Pyfora, a place for python
Saketh
I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
register and post any questions or tips you may have.
If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
effort!
Sincerely,
Saketh (username:catechu)
Paul Rubin
> I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
> online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
> and #python.
And the reason to want to further fragment Python discussion is
exactly what?
Ben Finney
> If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
> effort!
Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.
Rather, please direct seekers to the existing forums (the IRC channel,
the Usenet groups and mailing lists) rather than setting up new walled
gardens.
--
\ “None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love |
`\ not freedom, but license.” —John Milton |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
alex23
> If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
> effort!
I'd like to suggest Pyaspora as a more apropos name ;)
Daniel Fetchinson
>> effort!
>
> Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.
When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?
Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
responded to him the same way?
> Rather, please direct seekers to the existing forums (the IRC channel,
> the Usenet groups and mailing lists) rather than setting up new walled
> gardens.
Cheers,
Daniel
--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
Diez B. Roggisch
>>> If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
>>> effort!
>>
>> Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.
>
> When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
> you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?
>
> Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
> email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
> responded to him the same way?
Most probably not - but then because Tim certainly would have discussed this
move with peers from the community, if there is a need for this kind of
forum or not.
Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums. E.g. it
requires much more effort to get to know what new discussions arose, as
well as following ongoing ones - because the interface lacks a
comprehensive overview of that, and features like "jump to next unread
article".
Diez
Daniel Fetchinson
>>>> effort!
>>>
>>> Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.
>>
>> When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
>> you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?
>>
>> Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
>> email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
>> responded to him the same way?
>
> Most probably not - but then because Tim certainly would have discussed this
> move with peers from the community, if there is a need for this kind of
> forum or not.
>
> Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
> frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
> with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums.
If you prefer NNTP/ML, I'd suggest you pay attention to these channels
only. BTW, I prefer ML also and I'm very happy with c.l.p. However
that doesn't mean that I need to be hostile to other forms of
communication and it doesn't mean that I need to discourage people
from setting up other channels of communication for those folks who
prefer them.
If new channels open up for others it will not make c.l.p any worse.
If enough people like c.l.p. it will continue to be a good channel, if
too many too good people switch to an online forum, well, in that case
c.l.p. will cease to be great, but it won't be because of artificial
fragmentation by somebody but because the people started to prefer
online forums (words like "free market" come to mind :))
I generally not register on any online forum and will most probably
not register on pyfora either. But I know for a fact that many people
prefer forums over ML and why shouldn't those people be happy with the
communication platform they like and why shouldn't they be given a
chance to join the python community if the only reason they stayed
away was that they didn't like c.l.p. for one reason or another?
> E.g. it
> requires much more effort to get to know what new discussions arose, as
> well as following ongoing ones - because the interface lacks a
> comprehensive overview of that, and features like "jump to next unread
> article".
These are perfectly legitimate reasons for you to not use online
forums and stick to c.l.p. I do the same thing. But again, if an
enthusiastic python community member wants to open new channels for
those folks who like them, why should anyone be hostile to him/her?
Diez B. Roggisch
>>>>> If you have any suggestions, let me know -- this is a community
>>>>> effort!
>>>> Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community.
>>> When a community grows and consequently its needs also grow, how do
>>> you differentiate "natural growth" from "fragmenting the community"?
>>>
>>> Same question in another way: let's suppose Tim Peters sent the exact
>>> email the OP sent with the exact same website. Would you have
>>> responded to him the same way?
>> Most probably not - but then because Tim certainly would have discussed this
>> move with peers from the community, if there is a need for this kind of
>> forum or not.
>>
>> Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
>> frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
>> with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums.
>
> If you prefer NNTP/ML, I'd suggest you pay attention to these channels
> only. BTW, I prefer ML also and I'm very happy with c.l.p. However
> that doesn't mean that I need to be hostile to other forms of
> communication and it doesn't mean that I need to discourage people
> from setting up other channels of communication for those folks who
> prefer them.
