Guido at Google
JB
he accepted it!!
long life to Guido & Goole ! many things to come ;)
ju²
Fuzzyman
your paranoia levels).
You got any references on that ?
I was just thinking that the open source offerings from google are
actually pretty pitiful - considering the time investment they have put
into developing software systems. (Summer of Code not-withstanding of
course).
I wonder if this heralds google finally upgrading from Python 2.2 ;-)
All the best,
Harald Armin Massa
> he accepted it!!
Isn't Guido-Sans official title BDFL? *wink*
whatever, if it's true, congratulations and best wishes. Now there is
one *bot and the BDFL at google, we have still 3 bots in the wild, do
we?
Suggesting to name a Rigobot ....
Harald
Alex Martelli
> That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on
> your paranoia levels).
>
> You got any references on that ?
I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he
sits about 15 meters away from me;-).
> I was just thinking that the open source offerings from google are
> actually pretty pitiful - considering the time investment they have put
> into developing software systems. (Summer of Code not-withstanding of
> course).
The key technical person for opensource at Google isn't Guido and isn't
me -- rather, I'd focus on Greg Stein (whose contributions to open
source have been very wide-ranging, and who's been our engineering
manager for opensource for quite a while now... not a secret, you can
read about that on Greg's own blog). If you want more opensource from
us, he's most probably the best person to bug about it!-). I'm sure
that, being the chairman of the Apache Software Foundation (the VP of
the ASF is also a Google employee), he can bend your ears about that;-).
> I wonder if this heralds google finally upgrading from Python 2.2 ;-)
We currently use multiple versions of Python, and I personally don't see
that changing overnight. But, we'll see.
Alex
Fuzzyman
Alex Martelli wrote:
> Fuzzyman <fuzz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on
> > your paranoia levels).
> >
> > You got any references on that ?
>
> I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he
> sits about 15 meters away from me;-).
>
Cool - pass on my regards and thanks to him. ;-)
>
> > I was just thinking that the open source offerings from google are
> > actually pretty pitiful - considering the time investment they have put
> > into developing software systems. (Summer of Code not-withstanding of
> > course).
>
> The key technical person for opensource at Google isn't Guido and isn't
> me -- rather, I'd focus on Greg Stein (whose contributions to open
> source have been very wide-ranging, and who's been our engineering
> manager for opensource for quite a while now... not a secret, you can
> read about that on Greg's own blog). If you want more opensource from
> us, he's most probably the best person to bug about it!-). I'm sure
> that, being the chairman of the Apache Software Foundation (the VP of
> the ASF is also a Google employee), he can bend your ears about that;-).
>
Well, employing key open-source personnel and supporting them in their
work *probably* counts as helping the open-source world.
OTOH they (you...) must have worked on/with tremendous systems - like
load balancing software as one example off the top of my head. I guess
these are the competitive edge of google - and also there is a lot of
work turning in house systems into 'released' ones, even if the will is
there.
Even so - the code that has been directly released by google is
relatively slender.
>
> > I wonder if this heralds google finally upgrading from Python 2.2 ;-)
>
> We currently use multiple versions of Python, and I personally don't see
> that changing overnight. But, we'll see.
>
I've no axe to grind on that one.
All the best,
Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml
>
> Alex
Nicola Musatti
Alex Martelli wrote:
> Fuzzyman <fuzz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on
> > your paranoia levels).
> >
> > You got any references on that ?
>
> I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he
> sits about 15 meters away from me;-).
Tsk, tsk, all that brainpower sitting so close together. That's not the
way to do risk management! I think you should suggest scattering
resources worldwide... now, it just so happens that there's an empty
five floor building a block and a half from my home...
By the way, I hear that you've become collegues also with Matt Austern,
formerly of Apple, and Danny Thorpe, formerly of Borland. I guess we
mere mortals don't stand a chance of being hired, but if the trend
continues there are going to be a lot of very interesting positions
opening everywhere else :-)
Cheers,
Nicola Musatti
rbt
> I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he
> sits about 15 meters away from me;-).
For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet.
Martin P. Hellwig
Well they could have used google for that ;-)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=15+meter+in+feet&btnG=Google+Search
--
mph
Kamilche
and you, both. :-)
Jack Diederich
Right, so that is about three and a half stone?
Peter Hansen
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:36:42PM -0500, rbt wrote:
>
You're probably** thinking of rods, as a stone is a measure of weight.
http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+15+meters+to+rods
--
** More likely you're just pulling our legs. :-)
Peter Hansen
Google can do that too, of course. <wink>
http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+15+meters+to+feet
(49.2125984 feet to be more precise)
-Peter
Rocco Moretti
Stone is a measure of weight, not distance. (14 pounds, ~6.35 kg)
15 meters (150 decimeter, 1500 cm, etc ...)
590 inches
49 feet
16 yards
0.0093 miles
0.008 nautical miles
3 rods
0.075 furlongs
1800 barleycorns
147.63 hands
66 spans
33 cubits
13 ells
8.2 fathoms
75 links
0.75 chains
0.0027 leauges
0.03 li
0.081 stadia
4.8e-16 parsecs
1e-10 astronomical units
5e-8 lightseconds
2.8e11 Bohr radiuses
9.2e35 Plank lenghts
and probably most appropriately (being dutch):
1.5 roede
In other words "a stone's throw away".
Gerard Flanagan
> Jack Diederich wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:36:42PM -0500, rbt wrote:
> >
> >>Alex Martelli wrote:
> >>
> >>>I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he
> >>>sits about 15 meters away from me;-).
> >>
> >>For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet.
> >
> >
> > Right, so that is about three and a half stone?
> Stone is a measure of weight, not distance. (14 pounds, ~6.35 kg)
No, _meters_ are a measure of weight.
15 meters (150 decimeter, 1500 cm, etc ...)
590 inches
49 feet
147.63 hands
900.7 fingers
1150.64 toes
~3.5 stone
qed
geddit?
Dave Hansen
<roccom...@hotpop.com> wrote:
[...]
You forgot
8.81419673 smoots
Regards,
-=Dave
--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.
Bengt Richter
Actually that looks like it's based on the approximation
of 25.4 mm/inch, whereas I believe the legally defined US conversion
is 39.3700 inches/meter. They're close. British is 39.3701 for some reason.
At least according to my dusty 37th Edition Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (c) 1955.
Maybe things have changed since then ;-)
>>> 15e3/25.4/12
49.212598425196852
Appears to be the google number
But the official conversion
>>> 1000/39.37
25.400050800101603
is not _exactly_ 25.4 mm/inch
so the distance from Martellibot to BDFL should
more exactly be
>>> 15*39.37/12
49.212499999999999
Send bug report to google ;-)
Regards,
Bengt Richter
nnor...@gmail.com
>
> By the way, I hear that you've become collegues also with Matt Austern,
> formerly of Apple, and Danny Thorpe, formerly of Borland. I guess we
> mere mortals don't stand a chance of being hired, but if the trend
> continues there are going to be a lot of very interesting positions
> opening everywhere else :-)
Ha! I'm still trying to figure out who let me in. Everyone has some
chance.
Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk
about a one-way ticket to Mexico.
The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-)
n
Greg Stein
software. While we've released some stuff
(code.google.com/projects.html), there is a LOT more that we want to
do. Getting engineers' 20% time to do that has been difficult.
