On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:13:20 +0000, Jonathan Hogg <jonat...@onegoodidea.com> wrote: >On 28/1/2002 23:49, in article 83it9mghng....@panacea.canonical.org, "Kragen >Sitaker" <kra...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> These are problems, but they are not problems AppleScript solves.
>The only two sensible things I could get out of Timothy's manifesto was the >idea of GUI programs exposing their internal functionality through an >RPC-like mechanism, and that programming languages have a high entry cost >[...] >c.l.py isn't really the place for any of this
I think c.l.py is an approriate place tob discuss the entry costs of programming and how programming languages can be made easier. Think of why python is the way it is.
-- ===== Philip Hunt ===== ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk ===== * strong public-key email encryption * automatically decrypt incoming mail * automatically encrypt outgoing mail, including attachments and headers * automatically propagate your public key and manage others' public keys What encryption package does all this? Herbrip, part of the Herbivore project. <http://www.vision25.demon.co.uk/oss/herbivore/intro.html>
On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:47:45 -0500, Christopher Browne <cbbro...@acm.org> wrote: >Stefaan A Eeckels <Stefaan.Eeck...@ecc.lu> writes: >> On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:08:04 +0000 >> ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk (phil hunt) wrote: >>> Doesn't computer science deal with HCI and making computers easier >>> to use, then?
>> Maybe it's in the curriculum. If the current crop of programs is >> anything to go by, they could as well have left it out. In any >> case, it's about people, and how they react to devices (soft or >> hard). It's psychology, not comp.sci.
>Certainly HCI isn't part of _pure_ computer science,
Well it ought to be. The main problem with computers is getting them so that humans can interact with them more easily.
> and connecting it >requires a conscious connection to psychology.
>It surely doesn't fall into the traditional areas of CS: > - Algorithms > - Numerical Analysis > - Databases > - Languages
AFAICT languages are *purely* an HCI problem. Machine code is Turing- complete; therefore the *only* reason to have other languages is to make it easier for humans to use.
Databases are special cases of data structures; again the only reason why RDBMSs exist is because it's easier for people to do it that way than to code it trhermselves in assembler.
Algorithms and data structures are what languages do, so are strongly connected with the subject of languages.
>The Association for Computing Machinery, "the" CS organization, does >have an HCI group (called SIGCHI). It's only one of many special >interest groups.
>I'd argue that HCI is _properly_ a secondary concern in computer >science.
>Computer science is about understanding what computers are,
They are physicval realisations of turing machines. End of discussion; because that's all the discussion needed, and everything else they are flows from that (or is a special case of I/O).
> what they can be made to do,
anything, constrained by hardware limitations and the imagination/skill of the programmer.
>and how to accomplish those things.
by paying people like me a lot of money, hopefully!
-- ===== Philip Hunt ===== ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk ===== * strong public-key email encryption * automatically decrypt incoming mail * automatically encrypt outgoing mail, including attachments and headers * automatically propagate your public key and manage others' public keys What encryption package does all this? Herbrip, part of the Herbivore project. <http://www.vision25.demon.co.uk/oss/herbivore/intro.html>
>>>>> Timothy Rue writes: > On 28-Jan-02 13:26:36 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote: >> These are the things you'll need to take into account in developing >> a new language (or get others to help you develop it). > Well since the VIC is not a language I don't suppose I need be > concerned about such things as the things you presented.
Of course its a language. As you've already stated, it's a language consisting of 9 commands.
-- David Masterson dmaster AT synopsys DOT com Sr. R&D Engineer Synopsys, Inc. Software Engineering Sunnyvale, CA
On 29-Jan-02 11:06:40 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Timothy Rue writes: >> On 28-Jan-02 13:26:36 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote: >>> These are the things you'll need to take into account in developing >>> a new language (or get others to help you develop it). >> Well since the VIC is not a language I don't suppose I need be >> concerned about such things as the things you presented. >Of course its a language. As you've already stated, it's a language >consisting of 9 commands.
I didn't say that.
Think of it this way: as the concept of nothing having value (zero as a place holder along with the digits 1-9 ) was a very difficult concept for the people over a period of 300 years to grasp, perhaps so is this that I present. Only now we are at a period of much faster advancements.
But who would have the most trouble grasping what I've been presenting but those who have been programmed to think in terms that are not so able to so communicate what I'm on about.
It's not unusual in the computer industry to change the meaning of a word to mean something different or even the opposite of a words original definition. The word hacker is one such example.
But this that I'm on about, the definition stays as is, though the word or symbol sequences attached to the definitions are open to be changed.
--- *3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!* *~ ~ ~ Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!* Timothy Rue What's *DONE* in all we do? *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE* Email @ mailto:tim...@mindspring.com >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ ^<--------<----9----<--------<
>But who would have the most trouble grasping what I've been presenting >but those who have been programmed to think in...
