Greetings, My copy of the second edition of Chun's "Core Python Programming" just arrived from Amazon on Friday. What really jumped out at me is an interesting feature about how it sequences its topics, namely, (user-defined) functions are not introduced until chapter 11, fully 400 pages into the book. This contrasts strongly with a traditional "Introduction to language X" book which has a chapter sequence roughy like:
The exact details vary from book to book and language to language of course, but usually the above topics are covered in the first 100-150 pages since it is hard to do anything interesting until all of these tools are under your belt. Chun's book by contrast is able, on the strength of Python's built-in functions, to cover a fair amount of relatively interesting things (dictionaries, file IO, exception handling, etc.) before introducing user-defined functions.
I don't want to read too much into this, but the mere fact that it is possible to write a Python book in this fashion seems to confirm the "batteries are included" philosophy of Python. Perhaps there is less need to learn how to roll your own batteries as soon as possible.
I would consider that an omission. Functions are very important in Python. I think the user/reader should see the _def_ and _class_ statement fairly soon in the introduction. The name of the book is thus somewhat misleading, because functions are at the "core" of Python.
Functions should be right there with the integers, strings, files, lists and dictionaries. Another important point to stress, in my opinion, is that functions are first-class objects. In other words functions can be passes around just like strings and numbers!
John Coleman wrote: > Greetings, > My copy of the second edition of Chun's "Core Python Programming" > just arrived from Amazon on Friday. What really jumped out at me is an > interesting feature about how it sequences its topics, namely, > (user-defined) functions are not introduced until chapter 11, fully 400 > pages into the book. This contrasts strongly with a traditional > "Introduction to language X" book which has a chapter sequence roughy > like:
> The exact details vary from book to book and language to language of > course, but usually the above topics are covered in the first 100-150 > pages since it is hard to do anything interesting until all of these > tools are under your belt. Chun's book by contrast is able, on the > strength of Python's built-in functions, to cover a fair amount of > relatively interesting things (dictionaries, file IO, exception > handling, etc.) before introducing user-defined functions.
> I don't want to read too much into this, but the mere fact that it is > possible to write a Python book in this fashion seems to confirm the > "batteries are included" philosophy of Python. Perhaps there is less > need to learn how to roll your own batteries as soon as possible.
Nick Vatamaniuc wrote: > I would consider that an omission. Functions are very important in > Python. I think the user/reader should see the _def_ and _class_ > statement fairly soon in the introduction. The name of the book is > thus somewhat misleading, because functions are at the "core" of > Python.
A is not ommitted from DBECAFG - it just appears in a non-standard order. If the book simply ommitted functions then it would be a shocking ommission. As it is, it is just a curious way of sequencing topics. Functions are in chapter 11 out of 23 chapters - sounds like the "core" of the book to me.
Chun does emphasize the first-class status of functions in Python - something which is fairly important to me since I have dabbled on and off with functional programming the last few years (mostly SML) and am interested in seeing the extend to which Python is genuinely "multi-paradigm" - able to blend the functional and imperative (and OO) paradigms together.
Nick Vatamaniuc wrote: > I would consider that an omission. Functions are very important in > Python. I think the user/reader should see the _def_ and _class_ > statement fairly soon in the introduction. The name of the book is > thus somewhat misleading, because functions are at the "core" of > Python.
> Functions should be right there with the integers, strings, files, > lists and dictionaries. Another important point to stress, in my > opinion, is that functions are first-class objects. In other words > functions can be passes around just like strings and numbers!
> -Nick Vatamaniuc
> John Coleman wrote: > > Greetings, > > My copy of the second edition of Chun's "Core Python Programming" > > just arrived from Amazon on Friday. What really jumped out at me is an > > interesting feature about how it sequences its topics, namely, > > (user-defined) functions are not introduced until chapter 11, fully 400 > > pages into the book. This contrasts strongly with a traditional > > "Introduction to language X" book which has a chapter sequence roughy > > like:
> > The exact details vary from book to book and language to language of > > course, but usually the above topics are covered in the first 100-150 > > pages since it is hard to do anything interesting until all of these > > tools are under your belt. Chun's book by contrast is able, on the > > strength of Python's built-in functions, to cover a fair amount of > > relatively interesting things (dictionaries, file IO, exception > > handling, etc.) before introducing user-defined functions.
> > I don't want to read too much into this, but the mere fact that it is > > possible to write a Python book in this fashion seems to confirm the > > "batteries are included" philosophy of Python. Perhaps there is less > > need to learn how to roll your own batteries as soon as possible.
John Coleman wrote: > A is not ommitted from DBECAFG - it just appears in a non-standard > order. If the book simply ommitted functions then it would be a > shocking ommission. As it is, it is just a curious way of sequencing > topics. Functions are in chapter 11 out of 23 chapters - sounds like > the "core" of the book to me.
> Chun does emphasize the first-class status of functions in Python - > something which is fairly important to me since I have dabbled on and > off with functional programming the last few years (mostly SML) and am > interested in seeing the extend to which Python is genuinely > "multi-paradigm" - able to blend the functional and imperative (and OO) > paradigms together.
