Newsgroup for beginners
mrholtsr
programming and python?
Diez B. Roggisch
> Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
> programming and python?
Yes, the tutor-list.
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Diez
Chris Rebert
> Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
> programming and python?
python-tutor:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Cheers,
Chris
--
http://blog.rebertia.com
Tim Chase
> Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
> programming and python?
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
-tkc
Terry Reedy
> Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
> programming and python?
gmane.comp.python.tutor, which I believe mirrors the tutor-list
George Oliver
There also is a beginner's forum at python-forum.org:
Paul Rubin
> Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
> programming and python?
This group has its grouchy moments but for the most part it's
reasonably friendly to beginners. The worst thing that usually
happens is that if you ask a simple question, a bunch of experts will
show off their knowledge to each other by giving you insanely
complicated answers that you have no reason to want to understand.
But they're not exactly being hostile when they do that. They're just
really really into advanced Python programming. So go ahead and ask
your questions. The first responses will probably be the most
helpful, after which the response thread will go off into nerdy
tangents that you can ignore.
Grant Edwards
> mrholtsr <mrho...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
>> programming and python?
>
> This group has its grouchy moments
You've really got to try pretty hard to create one. But if you
want to, here's how to do it:
1) Start by complaining that your program doesn't work because
of a bug in Python.
2) Python programs are portable, so don't reveal what OS or
Python version you're using. People will ask. Just ignore
them.
2) State that your program "doesn't work", but don't explain
either what you expect it to do or what it actually does.
3) Don't post the code that you're having problems with.
4) Once people start to get annoyed that you won't post any
example code showing the problem you're having, then you
post code.
a) Post lots of code. The bigger the program the better;
try for at least 500 lines -- but make sure that you
leave out a few functions and "import" some libraries
nobody has ever heard of.
b) Post code that doesn't match the code who's behaviour
you're describing (remember: be vague and be careful
not to actually show real input or output at this
point).
c) For maximum effect try to make sure that what you post
won't compile by inserting typos and changing the
indentation in a few places.
5) Once you've stalled as long as possible you want to post
code that will comipile and run. Now we move on to example
inout and output.
a) post output from a _different_ version of the program
than what you're running.
b) post input to and output from your program, but make
sure that the output was generated with input
differenent that what was posted.
c) rather than cutting/pasting input and output, make sure
you manually retype it into your posting --
inaccurately.
In any other newsgroup, you'd have been burnt to a crisp and
plonked long before getting this far, but in c.l.p there are
still going to be a few people trying to help you. Now is the
time to start making snide comments about how it would be so
much easier in VB/Perl/C++ (pick whichever one you know the
most about).
Pick a feature from VB/Perl/C++ unrelated to the original
problem and start demanding that it be added to Python so that
you can use it to make your program work.
For the final touch, forget about the original "bug" and start
to wax philosophic about how this is just another typical
example of the problems with Python, open-source, mass transit,
the designated hitter, auto-tune, people who like cats, and the
dewey decimal system. Use lots of poetic-sounding but
nonsensical metaphors.
It'll take several days and a fair bit of work, but you will be
able to produce a some grouchy responses in c.l.p.
> but for the most part it's reasonably friendly to beginners.
> The worst thing that usually happens is that if you ask a
> simple question, a bunch of experts will show off their
> knowledge to each other by giving you insanely complicated
> answers that you have no reason to want to understand.
That usually happens when the question is vague and incomplete
enough so that people have to guess what is being asked. Some
people tend to guess more "interesting" questions than others.
One will also get rather arcane answers when a poorly thought
out question is answered literally. IOW, somebody asks "how to
I do B?" when B _really_ isn't something anybody is going to
want to in Python, but if you twist the language around enough
you can actually _do_ B (even if it's quite pointless). The
real question was "how do I accomplish A", but the poster
having incorrectly assumed the answer is B, didn't ask "how do
I accomplish A?"
They're really not trying to torture beginners, they just think
it's interesting trying to figure out a way to do B.
Even if you do get some obscure answers, others will always
figure out that what you really wanted to know was "how do I
accomplish A" and tell you the best way to accomplish A and why
B isn't what you want to do.
--
Grant
Ben Finney
> 2) State that your program "doesn't work", but don't explain
> either what you expect it to do or what it actually does.
A different flavour of this is also good for setting the seeds of
grouchiness:
2a) Write a Subject field that doesn't say anything about what you're
asking, so the thread doesn't garner any attention from busy
people.