Why are you spending your time telling us how we _think_? Why are you telling us about _us_? Why is it you feel the need to lecture about how you _perceive the universe_ instead of actually engaging the world in some way? Why is it you attempt to elicit our _approval_ for the vision in your mind's eye? Why is it you think you should proselytize about your _grandiose plans_?
> From: Timothy Rue [mailto:threes...@earthlink.net]
> On 29-Jan-02 11:06:40 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote: > >>>>>> Timothy Rue writes:
> >> On 28-Jan-02 13:26:36 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote:
> >>> These are the things you'll need to take into account in > developing > >>> a new language (or get others to help you develop it).
> >> Well since the VIC is not a language I don't suppose I need be > >> concerned about such things as the things you presented.
> >Of course its a language. As you've already stated, it's a language > >consisting of 9 commands.
> I didn't say that.
> [snip]
> But this that I'm on about, the definition stays as is, > though the word or > symbol sequences attached to the definitions are open to be changed.
OK - I give up too. I've done my best to understand what you're going on about, but so far as I can tell, everything you say means nothing. Seriously - I don't think I've read a single thing from you that, once you remove all the double-talk and nonsense, actually means anything.
I have just added you to my killfile. Any post from you will now be automatically deleted.
>>>>> Timothy Rue writes: > On 29-Jan-02 11:06:40 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote: >>>>>>> Timothy Rue writes: >>> On 28-Jan-02 13:26:36 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote: >>>> These are the things you'll need to take into account in developing >>>> a new language (or get others to help you develop it). >>> Well since the VIC is not a language I don't suppose I need be >>> concerned about such things as the things you presented. >> Of course its a language. As you've already stated, it's a language >> consisting of 9 commands. > I didn't say that. > Think of it this way: as the concept of nothing having value (zero > as a place holder along with the digits 1-9) was a very difficult > concept for the people over a period of 300 years to grasp, perhaps > so is this that I present. Only now we are at a period of much > faster advancements. > But who would have the most trouble grasping what I've been > presenting but those who have been programmed to think in terms that > are not so able to so communicate what I'm on about. > It's not unusual in the computer industry to change the meaning of a > word to mean something different or even the opposite of a words > original definition. The word hacker is one such example. > But this that I'm on about, the definition stays as is, though the > word or symbol sequences attached to the definitions are open to be > changed.
You're right. Given the way that you use (or don't use) language, what could I have been thinking of... 8-(
-- David Masterson dmaster AT synopsys DOT com Sr. R&D Engineer Synopsys, Inc. Software Engineering Sunnyvale, CA
On 29-Jan-02 23:48:46 Courageous <jkra...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>>But who would have the most trouble grasping what I've been presenting >>but those who have been programmed to think in... >Why are you spending your time telling us how we _think_? Why are you >telling us about _us_? Why is it you feel the need to lecture about >how you _perceive the universe_ instead of actually engaging the world >in some way? Why is it you attempt to elicit our _approval_ for the >vision in your mind's eye? Why is it you think you should proselytize >about your _grandiose plans_? >C//
What are you talking about?
This project is an open project, it's being done in pythn and under the GPL. The reason for it being done on in python is because python ia GPL compatable and is available on many platforms.
I came here seeking help to do this project but all I really have gotten is alot of resistance. What ever postitive productive comments there are have been buried in the negative.
There is work to be done and I not being the 40 hour a week programer some of you are, I certainly cannot produce the code as fast or as good as someone who is focused into it. Current I'm working 12 hour days in a field that has no hands one computer work.
What I do have is a prespective that can easily lead to producing an auto coding development environment.
I would think some people would be openly interested in this, in the GPL sense.
Only in the comp.lang.python the spectrum apparently runs into enough of the proprietary world that there is enough negativity being generated to try and bury the project.
You are contributing to that from what I recall.
I need people to help me code this thing. Phil Hunt is not one of those people to do so, as he has so stated. Yet he has contributed to this thread more than anyone, but in a negative connotation sort of way.
The problem you are complaining about is as much a choice of yours as it would be a choice of yours to help me code this thing.
I really don't care about anyone who is going to complain about such a request.
I need people to help code this. If you want to yell out that I looking to abuse other in doing this, then you do not understand because you do not want to.
I did not come here to debate. I came here seeking coding help.
If you don't like that, then I suppose you will attack me, as so many have. And I can't stop you.
But consider what it make you out to be.
