You advice please
Hussein B
I'm a Java/Java EE developer and I'm playing with Python these days.
I like the Python language so much and I like its communities and the
Django framework.
My friends are about to open a Ruby/Rails shop and they are asking me
to join them.
I don't know what, sure I'm not leaving Java, but they are asking me
to stop learning Python and concentrate on Ruby/Rails.
The sad fact (at least to me), Ruby is getting a lot of attention
these days.
Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
language and it is used by many big, big names?
And do I dare to say it is much more charming?
What do you think of Ruby/Rails? do they worth learning and working
with?
Any way, I'm not leaving Python and I will try to study it every time
I get a chance...
Thanks.
"Álvaro G. Vicario"
> The sad fact (at least to me), Ruby is getting a lot of attention
> these days.
> Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
> language and it is used by many big, big names?
> And do I dare to say it is much more charming?
The opinion of a PHP developer who's playing with Python as well:
I've come across Python almost everywhere. Many programs I use (or I've
evaluated) are written in Python or use it for scripting: source control
software (Subversion, Bazaar, Mercurial), IDEs (Komodo Edit), popular
web applications (Zope, Trac)... If you're looking for a script for
admin tasks your search results will probably contain something in
Python. If you want to build a Firefox extension you'll find a *.py file
sitting around.
But I've never came across a Ruby app. Sure, I know Ruby exists and
people are very enthusiastic about it (though they often mistake it with
Ruby on Rails), but that's all.
Ruby is popular among bloggers but I'm not sure whether it's popular
among developers.
--
-- http://alvaro.es - Álvaro G. Vicario - Burgos, Spain
-- Mi sitio sobre programación web: http://bits.demogracia.com
-- Mi web de humor al baño María: http://www.demogracia.com
--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
>My friends are about to open a Ruby/Rails shop and they are asking me
>to join them.
I hope they are fully aware of the scaling problems RoR can have.
>Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
>language and it is used by many big, big names?
At least in my experience Python is getting more and more exposure. More
job openings as well.
--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
A liar needs a good memory...
Hussein B
nomine.org> wrote:
> -On [20080813 13:16], Hussein B (hubaghd...@gmail.com) wrote:
>
> >My friends are about to open a Ruby/Rails shop and they are asking me
> >to join them.
>
> I hope they are fully aware of the scaling problems RoR can have.
>
> >Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
> >language and it is used by many big, big names?
>
> At least in my experience Python is getting more and more exposure. More
> job openings as well.
>
> --
> Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
> A liar needs a good memory...
So do you advice me to join them?
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
>So do you advice me to join them?
I will never say yes or no to such a question. Such choices are choices only
you can make since you know the whole story.
Personally I found Python nicer than Ruby to program in. And I even started
with Ruby.
I merely commented on the fact that from where you are sitting and looking
you do not see as much Python out there as you see Ruby. I merely provided a
counterpoint that from where I am sitting I am seeing more and more Python
pop up, also for jobs.
--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
No cord or cable can draw so forcibly, or bind so fast, as love can do
with a single thread...
Bruno Desthuilliers
> Hussein B escribió:
>> The sad fact (at least to me), Ruby is getting a lot of attention
>> these days.
>> Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
>> language and it is used by many big, big names?
>> And do I dare to say it is much more charming?
>
> The opinion of a PHP developer who's playing with Python as well:
>
> I've come across Python almost everywhere. Many programs I use (or I've
> evaluated) are written in Python or use it for scripting: source control
> software (Subversion, Bazaar, Mercurial), IDEs (Komodo Edit), popular
> web applications (Zope, Trac)... If you're looking for a script for
> admin tasks your search results will probably contain something in
> Python. If you want to build a Firefox extension you'll find a *.py file
> sitting around.
>
> But I've never came across a Ruby app. Sure, I know Ruby exists and
> people are very enthusiastic about it (though they often mistake it with
> Ruby on Rails), but that's all.
Redmine is a nice alternative to Trac. And Twitter is certainly a
well-known app too. (Yes, RoR apps in both cases...).
> Ruby is popular among bloggers but I'm not sure whether it's popular
> among developers.
Almost as much as Python, I'd say. But both languages fight for the same
niches in languages/techno ecosystem, and Python, being older, tend to
get more visibility.
Hussein B
But Twitter is suffering from sever scaling problems, I read it maybe
will be reimplemented in Java ...
Bruno Desthuilliers
> Hey,
> I'm a Java/Java EE developer and I'm playing with Python these days.
> I like the Python language so much and I like its communities and the
> Django framework.
> My friends are about to open a Ruby/Rails shop and they are asking me
> to join them.
> I don't know what, sure I'm not leaving Java, but they are asking me
> to stop learning Python and concentrate on Ruby/Rails.