Thankfully, we know how to fix that and got the okay/headcount to make
it happen. (IOW, it isn't a lack of desire, but making it happen)
But even if we haven't been able to open-source as much code as we'd
like, we *have* been trying to be very supportive of the community.
Between the Summer of Code and direct cash contributions, we've
provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source
organizations.
And we have a couple other ideas on how to help the open source
community. We're working on it!
Cheers,
-g
Jim Benson
> >>
> >> For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet.
> >
> >Google can do that too, of course. <wink>
> >
> >http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+15+meters+to+feet
> >
> >(49.2125984 feet to be more precise)
> >
> Actually that looks like it's based on the approximation
> of 25.4 mm/inch, whereas I believe the legally defined US conversion
> is 39.3700 inches/meter. They're close. British is 39.3701 for some reason.
> At least according to my dusty 37th Edition Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (c) 1955.
> Maybe things have changed since then ;-)
>
Actually they did change...My 54th edition lists the change that
as of July 1 1959, by definition, 1 inch is exactly 25.4 mm.
Jim
Peter Hansen
[roughly "an inch is not exactly 25.4mm"]
> At least according to my dusty 37th Edition Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (c) 1955.
> Maybe things have changed since then ;-)
Wikipedia concurs with Jim, though it says the official change dates
from 1958.
Better throw that old book out, as it's also likely to be missing any
reference to useful elements such as Lawrencium (1961), and Hassium
(1984), not to mention Ununnilium, Ununumium and Ununbium (94, 94, 96
respectively) or the most recently discovered element, which the PSU
tried to supp
Anand
I wonder if this has got to do something with Microsoft developing
IronPython. Incidentellay it is reaching a 1.0 release pretty soon.
Perhaps Google has some cards up their sleeve. What other best way to
counter this than to hire the big fish himself ? :-)
-Anand
Ilias Lazaridis
> Yeah... we recognize that we could certainly open-source more of our
> software. While we've released some stuff
> (code.google.com/projects.html), there is a LOT more that we want to
http://code.google.com/projects.html
> do. Getting engineers' 20% time to do that has been difficult.
> Thankfully, we know how to fix that and got the okay/headcount to make
> it happen. (IOW, it isn't a lack of desire, but making it happen)
When a company like Google open's sources, this means simply nothing
more than:
- the software is not critical to their business (e.g. core-software)
- the internal resources cannot ensure further development
See IBM, SUN and others, which have done the same thing.
> But even if we haven't been able to open-source as much code as we'd
> like, we *have* been trying to be very supportive of the community.
> Between the Summer of Code and direct cash contributions, we've
> provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source
> organizations.
I hope that you invest some time to _organize_ the Open Source Projects.
Starting with Python and it's project-structure (e.g. build-process) and
documentation (e.g. ensuring standard-terminology is kept, like "class")
e.g.: where can I find an UML diagramm of the Python Object Model?
Even Ruby has one:
http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png
-
> And we have a couple other ideas on how to help the open source
> community. We're working on it!
The open-source-community can help Google, too!
E.g.: Google needs an public Issue-Tracking-System.
I needed around 30 emails and 2 months until google-groups-support
removed a bug which broke(!) existent links to google archives. (cannot
find the topic. Simply search your support-archives to see the desaster).
With publicity, the team would have removed the bug within one week.
> Cheers,
> -g
And finally:
If Mr. van Rossum is now at Google, and Python is essentially a Mr. van
Rossum based product, then most possibly the evolution-speed of Python
will decrease even more (Google will implement things needed by Google -
van Rossum will follow, so simple).
I mean, when will this language finally become a _really_ fully
Object-Oriented one, with a clean reflective Meta-Model?
Thus I can see Python pass this this _simple_ evaluation (which it does
not pass in its current implementation):
http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html
-
I have around one year to await.
Will see.
.
bon...@gmail.com
of either organisations of such size ?
Alex Martelli
Interesting question. I would expect, without any inside knowledge,
that Java, for example, is pretty high "in the priority of an
organization" (guess which one?) whose size (number of employees) is, I
believe, quite a bit larger than Google's. Microsoft used to have a
"particular programming language" (Visual Basic) in quite a strategic
role in their array of products, and although you'd now have to consider
a small set instead (including C#) it seems to me they still do. As for
Google, well, I believe there is exactly one (1) person you'll find
identified on the web as both a "Google Fellow" AND a Google
vice-president, and his page from when he was a professor at UCSB
(before he joined Google) is still on the web, too: guess what field his
research was in...? But I guess this is about programming languages in
general, rather than "a particular one" (and indeed, neither MS, nor
Google, nor the other organization above mentioned, have ever been
"single-programming-language" cultures [net of the very early times when
Basic was MS's only product, of course;-)]...).
Alex
bon...@gmail.com
to and if its context or meaning have been read otherwise(intended or
not intended), there isn't much I can do.
Gary Herron
You don't appear to understand Open Source very well.
Python is the way it is because we, the community, *like* it that way.
It evolves in directions that we (all) decide it is to evolve. Guido is
our leader in this because we trust him and *choose* to follow his lead.
If you want something changed you don't wait and you don't whine, you
join the community with a reasoned argument for why your idea would make
it a better language in *our* eyes.
So how about it... What's your complaint, what's your solution, and why
should we listen?
Gary Herron
bon...@gmail.com
Gary Herron wrote:
> You don't appear to understand Open Source very well.
>
> Python is the way it is because we, the community, *like* it that way.
> It evolves in directions that we (all) decide it is to evolve. Guido is
> our leader in this because we trust him and *choose* to follow his lead.
> If you want something changed you don't wait and you don't whine, you
> join the community with a reasoned argument for why your idea would make
> it a better language in *our* eyes.
>
> So how about it... What's your complaint, what's your solution, and why
> should we listen?
>
that is "Open source" in general. Another way is that if someone(or
group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't
know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming
language in general. Can it still be called python ?
I am not saying that it is a better way(my guess is not) but just that
the first sentence seems to be overly generalized.
Alex Martelli
...
> > > > I wonder if this has got to do something with Microsoft developing
> > > > IronPython. Incidentellay it is reaching a 1.0 release pretty soon.
> > > > Perhaps Google has some cards up their sleeve. What other best way to
> > > > counter this than to hire the big fish himself ? :-)
> > > I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty
> > > of either organisations of such size ?
> > Interesting question. I would expect, without any inside knowledge,
> > "single-programming-language" cultures [net of the very early times when
> > Basic was MS's only product, of course;-)]...).
> >
> The question was specifically to the previous question it is responsed
> to and if its context or meaning have been read otherwise(intended or
> not intended), there isn't much I can do.
The funny idea that Google would hire Guido to "counter" Microsoft's
hiring of Jim Hugunin 1+ year ago didn't particularly need debunking,
but you chose to comment on it with a "question" which I thought was
worth answering, since you chose to phrase it so very generally, and
since it appeared to be intended as a "rhetorical question" hinting at
what I consider a wrong idea in the general case. Far from "there not
being much you can do", if you're interested in avoiding possible
misunderstandings you can easily choose to express yourself more
precisely and specifically, rather than vaguely and generically...