--- *3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!* *~ ~ ~ Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!* Timothy Rue What's *DONE* in all we do? *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE* Email @ mailto:tim...@mindspring.com >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ ^<--------<----9----<--------<
>> From: Timothy Rue [mailto:threes...@earthlink.net]
>> On 29-Jan-02 11:06:40 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote: >> >>>>>> Timothy Rue writes:
>> >> On 28-Jan-02 13:26:36 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote:
>> >>> These are the things you'll need to take into account in >> developing >> >>> a new language (or get others to help you develop it).
>> >> Well since the VIC is not a language I don't suppose I need be >> >> concerned about such things as the things you presented.
>> >Of course its a language. As you've already stated, it's a language >> >consisting of 9 commands.
>> I didn't say that.
>> [snip]
>> But this that I'm on about, the definition stays as is, >> though the word or >> symbol sequences attached to the definitions are open to be changed. >OK - I give up too. I've done my best to understand what you're going on >about, but so far as I can tell, everything you say means nothing. Seriously >- I don't think I've read a single thing from you that, once you remove all >the double-talk and nonsense, actually means anything. >I have just added you to my killfile. Any post from you will now be >automatically deleted. >Tim Delaney
It's far from uncommon for some to make this sort of claim while not really doing it.
In any event one has to wonder what reason is it that you feel you need to announce your choice.
If I don't like someones postings, I don't read them. It's called will power.
--- *3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!* *~ ~ ~ Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!* Timothy Rue What's *DONE* in all we do? *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE* Email @ mailto:tim...@mindspring.com >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ ^<--------<----9----<--------<
>I did not come here to debate. I came here seeking coding help.
And instead, you encountered a world where God helps those who help themselves. Pump out 10 or 20 *THOUSAND* lines of well-written code (and bud, let me tell you: that's just to start) and then -- maaaaaybe -- there will be those interested in helping you.
Don't count on it, though.
You might consider something else, too: if someone came along and liked your stuff very much, why wouldn't they just take it, make it _their_ stuff, and shine you on?
>>>>>> Timothy Rue writes: >> On 29-Jan-02 11:06:40 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> Timothy Rue writes: >>>> On 28-Jan-02 13:26:36 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote: >>>>> These are the things you'll need to take into account in developing >>>>> a new language (or get others to help you develop it). >>>> Well since the VIC is not a language I don't suppose I need be >>>> concerned about such things as the things you presented. >>> Of course its a language. As you've already stated, it's a language >>> consisting of 9 commands. >> I didn't say that. >> Think of it this way: as the concept of nothing having value (zero >> as a place holder along with the digits 1-9) was a very difficult >> concept for the people over a period of 300 years to grasp, perhaps >> so is this that I present. Only now we are at a period of much >> faster advancements. >> But who would have the most trouble grasping what I've been >> presenting but those who have been programmed to think in terms that >> are not so able to so communicate what I'm on about. >> It's not unusual in the computer industry to change the meaning of a >> word to mean something different or even the opposite of a words >> original definition. The word hacker is one such example. >> But this that I'm on about, the definition stays as is, though the >> word or symbol sequences attached to the definitions are open to be >> changed. >You're right. Given the way that you use (or don't use) language, >what could I have been thinking of... 8-(
David, look around you, tell me that all you see is language. Objects and movement. I believe there is some qualifications as to what a language is composed of, in order to be identified as a language.
Language is abstraction, created in order to communicate, but it can never completely communicate reality. A pictures says a thousand words..... And that ain't language.
I recall hearing stories about how those who see auras a few hundred years ago were consider witches, today we have krillian photography that proves auras exist.
The point of this is that people are different and for me, what I preceive in the way of objects actions and movement is for me, normal.
The problem is that others don't have the same perceptions. The result is that there is alot of doubt I have about the intents of others and when they do irrational and illogical things while claiming to be computer programmers...... It doesn't help.
I don't claim to have any magical gifts, but I do see what I do regarding a configration of common actions and how extreamly useful it can be..
This project would move forward faster if people would chose to help. And the sooner it get more complete the sooner more can be explained by way of example.
The way I see it, there is need for a big switch statement of such that the the input can identify what, if any VIC command was given and what to so, what function to set in motion. I guess it would be something of a big parse statement. There is even something of an outline for this already, though mostly in arexx, a conversion to python would be helpful. If anyone would be interested in what has got to be simple and boring cut and past sort of task. My probelm is that I'm not sure how to do it in python.
Right now I pretty tired, after 12 hours of work building stuff in the world of 3D. Thinking in 2D right now is not easy. (2D being code).
Below is the beginning of that conversion and the /* is where the arexx code begins.