> -John Coleman
> Nick Vatamaniuc wrote: > > I would consider that an omission. Functions are very important in > > Python. I think the user/reader should see the _def_ and _class_ > > statement fairly soon in the introduction. The name of the book is > > thus somewhat misleading, because functions are at the "core" of > > Python.
> > Functions should be right there with the integers, strings, files, > > lists and dictionaries. Another important point to stress, in my > > opinion, is that functions are first-class objects. In other words > > functions can be passes around just like strings and numbers!
> > -Nick Vatamaniuc
> > John Coleman wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > My copy of the second edition of Chun's "Core Python Programming" > > > just arrived from Amazon on Friday. What really jumped out at me is an > > > interesting feature about how it sequences its topics, namely, > > > (user-defined) functions are not introduced until chapter 11, fully 400 > > > pages into the book. This contrasts strongly with a traditional > > > "Introduction to language X" book which has a chapter sequence roughy > > > like:
> > > The exact details vary from book to book and language to language of > > > course, but usually the above topics are covered in the first 100-150 > > > pages since it is hard to do anything interesting until all of these > > > tools are under your belt. Chun's book by contrast is able, on the > > > strength of Python's built-in functions, to cover a fair amount of > > > relatively interesting things (dictionaries, file IO, exception > > > handling, etc.) before introducing user-defined functions.
> > > I don't want to read too much into this, but the mere fact that it is > > > possible to write a Python book in this fashion seems to confirm the > > > "batteries are included" philosophy of Python. Perhaps there is less > > > need to learn how to roll your own batteries as soon as possible.
I don't normally read programming books -- just use the chapters that I need when I need them, unless of course there is a clever plot twist coming up ahead (for ex.: "Next: The revenge of lambdas. Will they stay or will they go?" ;-)
Why? Have you read it from beginning to end. What did you think about functions being introduced later than files and exceptions?
> > I would consider that an omission. Functions are very important in > > Python. I think the user/reader should see the _def_ and _class_ > > statement fairly soon in the introduction. The name of the book is > > thus somewhat misleading, because functions are at the "core" of > > Python.
I must say I find Wesley Chun's explanations to be most understandable. I cant' exactly figure out why yet, but he has a way of explaining something, like, say, decorators, that in minimal words elucidates for me the intent behind why they are useful. That helps me understand how they work. I just finished reading the chapter on Functions for the book, I guess I was partly prompted by this thread on the newsgroup. it was a *very* quick read, I could scan quickly but gain a better understanding of the whole topic of functions in Python, including inner functions, closures, decorators, continuations, and coroutines. Talk about bang for the buck, that half hour to 45 minutes of reading new chapter in Wesley Chun's new book was the best investment of time i have made in quite a while.
I really like this book. I really, really, really like it.
John Coleman wrote: > Greetings, > My copy of the second edition of Chun's "Core Python Programming" > just arrived from Amazon on Friday. What really jumped out at me is an > interesting feature about how it sequences its topics, namely, > (user-defined) functions are not introduced until chapter 11, fully 400 > pages into the book. This contrasts strongly with a traditional
<snip>
Pages 48-50 is a section titled: 'Functions' and he gives both a top level description and example. True he does not have a chapter devoted to functions still page 400, but he does give examples of usage along the way.
John Coleman wrote: > Greetings, > My copy of the second edition of Chun's "Core Python Programming" > just arrived from Amazon on Friday.
Who would you say the book is aimed at? Advanced programmers? I thought about getting it, but I'm not sure if it will be either 1) too much repetition of the basics I've already learned (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), or 2) too advanced for me right now.
John Salerno wrote: > John Coleman wrote: > > Greetings, > > My copy of the second edition of Chun's "Core Python Programming" > > just arrived from Amazon on Friday.
> Who would you say the book is aimed at? Advanced programmers? I thought > about getting it, but I'm not sure if it will be either 1) too much > repetition of the basics I've already learned (which isn't necessarily a > bad thing), or 2) too advanced for me right now.
> Thanks.
It strikes me as being aimed at intermediate programmers who don't have much familiarity with Python. I bought it since my only other book on Python ("Learning Python" by Lutz) is somewhat dated now and because I find that I'm a slow learner and it usually takes me a couple of books by independent authors to "get" a language. The publisher's page is more informative than what you see on Amazon. You can see the table of contents and read a sample chapter there to help you decide if the book is for you: http://vig.prenhall.com/catalog/academic/product/1,4096,0130260363,00...
John Coleman wrote: > John Salerno wrote: > > John Coleman wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > My copy of the second edition of Chun's "Core Python Programming" > > > just arrived from Amazon on Friday.
> > Who would you say the book is aimed at? Advanced programmers? I thought > > about getting it, but I'm not sure if it will be either 1) too much > > repetition of the basics I've already learned (which isn't necessarily a > > bad thing), or 2) too advanced for me right now.
> > Thanks.
