beta.python.org content
Steve Holden
http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
look?
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/
Rinzwind
professionals but for beginners ;-) ...
- At the left hand side you used abbreviations (like PSF). Using the
full name says more about the option.
- I don't like capitals alot either (as used in the menu).
- The corporate look of the site might be something I need getting used
too.
- And I think the top part needs some nice images. Just python and logo
is taking up too much space for what it shows.
But it's a good change compared to the old site. That one was way too
ascii ;-)
Peter Maas
I like it :) Some minor points:
- The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg
to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note
that there are no religious motives in this remark :)
- I really liked the different looking Pythons in the logo corner. Couldn't
they find asylum somewhere in the new site?
- I would prefer stronger, less flimsy colours.
But apart from these superficial points: well done :)
Peter Maas, Aachen
Roel Schroeven
I think it's OK, apart from the fact that the font size of the text
overrides my browser's default. It looks and reads much better without
the font-size: 75%.
--
If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood
on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton
Roel Schroeven
Paddy
Whilst reading, http://beta.python.org/about/ I had some slight
niggles.
What do you think about the following changes?
About Python
Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl,
Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has
unique features that set it apart.
* remarkable power with very clear syntax
* fully modular, with modules in individual files,
or packages: a hierarchical arrangement of modules
for larger projects.
* intuitive object orientation, but also supports a
functional style of programming too.
* exception-based error handling
* very high level dynamic data types that are easy to use.
* interfaces to many system calls and libraries
* access to multiple GUI toolkits (X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC,
wxWidgets)
* extensions and modules easily written in C, C++ or Python
* embeddable within applications needing a scripting interface
- Paddy.
Tony Meyer
> 45 deg
> to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note
> that there are no religious motives in this remark :)
-1. Then what are the motives? A rotated cross looks a lot less
clean. Take a look at the crosses at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Cross - the only ones it vaguely resembles are the Greek cross and
the Red Cross. It certainly doesn't resemble the Christian (longer
upright section) cross, and as the article says, the cross is one of
the oldest symbols in existance.
=Tony.Meyer
Peter Maas
>> - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg
>> to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note
>> that there are no religious motives in this remark :)
>
> -1. Then what are the motives?
I don't like the shape. Snakes and right angles - it's a contradiction.
This is just my personal taste.
Peter Maas, Aachen
Rocco Moretti
> - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg
> to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note
> that there are no religious motives in this remark :)
It looks like a plus sign to me. Do you also advocate renaming "C++" to
"Cxx" or "C (circular shape) (circular shape)"?
Also note that if you made it more of a circular shape, it might
resemble a Ying-Yang symbol, and we would offend the anti-Daoist
programmers. ;-)
(Not that I like the logo, mind you. I just think that "looking like a
cross" is a poor reason to bash it.)
Claudio Grondi
For my taste it is a bit too far away from what I have seen so far of
Python related symbols and reminds too much a cross. It looks very
commercial and has not the _fun_ and _ease_ in it I get used to face
when dealing with Python related icons.
The whole site is just as any other more or less commercial site and
even if it is sure much better than the old one, I will probably miss
the old one if it will go away.
Claudio
>
> Peter Maas, Aachen
James Stroud
Maybe:
"Python is an object oriented programming language designed to increase
productivity. Though it is often compared to Perl, Tcl, Ruby, Scheme, or
Java, it has several powerful features that set it apart."
James
James Stroud
> (Not that I like the logo, mind you...)
Does anyone? There has to be a better logo! I thought the previous
requirement as established by the BDFL was no snakes. These are snakes,
and they have no personality to boot.
James Stroud
> It looks very
> commercial and has not the _fun_ and _ease_ in it I get used to face
> when dealing with Python related icons.
> The whole site is just as any other more or less commercial site and
> even if it is sure much better than the old one, I will probably miss
> the old one if it will go away.
Yes. The home-page especially looks commercial. I'm expecting a
registration screen and some place to agree to the terms and conditions
of use and a checkbox to manually opt-out of mass emailings.
Simple suggestion: Get a snazzy logo on the old site and, voila, you
have the perfect python site.
Carl Banks
> Steve Holden schreef:
> > How does
> >
> > http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
> >
> > look?
