TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)
Ilias Lazaridis
* Trac is deficient, cause of "proud to be an egoism driven amateur"
developers
* Python and it's communities is excellent for learning. Not
programming, but to "learn from deficiency", community organization,
transparency, efficiency etc.!
* Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby,
if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.
-
I don't think that's a secret anymore. Anyone should know that the
trac team has huge problems to bring trac forward. People who have
looked at the code-base and project understand some reason: difficult
to maintain 'spaghetti-code' in many places, disorganized project,
missing separations of concerns etc.! I've provided an overview some
time ago
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TracAudit
At this time the developers are searching like crazy to find a mem-
leak... since months.
http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6614
But the main problem with the trac team is the processing within
project resources. Believe it or not, developers can act within this
project as they like, 'trimming' ticket comments in a way that a
ticket gets a totally other meaning.
The main specialist for this is Mr. Noah Kantrowitz. He calls it
"sanitizing". The team hides behind him, cowardly, without any public
vote.
How did everything start?
I post a simple message to trac-users (note: the user resource, NOT
the developer resource), in order to extend my custom version of trac
0.11 a little. The message did not appear, as my email is under
moderation. I do not switch to another email, as I write always with
the same identity.
So i file a ticket within the ticket system (here you can see the
"After a quick vote, it has been decided to sanitize this ticket. "...
I start to like this "sanitize" term, sounds really interesting)
http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6802
Mr. Noah Kantrowitz deleted the discussion, but I've saved it here,
thus you can see that the developers of trac have no idea about their
own processes:
http://case.lazaridis.com/ticket/48
After the developers placed the usual irrelevant comments (remember: I
just asked them to stop blocking my messages to trac users), they
"brute force closed" the ticket.
I've opened a new one, directly adressed to the project lead, in order
to complain about the developers which violate the project processes,
and to ask for a formal vote:
http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6844
Right! Mr. Noah Kantrowitz plays again "wild west". I relly don't know
who of those two is more funny: the one who plays the dictator, or the
other joker who suggests to revers the process (I should find
developers to veto against the censorship and send the to the team).
Remember: we are talking about the trac-user group.
I really cannot believe that a whole team can be in such way confused,
nuts, blind, egoism-driven etc.! Possibly they have lost the password
to the trac-user group, and are not able to manage it - who knows. I
would not wonder, seeing thos terrible processes and the rejection to
improve them.
(btw: If you like to act against censorship, please post this message
to trac-users, thus the get informed about the teams processing)
And we are talking about censorship of a trac 0.11dev custom-version-
developer. A custom version with localization support, plugin-bundles
(product-plugin) which run out of the svn, an fully functional but
simple side-navigation, and... everything deactivatable with a very
simple way, thus the original trac is there again.
Open Source works like this: many many small human ego's need to be
fitted. There's no place for developers which could redesign the whole
thing within a few months. the trac-developers need to 'fight' with
tons of spaghetti. The developers plan like crazy, instead to merge
with a application framework like e.g. turbogears. Did you know that
trac has no support for... datetime fields? Yes, its true.
You may say: do it yourself. Of course I could do it, even without
touching the main sources (using dyna-patches or monkeypatches). But
that's not how open-source works. You implement thing for yourself and
contribute things back to the core-project - but with trac there's one
problem: no one get's the core anymore (apparently the initial
developer has left)
Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've
prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
on...
perl and it's libraries.
Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting
with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
syntax-thing of python again.
Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if
you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.
Python and it's communities is excellent for learning. Not
programming, but to "learn from deficiency", community organization,
transparency, efficiency etc.!
-
So, keep your eyes on this project, if you want to be prepared to jump-
off the sinking ship "trac"
http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/
-
Party Time!
.
Robert Klemme
<snip/>
Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.
http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias
Cheers
robert
Steve Holden
[...]
> Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've
> prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
> step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
> on...
>
> perl and it's libraries.
>
receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run.
> Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting
> with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
> syntax-thing of python again.
>
Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no
compulsion to use any particular tool.
> Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if
> you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
> brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.
>
And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into
Ilias Lazaridis.
I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian, but
I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve. I hope you
have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers.
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
Jeff Schwab
Thank you. I didn't recognize his name at first.
Jeff Schwab
> Essence:
<snip>Spam spam spam spam...</snip>
I just looked at your resume. What is Abstract Project Management?
George Sakkis
A branch of Analysis Paralysis Vaporware.
Tad J McClellan
["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]
I had the post already pegged as bait simply by counting
the number of commas in the Newsgroups header. :-)
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
Ilias Lazaridis
> On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
> <snip/>
>
> Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.
>
> http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html
Thanks, nice message, I've added it to the section:
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/CoreLiveEval#WhatPeopleThink
> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias
It's really funny how easily people fall into the
"encyclopediadramatica-trap"... really funny.
"
While the articles themselves are mostly satirical jabs at Internet
users (both individually and in groups) and phenomena, bear in mind
that the Encyclopedia Dramatica itself is a parody of a much less
funny online encyclopedia. As such, ED articles tend to make fun of
the supposed objectivity and accuracy, elitism, and stupid edit wars
of such sites. In other words, expect blatant, biased lies, and expect
boring truths to get deleted quickly."
