3D apps in Python?
Brandon J. Van Every
Not Python scripted, but rather, Python as the primary means of development,
dropping to C++ or C only when necessary for efficiency. Any pointers
appreciated. Surveys of leading open source 3D engines, such as Nebula and
Crystal Space, haven't yielded anything. I'm now starting to look at
non-game applications.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur
DH
> I am looking for open source 3D applications written primarily in Python.
Hi, you might search for applications built using pygame and pyopengl.
See also vpython.
Mike C. Fletcher
is written in Python:
* Alice -- I believe early versions used to be written in Python to
a Direct3D API, think they've been moving away from that in later
versions, possibly toward a Java implementation?
* OpenGLContext -- my testing/demo environment for PyOpenGL, which
is based loosely on a VRML97 scenegraph model (and includes simple
VRML97 loaders and the like).
o Provides Transform,Group,Switch,
PointLight,SpotLight,DirectionalLight, Background, Shape,
Appearance, Material, ImageTexture, TextureTransform,
IndexedFaceSet, IndexedLineSet, PointSet, Box, Sphere, Text,
FontStyle, Polyline2D, NurbsCurve2D, Contour2D,
NurbsSurface,TrimmedSurface, and NurbsCurve nodes (some with
only partial support, it should be noted)
o Has basic navigation, polygon tessellation, transparency and
selection passes
* ZOE is apparently written in Python, never played with it. Claims
to focus on wireframes and particle systems.
* VisualPython (VPython) may have some significant portion of the
code in Python, but I can't say how much (or indeed whether there
is any).
However, these engines (save maybe ZOE, about which I know next to
nothing) are focused primarily on teaching, rather than game or
application development. Particularly given your legendarily high
standards, I think you'll find that none are sufficient for your needs
wrt building practical 3D apps in Python. The collective wisdom on that
would seem to be "wrap a C/C++ engine if you need any sort of
interactive speed on a non-trivial application".
If you do find any other engines, consider adding them to the list here:
http://www.py3d.org/py3d_zwiki/Python3dLinks
(the formatting is messed up, but the information is often useful).
Take care,
Mike
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>I am looking for open source 3D applications written primarily in Python.
>Not Python scripted, but rather, Python as the primary means of development,
>dropping to C++ or C only when necessary for efficiency. Any pointers
>appreciated. Surveys of leading open source 3D engines, such as Nebula and
>Crystal Space, haven't yielded anything. I'm now starting to look at
>non-game applications.
>
>
_______________________________________
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
http://members.rogers.com/mcfletch/
Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy)
He's ba-ack ...
Tim Delaney
François Pinard
> > From: Brandon J. Van Every
> He's ba-ack ...
:-).
Indeed. The pattern is always the same. Some innocuous question or
remark at the start, and the progressive build up of inflammatory
contents as replies and exchanges go. Hoping that newcomers to the
Python list will resist falling in the various traps, this time :-),
it might nevertheless be interesting to observe the mechanics of the
degradation, at least in the very beginnings of it. As usual, it will
soon become annoying and noisy! Sigh!
--
François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard
Brandon J. Van Every
>
> However, these engines (save maybe ZOE, about which I know next to
> nothing) are focused primarily on teaching, rather than game or
> application development. Particularly given your legendarily high
> standards, I think you'll find that none are sufficient for your needs
> wrt building practical 3D apps in Python. The collective wisdom on
> that would seem to be "wrap a C/C++ engine if you need any sort of
> interactive speed on a non-trivial application".
Yes, that is looking like the task before me. I haven't found 3D anything -
app, engine, whatever - that is truly Python-oriented for its development.
Python is viewed by the 3D world as a scripting language, not a development
language.
> If you do find any other engines, consider adding them to the list
> here: http://www.py3d.org/py3d_zwiki/Python3dLinks
> (the formatting is messed up, but the information is often useful).
Thanks for this link. Somehow, I have missed it in all the archive and
Google hunting.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"Troll" - (n.) Anything you don't like.
Usage: "He's just a troll."
Erik Max Francis
> Yes, that is looking like the task before me. I haven't found 3D
> anything -
> app, engine, whatever - that is truly Python-oriented for its
> development.
> Python is viewed by the 3D world as a scripting language, not a
> development
> language.
Why is this the task before you? Why do you care if a project using
Python is completely Python is written in C or C++ for the bits that
have to be optimized? Why do you care how Python is viewed in the 3D
world, for whatever reason?