>
> I think it's OK, apart from the fact that the font size of the text
> overrides my browser's default. It looks and reads much better without
> the font-size: 75%.
I'll second this. Normally I keep my web browser at a narrow width to
try to keep lines from being too long, but the lines here are a little
too long even with a narrow window.
(In fact, on my sites, I typically use a style such as this: TD {
width: 30em; } to keep the text narrow. But I don't recommend that for
this site because some people want wide text to fit more on the screen,
aesthetic though it be not.)
Other than that, it looks great. I don't think it looks like a
corporate site; it's actually readable and usable. It cuts down on the
sensory overload from the previous site. And, it passes the no-style
litmus test (i.e.,whether you can still read and understand the site
with the style sheets disabled.)
Carl Banks
Michael Tobis
be a major improvement except for the logo.
I agree with others that the logo is a serious disappointment. Although
the symmetry has some initial appeal, I do not see or want to see a
two-ness about Python, and I find it disturbing and distracting even
without the vague cruciform aspects. In fact, just keeping the top
snake would be MUCH better.
I want a logo I can be as enthusiastic about as I am about the
language, but it will be hard to get unanimity about that, and I can
certainly see the need to compromise. Still it's my impression that
this one is a big mistake. Unlike, say, the Sun logo which I enjoy
looking at (and of which this is a cheap ripoff), this is like the
Microsoft Office logo, which I find explicitly off-putting, raising
negative associations. I might be convinced that its wrongness will
outweigh all the remaining benefits of the redesign.
Good: http://cswww.essex.ac.uk/PLANET/summer-school-02/sun-logo-new.GIF
Makes you think of cleverness, symmetry, networking, collaboration,
energy. It reinforces my positive feelings toward this company.
Bad: http://www.genbeta.com/archivos/images/logo_office_2003.jpg
Makes you think about petty politics, imbalance, who gets the window
office, injustice, asymmetry, deformity. I detest this logo, and it
reinforces my avoidance of this company.
Bad: http://beta.python.org/images/python-logo.gif
Nice font on the text, but the image raises:
What is that animal? Is it a snake? If it is, why is it so short? Why
are there two of them? Or is it one snake with two heads? Ewww. Why is
one facing backwards and the other upside-down? Is that a crucifix? Why
would someone make a cross out of snakes? These are people to avoid.
Very unsatisfactory, sorry.
mt
Shalabh Chaturvedi
Steve,
This is a great writeup. Here are my comments:
1. "Fortunately Python is something that an experienced programmer of
another language (be it ..."
Add C# and/or Java to this list. The current list might scare away a lot
of people ;).
2. "also available as the python-list mailing list"
Add "or a google group (link)".
3. "You may want to find out which text editors* are tailored to make
Python editing* easy"
Change at two places:
You may want to find out which text editors or IDEs
(http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments) are
tailored to make Python programming easy.
4. Typo: look for 'welcomne'
5. There seems to be a great overlap between this and what could go in
the 'For Developers' section. Maybe we need only one section ('For
Developers'?) In general many pages with overlapping content confuse me
(and probably others)
6. The 'About' page should have an additional section:
Python is Popular
Thousands of developers use Python to make themselves more productive in
application domains across the board - enterprise computing, web
development, game development, scientific and numerical computing,
embedded and mobile development and more. See `Success Stories` and
`Quotes` to discover more.
Thanks,
Shalabh
Terry Hancock
Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
> How does
> http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
> look?
Better than it did. ;-)
No, it looks great. I think you're hitting approximately the
right tone here. That first paragraph may be a bit too curt
about "new to programming" folks (Actually, I think you were
mentally pausing on the link, which doesn't happen on
reading because of the contrast problem -- when I
consciously make this pause, it sounds better).
But ...
1) Contrast between text and links is too low (it's hard to
see the in-text links).
2) Partly because of #1, it would be nicer to have some of
these links in a nice bullet-list. It would also break up
the paragraph text a bit, which would (ironically) increase
the chances of it being read.
You could probably go either way -- leave the color alone
and introduce some bullets, or increase the color contrast
so that the links stand out.