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Encyclopedia_Dramatica:About
> Cheers
>
> robert
Ilias Lazaridis
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> > Essence:
>
> <snip>Spam spam spam spam...</snip>
>
> I just looked at your resume.
http://lazaridis.com/resumes/lazaridis.html
(need to update it, lot's of irrelevant stuff, should focus on my
failures)
> What is Abstract Project Management?
I've mentioned "abstract _product_ management"
Don't know exactly, I've never tried to articulate the meaning which
I've internally.
You could extract the meaning from "Abstract Base Class" or
"Abstractness" in general.
Something like "universal product management".
Or managing a product without having many specific information about
it.
Something like this _possibly_:
Ilias Lazaridis
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
> [...]> Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've
> > prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
> > step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
> > on...
>
> > perl and it's libraries.
>
> I'm sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and
> receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run.
The perl projects can decide themselfs if they like to adopt the most
essential things:
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Project
I do not analyze languages and communities anymore, thus there is no
need for them to 'worry', e.g. that I attemp to transform them to an
high evolutive language system.
Ruby and Python were excellent for this (Ruby = weak puppets, Python =
egoism driven).
I'll just use perl until I've implemented my own language, around 2010
to 2011, which will be most possibly close to perl (or a perl
extension, if technically possibly and no legal barriers with
libraries).
Perl is available in nearly every webserver, and has very nice a
logical OO functionality (although it's not very good marketed, this
OO part). And perl keeps you highly independent, you can work with
simple systems, close to the OS.
> > Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting
> > with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
> > syntax-thing of python again.
>
> Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no
> compulsion to use any particular tool.
As said above: python (essentially it's community in a wider scope) is
an ideal domain to analyze how human egoism blocks evolution of
technical systems. Thus, python is an important educational tool.
> > Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if
> > you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
> > brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.
>
> And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into
> Ilias Lazaridis.
No, I'll be bound to python for some time, a year or so.
And good news: as I cannot post to the trac-user group, I'll post the
topics to comp.lang.python.
(you can thank the project lead of trac, his lack of courage is the
reason that the developers get out of control)
> I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian,
The IT industry has failed to provide simple standards, systems. AI
has failed to produce intelligent systems. So, maybe the IT industry
is somewhat pedestrian, as its failure to control egoism has led to
terrible software systems.
Restarting from the beginning can give the impression of a "learning
child".
> but I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve.
http://core.lazaridis.com/wiki/ActivityHistory
> I hope you have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers.
As said, the analysis phase is over.
But even if not: I've 'survived' within comp.lang.lisp for some months
I think no language community can be worser.
-
Btw:
If you would adopt the open-source-processes to digital electronic
design, we would work today still with 8086.
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/ProjectLead
.
Ilias Lazaridis
On 16 Öåâ, 15:45, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> [...]> Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've
> > prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
> > step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
> > on...
> > perl and it's libraries.
> I'm sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and
> receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run.
The perl projects can decide themselfs if they like to adopt the most
essential things:
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Project
I do not analyze languages and communities anymore, thus there is no
need for them to 'worry', e.g. that I attemp to transform them to an
high evolutive language system.
Ruby and Python were excellent for this (Ruby = weak puppets, Python =
egoism driven).
I'll just use perl until I've implemented my own language, around 2010
to 2011, which will be most possibly close to perl (or a perl
extension, if technically possibly and no legal barriers with
libraries).
Perl is available in nearly every webserver, and has very nice a
logical OO functionality (although it's not very good marketed, this
OO part). And perl keeps you highly independent, you can work with
simple systems, close to the OS.
> > Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting
> > with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
> > syntax-thing of python again.
> Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no
> compulsion to use any particular tool.
As said above: python (essentially it's community in a wider scope) is
an ideal domain to analyze how human egoism blocks evolution of
technical systems. Thus, python is an important educational tool.
> > Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if
> > you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
> > brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.
> And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into
> Ilias Lazaridis.
No, I'll be bound to python for some time, a year or so.
And good news: as I cannot post to the trac-user group, I'll post the
topics to comp.lang.python.
(you can thank the project lead of trac, his lack of courage is the
reason that the developers get out of control)
> I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian,
The IT industry has failed to provide simple standards, systems. AI
has failed to produce intelligent systems. So, maybe the IT industry
is somewhat pedestrian, as its failure to control egoism has led to
terrible software systems.
Restarting from the beginning can give the impression of a "learning
child".
> but I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve.
http://core.lazaridis.com/wiki/ActivityHistory
> I hope you have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers.
As said, the analysis phase is over.
But even if not: I've 'survived' within comp.lang.lisp for some months
http://groups.google.gr/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/879809...
Ilias Lazaridis
On 16 Öåâ, 19:15, Jeff Schwab <j...@schwabcenter.com> wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> > Essence:
> <snip>Spam spam spam spam...</snip>
> I just looked at your resume.
http://lazaridis.com/resumes/lazaridis.html
(need to update it, lot's of irrelevant stuff, should focus on my
failures)
> What is Abstract Project Management?
I've mentioned "abstract _product_ management"
cokof...@gmail.com
Post in a single reply.
Coko
Diez B. Roggisch
> Dear Ilias,
>
> Post in a single reply.
He has to, in hopes to gain the traction he desires - as otherwise he's
pretty much ignored these days. Which is a good thing of course...
Diez
George Sakkis
> cokofree...@gmail.com schrieb:
>
> > Dear Ilias,
>
> > Post in a single reply.
>
> He has to, in hopes to gain the traction he desires
Was the pun intended ? ;-)