Editor for Python
MANUEL FERNANDEZ PEREZ
I'm looking for an editor for Python.I' m interested it works on Windows.Can
anybody help me?
Thank you
Manuel
x
"MANUEL FERNANDEZ PEREZ" <manu...@navegalia.com> wrote in message
news:3bfd...@news.airtel.net...
stephen cox
IDE for Windows.
--
Stephen Cox
web.net geek for non-profits, political campaigns, and a few socially
conscious businesses.
ste...@stephencox.org
"x" <x...@y.com> wrote in message
news:QcgL7.98469$8a.72...@news1.rsm1.occa.home.com...
Andreas Ulbrich
Well, that's pretty much a matter of taste. Holy wars have been fought
about this issue. Anyhow, I prefer vim (www.vim.org) for all my
programming be it Python, C[++], Java or whatever.
Dale Strickland-Clark
PythonWin is pretty good and has pop-up help for class attributes.
There also Edit Plus 2 (http://www.editplus.com/)which can be
configured to syntax high-light a bunch of stuff including Python.
--
Dale Strickland-Clark
Riverhall Systems Ltd
Alan Kennedy
> Hello,
> I'm looking for an editor for Python.I' m interested it works on Windows.Can
> anybody help me?
I find UltraEdit, which is just a text editor with some basic
IDE-style facilities, to be fast quick and reliable. And it does
Python syntax highlighting, with an optional download.
Alan.
Kragen Sitaker
> Hello,
> I'm looking for an editor for Python.I' m interested it works on Windows.Can
> anybody help me?
I used XEmacs last time I was doing this. It runs on Windows (as well
as anything else, so you won't get left behind when Windows dies), is
good at handling hundreds of open files totalling gigabytes open in
multiple windows, does syntax-highlighting of Python (and C, and
Fortran, and Perl, and SQL, and Tcl, and 16 other languages, out of
the box), is reasonably fast, has automatic name completion with
alt-/, auto-saves your files once a minute or so (to a special
auto-save file, not on top of the original) so your machine crashing
doesn't lose you any work, and has more good programmers using it than
any other editor.
I've also used Vim on Windows. Many of the same things can be said
about it.
Editors are rather a religious issue.
Skip Montanaro
Manuel> I'm looking for an editor for Python.I' m interested it works on
Manuel> Windows.Can anybody help me?
Check out
http://www.python.org/editors/
for a list of stuff known at the moment.
--
Skip Montanaro (sk...@pobox.com - http://www.mojam.com/)
Markus Faust
Fred Pacquier
> Hello,
> I'm looking for an editor for Python.I' m interested it works on
> Windows.Can anybody help me?
If all you want is an editor that treats Pythoncode well, not a full-blown
IDE, then you might want to look at SciTe (http://www.scintilla.org). It's
lightweight, effective, and the interface can be localized easily in the
latest version.
--
YAFAP : http://www.multimania.com/fredp/
Mats Wichmann
wrote:
:
: Manuel> I'm looking for an editor for Python.I' m interested it works on
: Manuel> Windows.Can anybody help me?
:
:Check out
:
: http://www.python.org/editors/
:
:for a list of stuff known at the moment.
Thank you, Skip!
And in future (forlorn hope), could we all resist jumping in with 50
or so conflicting opinions about editors and just point to the page,
unless there's a VERY specific question.
Mats Wichmann
Tim Hammerquist
> And in future (forlorn hope), could we all resist jumping in with 50
> or so conflicting opinions about editors and just point to the page,
> unless there's a VERY specific question.
There need not be 50 conflicting opinions. One only needs two editors:
- Vim
- Emacs
=)
Tim Hammerquist
--
LISP programmers know the value of everything and the cost of nothing.
-- Alan Perlis' corruption of an Oscar Wilde quote
Skip Montanaro
Tim> There need not be 50 conflicting opinions. One only needs two
Tim> editors:
Tim> - Vim
Tim> - Emacs
Tim> =)
Well, if you have a fast internet connection, you can install Emacs, which
has a vi emulation mode, so you really only need one editor. ;-)
from-someone-who-struggled-with-vi-for-a-couple-hours-today-ly, y'rs,
Tim Hammerquist
[ snip ]
> Well, if you have a fast internet connection, you can install Emacs, which
> has a vi emulation mode, so you really only need one editor. ;-)
>
> from-someone-who-struggled-with-vi-for-a-couple-hours-today-ly, y'rs,
I'm a vi man myself. I've made great strides recently in compiling vim
(my fave clone) with a python interpreter (ie, I can script Vim with
Python), as well as several other aspects.
I've learned, however, never to dog on Emacs in this ng. Emacs appears
to be very widely used among some Pythonistas, and I'm in the penalty
box as it is being a double agent (Python _and_ Perl!).
Besides, all I'd really need to run Emacs is 10 fingers...per hand. =)
Tim Hammerquist
--
Hackers who anthropomorphize are expressing not a vitalistic view
of a program behavior but a mechanistic view of human behavior.
-- Jargon File 4.3.1
Tim Hammerquist
> I've learned, however, never to dog on Emacs in this ng.
Courageous <jkr...@san.rr.com> graced us by uttering:
> Emacs is inspired by Satan. I largely say this for having used
> Lisp, where I became forever alienated by the concept of linking a
> language which requires (or comes close to requiring) a specific
> editor.
*steps slowly away* =)
I've found Lisp interesting. I'm not making drastic plans to switch
my entire workload of projects over to it at the moment, but to say
it's inspired by Satan is a bit overkill, IMO. =)
Besides...everyone knows the only language endorsed by Mista
Satan-san is VB. ;)
Tim Hammerquist
--
Let's say the docs present a simplified view of reality... :-)
-- Larry Wall in <69...@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>
Max
On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 03:19:06 GMT, Tim Hammerquist <t...@vegeta.ath.cx> wrote:
>Mats Wichmann <ma...@laplaza.org> graced us by uttering:
Hans Nowak
> >There need not be 50 conflicting opinions. One only needs two editors:
> >
> > - Vim
> > - Emacs
> >
> >=)
> >
> >Tim Hammerquist
>
> Why two editors? Will not one or the other do?
Yes, but which one that is has been an age-old dispute. :-)
(Hint: I use the one that has the same name as a Dutch cleaning
solution. :-)
--Hans
Tim Hammerquist
> Max wrote:
> > Tim Hammerquist wrote:
> > > There need not be 50 conflicting opinions. One only needs two editors:
> > > - Vim
> > > - Emacs
> > > =)
> >
>
> Yes, but which one that is has been an age-old dispute. :-)
Ding, ding, ding!! And _that's_ exactly why I didn't choose just one.
> (Hint: I use the one that has the same name as a Dutch
> cleaning solution. :-)
I'm not familiar with Dutch, but mine's the one that can be stored as a
C char[] in only 4 bytes. ;)
Cheers!
Tim Hammerquist
--
Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow
truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot.
-- Morpheus, The Sandman
Jonathan Gardner
> > >
> > > - Vim
> > > - Emacs
> >
>
> Yes, but which one that is has been an age-old dispute. :-)
I am curious as to what editors are being used to edit python. I get the
feeling that most people who post here, especially the gurus, use *ahem*
Vim *ahem*.
I will do an informal poll.
Send an email with a subject of "python editor poll" and I'll do a quick
tally and post the results tomorrow.
Please don't post your preference to this list, it tends to get exciting.
Jonathan
* In case you're wondering what editor I use, let me just say that it works
really well with the email client that sucks less than all the others.
* If you are still wondering, one of my projects at sourceforge is called
python-vim. (http://sf.net/projects/python-vim). I haven't uploaded
anything because I am waiting for some advice from Bram on licensing.
Tim Hammerquist
> I am curious as to what editors are being used to edit python. I get the
> feeling that most people who post here, especially the gurus, use *ahem*
> Vim *ahem*.