Alex
Bengt Richter
I had been using 25.4mm/inch myself, but decided to look it up, and
found that I had been using the "wrong" value -- now actually proving
to be right after all, after the definition change of 1958(1959?).
Google found an NIST page:
http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/appenB.html
Where it says:
"""
B.6 U.S. survey foot and mile
The U. S. Metric Law of 1866 gave the relationship 1 m = 39.37 in (in is
the unit symbol for the inch). From 1893 until 1959, the yard was defined
as being exactly equal to (3600/3937) m, and thus the foot was defined as
being exactly equal to (1200/3937) m.
In 1959 the definition of the yard was changed to bring the U.S. yard and
the yard used in other countries into agreement. Since then the yard has
been defined as exactly equal to 0.9144 m, and thus the foot has been
defined as exactly equal to 0.3048 m. At the same time it was decided that
any data expressed in feet derived from geodetic surveys within the United
States would continue to bear the relationship as defined in 1893, namely,
1 ft = (1200/ 3937) m (ft is the unit symbol for the foot). The name of
this foot is "U.S. survey foot," while the name of the new foot defined in
1959 is "international foot." The two are related to each other through
the expression 1 international foot = 0.999 998 U.S. survey foot exactly.
In Sec. B.8 and Sec. B.9, the factors given are based on the international
foot unless otherwise indicated. Users of this /Guide/ may also find
the following summary of exact relationships helpful, where for
convenience the symbols /ft/ and /mi,/ that is, ft and mi in
italic type, indicate that it is the /U.S. survey foot/ or /U.S.
survey mile/ that is meant rather than the international foot (ft) or
international mile (mi), and where rd is the unit symbol for the rod and
fur is the unit symbol for the furlong.
1 /ft/ = (1200/3937) m
1 ft = 0.3048 m
1 ft = 0.999 998 /ft/
1 rd, pole, or perch = 16 1/2 /ft/
40 rd = 1 fur = 660 /ft/
8 fur = 1 U.S. survey mile (also called "statute mile") = 1 /mi/ = 5280 /ft/
1 fathom = 6 /ft/
1 international mile = 1 mi = 5280 ft
272 1/4 /ft/**2 = 1 rd**2
160 rd**2 = 1 acre = 43 560ft**2
640 acre = 1 /mi/**2
"""
(I changed italics to be indicated by /italic/ slashes, and superscript by **,
as well as changing special characters for a quarter and half to 1/4 and 1/2.
Hope I didn't typo ;-)
Anyway, 25.4 mm/inch it is. Nice to revert to that, after an unsettling diversion ;-)
NIST ought to have it right, right? Or is there an intelligent design version now? ;-/
Regards,
Bengt Richter
bon...@gmail.com
how you can read it as "rhetorical question"(could be just that it is
from me), there really is nothing I can do other changing the mail name
which I am intended to.
What is your meaning of "wrong idea in the general case" ?
Alex Martelli
...
> > > > > I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty
> > > > > of either organisations of such size ?
...
> which I am intended to.
Sorry, can't parse this (I doubt it's English).
> What is your meaning of "wrong idea in the general case" ?
In the general case, it's pretty general;-). In the specific case of
your "question" above quoted (interpreting the mis-spelled words and
grammatical errors to the best of my modest ability), reading it as
rhetorical means it's in fact intended as a statement (that a particular
programming language cannot have high priority for organizations of size
similar to MS's and Google's), and such a statement is incorrect (as I
tried showing with several examples displaying "particular programming
languages" having high strategical priorities for organizations with
many thousands of employees, including one with more personnel [larger
size] than Google's).
An example of rhetorical question:
"Do you really think that a specific technology [including a software
one, such as a programming language] cannot have, in certain cases,
*extremely high* strategic priority for organizations with thousands of
employees?"
In this example, the question is phrased to hint at how silly such an
opinion would be, and therefore imply that you can't really think that
(and must have ulterior motives for so suggesting, etc etc). Rhetorical
questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing (although, like
all stylistic embellishments, they can be overused, and can be made much
less effective if murkily or fuzzily phrased), of course.
Alex
Steve Holden
Bengt Richter
So I found, which makes me happy, because I had been assuming 25.4
for a long time. (I'm not happy about saying "I believe the legally
defined conversion..." since I had only just tried to verify 25.4
and found that I was "wrong." I guess something told me to hedge with that "maybe" ;-)
FWIW, my first reference was my trusty old Random House American College Dictionary
(that I used in high school) dictionary, which also says 39.37 in/meter.
But it's copyrighted 1949. They used to make real reference books with good paper ;-)
Regards,
Bengt Richter
EP
I do not know how badly Google needs a particular programming language
Python, but in that I believe the IT world at large could really use
Python, more Python, both as it exists and as it might evolve to be, I
would like to mention that Python, the language, could really use a high
profile industry champion.
Java => Sun
.Net => Microsoft
C# => Microsoft
Linux => too many big name IT companies to mention
Python => ________ ?
These kind of alliances may not improve the bytecode, but they sure
influence what programmers get to use day in and day out.
Congrats, Guido. Thanks for Python and may your future at Google be bright.
EP
bon...@gmail.com
Alex Martelli wrote:
> In the general case, it's pretty general;-). In the specific case of
> your "question" above quoted (interpreting the mis-spelled words and
> grammatical errors to the best of my modest ability), reading it as
> rhetorical means it's in fact intended as a statement (that a particular
> programming language cannot have high priority for organizations of size
> similar to MS's and Google's), and such a statement is incorrect (as I
> tried showing with several examples displaying "particular programming
> languages" having high strategical priorities for organizations with
> many thousands of employees, including one with more personnel [larger
> size] than Google's).
words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the
impact to Google ? As an outsider, I can only base on public info, like
a press release mentioning Guido has been hired.
>
> An example of rhetorical question:
> "Do you really think that a specific technology [including a software
> one, such as a programming language] cannot have, in certain cases,
> *extremely high* strategic priority for organizations with thousands of
> employees?"
>
> In this example, the question is phrased to hint at how silly such an
> opinion would be, and therefore imply that you can't really think that
> (and must have ulterior motives for so suggesting, etc etc). Rhetorical
> questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing (although, like
> all stylistic embellishments, they can be overused, and can be made much
> less effective if murkily or fuzzily phrased), of course.
Surprisingly, I don't see this as an rhetorical question at all. It is
quite netural to me as a "I don't agree with you" without indication of
silliness, just a style of writing.
Ray
> Congrats, Guido. Thanks for Python and may your future at Google be bright.
Congrats to BDFL too--may the future of his and his creation be bright
indeed!
Ray
>
>
> EP
Fuzzyman
I salute your contribution to the world of open source in general.
I'm hopeful that the employing Guido will lead to a more tangible bias
in favour of Python ;-)
All the best,
Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml
> Cheers,
> -g
Peter Hansen
> So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other
> words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the
> impact to Google ?
Since when is Python in a standstill?
By all accounts I've seen, and personal observation over the last five
years, it's use is growing rapidly, and the language itself (including
in that word the libraries, tools, etc.) is continuing to evolve and
improve.
-Peter
Cameron Laird
<bon...@gmail.com> wrote:
.
.
.
>Well, this may be the CPython way of open source but I don't know if
>that is "Open source" in general. Another way is that if someone(or
>group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't
>know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming
>language in general. Can it still be called python ?