Since when is the mere suggestion that fragmentation will occur and if
that's a desirable consequence is hostile? The OP is not bound to it,
and I also don't see the tone used by the two immediate answerers being
hostile. Paul might have been terse - but hostility looks different IMHO.
The OP *might* come to the conclusion that further fragmenting the
community isn't within his personal goals either. OTOH, he might also
simply think that once his forum gained traction, he can switch on the
google ads, and cash in. Which a forum announced by Tim Peters, run
under python.org wouldn't I'd say.
> If new channels open up for others it will not make c.l.p any worse.
It will, if they catch on. As some competent people will move away.
Again, this is the case in the german python scene, and it plain sucks.
We have a ML, a NG, and a forum. None of them is synchronized in any
way. We wanted to do this for ML and NG - but the guy responsible for
the ML can't be reached, or refuses to answer.
If we had only one source, fragmentation wouldn't occur, and the
competence would be bundled. That I personally prefer MLs and NGs
doesn't mean that I wouldn't turn to the forum if it was *the* way to
talk about Python. But as it stands, there are three kind of things, of
which I'm already subsribed to two - and am annoyed of people posting
questions in both of them.
Now, I can't do anything about it in the sense that I can forbid it. But
questioning the move to create a new form of exchange (especially
something rather uninspired, in contrast to e.g. stackoverflow) I can.
> If enough people like c.l.p. it will continue to be a good channel, if
> too many too good people switch to an online forum, well, in that case
> c.l.p. will cease to be great, but it won't be because of artificial
> fragmentation by somebody but because the people started to prefer
> online forums (words like "free market" come to mind :))
Yes. Or all of them suck equally. Free market again. I'm not against it,
but asking the OP if he really thinks the value of his forum outweighs
the risk of making existing fora worse is a valid question. Free speech,
one other nice free thing out there.
> I generally not register on any online forum and will most probably
> not register on pyfora either. But I know for a fact that many people
> prefer forums over ML and why shouldn't those people be happy with the
> communication platform they like and why shouldn't they be given a
> chance to join the python community if the only reason they stayed
> away was that they didn't like c.l.p. for one reason or another?
>
>> E.g. it
>> requires much more effort to get to know what new discussions arose, as
>> well as following ongoing ones - because the interface lacks a
>> comprehensive overview of that, and features like "jump to next unread
>> article".
>
> These are perfectly legitimate reasons for you to not use online
> forums and stick to c.l.p. I do the same thing. But again, if an
> enthusiastic python community member wants to open new channels for
> those folks who like them, why should anyone be hostile to him/her?
Again, nobody has been.
Diez
Lorenzo Gatti
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
> online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
> and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
> register and post any questions or tips you may have.
I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a
bad idea.
Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's
official newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well-
made and well-frequented general programming sites like
stackoverflow.com.
It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament
in a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to
Las Vegas: there are no incentives to choose your forum, except
perhaps for isolationists who value being a big fish in a small pond
over being part of a community.
If you want to claim a small Python-related corner of the web, you
should write a blog: if it is any good, and probably even if it isn't,
it would be linked and read by someone and it would add to collective
knowledge instead of fragmenting it.
Regards,
Lorenzo Gatti
Steven D'Aprano
> On Nov 1, 8:06 am, Saketh <saketh.bhamidip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
>> online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
>> and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
>> register and post any questions or tips you may have.
>
> I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a bad
> idea.
>
> Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's official
> newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well- made and
> well-frequented general programming sites like stackoverflow.com.
Are you saying that now that comp.lang.python and stackoverflow exists,
there no more room in the world for any more Python forums?
I think that's terrible.
Saketh, would you care to give a brief explanation for sets your forum
apart from the existing Python forums, and why people should choose to
spend time there instead of (or as well as) the existing forums? What
advantages does it have?
> It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament in
> a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to Las
> Vegas: there are no incentives to choose your forum, except perhaps for
> isolationists who value being a big fish in a small pond over being part
> of a community.
(Funny you mention Las Vegas -- it started off as a tiny little town in
the middle of the desert too.)