> The sad fact (at least to me), Ruby is getting a lot of attention
> these days.
> Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
> language and it is used by many big, big names?
RoR peoples are good at marketing. And Ruby's object model is probably
less alien - at least at first sight - to the Java crowd than Python's
object model is.
But still, Python seems to get some serious exposure - at least outside
of the Java world - these last monthes.
> And do I dare to say it is much more charming?
> What do you think of Ruby/Rails? do they worth learning and working
> with?
Both are certainly worth learning. I can't tell about the "working with"
part since I never used any of them for anything serious.
Hussein B
Personally, I don't like the RoR framework at all.
It doesn't come with any thing new or revolutionary, they just take
the hard lessons from the Java web applications world.
I think Ruby was a dead language and RoR gave it a life kiss.
Bruno Desthuilliers
(snip)
>
> Personally, I don't like the RoR framework at all.
> It doesn't come with any thing new or revolutionary,
You could say the same about Python and about Django. None of them come
with anything new or revolutionary. And both have warts too.
> they just take
> the hard lessons from the Java web applications world.
> I think Ruby was a dead language and RoR gave it a life kiss.
Ruby was a "slowly growing" language (wrt/ exposure at least) before
Rails became the new buzz in town. But it was certainly not "dead".
D'Arcy J.M. Cain
"Álvaro G. Vicario" <alvaroNOS...@demogracia.com> wrote:
> But I've never came across a Ruby app. Sure, I know Ruby exists and
> people are very enthusiastic about it (though they often mistake it with
> Ruby on Rails), but that's all.
>
> Ruby is popular among bloggers but I'm not sure whether it's popular
> among developers.
Well, I just attended the Agile 2008 conference and sadly Ruby seemed
to be much more popular than Python. I found people who had heard of
Python and were thinking of trying it but developers were working in
Java, C++ and Ruby.
Of course, I didn't talk to every one of the 1500 delegates.
--
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <da...@druid.net> | Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on
+1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner.
Calvin Spealman
Python people are too busy getting things done to talk as loudly.
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 11:04 AM, D'Arcy J.M. Cain <da...@druid.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:47:58 +0200
> "Álvaro G. Vicario" <alvaroNOS...@demogracia.com> wrote:
>> But I've never came across a Ruby app. Sure, I know Ruby exists and
>> people are very enthusiastic about it (though they often mistake it with
>> Ruby on Rails), but that's all.
>>
>> Ruby is popular among bloggers but I'm not sure whether it's popular
>> among developers.
>
> Well, I just attended the Agile 2008 conference and sadly Ruby seemed
> to be much more popular than Python. I found people who had heard of
> Python and were thinking of trying it but developers were working in
> Java, C++ and Ruby.
>
> Of course, I didn't talk to every one of the 1500 delegates.
>
> --
> D'Arcy J.M. Cain <da...@druid.net> | Democracy is three wolves
> http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on
> +1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
--
Read my blog! I depend on your acceptance of my opinion! I am interesting!
http://techblog.ironfroggy.com/
Follow me if you're into that sort of thing: http://www.twitter.com/ironfroggy
Nigel Rantor
> Ruby (on Rails) people love to talk about Ruby (on Rails).
>
> Python people are too busy getting things done to talk as loudly.
Have you read this list?
I would suggest your comment indicates not.
Throwaway comments like yours that are pithy, emotional and devoid of
any factual content are just the kind of thing that makes lists such as
this less useful than they could be.
You are acting as a source of noise, not signal. I'm sure you don't want
to be considered in that manner, so perhaps you should think about
adding something to the conversation instead.
Before you reply please think about what you plan on saying, you'll be
helping not only me but yourself and anyone who reads your post.
n
Ken Starks
not mean you should ignore Ruby, at least to a 'dabble-in' level.
To me, the main reason for learning ruby is because it is the
scripting language for Google sketchup.
And now it looks as if I shall wish to learn another little language, at
least to 'dabble-in' level: Lua, because it is going to srcipt a new
variation in the TeX world.
But neither has a cat-in-hell's chance of replacing python anytime
soon, as far as I am concerned.
Calvin Spealman
--
Fredrik Lundh
> Throwaway comments like yours that are pithy, emotional and devoid of
> any factual content are just the kind of thing that makes lists such as
> this less useful than they could be.
Oh, please. It's a fact that Python advocacy is a lot more low-key than
the advocacy of certain potentially competing technologies. It's always
been that way. Too many Europeans involved, most likely.
> Have you read this list?
>
> I would suggest your comment indicates not.
This list is a Python forum. Calvin (who's a long time contributor to
this forum, which you would have known if you'd actually followed the
list for some time) was talking about the real world.
</F>
Nigel Rantor
> Nigel Rantor wrote:
>
>> Throwaway comments like yours that are pithy, emotional and devoid of
>> any factual content are just the kind of thing that makes lists such
>> as this less useful than they could be.