I'd actually gotten the opposite impression. Most gurus who mention
their editors seem to use Emacs, and I believe Guido himself uses Emacs,
so...
I believe Emacs' superior python-mode may be due to this preference.
> Send an email with a subject of "python editor poll" and I'll do a quick
> tally and post the results tomorrow.
Um, Vim. =)
> Please don't post your preference to this list, it tends to get exciting.
You wanna start a flame war? Say you're a Vimmer _and_ a Perler! I
learned my lesson!
> * In case you're wondering what editor I use, let me just say that it works
> really well with the email client that sucks less than all the others.
Yes, I use the mutt+vim combo, myself. You couldn't _pay_ me to change.
> * If you are still wondering, one of my projects at sourceforge is called
> python-vim. (http://sf.net/projects/python-vim). I haven't uploaded
> anything because I am waiting for some advice from Bram on licensing.
I'm watching that project with great interest, especially after trying
the code you posted to vim-dev and comp.editors. BTW, when you figure
out which license to you, would you either post the result to vim-dev or
email me? I'd appreciate it.
And, again, my deepest apologies for confusing you with "Simon."
All the best,
Tim Hammerquist
--
Pride gets no pleasure out of having something,
only out of having more of it than the next man.
-- C. S. Lewis
Michael Hudson
> * In case you're wondering what editor I use, let me just say that it works
> really well with the email client that sucks less than all the others.
And the one I use *contains* the mail (and news) client that sucks
less than all the others...
(which is quite a nice encapsulation of the debate, really...)
Cheers,
M.
--
If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran.
If you give someone Lisp, he has any language he pleases.
-- Guy L. Steele Jr, quoted by David Rush in comp.lang.scheme.scsh
Tim Hammerquist
[ snip ]
> And the one I use *contains* the mail (and news) client that sucks
> less than all the others...
Besides, I tried GNUS and didn't like it. The mail client fell short,
too.
Yeah, I suppose in this way, Emacs breaks free from the all too
confining Unix Philosophy... Do _one_ thing and do it well.
(PS: I don't have to learn Lisp to script Vim...I can use Python...
This was originally a python thread, wasn't it? =)
Tim Hammerquist
--
If you had two people with a motive, and one of them
was alive, who would you arrest?
-- Inspector Boot, "Theater of Blood"
Jonathan Gardner
>
> Real Programmers use Emacs.
>
IANARP =) But I play one on TV.
> [So do I. But not usually for Python; I hardly ever write any Python,
> and when I do I usually just type it at the prompt -- no editor]
AACK! You should be using *perl* for that...
Python is great for large projects; perl is great for one liners.
Rinse, repeat.
[no editor??? I'll pass on that...]
> > * In case you're wondering what editor I use, let me just say that it
> > works really well with the email client that sucks less than all the
> > others.
>
> That's Gnus. So you use Emacs!
>
Err... you *DO* know the slogan for mutt, right? "The email client that
sucks less than all the others."
<snip>
> Right? Do I win a chocolate fish? :-)
<><
Enjoy. Have another...
<><
Jonathan
* No harm intended... just fun for fun's sake.
Jonathan Gardner
> (PS: I don't have to learn Lisp to script Vim...I can use Python...
> This was originally a python thread, wasn't it? =)
>
What, you can't use python in Emacs? This cannot be true... can it?
*rubbing eyes*
Jonathan
François Pinard
> Tim Hammerquist wrote:
> > (PS: I don't have to learn Lisp to script Vim...I can use Python...
> > This was originally a python thread, wasn't it? =)
> What, you can't use python in Emacs? This cannot be true... can it?
> *rubbing eyes*
Sure, it can. Cedric Adjih and Brian McErlean worked in that direction,
and I summed up their work into a small package, which may be found as:
wget http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard/pymacs/pymacs.tar.gz
--
François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard
Jonathan Gardner
Emacs: 13
Rude people that use emacs: 1. >:-P (No, RMS did not reply.)
*MicroSoft* Visual SlickEdit: 1 brave soul
ActiveState Komodo 1.1: 1 lone voice
Vim (NOT vi): 7592
Really cool people that use Vim: All of 'em.
This poll had a total of 7607 respondents, myself included. Therefore, if you
are using emacs and you haven't tried vim yet, you should know that you are
in the minority here! HAHAHA! How does it feel to be the underdog now? NYA
NYA NYA NYA NYA!
This poll is not affected in any way to my aversion to Emacs. Nope, not one
bit. I am, after all, a saint, because I use Vim. =) I also remembered to
*accidentally* delete the emails so...
Jonathan
* Disclaimer for the tragically humor-impaired: No, I don't hate emacs. No, I
don't hate you. (Well, maybe YOU, but not you.) Yes, I did manipulate the
results, and yes, I am a jerk. Yes, it looks like about 75% of the people
here use emacs. Can't blame them - python mode is really good.
marduk
Besides, how many readers of c.l.p actually use Python?
In article <mailman.100699990...@python.org>, "Jonathan
Gardner" <jga...@alumni.washington.edu> wrote:
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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Jonathan Gardner
> I move for a recount!
>
Yeah, right, I'm on to your scheme! This is what'll happen. First hthe
lawyers will swarm c.l.p, tying up traffic for months to come. Then the
counters will be dropping chads like dandruff. And then what about the
military absentee ballots?
At the end of this mess, the mess that is to be your proposed recount, I
predict the winner will be:
George W. Bush, c.l.p's favorite editor.
Jonathan
Kaden
ALRIGHT! Who's gonna pay for this pepsi ruined keyboard now?!
Peter Hansen
>
> I move for a recount!
>
> Besides, how many readers of c.l.p actually use Python?
What's "Python"?
--
----------------------
Peter Hansen, P.Eng.
pe...@engcorp.com
Paul Winkler
>ALRIGHT! Who's gonna pay for this pepsi ruined keyboard now?!
That's what you get for drinking that crap! I'm currently using
granola with soymilk. It's much more visually disgusting, which helps
enhance the comic experience, but it doesn't corrode things nearly as
badly. It's still a bitch to clean up.
--PW
Jonathan Gardner
>
> That's what you get for drinking that crap! I'm currently using
> granola with soymilk. It's much more visually disgusting, which helps
> enhance the comic experience, but it doesn't corrode things nearly as
> badly. It's still a bitch to clean up.
>
Sounds like my fav-O-rite editor! Great for getting the system moving, if you
know what I mean. ;-) ;-)
Jonathan
Roy Katz
(and I find that Python fits in with my youthful ideals nicely among
others such as Esperanto & being vegan)
I remember a long thread about Esperanto and Python ideals. I rather
enjoyed that. In fact there are some Esperantists here (Bill Harris
of the Python Tutorial in Esperanto, Erik Max Fancis, Peter
Hansen (?), Konrad Hinsen); I wonder if there any vegens here,
too.
it'd also be cool to see the relative age of new pythonistas -- I suspect
that they're young, but this is completely unfounded.
Roey
assiduous JED user, but, more generally, Whatever Works (tm).
"Jürgen A. Erhard"
>>>>> "Jonathan" == Jonathan Gardner <jga...@alumni.washington.edu> wrote:
Tim> You wanna start a flame war? Say you're a Vimmer _and_ a
Tim> Perler! I learned my lesson!
So why do you say it again? ;-)
BTW, do you know how "vimmer" sounds to a German? :-)
Jonathan> * In case you're wondering what editor I use, let me
Jonathan> just say that it works really well with the email client
Jonathan> that sucks less than all the others.
Tim> Yes, I use the mutt+vim combo, myself. You couldn't _pay_ me
Tim> to change.