How about avoiding the noise and obtrusive advertising and bright lights
of Las Vegas, the fakery, the "showmanship", the horrible fake pyramid
and has-been celebrities, the crowds, the tackiness, the high prices, the
bright lights that never turn off (Las Vegas is the brightest city on
Earth)... if you're interested in poker without all the mayonnaise, maybe
that poker tournament away from the tourists is exactly what you need.
Personally, if I wanted to gamble, the last place I would go is any house
which had gold-plated taps in the bathrooms. That tells me the house's
percentage is *way* too high.
--
Steven
Daniel Fetchinson
I was referring to this comment by Ben:
"Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
OP is fragmenting the community, which is something negative, i.e. it
contains negative prejudice. What I would have written in Ben's place:
Have you considered the possibility that your website will further
fragment the community?
This wouldn't have been hostile, IMHO.
> The OP *might* come to the conclusion that further fragmenting the
> community isn't within his personal goals either. OTOH, he might also
> simply think that once his forum gained traction, he can switch on the
> google ads, and cash in. Which a forum announced by Tim Peters, run
> under python.org wouldn't I'd say.
>
>> If new channels open up for others it will not make c.l.p any worse.
>
> It will, if they catch on. As some competent people will move away.
Competent people will only move away if the website is
great/fun/useful/etc. In which case we should welcome it, since
something great/fun/useful/etc is a good thing. If it's not
great/fun/useful/etc competent people will not move away, in which
case c.l.p. will not be any worse as a result of launching the new
website.
> Again, this is the case in the german python scene, and it plain sucks.
> We have a ML, a NG, and a forum. None of them is synchronized in any
> way. We wanted to do this for ML and NG - but the guy responsible for
> the ML can't be reached, or refuses to answer.
Welcome to open source, the world of infinitely many forks, code
variants, MLs, forums, NGs, websites, in other words, welcome to the
bazaar!
Cheers,
Daniel
Ben Finney
> I was referring to this comment by Ben:
>
> "Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>
> This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
> OP is fragmenting the community
It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.
So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.
--
\ “Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings is justice.” |
`\ —Henry L. Mencken |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
Lorenzo Gatti
> Are you saying that now that comp.lang.python and stackoverflow exists,
> there no more room in the world for any more Python forums?
>
> I think that's terrible.
Although there is a high barrier to entry for general Python forums,
it is not a problem because the door is always open for specialized
forums that become the natural "home" of some group or thought leader
or of some special interest, for example the forum of a new software
product or of the fans of an important blog.
Unfortunately, pyfora.org has neither a distinct crowd behind it nor
an unique topic, and thus no niche to fill; it can only contribute
fragmentation, which is unfortunate because Saketh seems enthusiastic.
What in some fields (e.g. warez forums or art boards) would be healthy
redundancy and competition between sites and forums becomes pure
fragmentation if the only effect of multiple forums is to separate the
same questions and opinions that would be posted elsewhere from
potential readers and answerers.
Reasonable people know this and post their requests for help and
discussions either in the same appropriate places as everyone else or
in random places they know and like; one needs serious personal issues
to abandon popular forums for obscure ones.
> Saketh, would you care to give a brief explanation for sets your forum
> apart from the existing Python forums, and why people should choose to
> spend time there instead of (or as well as) the existing forums? What
> advantages does it have?
That's the point, I couldn't put it better.
> > It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament in
> > a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to Las
> > Vegas:
> > [...]
> How about avoiding the noise and obtrusive advertising and bright lights
> of Las Vegas, the fakery, the "showmanship",
> [...]
> if you're interested in poker without all the mayonnaise, maybe
> that poker tournament away from the tourists is exactly what you need.
I didn't explain my similitude clearly: I was comparing the fitness
for purpose of going to Las Vegas with a plan to gamble with the
absurdity of stopping, say, at an isolated gas station in the hope of
finding a poker tournament there.
If you are hinting that popular newsgroups and forums might be so full
of fakery, showmanship, mayonnaise, etc. to deserve secession, it's
another topic.
Regards,
Lorenzo Gatti
Gerhard Häring
> On Nov 1, 8:06 am, Saketh <saketh.bhamidip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
>> online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
>> and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
>> register and post any questions or tips you may have.