#! Python
# PK file array - VIC Dictionary # Setting the standard variables to defaults
/*==================================*/ /*Reading in the PK file. If no filename is present then read default. if default does not exist, warn and create*/
PKfilename = 0
/*check internal variables*/
IF vic.2.1 > '' THEN PKfilename = vic.2.1
ELSE DO
IF VIC.2.2 > '' THEN PKfilename = vic.2.2
END
/* If above fails try "default.pk" */
IF PKfilename = 0 THEN DO
IF EXISTS(vic.2.3) = 0 THEN DO
SAY 'WARNING: default PK file ('vic.2.3') not available. Creating It'
--- *3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!* *~ ~ ~ Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!* Timothy Rue What's *DONE* in all we do? *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE* Email @ mailto:tim...@mindspring.com >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ ^<--------<----9----<--------<
On 30-Jan-02 22:15:38 Courageous <jkra...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>>I did not come here to debate. I came here seeking coding help. >And instead, you encountered a world where God helps those who >help themselves. Pump out 10 or 20 *THOUSAND* lines of well-written >code (and bud, let me tell you: that's just to start) and then >-- maaaaaybe -- there will be those interested in helping you. >Don't count on it, though. >You might consider something else, too: if someone came along >and liked your stuff very much, why wouldn't they just take it, >make it _their_ stuff, and shine you on? >C//
I'm not interested in stroking your ego.
What sort of person, steals and shine on the victim?
IS that the kind of person you are? IS that the kind of people that are in this date time stamped public accessible archive called Usenet?
Or perhap it's not enough for you to realize what "natural laws of the physical phenomenon of hoe we use abstractions" really means. It's three for three of the top triplet of what cannot be patented.
Maybe the KNMVIC document/comment published by the USPTO still isn't enough for you?
But I'll tell you what, if you help write the code here in usenet, even I can't take that credit away from you. Nor would I want to. I insist people get credit for what they do. And unlike The cathederal and the bazzar, where one person seems to take the credit for the work of many others, I believe that thru the use of the unbiased date time stamping of usenet news posting and the archiving and accessibility, we have the best recording device to use for establishing who did what and when, right here.
Thanks to recent work by Google, you can now see the history of Linux, from the first Usenet Post by Linus about it, onward.
So while some complain by saying that I'm out to take advantage of programmers in trying to get them to write the code for me, the truth is nothing so rude. But rather one of sharing and even putting into this public recorder, something more valuable than...... well there is alot of garbage in negativity all thru Usenet.
--- *3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!* *~ ~ ~ Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!* Timothy Rue What's *DONE* in all we do? *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE* Email @ mailto:tim...@mindspring.com >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ ^<--------<----9----<--------<
On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 02:47:21 GMT, Timothy Rue <threes...@earthlink.net> wrote: >On 29-Jan-02 23:48:46 Courageous <jkra...@san.rr.com> wrote: >>>But who would have the most trouble grasping what I've been presenting >>>but those who have been programmed to think in...
>>Why are you spending your time telling us how we _think_? Why are you >>telling us about _us_? Why is it you feel the need to lecture about >>how you _perceive the universe_ instead of actually engaging the world >>in some way? Why is it you attempt to elicit our _approval_ for the >>vision in your mind's eye? Why is it you think you should proselytize >>about your _grandiose plans_?
>>C//
>What are you talking about?
>This project is an open project, it's being done in pythn and under the >GPL. The reason for it being done on in python is because python ia GPL >compatable and is available on many platforms.
>I came here seeking help to do this project but all I really have gotten >is alot of resistance. What ever postitive productive comments there are >have been buried in the negative.
Your communication skills are not good enough to explain your project to the programmer types that you are seeking help from. You have been adviced multiple times by multiple people of ways in which you could better communicate to the very people you wish to get help from.
You have two main options that I can see:
1. Produce a working prototype of some small part of the project. It must do something practical and must be simple to use, since you probably have all of five minutes in which the person who downloaded it will decide if it might be useful to them. Sample input is essential for this. The code itself *must* be well written (there have already been style complaints about the current code), otherwise the programmer who downloaded it will not bother looking at it again. Remember the programmer does not have to help you, and has many other things to do, if they can't work out how it works or don't like the code they will go and look for some other project to work on.
2. Write a specification of the project. If you want programmers to help then the spec has to be written for them. This meeans it needs both a concise summary and detailed explanations. Every decision and assumption must be justified in some way. Multiple use cases are needed, showing how the user would use the system, including sample inputs and outputs for real concrete problems. Again remember, the programmer does not have to help you, and has many other things to do, if they can't understand the spec they will go and look for some other project to work on.
The first option is more likely to get people interested as concrete working code is always preferred over just a spec.
Another thing to note, is that programmers will criticise things they don't think are right. This does not mean they think the entire idea is worthless, or that the person who made it is stupid/bad/whatever. It is just part of the programming culture. It is what happens when you spend 90% of your working time fixing problems caused by things like hard to read code, vague specifications, special cases, invalid assumptions, ambigious designs, and so on. In fact most programmers I know like it when people criticise their code or designs, since it means it can be fixed sooner - and anyone who has done software work knows that the sooner the better always. Of course it hurts your ego at the time, but programmers know it is for the best. Have a look at the archives a development mailing list, like linux-kernel or perl-porters, I think you'll find a lot of criticism - it is the way things work.