You've been "evaluating" Python for months and months now, though your
form of "evaluation" seems to be choosing arbitrary and useless criteria
and then demanding that people prove to you that Python meets them for
unspecified goals. You make up your mind before you start (knowing
nothing about Python in the first place), then look publicly for reasons
that match up with your preordained conclusion, annoying people who
might otherwise have helped you along the way. Hell, at one point you
were most of the way through evaluating Python for use with AI and
hadn't even considered whether Python had floating point support yet!
You keep dismissing Python but then bizarrely coming back to it. Isn't
it about time to poop or get off the pot? Pick a straightforward but
non-trivial project in Python and _do_ it. All you're doing now is
running in circles, wasting your own time, and annoying everyone you
encounter in the process.
Python is a very easy language to use and learn, and it's very powerful.
Someone who claims to be fluent in C++ should have no problem learning
the fundamentals in an afternoon, becoming proficient in a week, and
becoming blindingly productive within a month. So why haven't you?
--
__ Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ Time is a storm in which we are all lost.
-- George Bernard Shaw
Erik Max Francis
> Indeed. The pattern is always the same. Some innocuous question or
> remark at the start, ...
Well, it's usually innocuous on its face, but look a little deeper and
you see that really he's just looking for a fight. Take this thread as
a good example; it seems reasonable enough to ask for examples of
all-Python 3D applications, but even by his first reply we see where
he's coming from: He's implicitly asserting that Python is unsuitable
for this and demanding that other people prove to him otherwise. Blah
blah blah, scripting language, not a development language, yadda yadda
yadda.
(Whether it is or isn't suitable for this task is a separate question,
but this is a lousy way to start a fact-finding search.)
Erik Max Francis
> * ZOE is apparently written in Python, never played with it.
> Claims
> to focus on wireframes and particle systems.
ZOE is indeed all-Python, using PyOpenGL. It's designed to be very
minimal (you could certainly do non-wireframe stuff but that's not what
I use it for). It's really a very simple engine designed to allow you
to create objects that know how to display themselves, group transform a
bunch at a time, and create particle system behavior. It's minimal
enough that I can run it without hardware 3D acceleration with decent
framerates.
I created it so that I could do visualizations with some of my own
projects, and decided to release it since it's generic.
> However, these engines (save maybe ZOE, about which I know next to
> nothing) are focused primarily on teaching, rather than game or
> application development.
It would be fair to put ZOE in the same category. It's for rapid
prototyping and simple visualization, not serious 3D application
development.
--
__ Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ You are inspiration to my life / You are the reason why I smile
-- India Arie
DH
> François Pinard wrote:
>
>
>>Indeed. The pattern is always the same. Some innocuous question or
>>remark at the start, ...
>
>
> Well, it's usually innocuous on its face, but look a little deeper and
> you see that really he's just looking for a fight. Take this thread as
> a good example; it seems reasonable enough to ask for examples of
> all-Python 3D applications, but even by his first reply we see where
> he's coming from: He's implicitly asserting that Python is unsuitable
> for this and demanding that other people prove to him otherwise. Blah
> blah blah, scripting language, not a development language, yadda yadda
> yadda.
>
> (Whether it is or isn't suitable for this task is a separate question,
> but this is a lousy way to start a fact-finding search.)
What a sick fuck. Now I know why they call people like him trolls.
This guy has 1600 newsgroup posts in the past year with one email address:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&safe=off&q=author:try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname%40yahoo.com+>
and before that had 5000 with another email address:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&safe=off&q=author:vanevery%403DProgrammer.com+>
Brad
> François Pinard wrote:
>
>
>> Indeed. The pattern is always the same. Some innocuous question or
>> remark at the start, ...
>
>
>
> Well, it's usually innocuous on its face, but look a little deeper and
> you see that really he's just looking for a fight. Take this thread as
> a good example; it seems reasonable enough to ask for examples of
> all-Python 3D applications, but even by his first reply we see where
> he's coming from: He's implicitly asserting that Python is unsuitable
> for this and demanding that other people prove to him otherwise. Blah
> blah blah, scripting language, not a development language, yadda yadda
> yadda.
>
> (Whether it is or isn't suitable for this task is a separate question,
> but this is a lousy way to start a fact-finding search.)
Bjoern Paschen
> What a sick fuck. Now I know why they call people like him trolls.
Chris Herborth
> I am looking for open source 3D applications written primarily in Python.
> Not Python scripted, but rather, Python as the primary means of development,
> dropping to C++ or C only when necessary for efficiency. Any pointers
> appreciated. Surveys of leading open source 3D engines, such as Nebula and
> Crystal Space, haven't yielded anything. I'm now starting to look at
> non-game applications.
A couple of years ago I started writing a simple tile-based game engine
(think overhead-view like Ultima V... actually, I was using the sprites from
Ultima V as textures :-) entirely in Python.