>
> I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a
I agree.
> Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's
> official newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well-
> made and well-frequented general programming sites like
> stackoverflow.com. [...]
The good thing is, unless something the announced new forum gets
critical mass, it will just slowly (or not-so-slowly die).
But even though I'm an old-timer who still prefers newsgroups/mailing
lists, I think that there should be something better, browser based. In
particular supporting moderation/voting and tagging/filtering.
-- Gerhard
Daniel Fetchinson
>>
>> "Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>>
>> This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
>> OP is fragmenting the community
>
> It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
> the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.
>
> So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.
Probably this thread is going by far too far :) but let's see this again,
If A says to B "please don't do X" then A assumes that B does X.
Otherwise the request of A doesn't make sense, since it doesn't make
sense to ask somebody not to do something that he/she is not doing.
Agreed?
If no, please explain why you don't agree.
If yes, then I guess we will also agree that if A says to B "please
don't make efforts to do X" then request of A only makes sense if B
makes an effort to do X.
Agreed?
If no, please explain why.
If yes, great, let's continue! If A says to B "please don't make
efforts to fragment the community" then this request from A only makes
sense if B makes an effort to fragment the community.
Agreed?
If no, why not?
If yes, we are almost there! In our example the request of A only
makes sense if B is making an effort to fragment the community, in
other words, assuming that A tries to make a meaningful request, A is
assuming that B is making an effort to fragment the community.
Agreed?
If not, why not?
If yes, with the substitution A = Ben and B = OP we get "in order for
Ben's request to make sense, Ben has to assume that the OP is making
an effort to fragment the community". This assumption on the part of
Ben, I think, is hostile, since it assumes that the OP is making an
effort to do something not nice. Whether the OP is indeed doing
something not nice, is irrelevant. If the OP does do something not
nice, the hostility is warranted. If the OP is not doing anything not
nice, the hostility is unwarranted. But the fact that Ben was hostile
is a fact :)
Cheers,
Daniel
Diez B. Roggisch
>> that's a desirable consequence is hostile? The OP is not bound to it,
>> and I also don't see the tone used by the two immediate answerers being
>> hostile. Paul might have been terse - but hostility looks different IMHO.
>
> I was referring to this comment by Ben:
>
> "Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>
> This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
> OP is fragmenting the community, which is something negative, i.e. it
> contains negative prejudice. What I would have written in Ben's place:
>
> Have you considered the possibility that your website will further
> fragment the community?
>
> This wouldn't have been hostile, IMHO.
Well, this is *deep* into the realms of semantics and dialectics. To an
extend that personal prejudice would change the perception of the sentence.
If everything posted here (and elsewhere) had to be worded so carefully,
we'd hardly discussing anything at all.
> Competent people will only move away if the website is
> great/fun/useful/etc. In which case we should welcome it, since
> something great/fun/useful/etc is a good thing. If it's not
> great/fun/useful/etc competent people will not move away, in which
> case c.l.p. will not be any worse as a result of launching the new
> website.
There is not only the problem of people moving away - but also of them not
even finding *this* place to discuss because they found pyfora first, and
thus the "danger" of them getting not the good answers they are looking
for. This sometimes already happens, if one of the google ad farms out
there that tries to lure people onto their pages simply reproduces c.l.py
content - and people believe it's a genuine forum - and wonder why they
don't get answers there.
> Welcome to open source, the world of infinitely many forks, code
> variants, MLs, forums, NGs, websites, in other words, welcome to the
> bazaar!
Oh please. If every dissent on the direction of an open-source project (or
commercial one) would lead to forking, we'd end up with a lot of projects
which none of them being competitive and mature. So can we scrap this
straw-man of an argument?
Diez
Ethan Furman
>>>I was referring to this comment by Ben:
>>>
>>>"Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>>>
>>>This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
>>>OP is fragmenting the community
>>
>>It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
>>the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.
>>
>>So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.