Programmers will focus with what is wrong with something and ignore the stuff they think is right. This is because they know 90% of their time and effort will be spent on the stuff they think is wrong. And the stuff that is right is right anyway, and thus doesn't need to be mentioned. If you want to work with programmers get used to being criticised and having the problems dwelt on and the working stuff ignored.
>There is work to be done and I not being the 40 hour a week programer some >of you are, I certainly cannot produce the code as fast or as good as >someone who is focused into it. Current I'm working 12 hour days in a >field that has no hands one computer work.
>What I do have is a prespective that can easily lead to producing an auto >coding development environment.
>I would think some people would be openly interested in this, in the GPL >sense.
If you answer people's criticisms with justifications or explanations or changes that they can understand, then you will have a much better chance of getting help. It is your job to explain why working on your project would be a good idea, and why it would be better than say contributing to python or working on encryption software.
People will criticise the one part of a good idea they don't like or understand. Give them a good answer and they'll work with you, treat them like a moron because they can't understand what you are saying and they'll move to the next project instead. Explaining things is not easy, you don't seem to have the skills required to explain things in the concrete terms that programmers require - in which case you can either learn how, or work on the code yourself and get help when it is completed enough that programmers can look at it and understand the project.
>Only in the comp.lang.python the spectrum apparently runs into enough of >the proprietary world that there is enough negativity being generated to >try and bury the project.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. No one is trying to bury the project. Some people think it is a useless pipe-dream that doesn't make any sense and they are possibly trying to move you along to some other forum (since this is off-topic for both these groups). Some people don't understand what you are trying to do at all, and do not understand the explanations you have given - they will often criticise a point they think they might understand to see if it generates a response they can understand. Your project is no where near complete enough for anyone to feel threatened by it and thus try and bury it.
>You are contributing to that from what I recall.
>I need people to help me code this thing. Phil Hunt is not one of those >people to do so, as he has so stated. Yet he has contributed to this >thread more than anyone, but in a negative connotation sort of way.
He has tried to get you to explain things so they can be understood. If you had followed his advice and presented a concrete example of the use of your project, then you may have got some volunteers by now.
Negative criticism and the responses to them are what make software projects work. If you can't handle negative feedback then don't try and get programmers to help you.
>The problem you are complaining about is as much a choice of yours as it >would be a choice of yours to help me code this thing.
>I really don't care about anyone who is going to complain about such a >request.
>I need people to help code this. If you want to yell out that I looking to >abuse other in doing this, then you do not understand because you do not >want to.
>I did not come here to debate. I came here seeking coding help.
This is a discuss group (gnu,misc.discuss anyway). It is not a place to seek coding help. If you don't want a debate don't post to a discussion forum. If comp.lang.python is like every other comp.lang group I know then it is also not a place to seek coding help - other than specific language problems (such as how do I convert a string into a number?).
>If you don't like that, then I suppose you will attack me, as so many >have. And I can't stop you.
>But consider what it make you out to be.
You just don't understand how programmers work. And until you do you won't find many willing to help you. In fact if someone did think your ideas were good they would probably just fork your code and do it themselves without your involvement - since you seem to be going out of your way to turn people off your project.
>>You might consider something else, too: if someone came along >>and liked your stuff very much, why wouldn't they just take it, >>make it _their_ stuff, and shine you on? >What sort of person, steals and shine on the victim?
You're contributing this to the public domain. How could it be stealing? You're missing the point: why would someone want to help _you_ when they could help themselves without troubling themselves with you?
>Thanks to recent work by Google, you can now see the history of Linux, >from the first Usenet Post by Linus about it, onward.
Linus' first message included a _working kernel_. Until you have similar accomplishments under your belt, knock off the narcissism.
>So while some complain by saying that I'm out to take advantage of >programmers in trying to...
You're still missing it. "Taking advantage" is just a pejorative. What is it about you and your ideas that would make a person or persons want to work with _you_ when they could just go it alone or work with those who can more clearly express their ideas and more productively reach their collective ends?
Look inward. The answers won't be found here, and they won't be found sparring with me or anyone else.
In article <2810.795T2138T13535728threes...@earthlink.net>,
Timothy Rue <threes...@earthlink.net> wrote: >This project is an open project, it's being done in pythn and under the >GPL. The reason for it being done on in python is because python ia GPL >compatable and is available on many platforms.
I think you're really making a mistake here. C# would be a much better choice for your language, for a number of reasons. I think the developer community is a lot better suited to this; you're already where they're going. The Python community is full of people who are going to be stuck in traditional models of software engineering, with traditional ideas about software quality; I just don't think they're the right people to go to with a new and yet untested idea.