And in my case... Emacs, since I happened to run across uEmacs in my
Amiga days (first editor that felt *good*). (As if anyone wanted to
know that ;-)
Bye, J
--
Jürgen A. Erhard (juergen...@gmx.net, j...@users.sf.net)
My WebHome: http://jerhard.org
The GNU Project (http://www.gnu.org)
"MCSE: Minesweeper Champion and Solitare Expert"
Jonathan Gardner
> (and I find that Python fits in with my youthful ideals nicely among
> others such as Esperanto & being vegan)
>
Interesting... how does Python and veganism go together? Isn't veganism just
about taking care of the animals and your body? What does Python care about
the animals or your body?
> I remember a long thread about Esperanto and Python ideals. I rather
> enjoyed that. In fact there are some Esperantists here (Bill Harris
> of the Python Tutorial in Esperanto, Erik Max Fancis, Peter
> Hansen (?), Konrad Hinsen); I wonder if there any vegens here,
> too.
>
Python and Esperanto: Esperanto was invented for being a useful, simple
language that could be learned by almost any culture. It tried to limit the
number of expressions for a single idea, making it difficult to express
things that may not be understood or misunderstood. That is the same with
Python. English and Perl (TMTOWTDI), and Esperanto and Python.
Personally, the only ideal I agree with in Python is Practicality. It really
*is* easier, it really *is* useful, and it really *is* debuggable, so why
would you want to use C++ when you have Python? Go with what works, and avoid
what doesn't.
> it'd also be cool to see the relative age of new pythonistas -- I suspect
> that they're young, but this is completely unfounded.
>
They'd have to be. I can't seem to find a place to get paid to work in Python
yet. I can't imagine a guy with 3 kids trying to make a living by programming
python unless he is the rare guy that has a job in it.
Reminds me of the Perl community at first. They were all young, once. Young
rebels, challenging the C/awk/sed paradigm. Young rebels, willing to write a
bit of glue code in a young language developed by a young sysadmin...
Now some of them look like they are advancing in years, and the Perl
community is almost as mainstream as it gets in programming fads.
Jonathan
Tim Hammerquist
> "Tim" == Tim Hammerquist
> "Jonathan" == Jonathan Gardner
>
> Tim> You wanna start a flame war? Say you're a Vimmer _and_ a
> Tim> Perler! I learned my lesson!
>
> So why do you say it again? ;-)
Why? Does it threaten you? ;)
Python has nothing to worry about from Perl, so neither do any of
you.
> BTW, do you know how "vimmer" sounds to a German? :-)
A lot closer to <feemair> (English pronunc.) IIRC. Reminds me of
my thigh bone, but nothing comes to mind. German isn't among the
languages I study.
> Tim> Yes, I use the mutt+vim combo, myself. You couldn't _pay_
> Tim> me to change.
>
> And in my case... Emacs, since I happened to run across uEmacs
> in my Amiga days (first editor that felt *good*). (As if anyone
> wanted to know that ;-)
Right on! FS has saved the day again, granting to each his own
favorite editor!
Tim Hammerquist
--
Any sufficiently advanced technology is compatible with magic.
-- The Doctor, Seeing I
David Eppstein
Jonathan Gardner <jga...@alumni.washington.edu> wrote:
> Interesting... how does Python and veganism go together?
Head Waiter (Michael Palin): This is a vegetarian restaurant only, we
serve no animal flesh of any kind. We're not only proud of that, we're
smug about it. So if you were to come in here asking me to rip open a
small defenseless chicken, so you could chew its skin and eat its
intestines, then I'm afraid I'd have to ask you to leave. Likewise if you
were to ask us to slice the sides of a cow and serve it with small pieces
of its liver... or indeed drain the life blood from a pig before cutting
off one of its legs... or carve the living giblets from a sheep and serve
them with the fresh brains, bowels, guts and spleen of a small rabbit...
WE WOULDN'T DO IT. Not for food anyway.
--
David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science
epps...@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Peter Hansen
>
> Python and Esperanto: Esperanto was invented for being a useful, simple
> language that could be learned by almost any culture. It tried to limit the
> number of expressions for a single idea, making it difficult to express
> things that may not be understood or misunderstood. That is the same with
> Python. English and Perl (TMTOWTDI), and Esperanto and Python.
Esperanto also deliberately drew from the set of words with
the widest international recognition, to make it easier to
learn and more likely to be understood at some level even
at first glance. Python, of course, eschews obfuscation and
favours high readability, gaining it the sometime-label
"executable pseudocode".
> > it'd also be cool to see the relative age of new pythonistas -- I suspect
> > that they're young, but this is completely unfounded.
>
> They'd have to be. I can't seem to find a place to get paid to work in Python
> yet. I can't imagine a guy with 3 kids trying to make a living by programming
> python unless he is the rare guy that has a job in it.
Probably true. Havens like my group (13 of us, most
using Python 95% of the time) are probably quite rare still.
I don't expect that condition to last.
Rather than wait for such a group to find/hire you, however,
you would be well advised to find ways of integrating
Python into the work environment you are already at. I
have yet to see a development environment in which it was
not often necessary to write little utilities to assist
in development, file massagers, and so on. Python is
easily one of the most effective at this, and unlike
otherwise suitable languages it will be hard for anyone
to complain the result is not maintainable. And no
one can stop you from using it on your own machine.
(Well, I've heard of such companies too, but I can't
imagine working for one.)
Oleg Broytmann
> > They'd have to be [young]. I can't seem to find a place to get paid to work in
> > Python yet. I can't imagine a guy with 3 kids trying to make a living
> > by programming python unless he is the rare guy that has a job in it.
I am 34 yo, with exactly 3 children. For more than 5 years I earn living
by Web programing using Python and ONLY Python (I mean Python as a
programming language; of course I use SQL, write JavaScript, but not Perl,
for example.)
Oleg.
--
Oleg Broytmann http://phd.pp.ru/ p...@phd.pp.ru
Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
Bill Bell
> *is* debuggable, so why would you want to use C++ when you have
> Python?
Amen!
> They'd have to be [young]. I can't seem to find a place to get paid to work in
> Python yet. I can't imagine a guy with 3 kids trying to make a living
> by programming python unless he is the rare guy that has a job in it.
AHEM!
I may be a statistical anomaly but I'm almost 55. I now have two
paying Python projects on the go. True, one is funded by a
university. However, the other one is for a purely commercial play.
The president of the company, like me, is a some breed of anarchist.
I plan to use Python to introduce some of the students in the one
and only MBA course that I do to concepts like threads and sockets
this winter. (The code is a lot easier to understand than equivalents
in most other languages.) And I believe I've influenced at least one
guy aged around 20 to take up this fantastic language. (He might
even be reading this when he is supposed to be doing his
schoolwork.)
It's amazing what one can do when one sits in front of a screen and
rests one's canes against a bookcase. :o)
Peace and bliss, eh.
Bill
"It is the time that you have wasted for your rose that makes your rose so important."--St-Exupery
Brett g Porter
"Peter Hansen" <pe...@engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:3C06FE0D...@engcorp.com...
> Jonathan Gardner wrote:
> >
> Rather than wait for such a group to find/hire you, however,
> you would be well advised to find ways of integrating
> Python into the work environment you are already at. I
> have yet to see a development environment in which it was
> not often necessary to write little utilities to assist
> in development, file massagers, and so on. Python is
> easily one of the most effective at this, and unlike
> otherwise suitable languages it will be hard for anyone
> to complain the result is not maintainable. And no
> one can stop you from using it on your own machine.
> (Well, I've heard of such companies too, but I can't
> imagine working for one.)
occasional mention of how cool Python is (and why that's the case) have
started getting others at work to check it out.
Of course, being able to deliver an inhouse tool written during a single
lunchbreak that someone else had estimated as taking a few days doesn't
hurt, either. Python is now in my cow orkers' minds when suggesting
solutions to clients.