3) Remember that many people will be *scanning* this page,
not reading it. What will they see as their eyes scan down
the page during the first 1/2 second? Enough to make them
spend 10 seconds taking a more thorough look? Will that make
them spend the 3-5 minutes actually reading what you wrote?
Remember that a beginner is likely "shopping" for a
programming language, and wants to know:
1) What general class of language is Python?
2) What distinguishes it from other languages? (Obvious
comparables: C, Perl, Ruby, Java, Visual Basic. Less
obvious, but useful: Lisp, Haskell).
3) How long is it going to take me to learn it?
4) How much help can I get and what resources are available
to learn it? (Python is an open-source native, which to
some people continues to mean "underdocumented and
undersupported", even if *we* know that's a myth (I now
believe the opposite, but I'm in the choir ;-) )).
5) Will I be able to do anything after learning it, that I
can't do now?
You're still sort of "advertising" on the beginners site,
but it needs to be more of a technical advertisement than
the "buzzword sell" on the front page. This is the page
someone reads who is imagining that *they* are going to have
to learn this language (not pay someone else to).
Cheers,
Terry
--
Terry Hancock (han...@AnansiSpaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com
Paul Boddie
> I like the design, though I'd prefer stronger colors. I think it would
> be a major improvement except for the logo.
[Much reasoning about logos, Sun, Microsoft Office...]
With the nice font they've used, I don't understand why they didn't
turn the "p" into a snake itself. I'm sure I've seen that done
somewhere before.
Paul
Steve Holden
Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl,
Ruby, Scheme or Java.
While it has much in common with them it also has unique features that
set it apart.
* remarkable power with very clear syntax
* full modularity, supporting hierarchical packages
* intuitive object orientation
* natural expression of procedural code
* exception-based error handling
* very high level dynamic data types
* interfaces to many system calls and libraries
* access to multiple GUI toolkits (X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC, wxWidgets)
* extensions and modules easily written in C, C++ or Python
* embeddable within applications needing a scripting interface
Thanks for your remarks. All readers please note we are looking for
editors for this stuff!
Steve Holden
>
> This is a great writeup. Here are my comments:
>
> 1. "Fortunately Python is something that an experienced programmer of
> another language (be it ..."
>
> Add C# and/or Java to this list. The current list might scare away a lot
> of people ;).
>
> 2. "also available as the python-list mailing list"
>
> Add "or a google group (link)".
>
Gimme the link!
> 3. "You may want to find out which text editors* are tailored to make
> Python editing* easy"
>
> Change at two places:
> You may want to find out which text editors or IDEs
> (http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments) are
> tailored to make Python programming easy.
>
I added IDE's as a separate category - great idea!
> 4. Typo: look for 'welcomne'
>
Fixed, thanks.
> 5. There seems to be a great overlap between this and what could go in
> the 'For Developers' section. Maybe we need only one section ('For
> Developers'?) In general many pages with overlapping content confuse me
> (and probably others)
>
Don't agree. Repetition is actually better that presenting each piece of
information precisely once for many purposes.
Anyway, I am also working on the developer section in parallel to
improve the focus of that content.
> 6. The 'About' page should have an additional section:
>
> Python is Popular
>
> Thousands of developers use Python to make themselves more productive in
> application domains across the board - enterprise computing, web
> development, game development, scientific and numerical computing,
> embedded and mobile development and more. See `Success Stories` and
> `Quotes` to discover more.
>
> Thanks,
> Shalabh
>
Excellent, thanks!
Dale Strickland-Clark
> I like the design, though I'd prefer stronger colors. I think it would
> be a major improvement except for the logo.
>
><big snip>
So, are you saying you don't like the new logo?
I'm with you. I don't like it either. It looks like a diagram out of the
well known Anguine Kama Sutra.
The new site, however is very nice. Top marks for that.
--
Dale Strickland-Clark
Riverhall Systems www.riverhall.co.uk
Magnus Lycka
>> Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has
>> unique features that set it apart.
James Stroud wrote:
> Maybe:
>
> "Python is an object oriented programming language designed to increase
> productivity. Though it is often compared to Perl, Tcl, Ruby, Scheme, or
> Java, it has several powerful features that set it apart."