-s -- Copyright 2001, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / se...@plethora.net $ chmod a+x /bin/laden Please do not feed or harbor the terrorists. C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon! Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/
On 31/1/2002 3:28, in article 8775.795T1852T13954726threes...@earthlink.net,
"Timothy Rue" <threes...@earthlink.net> wrote: > I recall hearing stories about how those who see auras a few hundred years > ago were consider witches, today we have krillian photography that proves > auras exist.
Unfortunately a poor example to prove your point with as Kirlian photography has been widely debunked. Kirlian photography proves that gas ionises in a strong electric field and then due to differences in moisture, temperature, and pressure, causes pretty patterns to appear on photographic plates.
"Timothy Rue" <threes...@earthlink.net> wrote in message > I came here seeking help to do this project but all I really have gotten > is alot of resistance. What ever postitive productive comments there are > have been buried in the negative.
On the contrary: you have gotten thousands of dollars worth of free advice and criticism. From what I have seen, you have rejected it all and instead done your best to dig out or even imagine bits of negativity buried within positive productive comments.
Look at how you responded to my well-intentioned (but obviously foolish) response to what I thought was your best writing up to that point: quote one line out of context (the way you keep accusing other of doing) and take the statement that I thought you had done something good as somehow threatening. So, I got your message and will not burden you with anything else, such as suggestions on how to improve the code you just posted.
>>>>> Timothy Rue writes: > Language is abstraction, created in order to communicate, but it can > never completely communicate reality. A pictures says a thousand > words..... And that ain't language.
Yes it is. Language exists in order to communicate an abstraction of reality from one entity (usually people, but it could also be animals) to another. That abstraction can be as simple as "hunger" to as complex as the theory of relativity. The same is true with pictures since they are also an abstraction of reality and are used to communicate what something (might have) looked like at some time. There are many pictographic languages around.
> This project would move forward faster if people would chose to > help. And the sooner it get more complete the sooner more can be > explained by way of example.
We *CANNOT* help if we cannot understand the abstraction of reality that this project represents. You must find the proper language by which to communicate that abstraction.
> #! Python
I don't know Python (yet), but I think I get the idea.
> # PK file array - VIC Dictionary > # Setting the standard variables to defaults
For brevity, I'm going to cut out your code and simply comment on it.
> vic = {
* Your case statement doesn't provide any info on what the VIC is supposed to do. It appears to be merely creating an array.
> # Test!!!
* Your test is merely a printout of various array items -- again, no info on what the VIC is supposed to do.
> /*Reading in the PK file.
* Okay, I assume you get some information from the PK file, but I see nothing to tell me what it's supposed to contain.
> > Language is abstraction, created in order to communicate, but it can > > never completely communicate reality. A pictures says a thousand > > words..... And that ain't language.
> Yes it is. Language exists in order to communicate an abstraction of > reality from one entity (usually people, but it could also be animals) > to another. That abstraction can be as simple as "hunger" to as > complex as the theory of relativity. The same is true with pictures > since they are also an abstraction of reality and are used to > communicate what something (might have) looked like at some time. > There are many pictographic languages around.
> > This project would move forward faster if people would chose to > > help. And the sooner it get more complete the sooner more can be > > explained by way of example.
> We *CANNOT* help if we cannot understand the abstraction of reality > that this project represents. You must find the proper language by > which to communicate that abstraction.
> > #! Python
> I don't know Python (yet), but I think I get the idea.
Neither does Rue. The "shebang" line above is not qualified properly for any OS I am familiar with; as Windows doesn't need the shebang it's probably not hurting anything (no way I can imagine Rue using anything but Windows).
You certainly have more chance to learn Python than Rue does, IMO.
> > # PK file array - VIC Dictionary > > # Setting the standard variables to defaults
> For brevity, I'm going to cut out your code and simply comment on it.
> > vic = {
> * Your case statement doesn't provide any info on what the VIC is > supposed to do. It appears to be merely creating an array.
That's the beginning of a Python dictionary declaration (and assignment to the variable vic). The original code didn't get here so I can't comment much on it.
> > # Test!!!
> * Your test is merely a printout of various array items -- again, no > info on what the VIC is supposed to do.
> > /*Reading in the PK file.
> * Okay, I assume you get some information from the PK file, but I see > nothing to tell me what it's supposed to contain.
Urr. That looks like a C/C++ comment, not a Python comment.
> * Whoops, there is some reading going on here and a basic format > (lines of "something" with 4 fields separated by ":" and ";").
Those two lines look like REXX, not Python.
> > /* Writing the PK file */
> * Writing? We haven't done anything with what we read in yet?