--
// Brett g Porter * Lead Engineer, Development Practices
// BgPorter @ artlogic . com * http://www.artlogic.com
// Art & Logic * Custom software solutions for hardware products
// Windows * MacOS * Embedded Systems
Steven D. Majewski
On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Oleg Broytmann wrote:
> > Jonathan Gardner <jga...@alumni.washington.edu> wrote, in part:
> > > They'd have to be [young]. I can't seem to find a place to get paid to work in
> > > Python yet. I can't imagine a guy with 3 kids trying to make a living
> > > by programming python unless he is the rare guy that has a job in it.
>
> I am 34 yo, with exactly 3 children. For more than 5 years I earn living
> by Web programing using Python and ONLY Python (I mean Python as a
> programming language; of course I use SQL, write JavaScript, but not Perl,
> for example.)
I'm 49, omnivorous, married, with 3 children, 2 dogs and 1 cat,
programming mostly in Python, C and Lisp, with a little dabbling
in Java, C++ and Objective-C. And all those youngsters I met at
the very first Python workshop are all about 10 years older now.
-- Steve Majewski
Oleg Broytmann
:)))
I am sure one does not need to be a little boy to be a good programmer.
(I am pretty sure it is other way around - those youngsters need to have a
good learning before doing Real Job :)
Jeff Hinrichs
> paying Python projects on the go. True, one is funded by a
> university. However, the other one is for a purely commercial play.
> The president of the company, like me, is a some breed of anarchist.
programming in python for 3 months at my day job.
We were an all MS shop but were looking for a way around the beast. It
started with DNS servers on Linux and then we ripped out exchange and
replaced it with Cyrus/Exim. More upheaval yet to come as we rip MS out bit
by bit.
Then I came across a cool python app on source forge
(http://edna.sourceforge.net/) It was the app that made me take a look at
python. The more I looked the more I liked. I haven't fired up VB in those
3 months either and management is pleased with the results.
I've built an XML catalog generator that uploads are inventory database to
Ariba. This saved a big customer from getting away and brought in a couple
new ones to boot. Add to that a number of boring db reports and customer
mailer programs.
I am quite confident that Python is going to see at least a small boom in
the next 8 - 12 months with others like me. This is a good thing. Small
and mid-sized businesses represent a significant portion of the computer
industry and they are definitely not happy with Microsoft. Change is
coming.
-Jeff
Roy Katz
> Interesting... how does Python and veganism go together? Isn't veganism just
> about taking care of the animals and your body? What does Python care about
> the animals or your body?
Well I feel that the common theme among all these ideas is control. I
want more control than the average Joe over things like how I speak
(Esperanto can be quite expressive), program (python), compute (GPL), and
eat (that's why I'm vegan). Moreover, Python, Esperanto, GPL and Veganism
(imho) are all particularly *effective* solutions to their respective
problems. They're elegant, consistent and simple in philosophy. That's
about it. That makes sense to me; and to paraphrase your words, I tend to
"go with what works" for me :). I'll stop ranting now (otherwise, too many
people start cracking vegetarian jokes and miss the point -- really, how
long till someone here'll crack a joke... come on guys, don't keep me
waiting, you know you're out there).
> Python and Esperanto: Esperanto was invented for being a useful, simple
> language that could be learned by almost any culture.
Bingo
> It tried to limit the
> number of expressions for a single idea, making it difficult to express
> things that may not be understood or misunderstood.
Sorta-Bingo.
I would phrase it like this: Esperanto tries to make it easier to express
ideas which are hard to express in other languages. But there /are/
indeed different ways of expressing the same idea.
And why should Python be any different?? Sure there is only one way to
open a file (open()) and (up until recently, borkborkbork>>) one way
to write to a file. BUT the fact that we can express a convolution
integrals in a myriad of ways should be proof enough that even though
syntax is singular, the expression of the idea is indeed plural.
> Python. English and Perl (TMTOWTDI), and Esperanto and Python.
oh definately, I agree 100% on that.
> They'd have to be. I can't seem to find a place to get paid to work in Python
> yet. I can't imagine a guy with 3 kids trying to make a living by programming
> python unless he is the rare guy that has a job in it.
hey, Google offers jobs for Python programmers on Linux
workstations.. :)
> Reminds me of the Perl community at first. They were all young, once. Young
> rebels, challenging the C/awk/sed paradigm. Young rebels, willing to write a
> bit of glue code in a young language developed by a young sysadmin...
>
> Now some of them look like they are advancing in years, and the Perl
> community is almost as mainstream as it gets in programming fads.
well they got lax imho. Two many bolted on features, just like Python a
year from now if everyone and their dog has their way (borkborkbork>>).
Roey.
obnoxious Computer Engineering junior
University of Maryland @ College Park,
USA.
Roy Katz
> Head Waiter (Michael Palin): This is a vegetarian restaurant only, we
[snip]
ah, cool, the promised veg*n crack. There's always one to follow up :)
Another side question: is there any page listing what kind of crazy
patches people have applied to their local distributions of Python?
(things such as ternary operators, stuff from PEPs that were rejected,
etc..)
Roey
Alan Winston
> that they're young, but this is completely unfounded.
51 here.
I happily switched to Algol as my programming language of choice about 1967,
seeing its major advantages over the Fortran and assembler ("mnemonic
plague") I had been using previously. I've happily (occasionally less
happily) learned and used many, many other languages in the intervening
years. My only real problem with Python is that I should have taken a closer
look at it years ago, instead of just writing it off as "yet another Unix
scripting language."
Now if you mean folks who will ONLY code in Python, them folks have gotta be
young. And it is quite possible that old hat Unixers who had long since
become comfortable with Perl aren't as likely to change.
But I hope that among those of us for whom Unix was just one more operating
system when it came along (albeit better than most), a little more
flexibility obtains. (I think Unix was about my tenth OS, I do vaguely
remember that MSDOS was either my 20th or 21st and that IBSYS was my first.
I had a calico cat that I named IBSYS.)
At this point I doubt I could name even half the languages I have programmed
in (I do remember that Focal followed C -- I may be unique in that).
Languages are tools. Learning a new language should be a routine part of
maintaining one's acumen as a programmer. Cf. Hunt & Thomas, _The Pragmatic
Programmer_, p12: "Learn at least one new language every year."
Python is now my primary language of choice. I recommend it to other
programmers. I have been assuming that that might make me a Pythonista.
But if being a Pythonista means refusing to program in anything but Python,
then yes, those folks are probably young. Very young. Another respondent
indicated that there aren't a lot of job openings out there for Python
programmers. Yes, I suspect that if you answer "What do you program in?"
with "Python," that that will indeed hurt you. But if you answer "C++, C,
Java, of course, some other languages, but I prefer Python since it is so
much more cost-effective," I would expect the interview to go well.
Alan Winston
Seattle
Steve Lamb
<jga...@alumni.washington.edu> wrote:
> They'd have to be. I can't seem to find a place to get paid to work in
> Python yet. I can't imagine a guy with 3 kids trying to make a living by
> programming python unless he is the rare guy that has a job in it.
What does 3 kids have to do with it? You are aware that 25% of the female
population in the US these days does not and will not have children? Why
mention 3 rugrats at all? Just say "I can't imagine someone trying to make a
living..."
--
Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
To email: Don't despair! | -- Lenny Nero, Strange Days
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------
RPM1
"Alan Winston" <awin...@scn.org> wrote in message
news:9udn1g$64c$1...@brokaw.wa.com...
> > it'd also be cool to see the relative age of new pythonistas -- I
suspect
> > that they're young, but this is completely unfounded.
>
37
I make my living coding C. I have recently begun coding all my own projects
in Python. I also write utilities at work in Python that other programmers
end up 'borrowing'. I've found that I can whip up some cool utilities in
Python that could have been coded in C but it wouldn't have been worth the
effort. For example, something that only takes 45 minutes to code in Python
would probably have taken 3 or 4 hours in C. One example, is a utility that
parses a C .h file to get the structure of records in a C binary file, and
then reads in the records and prints them out in readable format. What made
this hard to code in C was the fact that our customers have different
structures and different byte alignments. With Python, I just give it the
name of the data file, the name of the .h file and the alignment and it
spits out the data with no problem.