.
.
While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to
observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is
unusual for the *large* number of "forks" or alternative imple-
mentations it has supported through the years <URL:
http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html >.
bon...@gmail.com
as part of the project, without the permission from the foundation ?
Say for example, anyone want to implement java needs permission from
Sun(or is it javasoft), if I rememeber correctly. Therefore, the only
way to make change to java the language is to convince Sun, very
similar to the model of Python. But many open source project is not
using this model.
Luis M. González
> .Net => Microsoft
> C# => Microsoft
> Linux => too many big name IT companies to mention
> Python => ________ ?
I know at least one company responsible for a linux distro (Cannonical
- Ubuntu), which encourages and even pays programmers for developing
applications in Python.
His founder, Mark Shuttleworth, is a python fan.
Carsten Haese
> bon...@gmail.com wrote:
> > So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other
> > words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the
> > impact to Google ?
>
I believe bonono meant the question in the hypothetical sense of "If
Python would stand still in its current state, what would be the impact
to Google?" but didn't know how to ask it correctly.
-Carsten
Renato
all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and
Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or
redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official
software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS
installer) are written in Python, too.
So RedHat, too, has a big interest in Python :-)
--
Renato Ramonda
Graham Fawcett
> In article <1135239900.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> <bon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> .
> >that is "Open source" in general. Another way is that if someone(or
> >group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't
> >know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming
> >language in general. Can it still be called python ?
> .
> observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is
> unusual for the *large* number of "forks" or alternative imple-
> mentations it has supported through the years <URL:
> http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html >.
...though not a lot of forks/variations that have persisted past the
early-alpha phase. Many of those projects are stale or defunct, alas.
Personally, I'd point out Scheme as an "open" HLL with a vast number of
implementations. But I guess it helps when the language itself is a
spec and there's no canonical implementation.
This all reminds me of one my favourite quotes from python-list of
yore:
<Thaddeus Olczyk> So python will fork if ActiveState starts
polluting it?
<Brian Quinlan> I find it more relevant to speculate on whether
Python would fork if the merpeople start invading our cities
riding on the backs of giant king crabs. [1]
Merry _('Christmas') to all,
Graham
----
[1] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-April/037142.html
Graham Fawcett
> > Nicola Musatti wrote:
> > Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk
> > about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-)
> >
> I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU
Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding
you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the
cabal!
Graham
Steve Holden
Foundation. So if you invent another language and start calling it
"Python" just to get an audience you should expect to receive a
cease-and-desist letter.
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/
bon...@gmail.com
Steve Holden wrote:
> Well the name "Python" is a trade mark of the Python Software
> Foundation. So if you invent another language and start calling it
> "Python" just to get an audience you should expect to receive a
> cease-and-desist letter.
>
PythonModified like when people enhance vi so there is vim and nvi etc
?
What about the copyright in CPython ? Can I someone take the codebase
and make modifications then call it Sneak ?
Carsten Haese
Most of your question can be answered by reading the license. Section 3
of version 2 of the PSF license states:
"""
3. In the event Licensee prepares a derivative work that is based on
or incorporates Python or any part thereof, and wants to make
the derivative work available to others as provided herein, then
Licensee hereby agrees to include in any such work a brief summary of
the changes made to Python.
"""
In other words, you can change Python to your liking and distribute the
changed version, as long as you tell people how it differs from Python.
Since the changed version is different from Python, calling it Python
would be a) boneheaded and b) as Steve Holden points out, a trademark
violation. Note that section 7 states that "This License Agreement does
not grant permission to use PSF trademarks or trade name in a trademark
sense to endorse or promote products or services of Licensee, or any
third party" and the Python name is a trademark of the PSF.
So, if there is something you don't like about Python, you have two
choices:
1) Seek consensus with the Python community and have your changes
accepted into the "official" Python version, or
2) Fork Python into something else with a different name. If the
different name contains 'Python', you'll probably have to ask PSF for
permission. In any case, as outlined above, you have have to state that
the fork is based on Python and summarize how it differs from Python.
Hope this clears things up,
Carsten.
bon...@gmail.com
Carsten Haese wrote:
> So, if there is something you don't like about Python, you have two
> choices:
> 1) Seek consensus with the Python community and have your changes
> accepted into the "official" Python version, or
> 2) Fork Python into something else with a different name. If the
> different name contains 'Python', you'll probably have to ask PSF for
> permission. In any case, as outlined above, you have have to state that
> the fork is based on Python and summarize how it differs from Python.
>
> Hope this clears things up,
>
Steve Holden
hypothetical questions please refer to the license.
Thomas Wouters
> Steve Holden wrote:
>> I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU
> [suspicous premature end-of-sentence]
>
> Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding
> you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the
> cabal!
No, you don't understand. There is no PSU, and Steven doesn't know about
them (since it doesn't exist), and he nor I were held captive by the PSU,
since it doesn't exist. Nor is there, in fact, a PSU. Please stop
spreading rumours about the PSU. Not that you would be hunted down and
silenced forcefully by the PSU, which doesn't exist, if you continued to
spread such malignant lies about the existance of the non-existant PSU,
which doesn't exist, of course. Because it doesn't exist. So it wouldn't
be able to do that. Trust me.
Not-brainwashed-after-a-long-but-utterly-unsuspicious-and-PSU-unrelated-absense'ly
y'rs,
--
Thomas Wouters <tho...@xs4all.net>
Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!
Peter Hansen
At about the same instant that he sent that message to group, I was
trying to call Steve on Google Talk and he suddenly went offline. I
haven't seen him since.
While I'm worried for him personally, all I can say is that I think it's
a darn good thing for the community...
...I mean, that he's not the PyCon conference chair this year!
-Peter
Tim Peters
> ...
> What about the copyright in CPython ? Can I someone take the codebase
> and make modifications then call it Sneak ?
Of course they _could_ do that, and even without making modifications
beyond the name change. If you want to know whether it's legal,
that's a different question. Take a copy of the Python license to
your lawyer and buy an opinion worth hearing ;-)
rbt
> Rhetorical
> questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing (although, like
> all stylistic embellishments, they can be overused, and can be made much
> less effective if murkily or fuzzily phrased), of course.
Also, email doesn't convey rhetorical questions that well. Facial
expressions and body movement aid the audience in picking up on things
such as this... maybe Google can fix that too ;)
rbt
Aren't most all intelligent people Python fans?
Python is so unbarbaric or one might say 'refined', yet it can be
applied in a practical manner to all sorts of things. It's like having
James Bond as your very own personal body guard ;)
Alex Martelli
...
> So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other
> words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the
> impact to Google ? As an outsider, I can only base on public info, like
And so can I, as an insider, when I communicate with people who are not
employed by Google nor have signed non-disclosure agreements.
> a press release mentioning Guido has been hired.
If only press releases count, then I believe Google has made few hires
in 2005 -- Elliot Schrage, Johnny Chou, and Vint Cerf, would be about
it, I believe (e.g., I can't even see any press release specifically
about our hiring Kai Fu Lee at http://googlepress.blogspot.com, though
he's mentioned in the press release about Chou).