That's not the right format for a comment in Python either.
> > CLOSE('PK-file-out')
> * What was achieved in this program? Did you merely rearrange the > data in the PK file? If so, why?
That CLOSE function has me floored. I can't make out any language that does exactly that.
To be fair (I don't have to) Rue has admitted he can't program; he also can't write. I'm not talking about spelling, or grammar; Rue can't express an idea so that another ordinary human being can understand it.
We really are wasting time and bandwidth here on an imaginary project which he expects us to do for him.
On 31-Jan-02 13:24:19 David Masterson <dmas...@synopsys.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Timothy Rue writes: >> #! Python >I don't know Python (yet), but I think I get the idea. >> # PK file array - VIC Dictionary >> # Setting the standard variables to defaults >For brevity, I'm going to cut out your code and simply comment on it.
12 hour work days suck. Have barely had enought time to read your message not to mention better responding.
This is not a responce to you message, but only saying I haven't yet and why.
--- *3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!* *~ ~ ~ Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!* Timothy Rue What's *DONE* in all we do? *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE* Email @ mailto:tim...@mindspring.com >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ ^<--------<----9----<--------<
>>>>>> Timothy Rue writes: >> Language is abstraction, created in order to communicate, but it can >> never completely communicate reality. A pictures says a thousand >> words..... And that ain't language. >Yes it is. Language exists in order to communicate an abstraction of >reality from one entity (usually people, but it could also be animals) >to another. That abstraction can be as simple as "hunger" to as >complex as the theory of relativity. The same is true with pictures >since they are also an abstraction of reality and are used to >communicate what something (might have) looked like at some time. >There are many pictographic languages around. >> This project would move forward faster if people would chose to >> help. And the sooner it get more complete the sooner more can be >> explained by way of example. >We *CANNOT* help if we cannot understand the abstraction of reality >that this project represents. You must find the proper language by >which to communicate that abstraction. >> #! Python >I don't know Python (yet), but I think I get the idea. >> # PK file array - VIC Dictionary >> # Setting the standard variables to defaults >For brevity, I'm going to cut out your code and simply comment on it. >> vic = { >* Your case statement doesn't provide any info on what the VIC is > supposed to do. It appears to be merely creating an array. >> # Test!!! >* Your test is merely a printout of various array items -- again, no > info on what the VIC is supposed to do. >> /*Reading in the PK file. >* Okay, I assume you get some information from the PK file, but I see > nothing to tell me what it's supposed to contain. >> current_line = READLN('PK_file') >> PARSE VAR current_line vic.1 ':' vic.1.1 ';' vic.1.2 ';' vic.1.3 >* Whoops, there is some reading going on here and a basic format > (lines of "something" with 4 fields separated by ":" and ";"). >> /* Writing the PK file */ >* Writing? We haven't done anything with what we read in yet? >> CLOSE('PK-file-out') >* What was achieved in this program? Did you merely rearrange the > data in the PK file? If so, why?
Ok, What you saw wasn't the all that I had, the following is, (though not as much of it as the last post, has been converted to python)..
There is code that has been converted to python, code that is still in arexx form needing to be converted to python and more that hasn't been put into either arexx or python.
What is between /* and */ are arexx type comments.
Along the way there is code for testing such as printing and writing and reading a file, the PK file. The PK file keeps track of information regarding the other commands, the information they make use of.
the "SAY" command is Arexx and like the Prints statement. For now there is alot of say/print that can later be easily changed to a function call that does something more. But for now the say/print allows us to know we are getting the to the point of a place for a function call.