>
[mass snippitude]
> If yes, with the substitution A = Ben and B = OP we get "in order for
> Ben's request to make sense, Ben has to assume that the OP is making
> an effort to fragment the community". This assumption on the part of
> Ben, I think, is hostile, since it assumes that the OP is making an
> effort to do something not nice. Whether the OP is indeed doing
> something not nice, is irrelevant. If the OP does do something not
> nice, the hostility is warranted. If the OP is not doing anything not
> nice, the hostility is unwarranted. But the fact that Ben was hostile
> is a fact :)
You were doing fine until you brought in the hostility. I must agree
with Ben that his comment was not hostile. It was merely a statement.
Not an exclamation, no name calling, just a plain request rooted in reality.
And that's a fact. ;-)
Shall we now discuss the nature of the space/time continuum and the
exact reality of quarks?
~Ethan~
Ben Finney
> Probably this thread is going by far too far :)
Agreed.
--
\ 德不孤、必有鄰。 (The virtuous are not abandoned, they shall |
`\ surely have neighbours.) —孔夫子 Confucius, 551 BCE – 479 BCE |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
Rhodri James
<fetch...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> If yes, we are almost there! In our example the request of A only
> makes sense if B is making an effort to fragment the community, in
> other words, assuming that A tries to make a meaningful request, A is
> assuming that B is making an effort to fragment the community.
You are assuming here that B is intending his efforts to do X, and
that A believes this to be the case. That's the assumption where
your chain of logic fails; it is entirely possible that A's statement
is abridging a chain of logic that B hasn't considered, and that A
is making no assumption of any kind concerning B's intent.
Say hello to the Law of Unintended Consequences.
--
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses
Daniel Fetchinson
>>>>
>>>>"Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>>>>
>>>>This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
>>>>OP is fragmenting the community
>>>
>>>It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
>>>the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.
>>>
>>>So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.
>>
>
>
>> If yes, with the substitution A = Ben and B = OP we get "in order for
>> Ben's request to make sense, Ben has to assume that the OP is making
>> an effort to fragment the community". This assumption on the part of
>> Ben, I think, is hostile, since it assumes that the OP is making an
>> effort to do something not nice. Whether the OP is indeed doing
>> something not nice, is irrelevant. If the OP does do something not
>> nice, the hostility is warranted. If the OP is not doing anything not
>> nice, the hostility is unwarranted. But the fact that Ben was hostile
>> is a fact :)
>
> You were doing fine until you brought in the hostility. I must agree
> with Ben that his comment was not hostile. It was merely a statement.
> Not an exclamation, no name calling, just a plain request rooted in reality.
Okay, before we get to quarks let's see what 'hostile' means :)
>From Merriam-Webster http://www.learnersdictionary.net/dictionary/hostile :
1 a : of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire>
b : marked by malevolence <a hostile act>
c : openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas>
d (1) : not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment>
(2) : having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature
<a hostile workplace>
Now, I think the OP was perceived by Ben as doing something which he
thinks is not good. We most probably agree on this. In other words,
Ben was opposing the OP's ideas. Yet in other words, Ben was resisting
the OP's ideas. And yet in other words, Ben was not hospitable. So
perhaps 1a and 1b doesn't quite fit the bill since Ben didn't go as
far as call the OP an enemy and he wasn't evil or wished harm to the
OP, but 1c and d(1) are certainly correctly describing his behavior
and to a lesser extent d(2) as well.
And the quarks...... :)
Cheers,
Daniel
> And that's a fact. ;-)
>
> Shall we now discuss the nature of the space/time continuum and the
> exact reality of quarks?
--
Daniel Fetchinson
>>>
>>> I am proud to announce the release of Pyfora (http://pyfora.org), an
>>> online community of Python enthusiasts to supplement comp.lang.python
>>> and #python. While the site is small right now, please feel free to
>>> register and post any questions or tips you may have.
>>
>> I'll feel free to not even bookmark it. I'm sorry, but it is just a bad
>> idea.
>>
>> Your forum cannot (and should not) compete either with Python's official
>> newsgroup, IRC channel and mailing list or with popular, well- made and
>> well-frequented general programming sites like stackoverflow.com.