> It strikes me as being aimed at intermediate programmers who don't have > much familiarity with Python. I bought it since my only other book on > Python ("Learning Python" by Lutz) is somewhat dated now and because I > find that I'm a slow learner and it usually takes me a couple of books > by independent authors to "get" a language. The publisher's page is > more informative than what you see on Amazon. You can see the table of > contents and read a sample chapter there to help you decide if the book > is for you: > http://vig.prenhall.com/catalog/academic/product/1,4096,0130260363,00...
John Coleman wrote: > John Coleman wrote: >> John Salerno wrote: >>> John Coleman wrote: >>>> Greetings, >>>> My copy of the second edition of Chun's "Core Python Programming" >>>> just arrived from Amazon on Friday. >>> Who would you say the book is aimed at? Advanced programmers? I thought >>> about getting it, but I'm not sure if it will be either 1) too much >>> repetition of the basics I've already learned (which isn't necessarily a >>> bad thing), or 2) too advanced for me right now.
>>> Thanks. >> It strikes me as being aimed at intermediate programmers who don't have >> much familiarity with Python. I bought it since my only other book on >> Python ("Learning Python" by Lutz) is somewhat dated now and because I >> find that I'm a slow learner and it usually takes me a couple of books >> by independent authors to "get" a language. The publisher's page is >> more informative than what you see on Amazon. You can see the table of >> contents and read a sample chapter there to help you decide if the book >> is for you: >> http://vig.prenhall.com/catalog/academic/product/1,4096,0130260363,00...
thanks to those above for the kind remarks. tackling comments and questions, not quite in chronological order. :-)
> Who would you say the book is aimed at? Advanced programmers?
this book is targeted towards technical professionals already literate in another high-level language who wants to pick up Python as quickly as possible. it is not a topical coverage of a programming language's features. you know how after learning a new language, it takes a few months to really "feel comfortable" enough to *not* pick up a book in order to commence writing code? my goal is to reduce that time period while provide the reader a comprehensive understanding of how the standard types work, esp. in their relationship to Python's memory model. it is my belief that a solid foundation here will reduce or eliminate any potential bugs you would've written had you read a more conventional introductory text.
> What really jumped out at me is an interesting feature about how > it sequences its topics, namely, (user-defined) functions are not > introduced until chapter 11, fully 400 pages into the book.
i guess i found this post quite interesting because there is such a focus on "what should be introduced when." the purpose of chapter 2 (getting started) is to proxy for the standard "introduction to programming X" book. if you read it, you should be able to "get started in Python" immediately. you have enough info on functions to start coding and probably don't need var args, decorators, or any of that stuff yet. the chapter on functions occur later because most of the time, what we've shown you in "getting started" is enough to, ummm..., get you started, and that all successive chapters are meant to dive more deeply into each area.
> seems to confirm the "batteries are included" philosophy of > Python. Perhaps there is less need to learn how to roll your > own batteries as soon as possible.
this is definitely one of the hallmarks of the language. the current user base already knows this... it's just more difficult to get this out there to the general programming populus, esp. when there are already so many languages starting with "P". :-)
> The revenge of lambdas. Will they stay or will they go?" ;-)
they will stay. ;-)
> am interested in seeing the extend to which Python is genuinely > "multi-paradigm" - able to blend the functional and imperative > (and OO) paradigms together.
this comes from guido himself. he "wants you to be able to see the forest through the trees." i see Python as a "greatest hits" of many computer programming languages. for our benefit, he's given us the best stuff.
> I cant' exactly figure out why yet, but he has a way of explaining > something, like, say, decorators, that in minimal words elucidates > for me the intent behind why they are useful. That helps me > understand how they work.
"Python fits your brain." (bruce eckel) i don't see why python should have a monopoly on your brain. i want me share too. ;-) the thing that makes writing a pleasurable is when the language has so much to offer. i use this book in teaching my python courses, and the book mirrors my lecturing style. i suppose that rather than a dry college textbook, i'd rather write in a way as if i was having a conversation with you, or if you were actually sitting there attending one of my courses. readers (as well as course attendees) have remarked how questions they may come up with as they are learning a topic are answered in the next section or chapter (or 3-4 presentation slides) as the case may be.
> The second edition site doesn't give a sample chapter (but > does give the complete preface)
ahhh, the secret here is that you need to look in the right place. "prentice hall"s web page doesn't have it, but PHPTR's does, even if they are the same publishing house. for some reason, we've got the featured book of the month!! just go to http://phptr.com and click the book's link there. you'll find:
- book's description - table of contents - preface - sample chapter (getting started, chapter 2!) - index
the last three are in PDF format. if for some reason, october ends and it's gone from the front page, here is a direct link:
thanks to everyone for their support, esp. my excellent technical reviewers for keeping me honest! please send comments, suggestions, corrections, and other feedback to me. i am happy to hear about any issues you find in the book -- everything. it doesn't matter if it is the smallest grammatical edit, errors in the code, or just plain wrong or misleading information. don't believe everything you read! (sometimes writing at 2, 3, and 4a in the morning does something to your writing when you're trying to tackle a publisher's deadlines.) keep checking the book's errata page at http://corepython.com all book correspondence should go to corepython at yahoo dot com.
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