My brother ,(who's mentioned in the thank you's of "Learning Python"),
tipped me off to Python back in 1996, but I never got around to doing much
with it until about a year ago.
Patrick Mullhaupt
Tim Hammerquist
> (and I find that Python fits in with my youthful ideals nicely among
> others such as Esperanto & being vegan)
Is this a 90's thing, where your idealistic fantasies and your
programming LOC must be compatible? I take it Lisp and Smalltalk
went out with polyester, then? I've heard many people say Smalltalk
embodies freedom better than any other language.
OTOH, as a vegan, perhaps you can tell me: what's "organic coffee"?
> it'd also be cool to see the relative age of new pythonistas -- I
> suspect that they're young, but this is completely unfounded.
My opinion has always been that new Pythonistas have found Python the
same way I did: by keeping their ears open. I heard about Python when
its virtues were extolled in comp.lang.perl.misc, so one should never
judge their enemies too harshly. ;)
Tim Hammerquist
--
But the price of getting what you want
is getting what you once wanted.
-- Morpheus, The Sandman
Arthur Siegel
>> that they're young, but this is completely unfounded.
[snip]
>Now if you mean folks who will ONLY code in Python, them folks have gotta be
>young.
David Lees
close to a year ago, but have programmed in it sporatically(sp.). Great
language.
debl
<snip>
cruciatuz
<badenglish>
I just reply because i decided to lower the average "python-user-age" ;)
I am 18.
A few uninteresting things about me (clever people should skip that):
Python is one of my hobbies and i don't earn money with it (i'm still going to
school). Python is great if i want to code little snippets of code which
will do interesting things for me. that's my case, python is great for most
other (bigger) projects as well (zope, etc.). I came to python because i hated Java
and C++ and Delphi and Basic because of their weaknesses. As a beginner
you're directly confronted with theses weaknesses!
Then i did something in Perl, which was cool. But ... you know what Perl
is like: sometimes it's like Perl is making fun of you. It was like Perl
would say: "haha, you'll never learn all about me and you'll forget
after one week what this code is was used for"
I discovered python:
and it was a language like i'd have designed it myself. I really like
everything about it. am not a skilled coder, i have to admit. but i'd
like to learn programming in a professional way to earn money with it.
i hope i can do this with python, because i am idealistic about python
and idealistic about computers as well :)
</badenglish>
--
Stefan Antoni
----------------------------
Mon Dez 3 12:59:18 EST 2001
Quinn Dunkan
>And in my case... Emacs, since I happened to run across uEmacs in my
>Amiga days (first editor that felt *good*). (As if anyone wanted to
>know that ;-)
vim was originally an amiga editor, I think. Or at least had ports early on.
The first time I ran across vim was version 1.something on a Fred Fish CD, and
I had been using uEmacs at the time :)
Tim Hammerquist
IIRC, Bram's forward to the New Rider's Vim book mentions that Bram
himself was using Amiga when he decided he wanted to use vi. The rest,
as they say, is history.
Tim Hammerquist
--
Obviously I was either onto something, or on something.
-- Larry Wall on the creation of Perl
Andrei Kulakov
>> it'd also be cool to see the relative age of new pythonistas -- I suspect
>> that they're young, but this is completely unfounded.
I'm 22. Python is the only language I'd code for pleasure, but it might
be just that I don't have enough experience coding perl or c.
- Andrei
--
Cymbaline: intelligent learning mp3 player - python, linux, console.
get it at: cy.silmarill.org
Grant Edwards
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:38:00 +0900, Jonathan Gardner
>
>> Python yet. I can't imagine a guy with 3 kids trying to make a living by
>> programming python unless he is the rare guy that has a job in it.
>
> What does 3 kids have to do with it? You are aware that 25% of the female
> population in the US these days does not and will not have children? Why
> mention 3 rugrats at all?
In my experience people with children tend to make more
conservative choices with respect to jobs: they'll choose a
less "risky" job in order to provide guaranteed income and
benefits for their dependants. People without children are
free to choose more "speculative" options where there is a
higher risk of intermittent income or health benefits.
For example: I have no dependants. I can actually live off of
unemployment benefits (I can pay rent, pay bills, pay for COBRA
benefits and have enough left over to go golfing once a week).
Therefore, choosing a career path that might involve more "fun"
or higher peak pay but also risk periods of unemployment is a
more viable option for me than it would be for somebody with
three children to support.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I want to read my new
at poem about pork brains and
visi.com outer space...
Grant Edwards
> Roy Katz <ka...@Glue.umd.edu> graced us by uttering:
>> (and I find that Python fits in with my youthful ideals nicely among
>> others such as Esperanto & being vegan)
>
> Is this a 90's thing, where your idealistic fantasies and your
> programming LOC must be compatible? I take it Lisp and Smalltalk
> went out with polyester, then? I've heard many people say Smalltalk
> embodies freedom better than any other language.
>
> OTOH, as a vegan, perhaps you can tell me: what's "organic coffee"?
If I recall my chemistry correctly, "organic" refers to
chemical compounds involving carbon, espcially things with
carbon-carbon bonds forming chains/rings.
Stuff like gasoline, plastics, nerve gas, that sort of thing.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! RELATIVES!!
at
visi.com
Tim Hammerquist
> Tim Hammerquist wrote:
[ snip ]
> > what's "organic coffee"?
>
> If I recall my chemistry correctly, "organic" refers to
> chemical compounds involving carbon, espcially things with
> carbon-carbon bonds forming chains/rings.
>
> Stuff like gasoline, plastics, nerve gas, that sort of thing.
LOL!
Tim Hammerquist
--
If you had two people with a motive, and one of them
was alive, who would you arrest?
-- Inspector Boot, "Theater of Blood"
Jonathan Gardner
> If I recall my chemistry correctly, "organic" refers to
> chemical compounds involving carbon, espcially things with
> carbon-carbon bonds forming chains/rings.
>
> Stuff like gasoline, plastics, nerve gas, that sort of thing.
Kind of makes you wonder what us non-vegan people eat...
Jonathan
Tim Hammerquist
Meat? <g>
As the great Mark Twain said:
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger."
...and Denis Leary:
"/Not/ eating meat is a decision.
/Eating/ meat is an instict!"
...and Pink Floyd:
"How can you have any pudding
if you don't eat your meat?!"
> Jonathan
Tim Hammerquist
--
scanf() is evil.
bougle gluce
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.011129...@z.glue.umd.edu...
> Right on. I'm vegan so I drink soymilk anyway.
>
> (and I find that Python fits in with my youthful ideals nicely among
> others such as Esperanto & being vegan)
>
> enjoyed that. In fact there are some Esperantists here (Bill Harris
> of the Python Tutorial in Esperanto, Erik Max Fancis, Peter
> Hansen (?), Konrad Hinsen); I wonder if there any vegens here,
> too.
>
> it'd also be cool to see the relative age of new pythonistas -- I suspect
> that they're young, but this is completely unfounded.
>
>
>
> assiduous JED user, but, more generally, Whatever Works (tm).
>
>
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Paul Winkler wrote:
>
> > On 29 Nov 2001 04:08:30 GMT, Kaden <sf...@mailandnews.com> wrote:
> > >ALRIGHT! Who's gonna pay for this pepsi ruined keyboard now?!
> >
> > That's what you get for drinking that crap! I'm currently using
> > granola with soymilk. It's much more visually disgusting, which helps
> > enhance the comic experience, but it doesn't corrode things nearly as
> > badly. It's still a bitch to clean up.
> >
> > --PW
I'm young, a vegetarian, and I like python. there's a connection somewhere
but I'm not sure what it is.
Ville Vainio
> like to learn programming in a professional way to earn money with it.