Definitely better. The first text seems to define Python through
comparision, and that doesn't show a lot of confidence for mature
language like Python. (It's one thing if it was much younger than
the others, but it's somewhere in the middle of that group.)
Agile might be a better buzz-word than object oriented though.
Kay Schluehr
site is/was amateurish but engaged. Now after ~15 years of existence
Pythons looks like it wants to be popular among directors of a german
job centers. It aims to do everything right but what could be said
worse? The text on the beginners page tries to argue with the potential
users in a pointless monologue. Who wants to read this text? Who wants
to be convinced that Python is *not* slow? "Do you stop beating your
wife?" And where is fun, irony and black humour? Why Python? "Python in
industry" - I see chimneys of 19th century factories, proletarian
heroes as well as futuristic hybrid robots superseeding humanity.
"Python community" - a dutch grand-family photo from the beginning of
the 20ths century - some ( or all? ) of the members are accidentally
looking like Guido, "Python in science" - snake-like RNA strand. It
need not be like this but I wonder about the total lack of personality.
Kay
A.M. Kuchling
Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>>> http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
My suggestion would be "too much text". IMHO, people do not read
paragraphs of material on the web. The basic structure shouldn't be
the paragraph, but the bullet point. e.g.
Why Python?
Agile programming language <link to 'About Python'>
Active community <link to 'Community'>: conferences <link>,
newsgroups <link>, mailing lists <link>
Open source <link>
Questions? See the FAQ. <link>
I learned this at the MEMS Exchange, where we began by writing an
explanatory paragraph explaining how to do something. Users would
ignore it completely, and call us on the phone asking "how do I do X?
What's a Y?" even though X and Y were explained right in that text.
Once it was rewritten into note form, the phone calls became much less
frequent. The wiki beginner's guide tries to be similarly laconic,
though it doesn't always succeed.
It's irritating, I know; the paragraphs aren't unduly long, and the
style is readable, not boring or academic. It would make a good
article, press release, or white paper. But web users just don't care
about blocks of text. (I keep meaning to fix
http://www.python.org/2.4.2/, which is just awful in this respect.)
--amk
Dave Hansen
I like it, FWIW. Better than a dead parrot or a killer rabbit IMHO.
Though maybe not as funny...
Regards,
-=Dave
--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.
Magnus Lycka
I think it's a well written text, but it looks more like
an introductionary chapter in a book about Python than a
text for a web site. A book looks the same for all its
readers, and it's basically sequential. Books also have
readers who've made much more of a commitment to read.
They won't click somewhere else just because it was dull
for ten seconds-
It's clear that this web site is intended to present
different information to different kinds of people, but
I don't understand for whom *this* text is written...
In fact I don't quite understand the "About" section at all,
with the subsections "For Beginners", "For Developers" and
"For Business" etc.
What does "About" mean? Is is "about this web site" or
is it "about the Python programming language". About
Python it seems. Isn't the whole site about Python?
If "about" really means "introduction", why doesn't it
say "Introduction".
Since the whole section seems to be geared towards people
who don't know a lot about Python already, and the "for
beginners" page seems to fend off people who are "completely
new to programming" with a link, it seems to me that it's
either for programmers or for some kind of decision makers
or reporters who'd prefer the business page anyway.
If we need some general introduction for all, it should be
much shorter, more like http://python.org/doc/Summary.html
Concerning the next entries in the "About" section (not what
you asked about, so this is just a bonus;):
I don't like anyone to hand me different texts based on whom
I say I am. I want to know what the texts are about and decide
for myself where to go. These are texts, not dressing rooms!
So, describe the content of each page instead of saying "If
you're this kind of guy, we think you should read this page".
It's great to take different "actors" into account, but that
should not be the public labels on the web site. It's like
the desk for dissatisfied customers in a department store.
The sign on the outside says "complaints" or something like
that. The "stupid customers" sign has to be on the inside.
That's not what you present to the stupid customers...
Perhaps the "About Section" should look like this?