> > An example of rhetorical question:
> > "Do you really think that a specific technology [including a software
> > one, such as a programming language] cannot have, in certain cases,
> > *extremely high* strategic priority for organizations with thousands of
> > employees?"
...
> Surprisingly, I don't see this as an rhetorical question at all. It is
Then you don't know what "rhetorical question" means; you'll find many
explanations on the web, but one of my favorite is "a question that
conveys a point rather than expects an answer", which is exactly what
this example IS. ((I don't personally find it all that surprising that
you don't know what a given English expression means)).
> quite netural to me as a "I don't agree with you" without indication of
> silliness, just a style of writing.
As I said, and I quote:
> > Rhetorical questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing
although they can be overused, or weakened if they're fuzzy or badly
expressed. More specifically, a rhetorical question may often be used
"for effect" and emphasis, as several of the definitions you'll find on
the web mention.
Alex
Alex Martelli
Answering generically rather than on the basis of any inside
information, like for any other technology, a lot would depend on how
other technologies "competing" for similar uses are faring.
If _every_ programming language were suddenly to undergo the same
"standing still", then the technological stasis would affect every
company using programming languages, regardless of their specific
technology choices: productivity growth would slow across the board (not
stop, of course -- cfr. e.g. Tenner's "Our Own Devices" for very
readable analysis of the effects of the developments of technology
versus technique) but the competitive situation would be unaffected.
If, on the other hand, technology X was to suddently stand still while
competing technology Y keeps showing real improvements, this would
progressively tilt the competitive playing field against companies
heavily invested in X and not in Y; eventually such companies would have
to pay the costs of switching to Y, or suffer a deterioration in their
competitive position.
That Google's heavily invested in Python is hardly inside information (I
believe we have a quote to that effect by Peter Norvig on python.org).
Of course, this pretty obvious analysis treats "Python" as a whole
technology -- it doesn't particularly care whether "improvements" come
to the language per se, to the libraries, to the implementation, etc, it
just takes as "improvement" any change that does enhance existing users'
productivity (indeed, changes that do so without requiring any training
or much work, such as compiling an unchanged language to faster code,
might have more immediate impact than new language features, which would
only enter into use slowly and gradually).
Alex
Alex Martelli
> all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and
> Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or
> redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official
> software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS
> installer) are written in Python, too.
BTW, Chip Turner (from RedHat, and deeply involved in those
developments) happened to start at Google the same day I did;-).
Alex
Graham Fawcett
> Graham Fawcett wrote:
> > Steve Holden wrote:
> >>>Nicola Musatti wrote:
> >>>Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk
> >>>about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-)
> >>I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU
> >
> > [suspicous premature end-of-sentence]
> >
> > Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding
> > you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the
> > cabal!
>
> At about the same instant that he sent that message to group, I was
> trying to call Steve on Google Talk and he suddenly went offline. I
> haven't seen him since.
There is no Steve Holden, and he has never been at war with Eurasia.
Remove the P, S and U keys from your keyboard immediately.
double-plus-good'ly yours, ...umm... doble-l-good'ly yor,
Graham
Kent Johnson
> While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to
> observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is
> unusual for the *large* number of "forks" or alternative imple-
> mentations it has supported through the years <URL:
> http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html >.
If you are maintaining that page - JPython is now called Jython and has a web site at
http://www.jython.org.
Kent
Brian van den Broek
> Steve Holden wrote:
>
>>>Nicola Musatti wrote:
>>>Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk
>>>about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-)
>>>
>>
>>I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU
>
> [suspicous premature end-of-sentence]
There one weapon is surp
Ilias Lazaridis
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
>> Greg Stein wrote:
[...]
>>> provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source
>>> organizations.
>>
>>
>> Starting with Python and it's project-structure (e.g. build-process)
>> and documentation (e.g. ensuring standard-terminology is kept, like
>> "class")
>>
>> e.g.: where can I find an UML diagramm of the Python Object Model?
>>
>> Even Ruby has one:
>>
>> http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png
[...]
>> And finally:
>>
>> If Mr. van Rossum is now at Google, and Python is essentially a Mr.
>> van Rossum based product, then most possibly the evolution-speed of
>> Python will decrease even more (Google will implement things needed by
>> Google - van Rossum will follow, so simple).
>>
>> I mean, when will this language finally become a _really_ fully
>> Object-Oriented one, with a clean reflective Meta-Model?
>>
>> Thus I can see Python pass this this _simple_ evaluation (which it
>> does not pass in its current implementation):
>>
>> http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html
>>
>> -
>>
>> I have around one year to await.
>
> You don't appear to understand Open Source very well.
I understand some of the several (partly contrary) meanings of "Open
Source".
> Python is the way it is because we, the community, *like* it that way.
> It evolves in directions that we (all) decide it is to evolve. Guido is
> our leader in this because we trust him and *choose* to follow his lead.
> If you want something changed you don't wait and you don't whine, you
> join the community with a reasoned argument for why your idea would make
> it a better language in *our* eyes.
>
> So how about it... What's your complaint,
As expressed above, I am afraid about pythons evolution-speed and futher
evolution in general.
a) Missing clear and concise documentation, e.g. of Python Object Model,
like UML diagramm:
http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png
b) Leadership (Board/Leader) should engourage change suggestions and
analytical feedback, whilst accepting "analyst-role" in addition to
"implementors-roles" (_both_ are contributions! This should be
communicated by the Board/Leader to the Communicty):
[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/f5cd74aa26617f17
c) I mean, when will python become _really_ fully Object-Oriented, with
a clean reflective Meta-Model? Thus it will pass this simple evaluation:
http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html
> what's your solution,
http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/textual.html
http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/process.html
[alpha status, comments via email or contact-form are welcome]
> and why should we listen?
Cause this would increase the evolution-speed of python.
This would contribute to its success.
> Gary Herron
.
Bengt Richter
So is google about to determine how many luminaries can fit on the head of a project? ;-)
Seriously, if you heavies do sometimes work on the same project, it would be
interesting to know what modes of co-operation you tend to adopt.
Regards,
Bengt Richter
Nicola Musatti
Ah, the closed source days! Back then you could just buy the company
and be done with it. Now you have to chase developers one by one all
over the world... ;-)
Cheers,
Nicola Musatti
EP
>Luis M. González wrote:
>
>
>>>Java => Sun
>>>.Net => Microsoft
>>>C# => Microsoft
>>>Linux => too many big name IT companies to mention
>>>Python => ________ ?
>>>
>>>
>>I know at least one company responsible for a linux distro (Cannonical
>>- Ubuntu), which encourages and even pays programmers for developing
>>applications in Python.
>>His founder, Mark Shuttleworth, is a python fan.
>>
>>
>
>Aren't most all intelligent people Python fans?
>
>
>
Sure, but I am not under the illusion that intelligent people control
the fate of the world
>Python is so unbarbaric or one might say 'refined', yet it can be
>applied in a practical manner to all sorts of things. It's like having
>James Bond as your very own personal body guard ;)
>
>
The truth becomes evident: Guido did not invent Python, Q did!
Or is Guido Q?
Reminds me of a story I heard about Guido- he was working at the PSU and
drew.s...@gmail.com
syntax copied from Perl and make it look as beautiful as Python ....
Then I'll consider switching. ;)
Ummm, I'm sorry, did you say clean reflective meta-model???