>
> Oh, please. It's a fact that Python advocacy is a lot more low-key than
> the advocacy of certain potentially competing technologies. It's always
> been that way. Too many Europeans involved, most likely.
Your opinion. We simply disagree on this point.
I'm not sure what the comment about Europeans even means though.
> > Have you read this list?
> >
> > I would suggest your comment indicates not.
>
> This list is a Python forum. Calvin (who's a long time contributor to
> this forum, which you would have known if you'd actually followed the
> list for some time) was talking about the real world.
I did not mean in a "how long have you been here" way. I apologise. I
meant in a "have you not seen how much traffic, including rabid fanboys,
this list gets?"
You're right, I should have been much clearer on that point.
n
Nigel Rantor
> God forbid I try to make a joke.
Ah, sorry, sense of humour failure for me today obviously.
n
Michael.C...@verizonwireless.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Calvin Spealman
>
> God forbid I try to make a joke.
No kidding! As a lurker newbie, I don't mind one bit. Actually, I have
yet to meet a person that codes in Ruby that doesn't also do Python. I
have met many Python coders that have never even looked at Ruby.
Your joke may have more truth in it than you realized. And upper
management reads the *V*logs and believe the hype. We should be
prepared to counter the argument.
The information contained in this message and any attachment may be
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product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or
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If you have received this communication in error, please notify me
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Alia Khouri
> I'm a Java/Java EE developer and I'm playing with Python these days.
> I like the Python language so much and I like its communities and the
> Django framework.
Sounds familiar... (-:
> My friends are about to open a Ruby/Rails shop and they are asking me
> to join them.
In this case, I think you have to make decision that is not technology-
centric but application-centric, and you should also consider closely
the opportunity set and capability set available to you and your
friends.
> I don't know what, sure I'm not leaving Java, but they are asking me
> to stop learning Python and concentrate on Ruby/Rails.
I don't think you should stop learning anything that rings your bell..
I love learning other languages (e.g. Haskell, Lua, Ruby, C#, Java,
boo, etc..) and I will code projects as per the requirements at the
time, but I tend to Python because, like you, I like the language and
the community.
In _addition_ to your love for Python and Django, why not learn Ruby/
Rails? It's not a bad framework at all, and Ruby is quite fun to
program in as well...?
> The sad fact (at least to me), Ruby is getting a lot of attention
> these days.
Not a sad fact, What's good for ruby is good for python and vice
versa... Friendly competition is always positive and usually good
ideas cross-pollinate across the languages...
> Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
> language and it is used by many big, big names?
Who says Python is not getting attention? Last time I checked,
Python's popularity was at all time high, and the big guns in the
industry favor (witness Google AppEngine, Microsoft Ironpython
preceding Ironruby, etc..)
> And do I dare to say it is much more charming?
That is an aesthetic judgement... (-:
> What do you think of Ruby/Rails? do they worth learning and working
> with?
(see above)
> Any way, I'm not leaving Python and I will try to study it every time
> I get a chance...
Good for you (-:
> Thanks.
David C. Ullrich
Ken Starks <str...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Hussein B wrote:
>[...]
>
> And now it looks as if I shall wish to learn another little language, at
> least to 'dabble-in' level: Lua, because it is going to srcipt a new
> variation in the TeX world.
That sounded interesting - I did a little googling to get
some idea what you were talking about.
> But neither has a cat-in-hell's chance of replacing python anytime
> soon, as far as I am concerned.
And one of the things I found was Lua-in-Python and Python-in-Lua,
leading to Python in LuaTeX:
http://labix.org/lunatic-python
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/User:Luigi.scarso#Luatex_examples
--
David C. Ullrich
Hussein B
Yes but Python is a known language and used by many big names (Google
and NASA should be more than enough examples).
Ruby on the other hand was hardly being hear, it lacks the
documentation, a specification and an umbrella like JCP or PSF.
I'm not sure why "The Pragmatic Programmer" and "Manning" publishers
aren't doing any work on Python.
Well, the Python bit me :)
Bruno Desthuilliers
(snip)
> Oh, please. It's a fact that Python advocacy is a lot more low-key than
> the advocacy of certain potentially competing technologies. It's always
> been that way. Too many Europeans involved, most likely.
I'm afraid I don't get the joke about Europeans ??? (ok, I'm gonna get
me some coffee and will try again...)
Hussein B
But this critisim looks so serious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_programming_language#Criticism
Python.Arno
It's a compliment, we don't put McDonalds & Coca cola on just
anything ;)
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
>I'm afraid I don't get the joke about Europeans ??? (ok, I'm gonna get
>me some coffee and will try again...)