>
> Are you saying that now that comp.lang.python and stackoverflow exists,
> there no more room in the world for any more Python forums?
Exactly.
> I think that's terrible.
Exactly.
> Saketh, would you care to give a brief explanation for sets your forum
> apart from the existing Python forums, and why people should choose to
> spend time there instead of (or as well as) the existing forums? What
> advantages does it have?
Yes, this is about the right kind of response I think everybody
deserves who puts energy/enthusiasm/effort/time into putting together
a python-related forum.
Cheers,
Daniel
>> It would be the Internet equivalent of looking for a poker tournament in
>> a desert valley instead of driving half an hour less and going to Las
>> Vegas: there are no incentives to choose your forum, except perhaps for
>> isolationists who value being a big fish in a small pond over being part
>> of a community.
>
> (Funny you mention Las Vegas -- it started off as a tiny little town in
> the middle of the desert too.)
>
> How about avoiding the noise and obtrusive advertising and bright lights
> of Las Vegas, the fakery, the "showmanship", the horrible fake pyramid
> and has-been celebrities, the crowds, the tackiness, the high prices, the
> bright lights that never turn off (Las Vegas is the brightest city on
> Earth)... if you're interested in poker without all the mayonnaise, maybe
> that poker tournament away from the tourists is exactly what you need.
>
> Personally, if I wanted to gamble, the last place I would go is any house
> which had gold-plated taps in the bathrooms. That tells me the house's
> percentage is *way* too high.
--
Ethan Furman
>>>>>I was referring to this comment by Ben:
>>>>>
>>>>>"Suggestion: Please don't make efforts to fragment the community."
>>>>>
>>>>>This IMHO is hostile, because it presupposes that the mere goal of the
>>>>>OP is fragmenting the community
>>>>
>>>>It presupposes nothing of any goal. It describes a predictable result of
>>>>the OP's efforts, and requests those efforts to cease.
>>>>
>>>>So I deny the characterisation of that request as hostile.
>>>
AH hahahahahahah.
Okay, you got me. However, if we're going to start looking up the exact
denotations of words to justify our remarks, surely we should also pay
attention to the connotations? In normal, everyday speach the
denotations of 'resisting' and 'opposed to' are very different from
'hostile' -- hence such phrases as 'resisting with hostility' and
'hostiley opposed to'.
In other words, I'll grant you the win of that hair, but I still would
not characterize it as hostile. ;-)
~Ethan~
Valentina Boycheva
> >Probably this thread is going by far too far :)
>Ben Finney [ben+p...@benfinney.id.au] writes:
> Agreed.
I was following this discussion first with curiosity and then with
increasing disbelief. As a scientist and a programmer, I always
considered myself belonging to a group of people who are broad-minded
and task-oriented.
Being an occasional Python programmer, I subscribed to this list in the
hopes of learning from the pros. Most of the time I do. But I also see a
disturbing trend of petty bickering, splitting hairs and one-upmanship.
I understand there will be occasional language slips and misconstrued
jokes but can we please stick to the topic and remain courteous at all
times? I am seriously considering unsubscribing from this UL (and maybe
joining Pyfora.)
Terry Reedy
> I was following this discussion first with curiosity and then with
> increasing disbelief.
> So stop following it. Really.
> As a scientist and a programmer, I always
> considered myself belonging to a group of people who are broad-minded
> and task-oriented.
Ditto.
I read python-list as the newgroup gmane.comp.python.general and only
download the posts I select, which is well less than half, depending on
my mood;-). -- which is to say, whether or not I am looking for
time-wasting entertainment ;-)
> Being an occasional Python programmer, I subscribed to this list in the
> hopes of learning from the pros. Most of the time I do. But I also see a
> disturbing trend of petty bickering, splitting hairs and one-upmanship.
I have been reading for over 10 years and see no increasing trend. The
worst times were definitely in the past.
> I understand there will be occasional language slips and misconstrued
> jokes but can we please stick to the topic and remain courteous at all
> times?