Introduction
-What is Python [short summary]
-Getting started [a.k.a. for beginners/programmers, how to d/l etc]
-Why Python? [a.k.a. for business]
-Success Stories
-Quotes
I don't quite understand why there is a "PSF" entry here. If
I went to the Python web site actively looking for info about
PSF, I would not look under the introductory "About" menu, but
rather under "community". If I'm new to Python, I'd probably
ignore that meaningless acronym. Please move to Community and
make a link from "Why Python" in a sentence describing how
using Python avoids vendor lock in.
Paul Boddie
>
> I like it, FWIW. Better than a dead parrot or a killer rabbit IMHO.
> Though maybe not as funny...
Why not just take the Parrot logo and rotate it by 90 degrees? ;-)
Paul
Dave Hansen
<st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>Shalabh Chaturvedi wrote:
[...]
>
>> 2. "also available as the python-list mailing list"
>>
>> Add "or a google group (link)".
It's not a "Google Group," it's a Usenet newsgroup. Google merely
provides a lousy but accessible interface to Usenet.
>>
>Gimme the link!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python
Rocco Moretti
> With the nice font they've used, I don't understand why they didn't
> turn the "p" into a snake itself. I'm sure I've seen that done
> somewhere before.
You're probably thinking of PyPy:
Michael Tobis
brilliant.
Solves many problems:
dynamic, doesn't just sit there, looks like it is moving toward a
goal
direction of motion surprising and memorable
refers to software in the minds of experienced coders
takes advantage of the snake association without being creepy
reassuring to corporate types but fun and T-shirt friendly
can be permuted in lots of amusing ways, optionally as output from
code
first impression is cheerful, second impression is cleverness
http://www.python.org/pycon/2006/logo.png
Kudos to whoever came up with that, by the way!
mt
Juho Schultz
> Steve
I think the content is good, but I would suggest putting some bullet
points with links at the top. IMO top part of the beginner page should
somehow indicate that tutorial and FAQ is accessible from this page.
The page looks a bit dull - there is nothing bright-colored there.
Have a look at the www.holdenweb.com in your sig to see what I mean.
The small lines of red and yellow on the upper right and the orange
picture on used there makes the page a lot more alive.
Tim Parkin
> ...
>
>I don't like anyone to hand me different texts based on whom
>I say I am. I want to know what the texts are about and decide
>for myself where to go. These are texts, not dressing rooms!
>
>
Unfortunately most people do.. That's why there are beginners books,
business books, advanced books etc..
>So, describe the content of each page instead of saying "If
>you're this kind of guy, we think you should read this page".
>It's great to take different "actors" into account, but that
>should not be the public labels on the web site. It's like
>the desk for dissatisfied customers in a department store.
>The sign on the outside says "complaints" or something like
>that. The "stupid customers" sign has to be on the inside.
>That's not what you present to the stupid customers...
>
>Perhaps the "About Section" should look like this?
>
>Introduction
>-What is Python [short summary]
>-Getting started [a.k.a. for beginners/programmers, how to d/l etc]
>-Why Python? [a.k.a. for business]
>-Success Stories
>-Quotes
>
>
Looks good.. I'll have a bit more of a think about it, perhaps the
"getting started" and "why python" pages
could have sections within them (headers) for "if you are new to
programming" and "Should I use python in my business".
>I don't quite understand why there is a "PSF" entry here. If
>I went to the Python web site actively looking for info about
>PSF, I would not look under the introductory "About" menu, but
>rather under "community". If I'm new to Python, I'd probably
>ignore that meaningless acronym. Please move to Community and
>make a link from "Why Python" in a sentence describing how
>using Python avoids vendor lock in.
>
>
OK.. I'll put it up as a ticket and try to change it around at the weekend.
Thanks for the feedback.
Tim
Terry Hancock
Rocco Moretti <roccom...@hotpop.com> wrote:
> Paul Boddie wrote:
> > With the nice font they've used, I don't understand why
> > they didn't turn the "p" into a snake itself. I'm sure
> > I've seen that done somewhere before.
>
> You're probably thinking of PyPy:
Huh.
Seems like the PyPy logo should surely be an Ouroboros!
A.M. Kuchling
> What about some permutation of the PyCon logo? It is really quite
> brilliant.
It was Michael Bernstein who designed it, I believe, and agree that
it's a great logo for PyCon.
--amk
Scott David Daniels
page coloring; you might consider avoiding that as well as font spec).