Get a "normal" programming job, and just start doing some things in
python. People will probably see how fast you can crank out good code
with it. Also, because python programming is fun, you can implement
features that would be too boring to implement in C++ & likes.
As for the poll: age == 25.
--
Ville Vainio - http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio - ICQ #115524762
Wild geese have no intention to cast a reflection
Water has no mind to assume their form
Peter Wang
> Then i did something in Perl, which was cool. But ... you know what Perl
> is like: sometimes it's like Perl is making fun of you. It was like Perl
> would say: "haha, you'll never learn all about me and you'll forget
> after one week what this code is was used for"
HAH! this is *perfect*! i never fully understood why i was so
uncomfortable coding Perl, but that feeling of being the butt end of a
language designer's joke is a good description.
</perl-bash-mode>
-peter
Stephen Ferg
54
My pre-Python programming experience: PL/I, Cobol, Visual Basic,
PowerBuilder, and REXX. IBM MVS, DOS, Windows, no Unix.
It looks like many new Pythonistas are older, rather than younger.
When you are younger, your whole universe consists of the language
that you learned first -- it takes a while to learn that the universe
contains many, many languages to choose from. Then, when you realize
you have a choice, it takes a while to find Python in the welter of
alternatives. And finally, it is only after you have been around a
while, and seen the alternatives, that you can really appreciate how
much better Python is than any of the alternatives.
Wojtek Walczak
** that you should be stupid too - do NOT toppost!!!
Dnia 14 Dec 2001 07:14:25 -0800, Stephen Ferg napisał(a):
>My pre-Python programming experience: PL/I, Cobol, Visual Basic,
>PowerBuilder, and REXX. IBM MVS, DOS, Windows, no Unix.
I've also touched C++, Lisp, Haskell, PHP, ADA, but
only for a while, when I was looking for something
to learn after C and Perl. I've chosen Python :>
>It looks like many new Pythonistas are older, rather than younger.
I'm breaking that rule, since I'm 17 :)
I'm programming in Python for about a year,
but at first it was only a short meeting,
only since Python 2.1c2 it's love :>
>When you are younger, your whole universe consists of the language
>that you learned first -- it takes a while to learn that the universe
>contains many, many languages to choose from.
Not if you are able to read opinions of people
with skills better than yours.
On one of the polish news groups Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk
was often recommending Python.
I trusted in his rights and now I'm here ;)
--
[ Wojtek gminick Walczak ][ http://hacker.pl/gminick/ ]
[ gminick (at) hacker.pl ][ gminick (at) klub.chip.pl ]
Kirill Miazine
> My age at the time that I discovered Python (about a year ago):
> 54
>
> My pre-Python programming experience: PL/I, Cobol, Visual Basic,
> PowerBuilder, and REXX. IBM MVS, DOS, Windows, no Unix.
>
> It looks like many new Pythonistas are older, rather than younger.
I'm 19. Programming Python for only one week (and already sublcassing
and doing other "advanced" things :). I've using Perl for 2 years and a
little bit C.
> When you are younger, your whole universe consists of the language
> that you learned first -- it takes a while to learn that the universe
> contains many, many languages to choose from. Then, when you realize
> you have a choice, it takes a while to find Python in the welter of
> alternatives. And finally, it is only after you have been around a
> while, and seen the alternatives, that you can really appreciate how
> much better Python is than any of the alternatives.
I agree. I'm happy I discovered Python so early :-)
--
Kirill
Bengt Richter
>> it'd also be cool to see the relative age of new pythonistas -- I suspect
>> that they're young, but this is completely unfounded.
>
>51 here.
>
What I wonder about is the dev group, starting with Guido and Tim ;-)
Mark Hammond
Guido is a few years older than me, and Tim a few years older than him :)
But-my-age-is-secret ly,
Mark.
Peter Hansen
Guido is actually only seven, and Tim is nine. The thing is,
with a time machine, you can go back in time, tie up your
younger self in a closet, and create cool programming languages
in your own name after reading all about it in the net archives.
These evil deeds could be stopped if only the PSU
Dan Compton
I started coding Python about a week ago but began coding 2 years ago
with C++ (in actuality it was C using iostream and some other C++
libraries :-P) and then later learned C itself and true C++. I
expirimented with Java (and disliked it's feature-less nature,
although they recently took after C++ with templates) and C# (don't
even remind me, please!) but obviously didn't approve of them. I
tried some Perl but found it to be way too much of an intimidating
mess of syntax and modules. I also learned Tcl and found it to be a
better alternative to Perl but not quite "there" if you know what I
mean, although I loved Tk (and it's great that other languages can use
Tk!). So now I come upon Python and it looks like it's going to stay.
I use a laptop with linux (no internet) and a desktop with windows
(with internet and burner) and am glad to say that everything works
well cross-platform. I have already interfaced some of my C code with
Python on Windows but since I really HATE VC++ (no, it does not
compile C++, it compiles some made up stuff MS calls C++), I'm going
to do more of that in Linux. I think Python is great because it is
well designed (unlike Perl), it has many features and modules (unlike
Tcl, but I might be wrong about that due to ignorance), and it has
great integration of C and C++! I hope to be able to create modules
to be used by the entire Python community sometime.
Dan
Kirill Miazine
> Tk!). So now I come upon Python and it looks like it's going to stay.
Me too. I used Perl for a quite long project (2 years, still ongoing).
Now I quit there and start in a new job and Python is the language of
choice in that company. So nice :-)
> I use a laptop with linux (no internet) and a desktop with windows
> (with internet and burner) and am glad to say that everything works
> well cross-platform. I have already interfaced some of my C code with
I still didn't try anything outside OpenBSD. Although I will probably
try to run some of my apps on Windows some day.
> Python on Windows but since I really HATE VC++ (no, it does not
> compile C++, it compiles some made up stuff MS calls C++), I'm going
> to do more of that in Linux. I think Python is great because it is
> well designed (unlike Perl), it has many features and modules (unlike
You can't say Perl is badly designed just because you found "it to be
way too much of an intimidating mess of syntax and modules".
> Tcl, but I might be wrong about that due to ignorance), and it has
> great integration of C and C++! I hope to be able to create modules
> to be used by the entire Python community sometime.
> Dan
--
Kirill
Copyleft Software AS
Tim Hammerquist
> I tried some Perl but found it to be way too much of an intimidating
> mess of syntax and modules.
If I'd cast Perl aside when you did, I'd have seriously sold myself
short. Perl is a valuable tool, ideal for different tasks than Python,
but valuable nonetheless.
> I also learned Tcl and found it to be a better alternative to Perl
I don't know if that was a joke, but it gave me a good laugh, FWIW.
> if you know what I mean,
Less and less with each sentence.
> I think Python is great because it is well designed (unlike Perl),
Wait, didn't you give up on Perl before you knew it well enough to make
that kind of statement?
> (...but I might be wrong about that due to ignorance),
You might.
Tim Hammerquist
--
In Devon, Connecticut, it is unlawful to walk backwards after sunset.
maxm
Previous languages are:
Pascal
A nice simple language wich had a good dos enviroment. Really snappy.
Cobol (a little)
Just to try it out.
Modula-2
Bought a damn expensive comiler as a student,
but there was no good documentation, so that was a drag.
Lingo
The almost language in Director
c
Just got my toes wet on the Amiga/PC
VBScript
Years of writing dynamic websites.
JavaScript
A few more years of writing websites. Definitely more pleasureable
than VBScript which is horrid.
Java
Way to much code for way to little work.
The libraries kept changing to fast.
Bothersome and slow compile cycle.
Perl
well I fell for the hype, fell in love with regular espressions.
and in disgust with the syntax for lists and dicts.
Python
Love it every second. Every day spend writing Python is a fun day.
And I hardly use reg-ex's any more :-)
No messing arround with the language, just writing code, trying out
ideas,
and refactoring all the time because its so easy.