I completely agree, but have given up most admonishments ;-)
> I am seriously considering unsubscribing from this UL
That would be a shame.
> (and maybe joining Pyfora.)
That should be an independent decision. Most PHPBBS web forums I have
seen are about the same or worse as far as civility.
Terry Jan Reedy
Alan Franzoni
> Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
> frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
> with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums. E.g. it
That's right... forums, although more "accessible" to all the people who
can't/doesn't want to use specific email or nntp clients, are quite slow
to use.
But I think Ubuntu forums support threads and are kind of "channeled"
between ML and webinterface... something like Google Groups; I think
THAT would be a good idea. What about trying to "channel"
comp.lang.python and a forum?
--
Alan Franzoni
contact me at public@[mysurname].eu
Ned Deily
Alan Franzoni <doesno...@franzoni.invalid> wrote:
comp.lang.python *is* already "channel"ed in multiple venues: the Usenet
group itself, the base python.org mailing list, gmane.org (NNTP
newsgroup from the mailing list, various web interfaces, RSS feed),
google groups, and others.
--
Ned Deily,
n...@acm.org
Ben Finney
> That's right... forums, although more "accessible" to all the people
> who can't/doesn't want to use specific email or nntp clients, are
> quite slow to use.
>
> But I think Ubuntu forums support threads and are kind of "channeled"
> between ML and webinterface... something like Google Groups; I think
> THAT would be a good idea. What about trying to "channel"
> comp.lang.python and a forum?
Please, be more specific. As I said earlier in this thread, a “forum”
could be a mailing list, a Usenet newsgroup, a walled-garden web
application, an IRC channel, or a face-to-face meeting in a pub.
So speaking of comp.lang.python as though it's *not* a forum is
confusing. Please choose a term that makes it clear why what one is
speaking about is distinct from the comp.lang.python forum.
--
\ “Just because nobody complains doesn't mean all parachutes are |
`\ perfect.” —Benny Hill |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
alex23
> Yes, this is about the right kind of response I think everybody
> deserves who puts energy/enthusiasm/effort/time into putting together
> a python-related forum.
So what's the right kind of response deserved by those who put energy/
enthusiasm/effort/time into sustaining _this_ python-related forum?
Accusations of hostility? Second-guessing their intentions?
What right do you have to demand different behaviour from that which
you yourself have demonstrated?
George Oliver
uses Python into a single community even if you tried.
Besides, everyone knows about python-forum.org, right? ;)
Alan Franzoni
Please, be more specific. As I said earlier in this thread, a “forum”
> could be a mailing list, a Usenet newsgroup, a walled-garden web
> application, an IRC channel, or a face-to-face meeting in a pub.
>
> So speaking of comp.lang.python as though it's *not* a forum is
> confusing. Please choose a term that makes it clear why what one is
> speaking about is distinct from the comp.lang.python forum.
Ok, when speaking about "forums" I meant a web-accessible public
discussion group, something like those based on phpBB or Invision.
But, as they correctly told me, this newgroup/mailing list is already
web-accessible via Google Groups, so there would be no need for other
web-based mirrors.
Daniel Fetchinson
> uses Python into a single community even if you tried.
>
> Besides, everyone knows about python-forum.org, right? ;)
Well, no, I actually didn't :)
There! Another fragmenter!
Cheers,
Daniel
Paul Boddie
>
> Ok, when speaking about "forums" I meant a web-accessible public
> discussion group, something like those based on phpBB or Invision.
>
> But, as they correctly told me, this newgroup/mailing list is already
> web-accessible via Google Groups, so there would be no need for other
> web-based mirrors.
I think that the community should try and make people more aware of
the options. For example:
http://www.python.org/community/lists/
http://wiki.python.org/moin/MailingListsAndNewsgroups
(These resources need work, of course, and I encourage people to edit
the Wiki-based resources and make them better.)
Certainly, it's possible to read existing discussion venues - to avoid
the overloaded term "forum" ;-) - using Web browsers, and I've seen
Nabble promoted in some communities for this very purpose when people
wanted to set up a "Web forum" because they didn't like mailing lists.