So this:
caller[0] =~ /in `([^']+)'/ ? $1 : '(anonymous)'
vs. the python example:
filename, line, fname, source = traceback.extract_stack(limit=2)[0]
return fname
is what you call clean?? Hmmm ... interesting.
Ilias Lazaridis
> And I have around one year to wait for Ruby to get rid of the nasty
> syntax copied from Perl and make it look as beautiful as Python ....
> Then I'll consider switching. ;)
>
> Ummm, I'm sorry, did you say clean reflective meta-model???
yes.
> So this:
>
> caller[0] =~ /in `([^']+)'/ ? $1 : '(anonymous)'
>
> vs. the python example:
>
> filename, line, fname, source = traceback.extract_stack(limit=2)[0]
> return fname
>
> is what you call clean?? Hmmm ... interesting.
no, It is not.
I've not yet defined what I would call the "clean way".
-
both code examples were provided from the community (limited responses
from python community).
-
Ruby does not pass the evaluation, too (although it is closer, due to
the clean metadata capability).
-
And: Ruby has even lower evolution speed:
http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/ruby.html
.
Cameron Laird
Nicola Musatti <nicola....@gmail.com> wrote:
.
.
.
>Ah, the closed source days! Back then you could just buy the company
>and be done with it. Now you have to chase developers one by one all
>over the world... ;-)
.
.
You propellor-heads (I write that in all fondness, Nicola) are
all laughing, but I'm certain that the right elaboration of
that proposition could make it into the *Harvard Business Review*
(or *IBM Systems Journal*, which seems to have tilted irreversibly
in that direction).
Actually, there's already a considerable literature on how pro-
grammers are like other nasty professionals in exhibiting more
loyalty to their community than to their employers. Generalize
as desired.
Cameron Laird
>as part of the project, without the permission from the foundation ?
>Say for example, anyone want to implement java needs permission from
>Sun(or is it javasoft), if I rememeber correctly. Therefore, the only
>way to make change to java the language is to convince Sun, very
>similar to the model of Python. But many open source project is not
>using this model.
>
While I *think* there are several factual errors in this paragraph,
it seems even more probable to me that our different verbal styles
have led to multiple misunderstandings between the two of us. Yes,
Python is like other projects in some ways, and different in others.
Apparently you think there are severe legal restrictions on the free-
dom each of us has to base derivative works on the Python source.
I'll summarize: there aren't. Apart from a few very mild
constraints that prohibit you from little more than saying that
you're Guido and you invented Python, you have remarkable liberty
to adapt Python to your own needs. Moreover, this freedom is not
merely a theoretical principle; *numerous* working engineers have
changed Python to meet their own requirements, and quite a few of
these "modified Pythons" are in production around the world. I've
heard Guido speak words of encouragement to others to do the same.
While I'm only a member of the PSF, and do not speak on its behalf,
it had never occurred to me to equate the management of Java by Sun
with that of Python by the PSF.
Cameron Laird
Graham Fawcett <graham....@gmail.com> wrote:
.
.
.
>...though not a lot of forks/variations that have persisted past the
>early-alpha phase. Many of those projects are stale or defunct, alas.
>
>Personally, I'd point out Scheme as an "open" HLL with a vast number of
>implementations. But I guess it helps when the language itself is a
>spec and there's no canonical implementation.
>
>This all reminds me of one my favourite quotes from python-list of
>yore:
>
> <Thaddeus Olczyk> So python will fork if ActiveState starts
> polluting it?
>
> <Brian Quinlan> I find it more relevant to speculate on whether
> Python would fork if the merpeople start invading our cities
> riding on the backs of giant king crabs. [1]
.
.
.
Brian's wise observation on speculation--well, I, too, think it
deserves to be repeated.
Lisp was, in fact, the language I had in mind when thinking about
"multiple implementations". You are surely right to emphasize the
difference between "language as spec" and "language as implementa-
tion".
My own perspective is not to mourn the dormancy of, say, Vyper,
but to be intrigued by the serious use that continues to be made
of Jython, Stackless, and so on.
Thomas Wouters
> As expressed above, I am afraid about pythons evolution-speed and futher
> evolution in general.
Yet you don't seem to be worried for any (Python) specific reason. Python
evolution has known its ups and downs. For instance, back when Guido
worked at CNRI, Guido was one of the few people with direct access to the
CVS repository. The others were, I believe, all CNRI employees (and
trusted Python developers.) This worked fine for quite a bit, since Guido
first did most of the work, and reviewed patches from the community
personally. Towards the end of Guido's employment with CNRI, this had
begun to chafe a bit, and if you look at releasedates and featuresets,
you'll see quite a gap between Python 1.5.2 and Python 2.0. (Python 1.6
doesn't really count, for various historical reasons, but even if you
compare CNRI-funded 1.6 with opensource-developed 2.0 you'll see a large
set of diverse new features.)
What happened was that Python development moved to SourceForge, and more
people got easier access. More trusted developers got write access to the
repository, and more people got involved in writing patches. It also meant
Guido couldn't keep up with development by others, and he (eventually)
solved that by introducing PEPs. (Like much of Python, he probably
wasn't the first to voice the suggestion, but it's quite likely he was
in fact thinking of it, possibly subconciously, before anyone suggested
it...[1] So I don't think whoever voiced it first minds Guido getting the
crdits.) But he didn't think of PEPs before they'd become absolutely
necessary. He didn't sit at CNRI thinking, "Gee, I wish I could give more
people access and accept more community patches, but how do I decide which
ideas are fundamentally good or bad?", then thought up the administrative
layer of PEPs. They showed up when they were needed, in a form that seemed
convenient, and they evolved over time (slowly, and only slightly, as far
as I can tell) to fit the specific needs. The tools to facilitate
evolution grow from necessity. They probably wouldn't work if forced upon
Python.
And the evolution speed in general, regardless of tools that make that
evolution easier, is in fact determined by need. The unification of
types and classes grew out of a need. It was quite a fundamental step in
Python's object model, and one that had been argued long before it
happened, but the actual implementation waited, in my eyes, until exactly
the right time. Obvious practical need for it, good ideas with regards to
implementation, experience from Zope's ExtensionClass and various uses of
the old metaclass hook, and a group of Python programmers quite eager to
play with all the new toys Guido gave them. Heck, I still love playing
with new=style classes and creating subclassable types and subtypes in C.
A few years earlier it wouldn't have ended up the same, for lack of
experience and need, and a few years later would probably have been too
late.
> a) Missing clear and concise documentation, e.g. of Python Object Model,
> like UML diagramm:
I guess it depends on your idea of clear and concise. I've never, ever,
had a problem with understanding Python's object model. Even new-style
classes only required two PEPs, a few hundred lines each, for me to
understand. I honestly don't care about UML diagrams. And, what's more,
apparently neither does anyone else, or the diagram would have been made
already. In fact, if it's missing, why don't you add it? That's what
opensource is about :)
> b) Leadership (Board/Leader) should engourage change suggestions and
> analytical feedback, whilst accepting "analyst-role" in addition to
> "implementors-roles" (_both_ are contributions! This should be
> communicated by the Board/Leader to the Communicty):
Why would that be necessary, if the current system works? Extra layers for
the sake of extra layers, bureaucracy to feed the need for bureaucracy in
itself, seems madness to me. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. I'm sure
the extra formal layers work quite well in other projects, in other
communities, just like the Python setup wouldn't work for those other
projects. But it works for Python, as evidenced by Python's evolution
speed.