I will try to get more up to speed in c, so that I can extend Python better.
I havn't really made my mind up about c++. Most people seem to find it to
hard to learn, and I also belive more in the Python/c combo as the way to
go.
But one of my interrests is algorithmic composition, and Python definitely
has a lack of good media libraries. Well they will get her sooner or later,
or I will write them myself. But for my bread and butter webstuff Python is
far the best choice on any platform.
Python is clean simple and elegant. So unless a better language shows up, my
answer in 30 years will probably be ...
"Pushing towards 67 here. And I LOVE ..."
regards Max M
Kenny Tilton
> that kind of statement?
Intelligence is all about dealing with partial information. Experience
is all about needing less and less information all the time to make
accurate judgments.
Got those from fortune cookies, FWIW.
kenny
clinisys
Tim Hammerquist
> Tim Hammerquist wrote:
> > Wait, didn't you give up on Perl before you knew it well enough
> > to make that kind of statement?
>
> Intelligence is all about dealing with partial information.
s/Intelligence/Life/
Cheers!
Tim Hammerquist
--
But the price of getting what you want is getting what you once wanted.
-- Morpheus, The Sandman
Ville Vainio
> > I think Python is great because it is well designed (unlike Perl),
>
> Wait, didn't you give up on Perl before you knew it well enough to make
> that kind of statement?
One really doesn't have to know all that much about perl to make that
statement - reading "Programming Perl" or some other perl book is
enough.
Ditto with TCL. When I see 8 backslashes in a row, I look elsewhere
;-).
François Pinard
> Tim Hammerquist <t...@vegeta.ath.cx> writes:
> Ditto with TCL. When I see 8 backslashes in a row, I look elsewhere
> ;-).
One may be rebuked by surface aspects, indeed. But seriously, we have to
go deeper than that before asserting that a language is badly designed.
> > > I think Python is great because it is well designed (unlike Perl),
> >
> > Wait, didn't you give up on Perl before you knew it well enough to make
> > that kind of statement?
> One really doesn't have to know all that much about perl to make that
> statement - reading "Programming Perl" or some other perl book is enough.
Even if I prefer Python to Perl, I would never even think that Perl is not
well designed. When I was using Perl, as a user (not as a reader of books
about it :-), I found that Perl allowed me to quickly write my code, it
was full of good ideas, and I felt the language quite fulfilled its promises.
On the other hand, Perl was probably not designed according to my own tastes,
and it is true that Python fits my tastes much better; the gained comfort
alone is the source of some proficiency. But not sharing my tastes does not
make something necessarily bad. And besides, wandering around a bit with an
opened mind allows someone to improve its culture and to evolve his tastes.
--
François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard
Tim Hammerquist
> Even if I prefer Python to Perl, I would never even think that Perl
> is not well designed. When I was using Perl, as a user (not as
> a reader of books about it :-), I found that Perl allowed me to
> quickly write my code, it was full of good ideas, and I felt the
> language quite fulfilled its promises.
>
> On the other hand, Perl was probably not designed according to my
> own tastes, and it is true that Python fits my tastes much better;
> the gained comfort alone is the source of some proficiency. But
> not sharing my tastes does not make something necessarily bad. And
> besides, wandering around a bit with an opened mind allows someone
> to improve its culture and to evolve his tastes.
Thank you. I could not have said this better (or more diplomatically)
myself, as I'm also an avid Perl hacker and tend to get defensive. Nor
can I help my bias. Perl and Python both have very different
personalities, but it's these differences that make them both equally
valuable.
Tim Hammerquist
--
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
Steven Rumbalski
<snip>
> Ditto with TCL. When I see 8 backslashes in a row, I look elsewhere
Ditto with Python. When I see lines of code terminated by nothing but
whitespace, I look elsewhere.
asthetic-shock-a-poor-judge-ly yours,
Steven Rumbalski
Tim Hammerquist
> is not well designed. When I was using Perl, as a user (not as
> a reader of books about it :-), I found that Perl allowed me to
> quickly write my code, it was full of good ideas, and I felt the
> language quite fulfilled its promises.
>
> On the other hand, Perl was probably not designed according to my
> own tastes, and it is true that Python fits my tastes much better;
> the gained comfort alone is the source of some proficiency. But
> not sharing my tastes does not make something necessarily bad. And
> besides, wandering around a bit with an opened mind allows someone
> to improve its culture and to evolve his tastes.
Thank you. I could not have said this better (or more diplomatically)
myself, as I'm also an avid Perl hacker and tend to get defensive. Nor
can I help my bias. Perl and Python both have very different
personalities, but it's these differences that make them both equally
valuable.
Tim Hammerquist
--
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
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From: Tim Hammerquist <t...@vegeta.ath.cx>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
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François Pinard
> Tim Hammerquist <t...@vegeta.ath.cx> writes:
> Ditto with TCL. When I see 8 backslashes in a row, I look elsewhere
> ;-).
One may be rebuked by surface aspects, indeed. But seriously, we have to
go deeper than that before asserting that a language is badly designed.
> > > I think Python is great because it is well designed (unlike Perl),
> >
> > Wait, didn't you give up on Perl before you knew it well enough to make
> > that kind of statement?
> One really doesn't have to know all that much about perl to make that
> statement - reading "Programming Perl" or some other perl book is enough.
Even if I prefer Python to Perl, I would never even think that Perl is not
well designed. When I was using Perl, as a user (not as a reader of books
about it :-), I found that Perl allowed me to quickly write my code, it
was full of good ideas, and I felt the language quite fulfilled its promises.
On the other hand, Perl was probably not designed according to my own tastes,
and it is true that Python fits my tastes much better; the gained comfort
alone is the source of some proficiency. But not sharing my tastes does not
make something necessarily bad. And besides, wandering around a bit with an
opened mind allows someone to improve its culture and to evolve his tastes.
--
François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard
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From: pin...@iro.umontreal.ca (=?iso-8859-1?q?Fran=E7ois?= Pinard)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
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Ville Vainio
> > I think Python is great because it is well designed (unlike Perl),
>
> Wait, didn't you give up on Perl before you knew it well enough to make
> that kind of statement?
One really doesn't have to know all that much about perl to make that
statement - reading "Programming Perl" or some other perl book is
enough.
Ditto with TCL. When I see 8 backslashes in a row, I look elsewhere
;-).
--
Ville Vainio - http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio - ICQ #115524762
Wild geese have no intention to cast a reflection
Water has no mind to assume their form
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From: Ville Vainio <vva...@karhu.tp.spt.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
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Steven Rumbalski
<snip>
> Ditto with TCL. When I see 8 backslashes in a row, I look elsewhere
Ditto with Python. When I see lines of code terminated by nothing but
whitespace, I look elsewhere.
asthetic-shock-a-poor-judge-ly yours,
Steven Rumbalski
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Kenny Tilton
> that kind of statement?
Intelligence is all about dealing with partial information. Experience
is all about needing less and less information all the time to make
accurate judgments.
Got those from fortune cookies, FWIW.
kenny
clinisys
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From: Kenny Tilton <kti...@nyc.rr.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
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Tim Hammerquist
> > to make that kind of statement?
>
> Intelligence is all about dealing with partial information.
s/Intelligence/Life/
Cheers!
Tim Hammerquist
--
But the price of getting what you want is getting what you once wanted.
-- Morpheus, The Sandman
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From: Tim Hammerquist <t...@vegeta.ath.cx>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
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Ville Vainio
> > Ditto with TCL. When I see 8 backslashes in a row, I look elsewhere
> > ;-).
>
> One may be rebuked by surface aspects, indeed. But seriously, we have to
Number of backslashes is not a surface aspect - it shows how much you
have to escape stuff. Excessive escaping makes things
unpredictable. It's not at all about aesthetics.