I find Web forums inefficient, often full of "low-density" content
(which then clogs up search results), and many of them give the
impression that they won't be around for very long anyway. That said,
there can still be understandable reasons why people want to have such
forums, not limited to cultivating a small-scale community with an
emphasis on getting to know others who are at the same level of
expertise, typically with a social dimension that probably seems
superfluous to those of us who use comp.lang.python and prefer that
the discussion mostly remains focused on the topic of the group.
Paul
Mel
Or ohloh.net . Unless people use multiple pen names, there's a gang of
Python developers there who don't hang out here. "stani" is the only name I
recognize.
Mel.
Saketh
wrote:
Hi everyone,
My small effort to create a place for discussing Python seems to have
sparked a larger discussion than I had anticipated. My intent in
creating Pyfora is not to splinter the community or encroach upon
comp.lang.python users, but to create an alternative location where
users can discuss Python. If this offends or irritates anyone, please
accept my humble apologies.
I understand that forums can be degenerate and uncivil, but my hope is
that with Pyfora, beginners will have a place to freely ask questions
in a genial environment. A large part of my computer upbringing was on
forums, and I wanted to share that experience with new Python users.
Sincerely,
Saketh
Aneesh Kulkarni
"fragmenting the community". Should we hurl the same accusation at
Guido for fragmenting the programmer community and creating Python,
when perfectly fine languages like Perl, Lisp & Smalltalk already
existed?
Creating new things is a part of the natural evolution of the web
ecosystem. Some of them will succeed, like Python itself did, and
ultimately improve the ecosystem. New places hardly fragment the
community, because at the early stages, they usually don't draw many
resources away from existing communities; by the time they do, they
can be valuable contributors to the larger community in their own
right.
Aneesh
On Nov 7, 2:58 am, Saketh <saketh.bhamidip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 4, 5:28 pm, Alan Franzoni <doesnotex...@franzoni.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 11/2/09 3:44 PM, Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
>
> > > Being from germany, I can say that we *have* this fragmentation, and
> > > frankly: I don't like it. I prefer my communication via NNTP/ML, and not
> > > with those visually rather noisy and IMHO suboptimal forums. E.g. it
>
> > That's right... forums, although more "accessible" to all the people who
> > can't/doesn't want to use specific email or nntp clients, are quite slow
> > to use.
>
> > But I think Ubuntu forums support threads and are kind of "channeled"
> > between ML and webinterface... something like Google Groups; I think
> > THAT would be a good idea. What about trying to "channel"
> > comp.lang.python and a forum?
>
> > --
> > Alan Franzoni
> > contact me at public@[mysurname].eu
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> My small effort to create a place for discussing Python seems to have
> sparked a larger discussion than I had anticipated. My intent in
> creatingPyforais not to splinter the community or encroach upon
> comp.lang.python users, but to create an alternative location where
> users can discuss Python. If this offends or irritates anyone, please
> accept my humble apologies.
>
> I understand that forums can be degenerate and uncivil, but my hope is
> that withPyfora, beginners will have a place to freely ask questions
Terry Reedy
> On Nov 4, 5:28 pm, Alan Franzoni <doesnotex...@franzoni.invalid>
> My small effort to create a place for discussing Python seems to have
> sparked a larger discussion than I had anticipated. My intent in
> creating Pyfora is not to splinter the community or encroach upon
> comp.lang.python users, but to create an alternative location where
> users can discuss Python. If this offends or irritates anyone, please
> accept my humble apologies.
>
> I understand that forums can be degenerate and uncivil, but my hope is
> that with Pyfora, beginners will have a place to freely ask questions
> in a genial environment. A large part of my computer upbringing was on
> forums, and I wanted to share that experience with new Python users.
I have no problem with efforts to create something new and different. I
am curious whether you were or have become aware of
http://www.python-forum.org/pythonforum/index.php
It seems to already do what you intended to do, so if you want to
continue, you might think of how to differentiate PyFora.
Terry Jan Reedy