In the initial paragraph:
Welcome! Are you completely new to programming? If _not_ ....
I'd add something in the words to indicate what to do if you _are_
"completely new to programming." Perhaps simply this:
Welcome! Are you completely new to programming?
If so, click on _this_link_. If _not_ ....
Paragraph 3 in "Why Python":
Some people uppose because Python ...
I'd prefer the word "suppose."
and later in that paragraph, I'd change:
... extensions that provide compact numerical solutions
to:
... extensions that provide compact high-speed numerical solutions
--Scott David Daniels
scott....@acm.org
Terry Hancock
Scott David Daniels <scott....@acm.org> wrote:
> Paragraph 3 in "Why Python":
> Some people uppose because Python ...
> I'd prefer the word "suppose."
> and later in that paragraph, I'd change:
> ... extensions that provide compact numerical
> solutions
> to:
> ... extensions that provide compact high-speed
> numerical solutions
And while we're at it, let's say "Python is a language for
programming high-speed, digital, electronic computers. Do
you have any experience with high-speed, digital, electronic
computers?"
:-D
For those who are too young, or weren't film students, the
answer is "Yes, my aunt has one".
Ironically, this is now funny for exactly the opposite
reason from the way it was intended!
Shalabh Chaturvedi
>> 2. "also available as the python-list mailing list"
>>
>> Add "or a google group (link)".
>>
Steve Holden wrote:
> Gimme the link!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python
You could even use the text:
also available as the python-list mailing list via a `web-based interface`
Shalabh Chaturvedi
>
> Perhaps the "About Section" should look like this?
>
> Introduction
> -What is Python [short summary]
> -Getting started [a.k.a. for beginners/programmers, how to d/l etc]
> -Why Python? [a.k.a. for business]
> -Success Stories
> -Quotes
+1
> I don't quite understand why there is a "PSF" entry here. If
> I went to the Python web site actively looking for info about
> PSF, I would not look under the introductory "About" menu, but
> rather under "community". If I'm new to Python, I'd probably
> ignore that meaningless acronym. Please move to Community and
> make a link from "Why Python" in a sentence describing how
> using Python avoids vendor lock in.
+1
--
Shalabh
Ron Rogers Jr.
Hi, I'm an actualy Python beginner, decided recently to "play" with
Python. I'm a "user", not a professional programmer or developer of any
sort, so I guess the "beginner's" page would be aimed at folks like me.
It looks fine, degrades pretty well in Dillo.
But.....it needs more Beginners links and info. The "Why Python" seems
a bit out of place, more akin to something that would be on the beta
home, which looks a little "corporate brochure site" to me. It also
seems a little "bland" as a beginner site goes. A little bit of "fun"
and "friendliness" in the spirit of "Python for Everyone" might be
something to add. That's what brought me to Python. The idea that
Python was not just for people like ESR who've been programmers for
decades, or for corporate types designing applications containing a new
paradigm of competencies in objective oriented programming, but for high
school students, hobbyist programmers and even those who've never
written a line of code in their lives.
It has been suggested that a Google-like hierarchy might be useful and I
agree, though I don't know how that might work in practice. You could
have a bland "brochure" site with the proper buzzwords for the
corporates, another for the devs with late breaking patches, news, RSS
feeds, whatever they need. and one for Education and/or beginners, with
perhaps a colorful friendly look. (but perhaps keeping the same basic
overall base look)
I actually like the look of the current http://www.python.org It packs
a lot of useful links in one page and it seems "friendly" Which
probably sounds silly to describe an emotional reaction or "feel" to a
site. Admittedly it doesn't look "corporate" or "slick professional" but
that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I agree with others about the new logo. It lacks a certain, pardon the
expression, "je ne sais quoi". (one of the things that got me interested
in Linux was seeing that penguin associated with the word "Linux" and
making me curious about what that Linux thing was all about) But it
would make a good logo for a "enterprise.python.org"
"business.python.org" So perhaps different logos for different purposes?
A cartoony friendly python in front of a blackboard for education
(similar to the Pygame python)
A python reading a book at the base of a larch for a listing of books
That sort of thing.