I think what was meant is:
Python has a strong following in Europe and a lot of Europeans are
participating in either Python itself or core modules. Europeans in general
tend to be less involved in spin doctoring/marketing.
--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
Embrace Love, be godlike...
Lie
> Hey,
> I'm a Java/Java EE developer and I'm playing with Python these days.
> I like the Python language so much and I like its communities and the
> Django framework.
> to join them.
> to stop learning Python and concentrate on Ruby/Rails.
A real programmer can learn as much language as he pleases and tell
him that concentrating on one language is always a bad idea, since
that narrows the mind and diversing language learning is great since
it allows you to think of a problem from different angles (especially
if the nature of the languages are very different, like one object
oriented language and one functional language and one procedural and
another dynamic language and another static language).
> The sad fact (at least to me), Ruby is getting a lot of attention
> these days.
I don't know, but the data (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/
paperinfo/tpci/index.html and http://www.langpop.com/) shows that
python is more popular than ruby in most cases, nearly by a factor of
two.
> Why Python isn't getting this attention although is a much more mature
> language and it is used by many big, big names?
> And do I dare to say it is much more charming?
> What do you think of Ruby/Rails? do they worth learning and working
> with?
Yes, every language have its own good and bad (yeah, even assembly). I
have only brushed Ruby once though, so I can't give detailed
explanation about it. A good teacher would encourage his students to
learn from other masters even though he might be one of the most
prominent expert in the subject, a good teacher would even encourage
his students to learn from sides that opposed his side of view (learn
from your enemy[1]).
[1] The usage of the word "enemy" is over-exaggerated.
> Any way, I'm not leaving Python and I will try to study it every time
> I get a chance...
> Thanks.
Bruno Desthuilliers
(snip)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_programming_language#Criticism
Most of what's written here could apply to Python too - all the part
which mostly reflects the usual paranoďa from bondage&discipline
langages addicts wrt/ dynamic languages. The remaining is about
implementation issues in ruby 1.8.
castironpi
<bdesth.quelquech...@free.quelquepart.fr> wrote:
> Hussein B a écrit :
> (snip)
>
> > But this critisim looks so serious:
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_programming_language#Criticism
>
> the usual paranoïa from bondage&discipline language addicts
Ooo... well said.
Sonolin
> Hey,
> I'm a Java/Java EE developer and I'm playing with Python these days.
> I like the Python language so much and I like its communities and the
> Django framework.
> My friends are about to open a Ruby/Rails shop and they are asking me
> to join them.
> I don't know what, sure I'm not leaving Java, but they are asking me
> to stop learning Python and concentrate on Ruby/Rails.
> these days.
> language and it is used by many big, big names?
> And do I dare to say it is much more charming?
> What do you think of Ruby/Rails? do they worth learning and working
> with?
> I get a chance...
> Thanks.
Generally when developing something these days (Web App or not) I have
found that the programming language really does not have a huge affect
on the success of the product. If the developers are dedicated, they
can generally make most programming languages work. It just comes
down to what you prefer, or if something clearly is better than the
others use it if at all possible. For example, when programming a
game, you could easily code it in Python, or C++. Sure, C++ would be
faster, but sometimes these days speed is not a large factor. And you
can always just code the complex calculations in C, and the rest in
Python.
So, in short, if you are up to the challenge - take it. I do not know
Ruby (at ALL), but if some of my friends wanted to develop a RoR app I
would not turn them down for the language choice (Ruby). There has
been successful Web Apps made in Ruby, Python, PHP, Perl, Java, etc. -
they all have their place. I would much rather code in Python than in
PHP, but most of my Web Programming is done in PHP due to client
preference.
And as for being afraid of "abandoning" Python... I know many
programming languages, and have not abandoned my favorites. Just
because I know how to code in Visual Basic does not mean I do
regularly.
Hopefully this made some sense - pretty tired ;)
--
Hussein B
> (snip)
>
> > But this critisim looks so serious:
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_programming_language#Criticism
>
> Most of what's written here could apply to Python too - all the part
> langages addicts wrt/ dynamic languages. The remaining is about
> implementation issues in ruby 1.8.
Ruby doesn't has the language specification, do you think this is an
issue or a weak point?
Bruno Desthuilliers
> On Aug 15, 10:05 am, Bruno Desthuilliers
> <bdesth.quelquech...@free.quelquepart.fr> wrote:
>> Hussein B a écrit :
>> (snip)
>>
>>> But this critisim looks so serious:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_programming_language#Criticism
>> Most of what's written here could apply to Python too - all the part
>> langages addicts wrt/ dynamic languages. The remaining is about
>> implementation issues in ruby 1.8.
>
> Ruby doesn't has the language specification, do you think this is an
> issue or a weak point?
Unless you are trying to roll your own Ruby implementation, I don't
think this is really an issue...