> Even if I prefer Python to Perl, I would never even think that Perl is not
> well designed. When I was using Perl, as a user (not as a reader of books
> about it :-), I found that Perl allowed me to quickly write my code, it
> was full of good ideas, and I felt the language quite fulfilled its promises.
I also thought that Perl initially felt neat, when doing simple
programs with it. But reading some books shows how dirty it actually
is. One doesn't really know all the evils of perl before reading books
about it.
> make something necessarily bad. And besides, wandering around a bit with an
> opened mind allows someone to improve its culture and to evolve his tastes.
Yes, that is definitely true: I'm glad I have taken cursory glance
over several very different, "rare" languages (functional, OO,
procedural), but I am less glad about the time I took to learn perl. I
mean, I gave the language a chance, and implemented several scripts
(cgi or not) with it, but I wish I didn't. It's kinda like the BASIC
many of us learned as kids, though I'm not sure whether the damage to
the brain is as severe.
For "real" programming, that is. I still use perl as awk&sed++. Which
is the way it was meant to be used in the first place. "Bad design"
can just mean a design with different goals.
Peter Wang
point taken, but bad example. the Hamming distance between 7 and 8
backslashes is very small to a programmer but very large to a
computer, whereas programmer and computer will generally agree as to
whether whitespace is terminal.
-peter
PM
> well designed. When I was using Perl, as a user (not as a reader of books
> about it :-), I found that Perl allowed me to quickly write my code, it
> was full of good ideas, and I felt the language quite fulfilled its promises.
>
Perl seemed to me to be well designed but not 'easily accessible'.
There's an overhead to Perl. I found that I always was aware of the
fact that I was 'programming in Perl'. In Python, I usually am only
vaguely aware that I'm 'programming' as opposed to just thinking.
Just my $0.02,
Patrick
Jeff Polaski
As a web programmer I've done a lot of scripting, so I really tend to
favor scripting languages.
I've been programming in Python for about four years. IIRC I
discovered it through a slashdot post. At the time I was using Perl to
maintain web sites for Rockwell's Space Systems Division (soon after
bought by Boeing). The external site had about 25,000 documents, and
the intranet had about 200,000 documents. There was no way I could
have maintained that site without using a scripting language. I tried
Perl first, and Perl ran a lot faster, but I found Python was a lot
easier to maintain in the long run. Most importantly, I just enjoyed
programming in Python more than Perl. There were far fewer
"surprises". Everything seemed to just work like I thought it should.
Python certainly wasn't as efficient as Perl, though. Some of the
Python scripts might take an hour longer to run, but it wasn't a big
deal as I could just run them from a separate machine while I did
other things.
While Python isn't my main programming language, I write Python about
an hour a day. I'll use it for many different things: data munging,
prototyping, etc... I'm constantly writing scripts to make "process
improvements". Right now I have a script that verifies transactions
and makes sure files get exported correctly. It's a fairly small
script, but it provides important assurance that everything went O.K.
with our web applications. Also, I use Python a lot to automate
repetitive coding in ColdFusion or Java. A lot of what I do sits on
top of a database. It's easy to write a script that generates most of
the code. It's faster than I can do by hand, and more consistent.
Right now most of my programming is done in ColdFusion and Java. I've
used also used Pascal, Object Pascal (Delphi), C, C++, SQL, ASP, VB,
JavaScript, and XML. By far my favorite language is Python.
Please don't construe this the wrong way. I don't want this to come
off as language bigotry. I have programs written in Perl and C++ that
I'm working on now, just for myself, and, all in all, I enjoy them.
I'm also teaching myself Scheme (through The Little Schemer*). But
when I just want to program for fun, I reach for Python first.
*A previous posts mentioned The Pragmatic Programmer: "Learn at least
one new language every year." I agree. Scheme is my choice, this year.
Then, maybe, Lisp.
Jeff Polaski
ayushp...@gmail.com
> Hello,
> I'm looking for an editor for Python.I' m interested it works on Windows.Can
> anybody help me?
>
> Thank you
>
> Manuel
Jean-Michel Pichavant
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=python+editor+windows
Otherwise, must of the newcomers will be pleased with
http://notepad-plus-plus.org/
Ideally, try to use an editor that will allow you to edit any type of code, python or anything else.
JM
PS : you could also have searched this archive, this subject has been already discussed... a lot.
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE:
The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Douglas Duhaime
Komodo: http://www.activestate.com/komodo-ide?gclid=COHE4eLj7rsCFQISMwodOUQAiw
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=python+editor+windows
Otherwise, must of the newcomers will be pleased with
http://notepad-plus-plus.org/
Ideally, try to use an editor that will allow you to edit any type of code, python or anything else.
JM
PS : you could also have searched this archive, this subject has been already discussed... a lot.
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE:
The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
--
Jean-Michel Pichavant
----- Original Message -----
> I've been pleased with Komodo, and certainly prefer it over
> Notepad++.
> Komodo:
> http://www.activestate.com/komodo-ide?gclid=COHE4eLj7rsCFQISMwodOUQAiw
Komodo is an IDE and costs 385$. I certainly expect it to better than notepad++.
JM
Alister
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>> I've been pleased with Komodo, and certainly prefer it over Notepad++.
>
>> Komodo:
>> http://www.activestate.com/komodo-ide?gclid=COHE4eLj7rsCFQISMwodOUQAiw
>
> Komodo is an IDE and costs 385$. I certainly expect it to better than
> notepad++.
>
> JM
>
cheaper if your price is correct :-) )
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE:
>
> The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may
> also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify
> the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other
> person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
> medium. Thank you.
--
Harriet's Dining Observation:
In every restaurant, the hardness of the butter pats
increases in direct proportion to the softness of the bread.
Jean-Michel Pichavant
> >
> > The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and
> > may
> > also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> > notify
> > the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
> > other
> > person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in
> > any
> > medium. Thank you.
>
> too late you have sent this to a public forum
No pb with that, the python list is the intended recipient :)
I tried to negotiate this with my IT guys, but it looks like it's now mandatory, something related to being in the USA stock market.
I have no way to remove it, it's added by the email server. I apologise for the noise.
JM
Joel Goldstick
> > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE:
> >
> > The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and
> > may
> > also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> > notify
> > the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
> > other
> > person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in
> > any
> > medium. Thank you.
>
> too late you have sent this to a public forum
No pb with that, the python list is the intended recipient :)
I tried to negotiate this with my IT guys, but it looks like it's now mandatory, something related to being in the USA stock market.
I have no way to remove it, it's added by the email server. I apologise for the noise.
JM
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE:
The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick
<jeanm...@sequans.com> wrote:
> I tried to negotiate this with my IT guys, but it looks like it's now mandatory, something related to being in the USA stock market.
> I have no way to remove it, it's added by the email server. I apologise for the noise.
that. Simply, instead of signing your letters with “JM” yourself and
having your employer add this spam, simply have your mail client add
the sequence below as your signature. Some clients offer adding the
separator automatically and you only have to type JM in the signature
field.
The “magical” sequence is: -- \nJM
(that is 0x2D 2D 20 0A 4A 4D, with a trailing space)
> JM
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE:
>
> The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
--
Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <http://kwpolska.tk>
PGP: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail | always bottom-post | only UTF-8 makes sense
Chris Angelico
> What is wrong with this world that some over paid lawyer requires a useless,
> silly statement to justify his employment. The money that person is being
> paid should be given to someone else.
I'm not sure those sorts of footers are enforceable or of any value,
but they keep on popping up. Gmail at my end will happily fold it down
as repeated/quoted text, so it doesn't bother me more than once per
thread (usually), so hey, if it keeps the lawyers from hassling
someone, I'm not fussed.
ChrisA
David Robinow
On Jan 8, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Jean-Michel Pichavant <jeanm...@sequans.com> wrote:
>>> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE:
>>>
>>
>
> No pb with that, the python list is the intended recipient :)
>