The python.org site's been useful to me, pointing me to interesting
software, documentation and whatnot. Though I didn't know about IDLE
until I saw it mentioned in a post on Slashdot in a story asking for
recommendations for Python IDE's. I am "very" new to Python.
CronoCloud (Ron Rogers Jr.)
Bruce Cropley
deserves to. As I see it, there are at least three major categories
of web visitors that we need to cater to:
- Existing python users
- Potential python users
- Managers
The current site's front page seems to be aimed mainly at existing
python developers. I agree with Magnus about not specifying who
should be interested in a particular page.
The most effective web marketing of an Open Source development
tool recently has probably been http://www.rubyonrails.org/.
I think the link on the front page to a very slick coding video
demonstration helped a lot there.
Do we have anything like that for Python yet?
TurboGears (http://www.turbogears.org/index.html) seems to have
captured the same spirit of exciting marketing hype. They are both
very cool tools as well, but so is Python.
Can we adapt any of the techniques they use for the Python website?
Hope that helps,
Bruce
Scott David Daniels
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:44:19 -0800
> Scott David Daniels <scott....@acm.org> wrote:
>> Paragraph 3 in "Why Python":
>> ... extensions that provide compact numerical
>> solutions
>> to:
>> ... extensions that provide compact high-speed
>> numerical solutions
>
> And while we're at it, let's say "Python is a language for
> programming high-speed, digital, electronic computers. Do
> you have any experience with high-speed, digital, electronic
> computers?"
The reason I included high-speed is that the paragraph is
responding to its topic sentence:
Some people (s)uppose because Python is an interpreted language
that it is slow and unsuitable for scientific and engineering tasks.
... Python's easy extensibility has allowed ... extensions that
provide compact numerical solutions.
I am simply saying that "compact numerical solutions" doesn't really
address the question of whether they are too slow.
> For those who are too young, or weren't film students, the
> answer is "Yes, my aunt has one".
Well, I am definitely not too young, but I was never a film student.
What movie?
--Scott David Daniels
scott....@acm.org
Terry Hancock
Scott David Daniels <scott....@acm.org> wrote:
> Terry Hancock wrote:
> > On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:44:19 -0800
> > Scott David Daniels <scott....@acm.org> wrote:
> >> Paragraph 3 in "Why Python":
> >> and later in that paragraph, I'd change:
> >> ... extensions that provide compact numerical
> >> solutions
> >> to:
> >> ... extensions that provide compact high-speed
> >> numerical solutions
> >
> > And while we're at it, let's say "Python is a language
> > for programming high-speed, digital, electronic
> > computers. Do you have any experience with high-speed,
> > digital, electronic computers?"
>
> The reason I included high-speed is that the paragraph is
> responding to its topic sentence:
You just touched my funny bone there. There's nothing wrong
with the edit, really. ;-)
> > For those who are too young, or weren't film students,
> > the answer is "Yes, my aunt has one".
> Well, I am definitely not too young, but I was never a
> film student. What movie?
Take the Money and Run (1969)
Directed by Woody Allen
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065063/
Of course, in the original concept, the interviewer is the
straight man asking Allen's character about the "obviously"
esoteric and high-tech field of computers for which someone
like him is "obviously" not qualified. His statement that
his Aunt has a computer was as incongruous in 1969 as
claiming that she had a Saturn V or a Space Shuttle in her
back yard.
*Today*, the funny one is the interviewer, and Allen's line
that his Aunt has one is perfectly reasonable. Even a mere
10 years later in 1979, this was true. I always found that
ironic.
Paul Rubin
> Of course, in the original concept, the interviewer is the
> straight man asking Allen's character about the "obviously"
> esoteric and high-tech field of computers for which someone
> like him is "obviously" not qualified. His statement that
> his Aunt has a computer was as incongruous in 1969 as
> claiming that she had a Saturn V or a Space Shuttle in her
> back yard.
I never saw that movie but there's a scene sort of like it in "Blast
from the Past". Basically a guy with a 1960's science education
(because he grew up in an underground bomb shelter) emerges into the
world of the 90's. When he's told that his friend has a personal
computer, his reaction is "His own computer?! You mean, inside the
house?!" etc.
robin
>How does
>
> http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
>
>look?