> c) I mean, when will python become _really_ fully Object-Oriented, with
> a clean reflective Meta-Model?
When someone needs it enough to convince Guido it's practical. Python
values practicality above quite a lot of things, like consistency.
Consistency for the sake of consistency, by giving up practicality,
ease-of-use, readability, portability or any of the other important
aspects of Python, will hopefully never happen.
>> and why should we listen?
> Cause this would increase the evolution-speed of python.
> This would contribute to its success.
I don't understand where your confidence in these matters comes from.
The 'this' you refer to *might*, in fact, increase the evolution-speed,
although at what cost I am uncertain. I wouldn't be surprised if it cost
Python, or the Python community, its soul. There are a great many people
who think Python is already evolving at quite a high speed, and would
rather see it slow down than speed up. I am almost, but not quite, in that
camp; I think Python is nigh perfect as it is, but I have enormous respect
for the active Python developers, who by and large are insanely smart
people, and I can't but love and be terribly excited with everything they
think up next. And they're friendly people, to boot.
A higher evolution *might* contribute to Python's success. It may also
contribute to its downfall. Forcing an open-source community to do
something it doesn't want to do will *certainly* lead to its downfall.
Spam-spam-spam'ly y'rs,
[1] Either that, or Guido used the time machine to go back and change his
mind. Or everyone else's.
Fredrik Lundh
> So how about it... What's your complaint, what's your solution, and why
> should we listen?
Nobody will ever know. Check the comp.lang.python/ruby/lisp/etc archives
for more.
</F>
"Martin v. Löwis"
> Apart from a few very mild constraints that prohibit you from little
> more than saying that you're Guido and you invented Python, you have
> remarkable liberty to adapt Python to your own needs. Moreover, this
> freedom is not merely a theoretical principle; *numerous* working
> engineers have changed Python to meet their own requirements, and
> quite a few of these "modified Pythons" are in production around the
> world. I've heard Guido speak words of encouragement to others to do
> the same.
And indeed, in the area of "Extending and embedding", this is one
of the strengths of Python. Nobody will object if you add additional
library functions, data types, etc, and still call it Python.
Traditionally, reimplementations of the entire language have called
themselves differently (Jython, IronPython, PyPy,...), just to
distinguish themselves from (what they call) CPython. In all these
cases, the reimplementations strive for compatibility with the
Python language and library references, so nobody object that they
call themselves "Python implementations".
Also, nobody would object if you take some ideas from Python, some ideas
from other languages, and some of your own ideas, and call the result,
say, "Monad". If the language (syntax, semantics) is significantly
different, you shouldn't call it Python.
Regards,
Martin
blum...@gmail.com
Bugs
officially announce that Guido has moved to Google? If at all?
Also, it would be nice to know from Guido's perspective what, if any at
all, impact this will have on Python?
Maybe here? http://www.artima.com/weblogs/index.jsp?blogger=guido Is
this Guido's official blog?
Greg Stein
style.
This should have a positive impact on Python. His job description has a
*very* significant portion of his time dedicated specifically to
working on Python. (much more than his previous "one day a week" jobs
have given him)
Cheers,
-g
Robert Hicks
Robert
Jay Parlar
Python"?
Jay P
Robert Kern
I'm pretty sure he means "working on Python." No one hires Guido and expects him
not to work *with* Python most of the time.
--
Robert Kern
rober...@gmail.com
"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter
casioc...@gmail.com
Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote:
> > software. While we've released some stuff
> > (code.google.com/projects.html), there is a LOT more that we want to
>
> http://code.google.com/projects.html
>
> > do. Getting engineers' 20% time to do that has been difficult.
> > Thankfully, we know how to fix that and got the okay/headcount to make
> > it happen. (IOW, it isn't a lack of desire, but making it happen)
>
> When a company like Google open's sources, this means simply nothing
> more than:
>
> - the software is not critical to their business (e.g. core-software)
> - the internal resources cannot ensure further development
>
> See IBM, SUN and others, which have done the same thing.
>
> > But even if we haven't been able to open-source as much code as we'd
> > like, we *have* been trying to be very supportive of the community.
> > Between the Summer of Code and direct cash contributions, we've
> > provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source
> > organizations.
>
> I hope that you invest some time to _organize_ the Open Source Projects.
>
> Starting with Python and it's project-structure (e.g. build-process) and
> documentation (e.g. ensuring standard-terminology is kept, like "class")
>
> e.g.: where can I find an UML diagramm of the Python Object Model?
>
> Even Ruby has one:
>
> http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png
>
>
> > And we have a couple other ideas on how to help the open source
> > community. We're working on it!
>
> The open-source-community can help Google, too!
>
> E.g.: Google needs an public Issue-Tracking-System.
>
> I needed around 30 emails and 2 months until google-groups-support
> removed a bug which broke(!) existent links to google archives. (cannot
> find the topic. Simply search your support-archives to see the desaster).
>
> With publicity, the team would have removed the bug within one week.
>
> > Cheers,
> > -g
>
> And finally:
>
> If Mr. van Rossum is now at Google, and Python is essentially a Mr. van
> Rossum based product, then most possibly the evolution-speed of Python
> will decrease even more (Google will implement things needed by Google -
> van Rossum will follow, so simple).
>
> I mean, when will this language finally become a _really_ fully
> Object-Oriented one, with a clean reflective Meta-Model?
>
> Thus I can see Python pass this this _simple_ evaluation (which it does
> not pass in its current implementation):
>
> http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html
>
> -
>
>
> Will see.
>
> .
>
> --
> http://lazaridis.com
Hi there, I wonder what comments you would have about XOTCL, or other
OO extensions for tcl, like snit, and dozens more. I looked at the
various scripting languages available to me and decided to go with tcl
as it seemed the most versatile. I can't find it on your page though.
Regards.
Tim Peters
>>> Guido would acknowledge a query, but never announce it. That's not his
>>> style.
He's been very low-key about it, but did make an informal announcement
on the PSF-Members mailing list.
>>> This should have a positive impact on Python. His job description has a
>>> *very* significant portion of his time dedicated specifically to working on
>>> Python. (much more than his previous "one day a week" jobs have given
>>> him)
It's got to be better than getting one patch per year from him, trying
to fix threading on the ever-popular Open Source combination of HP-UX
on an Itanium chip <wink>.
[Jay Parlar]
>> Do you actually mean "working on Python", or did you mean "working WITH
>> Python"?
[Robert Kern]
> I'm pretty sure he means "working on Python."
While I'm not a professional Greg-channeller, in this case I can: he
meant what he said.
> No one hires Guido and expects him not to work *with* Python most of the time.
Ask Guido how fond he is of Java these days ;-)
Greg Stein
100% "with"
On 12/22/05, Jay Parlar <jpa...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
>
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 2:20 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
> > Guido would acknowledge a query, but never announce it. That's not his
> > style.
> >
> > This should have a positive impact on Python. His job description has a
> > *very* significant portion of his time dedicated specifically to
> > working on Python. (much more than his previous "one day a week" jobs
> > have given him)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -g
> >
> Do you actually mean "working on Python", or did you mean "working WITH
> Python"?