The sections like:
WHEN input_command = AI THEN SELECT
WHEN user_instruction = r1 THEN SAY vic.1.1 WHEN user_instruction = r2 THEN SAY vic.1.2 WHEN user_instruction = r3 THEN SAY vic.1.3
WHEN user_instruction = c1 THEN vic.1.1=change2make WHEN user_instruction = c2 THEN vic.1.2=change2make WHEN user_instruction = c3 THEN vic.1.3=change2make
/* Test!!! SAY vic.1":" vic.1.1";"vic.1.2";"vic.1.3 SAY vic.2":" vic.2.1";"vic.2.2";"vic.2.3 SAY vic.3":" vic.3.1";"vic.3.2";"vic.3.3 SAY vic.4":" vic.4.1";"vic.4.2";"vic.4.3 SAY vic.5":" vic.5.1";"vic.5.2";"vic.5.3 SAY vic.6":" vic.6.1";"vic.6.2";"vic.6.3 SAY " "vic.6.5 SAY vic.7":" vic.7.1";"vic.7.2";"vic.7.3 SAY " "vic.7.5 SAY vic.8":" vic.8.1";"vic.8.2";"vic.8.3 SAY " "vic.8.5 SAY vic.9":" vic.9.1";"vic.9.2";"vic.9.3 */
/*==================================*/ /*Reading in the PK file. If no filename is present then read default. if default does not exist, warn and create*/
PKfilename = 0
/*check internal variables*/
IF vic.2.1 > '' THEN PKfilename = vic.2.1
ELSE DO
IF VIC.2.2 > '' THEN PKfilename = vic.2.2
END
/* If above fails try "default.pk" */
IF PKfilename = 0 THEN DO
IF EXISTS(vic.2.3) = 0 THEN DO
SAY 'WARNING: default PK file ('vic.2.3') not available. Creating It'
WHEN user_instruction = r1 THEN SAY vic.1.1 WHEN user_instruction = r2 THEN SAY vic.1.2 WHEN user_instruction = r3 THEN SAY vic.1.3
WHEN user_instruction = c1 THEN vic.1.1=change2make WHEN user_instruction = c2 THEN vic.1.2=change2make WHEN user_instruction = c3 THEN vic.1.3=change2make
/* AI Sets up the PK file and makes available the internal commands. May be used with any of the following options*/
/*AI or -n name*/ WHEN user_instruction = '' THEN SAY "startup of AI w/defaults"
WHEN user_instruction = '-'n THEN SAY "startup w/AI file"
/*AI -pk filename or filename.pk*/ WHEN user_instruction = '-'pk THEN vic.2.1=change2make
WHEN user_instruction = .pk THEN SAY "startup w/.pk file"
/*AI -oi filename or filename.oi */ WHEN user_instruction = '-'oi THEN vic.3.1=change2make
WHEN user_instruction = .oi THEN SAY "startup w/.OI file"
/*AI -ip (set options) or -i (set options) */
WHEN user_instruction = '-'ip THEN vic.4.1=changes2make
WHEN user_instruction = '-'i THEN SAY "startup w/i (ip) settings"
On 30-Jan-02 23:23:31 Sam Holden <shol...@pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au> wrote:
>This is a discuss group (gnu,misc.discuss anyway). It is not a place to seek >coding help. If you don't want a debate don't post to a discussion forum. If >comp.lang.python is like every other comp.lang group I know then it is >also not a place to seek coding help - other than specific language problems >(such as how do I convert a string into a number?). >You just don't understand how programmers work. And until you do you >won't find many willing to help you. In fact if someone did think your ideas >were good they would probably just fork your code and do it themselves >without your involvement - since you seem to be going out of your way to turn > people off your project.
Don't like the idea of autocoding huh?
--- *3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!* *~ ~ ~ Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!* Timothy Rue What's *DONE* in all we do? *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE* Email @ mailto:tim...@mindspring.com >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ ^<--------<----9----<--------<
On 29-Jan-02 23:31:45 Delaney, Timothy <tdela...@avaya.com> wrote:
>OK - I give up too. I've done my best to understand what you're going on >about, but so far as I can tell, everything you say means nothing. Seriously >- I don't think I've read a single thing from you that, once you remove all >the double-talk and nonsense, actually means anything. >I have just added you to my killfile. Any post from you will now be >automatically deleted. >Tim Delaney
Some people don't want to see what will make them useless.
--- *3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!* *~ ~ ~ Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!* Timothy Rue What's *DONE* in all we do? *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE* Email @ mailto:tim...@mindspring.com >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ ^<--------<----9----<--------<
On 29-Jan-02 06:38:02 phil hunt <ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:13:20 +0000, Jonathan Hogg <jonat...@onegoodidea.com> >wrote: >>On 28/1/2002 23:49, in article 83it9mghng....@panacea.canonical.org, "Kragen >>Sitaker" <kra...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> These are problems, but they are not problems AppleScript solves.
>>The only two sensible things I could get out of Timothy's manifesto was the >>idea of GUI programs exposing their internal functionality through an >>RPC-like mechanism, and that programming languages have a high entry cost >>[...] >>c.l.py isn't really the place for any of this >I think c.l.py is an approriate place tob discuss the entry costs of >programming and how programming languages can be made easier. Think of >why python is the way it is.
Where else are you going to take a shot at trying to take down the ultimate cost lower tool. The one that removes the need for putting up with people like you.
--- *3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!* *~ ~ ~ Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!* Timothy Rue What's *DONE* in all we do? *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE* Email @ mailto:tim...@mindspring.com >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ ^<--------<----9----<--------<
In article <1173.799T632T11653818threes...@earthlink.net>,
Timothy Rue <threes...@earthlink.net> wrote: >Don't like the idea of autocoding huh?
Haven't been able to perceive whether or not you have an idea. I have to say, you're talking to the wrong crowd. You need people less mired in conventional ideas of software engineering. Your best bet is almost certainly the C# people; they are certainly not mired in conventional ideas of software engineering.
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