infrastructure components such as lighttpd). Also, at Google I'm specifically "Uber Tech Lead, Production Systems": while I can't discuss details, my main responsibilities relate to various software projects that are part of our "deep infrastructure", and our general philosophy there is "Python where we can, C++ where we must". Python is definitely not "just a tiny little piece" nor (by a long shot) used only for "scripting" tasks; if the mutant space-eating nanovirus should instantly stop the execution of all Python code, the powerful infrastructure that has been often described as "Google's secret weapon" would seize up. The internal web applications needed to restore things, btw, would seize >) -- that's what we all use to review code, whatever language it's in, before it can be submitted to the Google codebase (code reviews are a mandatory step of development at Google). Internal web applications are the preferred way at Google to make any internal functionality available, of course. Alex You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: Bryan Olson <fakeaddr...@nowhere.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:28:09 -0700
Local: Mon, Sep 24 2007 3:28 am
Subject: Re: Google and Python
Good motto. So is most of Google's code base now in
Python? About what is the ratio of Python code to C++ code? Of course lines of code is kine of a bogus measure. Of all those cycles Google executes, about what portion are executed by a Python interpreter? > Python is definitely not "just a tiny little piece" nor (by a Ah, sorry. I meant the choice of scripting language was > long shot) used only for "scripting" tasks; a tiny little piece of Google's method of operation. "Scripting language" means languages such as Python, Perl, and Ruby. > if the mutant space-eating And the essence of the Google way is to employ a lot of > nanovirus should instantly stop the execution of all Python code, the > powerful infrastructure that has been often described as "Google's > secret weapon" would seize up. smart programmers to build their own software to run on Google's infrastructure. Choice of language is triva. I think both Python Google are great. What I find -- You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: al...@mac.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:40:04 -0700
Local: Mon, Sep 24 2007 11:40 am
Subject: Re: Google and Python
...
> > YouTube (one of Google's most valuable properties) is essentially I don't have those numbers at hand, and if I did they would be > > all-Python (except for open-source infrastructure components such as > > lighttpd). Also, at Google I'm specifically "Uber Tech Lead, Production > > Systems": while I can't discuss details, my main responsibilities relate > > to various software projects that are part of our "deep infrastructure", > > and our general philosophy there is "Python where we can, C++ where we > > must". > Good motto. So is most of Google's code base now in confidential: you know that Google doesn't release many numbers at all about its operations, most particularly not about our production infrastructure (not even, say, how many server we have, in how many data centers, with what bandwidth, and so on). Still, I wouldn't say that "most" of our codebase is in Python: there's > > Python is definitely not "just a tiny little piece" nor (by a In the same sense in which other such technology choices (C++, Java, > > long shot) used only for "scripting" tasks; > Ah, sorry. I meant the choice of scripting language was what operating systems, what relational databases, what http servers, and so on) are similarly "tiny pieces", maybe. Considering the number of technology choices that must be made, plus the number of other choices that aren't directly about technology but, say, about methodology (style guides for each language in use, mandatory code reviews before committing to the shared codebase, release-engineering practices, standards for unit-tests and other kinds of tests, and so on, and so forth), one could defensibly make a case that each and every such choice must of necessity be "but a tiny little piece" of the whole. > "Scripting language" means languages such as Python, A widespread terminology, but nevertheless a fundamentally bankrupt one: > Perl, and Ruby. when a language is used to develop an application, it's very misleading to call it a "scripting language", as it implies that it's instead used only to "script" something else. When it comes time to decide which mix of languages to use to develop a new application, it's important to avoid being biased by having tagged some languages as "scripting" ones, some (say Java) as "application" ones, others yet (say C++) as "system" ones -- the natural subconscious process would be to say "well I'm developing an X, I should use an X language, not a Y language or a Z language", which is most likely to lead to wrong choices. > > if the mutant space-eating No, it's far from trivial, any more than choice of operating system, and > > nanovirus should instantly stop the execution of all Python code, the > > powerful infrastructure that has been often described as "Google's > > secret weapon" would seize up. > And the essence of the Google way is to employ a lot of so on. Google is a technology company: exactly which technologies to use and/or develop for the various necessary tasks, far from being trivial, is the very HEART of its operation. Your ludicrous claim is similar to saying that the essence of a certain > I think both Python Google are great. What I find To each his own, I guess: what I find ludicrous is your claim about > ludicrous is the idea that the bits one hears about how > Google builds its software make a case for how others > should build theirs. "trivia", as I explained above. To me, on the contrary, it seems self-evident that if a company X enjoys great success employing technique Y, this *DOES* make something of a case for another company Z to seriously consider and probably try out Y, when attempting tasks analogous to those X has had success with, to see if some of the success could not be replicable in Z's own similar tasks. This is the heart of "benchmarking" and "industry best practices" -- and why many companies in the role of X aren't all that forthcoming about publicizing all the details of their Y's, just in case Z's endeavours should put Z in competition with X (this always needs to be balanced with the many _advantages_ connected to publicizing some of those Y's, of course). Such empirical support, while of course far from infallible (one will > Google is kind of secretive, and Nevertheless, if "Python has been an important part of Google since the > their ways are very much their own. Google's software > is much more Googley than Pythonic. beginning" (as my colleague Peter Norvig said well before I joined Google, then Guido did, etc etc), then clearly being Pythonic can be *an important part* (NOT "trivia"!!!) of being Googley, and it would be seriously stupid to choose to ignore this crucial data point. YouTube's choice of Python, done well before anybody had even conceived of their becoming part of Google one day, does seem to have served them particularly well too (and they gave lots of details in their talk on the subject at OSCON, some materials are at <http://www.scribd.com/doc/244443/Supersising-YouTube-with-Python> and you can search web and blogs for more), etc, etc. One delightful part of working at Google is that top management is *NOT* Alex You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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