It was running at an acceptable speed even on lousy hardware (8MB ATI Rage
Mobility-P in my old Pentium II 233MHz laptop).
I know several commercial games, such as Freedom Force, use Python for
scripting, but I'm pretty sure the main engine is entirely C/C++.
--
Chris Herborth chr...@cryptocard.com
Documentation Overlord, CRYPTOCard Corp. http://www.cryptocard.com/
Never send a monster to do the work of an evil scientist.
Postatem obscuri lateris nescitis.
Chris Herborth
> This guy has 1600 newsgroup posts in the past year with one email address:
> <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&safe=off&q=author:try_vanevery_at_mycompanyname%40yahoo.com+>
>
> and before that had 5000 with another email address:
> <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&safe=off&q=author:vanevery%403DProgrammer.com+>
With all that time on his hands, he should develop a nice Python 3D engine...
Lee Harr
>> Claims
>> to focus on wireframes and particle systems.
>
> ZOE is indeed all-Python, using PyOpenGL. It's designed to be very
> minimal (you could certainly do non-wireframe stuff but that's not what
> I use it for). It's really a very simple engine designed to allow you
> to create objects that know how to display themselves, group transform a
> bunch at a time, and create particle system behavior. It's minimal
> enough that I can run it without hardware 3D acceleration with decent
> framerates.
>
> I created it so that I could do visualizations with some of my own
> projects, and decided to release it since it's generic.
>
ZOE (http://www.alcyone.com/software/zoe/) looks really nice.
Erik Max Francis
> ZOE (http://www.alcyone.com/software/zoe/) looks really nice.
Thanks, although I never would have suspected someone would describe it
as "nice." I was expecting more along the lines of, "So what?" :-)
--
__ Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ The meaning of life is that it stops.
-- Franz Kafka
Peter Harris
> A couple of years ago I started writing a simple tile-based game engine
> (think overhead-view like Ultima V... actually, I was using the sprites
> from Ultima V as textures :-) entirely in Python.
>
> It was running at an acceptable speed even on lousy hardware (8MB ATI
> Rage Mobility-P in my old Pentium II 233MHz laptop).
>
> I know several commercial games, such as Freedom Force, use Python for
> scripting, but I'm pretty sure the main engine is entirely C/C++.
>
I'm messing about with OpenGL at the moment. The control language
doesn't matter much for performance IMO. If you cache complex stuff in
display lists, and make liberal use of glDrawArrays() etc, your OpenGL
implementation is going to be doing all the heavy lifting.
And I do NOT want a long edit-compile-test cycle when I'm working that
stuff out for the first time. Python, of course, is perfect for exploring.
Peter Harris
Cousin Stanley
Erik ....
I'd also like to add a word of thanks
for making your ZOE packagae and examples available ....
The included Linear Algebra module, la.py,
is very nice in itself and will probably be useful
to me in the future ....
--
Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona
Erik Max Francis
> I'd also like to add a word of thanks
> for making your ZOE packagae and examples available ....
Thanks, glad you like it. I didn't know that anyone had even looked at
it until this thread :-).
> The included Linear Algebra module, la.py,
> is very nice in itself and will probably be useful
> to me in the future ....
Yes, I've used it in other things as well. I'll likely release it as a
separate module under the public domain.
--
__ Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/ \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
\__/ When you talk to her / Talk to her
-- India Arie
Brandon J. Van Every
> On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:04:16 -0800, "Brandon J. Van Every"
> <try_vanevery_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I am looking for open source 3D applications written primarily in
>> Python. Not Python scripted, but rather, Python as the primary means
>> of development, dropping to C++ or C only when necessary for
>
> http://www.cgl.ucsf.edu/chimera/
Thanks for the link. It does demonstrate heavy Python usage for 3D
graphics; pity it is freely licensed only for noncommercial use.
http://www.cgl.ucsf.edu/chimera/docs/licensing.html
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"Trollhunt" - (n.) A searching out for persecution
of persons accused of Trolling. (c.f. witch-hunt)
Andrew Dalke
> Thanks for the link. It does demonstrate heavy Python usage for 3D
> graphics; pity it is freely licensed only for noncommercial use.
> http://www.cgl.ucsf.edu/chimera/docs/licensing.html
Then in that realm see also:
VMD - C++ with embedded Tcl *and* Python, UIUC
PyMol - Python and C++, DeLano Scientific
PMV - almost all Python, Scripps
PyMol is definitely open source. The others have different
levels of souce accessibility. There's also visualization
programs like Vida from OpenEye which are commercial
w/o source code availability.
Andrew
da...@dalkescientific.com