For bonus points, put something like “newbie question” there
instead of anything actually relevant to the problem.
No, this thread is not an example; the Subject field is an entirely
relevant concise description of the information being sought.
--
\ “bash awk grep perl sed, df du, du-du du-du, vi troff su fsck |
`\ rm * halt LART LART LART!” —The Swedish BOFH, |
_o__) alt.sysadmin.recovery |
Ben Finney
Tim Chase
> of a bug in Python.
1b) Omit the fact that this is a homework problem, and you want
c.l.p to do your homework for you
> 4) Once people start to get annoyed that you won't post any
> example code showing the problem you're having, then you
> post code.
>
> a) Post lots of code. The bigger the program the better;
> try for at least 500 lines -- but make sure that you
> leave out a few functions and "import" some libraries
> nobody has ever heard of.
>
> b) Post code that doesn't match the code who's behaviour
> you're describing (remember: be vague and be careful
> not to actually show real input or output at this
> point).
>
> c) For maximum effect try to make sure that what you post
> won't compile by inserting typos and changing the
> indentation in a few places.
d) you post a link to your uploaded code on some code-sharing
site that requires the latest versions of JavaScript, Flash,
Silverlight, Java, and requires cookies to be enabled just to
read your flippin' code.
> c) rather than cutting/pasting input and output, make sure
> you manually retype it into your posting --
> inaccurately.
[sheepish grin] Guilty as charged on at least one occasion.
> It'll take several days and a fair bit of work, but you will be
> able to produce a some grouchy responses in c.l.p.
oh, shut up! ;-)
> One will also get rather arcane answers when a poorly thought
> out question is answered literally. IOW, somebody asks "how to
> I do B?" when B _really_ isn't something anybody is going to
> want to in Python, but if you twist the language around enough
> you can actually _do_ B (even if it's quite pointless). The
> real question was "how do I accomplish A", but the poster
> having incorrectly assumed the answer is B, didn't ask "how do
> I accomplish A?"
"But why can't I use regular expressions to do...?" :-)
Even the best Pythoneers get grouchy ("This parrot wouldn't VOOM
if you put 4 million volts through it!")
-tkc
Aahz
Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>You've really got to try pretty hard to create one. But if you
>want to, here's how to do it:
>
> 1) Start by complaining that your program doesn't work because
> of a bug in Python.
>
Post of the month!
--
Aahz (aa...@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian W. Kernighan
Ethan Furman
> In article <hdt6tb$9du$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>You've really got to try pretty hard to create one. But if you
>>want to, here's how to do it:
>>
>>1) Start by complaining that your program doesn't work because
>> of a bug in Python.
>>
>> [...]
>
>
> Post of the month!
I'll second that! I really needed a good laugh. Many thanks!
bruno.des...@gmail.com
> Aahz wrote:
> > In article <hdt6tb$9d...@reader1.panix.com>,
> > Grant Edwards <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>You've really got to try pretty hard to create one. But if you
> >>want to, here's how to do it:
>
> >>1) Start by complaining that your program doesn't work because
> >> of a bug in Python.
>
> >> [...]
>
> > Post of the month!
>
> I'll second that! I really needed a good laugh. Many thanks!
So I'll thrice it - FWIW it indeed made it's way to the weekly python
(thanks the python-url team), but deserves much more than that. I was
so hilarious my son came out of it's room and even tried to read the
post by himself - I just wasn't able to calm down and explain him what
this was about.
Grant, if we ever meet, remind me to pay you a couple beers. Cheers !
John Machin
> On 2009-11-17, Paul Rubin <http> wrote:
>
> >> Is there a Python newsgroup for those who are strictly beginners at
> >> programming and python?
>
> > This group has its grouchy moments
>
> You've really got to try pretty hard to create one. But if you
> want to, here's how to do it:
> 2) Python programs are portable, so don't reveal what OS or
> Python version you're using. People will ask. Just ignore
> them.
Don't supply a traceback, lest you inadvertently divulge such
information (and more!) e.g.
File "C:\python26\lib\encodings\cp1252.py", line 15, in decode
A good safeguard against accidental disclosure of your Python version
is to avoid using the default installation folder:
File "C:\snake_teehee_ima_comedian\lib\etc_etc"
This technique, used in a question like "How can I have multiple
versions of Python installed" gives a good chance of getting a grumpy
response.