There are several things wrong with the interface.
First, I count seven ways of formatting a link. This is approximately
five too many and can be fixed as follows.
"For Beginners" is italicised, supposedly to indicate it is the page
we are currently on. This overloads the normal expected meaning of
italics with something unexpected. And what is the point of a link to
the current page? This should be plain text.
"About" is a top-level menu which has been expanded; to indicate this
there is a yellow bar. This is not necessary since the viewer can see
the menu is expanded. :-)
The menu items underneath an expanded heading should be in the same
format, but offset. Same format says "menu"; offset says "child."
The last menu items are in different formats yet again (typeface and
size). I see no reason for this.
Once this has been done there will be but two different ways of
formatting a link: a menu and a link in the page body.
In terms of page space, the horizontal bar at the top seems wasted.
Perhaps the vertical bar is all that is needed? The other elements
could be relocated.
The menu is structured with a list and formatted with CSS. Good!
Given that there is already a hierarchical organisation of the content
voa the collapsing menu bar, I do not think that another
representation of this is required above the main page text. I would
ditch the link trail.
Overall, the look is very "safe corporate". I myself would have gone
for a funkier (though still elegant) look. The energy of the Python
community is not being communicated. The vim of the language is
diluted. This is not playing to Python's strengths.
Yes, i have been known to do this for a living. Had I been aware
earlier, I would have been happy to help with the redesign. How can I
now?
P.S. I am not averse to the new logo. It is professional, clean, and
symbolic. Maybe there are more ideal choices but we have to get beyond
little green cartoon snakes eventually.
-----
robin
noisetheatre.blogspot.com
Steve Holden
also involved on the design side.
I was mostly looking for content criticism, but anything that helps is a
Good Thing.
> P.S. I am not averse to the new logo. It is professional, clean, and
> symbolic. Maybe there are more ideal choices but we have to get beyond
> little green cartoon snakes eventually.
regards
Fredrik Lundh
> Overall, the look is very "safe corporate". I myself would have gone
> for a funkier (though still elegant) look. The energy of the Python
> community is not being communicated. The vim of the language is
> diluted. This is not playing to Python's strengths.
>
> Yes, i have been known to do this for a living. Had I been aware
> earlier, I would have been happy to help with the redesign. How
> can I now?
you can either try joining the beta.python.org cathedral (good luck), or drop by
the skunkworks (http://effbot.org/zone/pydotorg.htm) and help me whip together
some nice templates.
(if I could pick a style, I'd go for something that has some visual connection to the
existing site style, but reworked for 2006 and today's Python universe).
</F>
Michael Sparks
+1
This doesn't show the vibrance of to me somewhere like Europython.
It doesn't show "Oh, and this is incredibly, cool, fun and useful". That
to me is what both http://www.turbogears.org/ and
http://www.rubyonrails.org/ do show.
RonR has 4 very simple engaging points:
* Get Excited
* Get Started
* Get Better
* Get Involved
Blindly copying something else is rarely IMO a good idea, but having
NO personality simply turns people off. I'm not sure how to fix this,
but I'd suspect starting with the visual humour style in python might
be a good place to start...
Put another way, I'd expect *python.com* [1] to look like the new site,
and *python.org* to look like something that, well, represents some of
the utter (very cool, very diverse) madness of the people involved with
python.
[1] NB: I **really** wouldn't go to python.com, I REALLY wasn't
expecting that.... (REALLY)
Michael.
--
Michael...@rd.bbc.co.uk, http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP
Totally my opinion and no-one elses and expecially not
the views of the BBC (!)
Aahz
A.M. Kuchling <a...@amk.ca> wrote:
>On 27 Jan 2006 08:08:58 -0800,
> Michael Tobis <mto...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What about some permutation of the PyCon logo? It is really quite
>> brilliant.
>>
>>
>> Kudos to whoever came up with that, by the way!
>
>It was Michael Bernstein who designed it, I believe, and agree that
>it's a great logo for PyCon.
Correct. Also known as my cousin. He did the logo for my me and my
primary:
http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/
Anyone wanting the services of a good graphic/web designer should
definitely consider him!
</blatant plug>
--
Aahz (aa...@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing." --Alan Perlis