>
> Jay P
>
>
Bugs
> 50% "on"
> 100% "with"
>
Wow, that's great to know, thanks Greg!
x6...@yahoo.com
JB wrote:
> long life to Guido & Goole ! many things to come ;)
Google is merely the new Microsoft and surely just as unethical
at its core.
And your spelling Goole is probably closer to the mark,
since it is merely the next ghoulish big company,
come to restrict our freedoms and blot out the sky.
Kent Johnson
> You mean Jython is still going? ; )
Yes, I see the smiley but there are too many "is Jython dead?" posts on the Jython lists
for me to leave this alone...
Jython is going strong. Thanks to Brian Zimmer and a grant from PSF it is under active
development again and working towards compatibility with CPython 2.3. And of course the
current 2.1 release is extremely stable and usable as is.
Kent
Luis M. González
I beg to disagree.
Google is what it is because it creates good and useful products which
everybody enjoy for free. For doing this, they hire the best guns and,
guess what?
These talented people have to eat, like you and me.
Do you expect them to work for free?
Every company needs to make money, otherwise they would die.
But there are many ways to make it, and I think they are as good and
ethical as they can be.
bearoph...@lycos.com
3.0 is a bit closer... :-)
I don't know if this is a silly idea:
A small part of the wealth of a modern state is probably determined by
the software it uses/produces, and a small part of this software is
open source or free. This free sofware is used by a lot of people, and
they probably use it to work too, etc.
For a modern government, paying a salary to few (20?) very good open
source programmers can make the whole society "earn" maybe 10 or more
times that money... (The money given from EU to PyPy can be an example
of this).
Bye,
bearophile
Ilias Lazaridis
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]
>> http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html
[...]
> Hi there, I wonder what comments you would have about XOTCL, or other
> OO extensions for tcl, like snit, and dozens more. I looked at the
> various scripting languages available to me and decided to go with
> tcl as it seemed the most versatile. I can't find it on your page
> though.
> Regards.
I had myself a positive impression about TCL, but a negative one with
the community (and with the many OO extensions for TCL, which would be a
sub-evaluation):
[JAMLANG] - Comparative Evaluation - Draft Version
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_frm/thread/8791f3b541d976f5
If you like, you can fill in the evaluation based on tcl/XOTCL (which
would be published then).
http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/index.html
you can alternatively sent a text-file via email.
If you have further questions, please contact me with private email.
Thank you for your intrest.
Best Regards,
Ilias Lazaridis
.
Robert Kern
No, it's not a silly idea. Dean Baker, the Co-Director the Center for Economic
and Policy Research, has proposed for the U.S. government to establish a
Software Developer's Corps. For $2 billion per year, it could fund about 20,000
developers to make open source software. Much of that software would be directly
usable by local, state, and federal governments and thus pay back some, all, or
more of the investment (Dean estimates more). In addition, the general public
also benefits directly.
http://www.cepr.net/publications/windows_2005_10.pdf
Ilias Lazaridis
> Gary Herron wrote:
>
>
>>So how about it... What's your complaint, what's your solution, and why
>>should we listen?
>
> Nobody will ever know.
simply review this explanations:
http://lazaridis.com/core/index.html
some people have already understood this in the past.
> Check the comp.lang.python/ruby/lisp/etc archives
> for more.
evaluations will be listed here shortly:
http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/index.html
(if you find an itresting topic, please send the link)
> </F>
.
Ilias Lazaridis
[...]
thank you for your comments.
-
TAG.python.evolution.negate
.
Alex Martelli
> Alex Martelli wrote:
> > Renato <renato....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and
> > > Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or
> > > redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official
> > > software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS
> > > installer) are written in Python, too.
> >
> > BTW, Chip Turner (from RedHat, and deeply involved in those
> > developments) happened to start at Google the same day I did;-).
>
> Ah, the closed source days! Back then you could just buy the company
> and be done with it. Now you have to chase developers one by one all
> over the world... ;-)
Well, you can STILL buy the company -- eBay's bought Skipe (and a slice
of craigslist), Yahoo's bought delicious and flickr, we've bought
Keyhole (and a tiny slice of AOL)... just to mention recent and salient
acquisitions...;-)
Alex
Ilias Lazaridis
Doeas anyone at google realize the threat?
Mr. van Rossum should have 100% of his time for working on Python at
least for around 3 to 6 months.
50% for working on it (whilst simply having fun, as he should)
50% for _decoupling_ the strong-dependency of the python-development
from his person, thus python-evolution is ensured. This would involve to
clarify, document and to communicate the need to the community (which
seems to partially have a strong dependency, too).
.
Alex Martelli
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:07:26 -0800, al...@mail.comcast.net (Alex Martelli)
> wrote:
>
> >Renato <renato....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and
> >> Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or
> >> redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official
> >> software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS
> >> installer) are written in Python, too.
> >
> >BTW, Chip Turner (from RedHat, and deeply involved in those
> >developments) happened to start at Google the same day I did;-).
> >
> So is google about to determine how many luminaries can fit on the head of
> a project? ;-) Seriously, if you heavies do sometimes work on the same
> project, it would be interesting to know what modes of co-operation you
> tend to adopt.
Google's official position (per the article Hal Varian and Eric Schmidt
wrote recently) is that we are a "consensus-oriented culture". I _have_
worked in companies with consensus-oriented cultures, such as IBM in the
'80s (where it sometimes paralized everything, since one manager's
"non-concur" was enough to block progress on a project), and I would
respectfully disagree (on this point only -- the rest of their article
is quite consonant with my personal experiences) with our beloved leader
and our most excellent advisor. I would say we're a *results-oriented*
corporate culture... sometimes egos may get bruised, but we're all
supposed to have small-enough, resilient-enough egos to survive and
remain happy and productive anyway;-). Check the xooglers' blog for
others' opinions...
Alex
Alex Martelli
...
> > His founder, Mark Shuttleworth, is a python fan.
>
> Aren't most all intelligent people Python fans?
No: I know many intelligent people who are not Python fans, ranging from
the Perl crowd (lot of great, bright people who however prefer Perl to
Python) to Ruby fans, from the C++ intelligentsia to the Java
in-crowd... hard to explain, for sure, but, there you are!
Alex
Alex Martelli
> So when *is* someone (either Guido himself or Google) going to
> officially announce that Guido has moved to Google? If at all?
I don't think any official announcement is planned.
> Also, it would be nice to know from Guido's perspective what, if any at
> all, impact this will have on Python?
I'll leave this to Guido to answer, if he wants to.
> Maybe here? http://www.artima.com/weblogs/index.jsp?blogger=guido Is
> this Guido's official blog?
I believe so, yes.
Alex
Anand
That is such a nice quote that I am going to put it in my email
signature ! :)
-Anand
bearoph...@lycos.com
http://slashdot.org/articles/05/12/22/1832226.shtml?tid=217
There are some interesting comments, for example from curious Java or
Perl programmers, etc.
Some of them can probably appreciate this:
http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/typecheck
Among the noise there is some signal too, there are lists of some
problems of Python. Taking some of those things seriously can be
useful, I think.
Bye,
bearophile