python-dev summary, Jan. 16-31
Andrew Kuchling
=======================================
To comment on material in this python-dev summary, you can simply post
to comp.lang.python / <pytho...@python.org>. These summaries are
archived at <URL:http://www.amk.ca/python/dev/>.
This two week period saw the release of the first alpha of Python 2.1,
and the second alpha was released a few days into February. There's a
lot of bugfixing going on, much of which isn't of interest here, but
there were a few general discussions worth noting.
2.1alpha1
=========
The first alpha of Python 2.1 was released on January 22, and is the
debut of Python 2.1. It didn't compile cleanly on Cygwin, and the new
autodetecting build system needs some more work to support more
platforms correctly, but no major problems or brown paper bag bugs
showed up.
2.1alpha2 was subsequently released on February 2, slightly out of the
bounds of this summary. 2.1a2 incorporated the nested scopes from PEP
227 and the weak reference type from PEP 205.
A draft of "What's New in Python 2.1" is available, and will be continuously
updated until 2.1final is shipped:
http://www.amk.ca/python/2.1/
unistr()
========
M.-A. Lemburg checked in a unistr() built-in, but later backed out the
change after subsequent discussion. str() takes any Python object and
converts it to a string, and unistr() would take any object and return
a Unicode string. ?!ng wondered why the existing unicode() built-in
shouldn't do this -- currently it only accepts a string and an optional
encoding -- or should this functionality be added to str()?
This also raised the question of how a type could return a Unicode
representation of itself. Should the tp_str slot in the Py_TypeObject
struct be permitted to return either an 8-bit or a Unicode string, or
should a tp_unicode slot be added? Some discussion followed, but no
clear answer was apparent, so unistr() was removed. This issue will
probably have to wait for a PEP to be written, which means that it'll
have to wait until 2.2.
Sets
====
Eric S. Raymond posted the docs for a set module he's written with an
eye toward getting it into the standard library. "The \module{set}
module defines functions for treating lists and other sequences as
mathematical sets, and defines a set class that uses these operations
natively and overloads Python's standard operator set."
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-January/012005.html
But there's already a PEP for a set type, #218 by Greg Wilson:
http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0218.html
Reconciling the two proposals doesn't seem difficult, but opinion was
divided: are sets so commonly used that they should be in the standard
library, particularly if dictionaries can be used to implement many
common set operations?
?!ng pointed out that simply allowing "if key in dict" would make
using dictionaries as sets a bit more natural. /F agreed, and GvR
added "You know, I've long resisted this, but I agree now -- this is
the right thing." Thomas Wouters submitted a patch, but it hasn't yet
been checked in.
A subthread wondered about the related question of 'for X in
dictionary:' Should this do anything, and if so, what? X could be
"key" or "key, value", but the best choice isn't obvious. Another
subthread drifted into the question of the Batteries Included
distribution proposed by Moshe Zadka in PEP 206, and yet another one
proposed dictionaries that can be marked as unmodified ("frozen" or
"locked"). No clear conclusions were made, and the problems seem
messy enough that a PEP will be required, so this is another thing
likely to be postponed until 2.2.
Envoi
=====
This will be the last python-dev summary I write, accounting for its
rushed and sketchy quality.
The goal of these summaries has been to make the discussions on
python-dev more visible to the community, letting people offer timely
comments while a thread is still reasonably current and fresh in
memory. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen, and no messages to
python-dev are spurred by them. Ideally people would come forward to
say "The last summary mentioned you were talking about X. I use X a
lot, and here's what I think: ...", but that isn't happening.
The release of 2.1 offers a second calibration on their effectiveness.
2.1 is the first Python release to have been carried out using PEPs as
the mechanism, so there are no sizable changes in 2.1 that don't have
a corresponding PEP. Yet many people were *surprised* by some of the
changes in Python 2.1 such as function attributes and nested scopes,
even though PEPs were written and discussed, often in lengthy threads
months ago.
To me, this makes it crystal clear that the summaries aren't achieving
their goal of making the development process more transparent to the
community. Perhaps giving the PEPs higher visibility -- posting
announcements of status changes and new PEPs to
comp.lang.python.announce, for example -- would do a better job, and
it would definitely require less effort. In any case, I feel there's
no point in continuing to write them.
(Should anyone want to volunteer to continue writing them, please do
so; contact me if you want copies of the previous summaries for a
complete archive.)
My thanks to the various people who've offered comments and
encouragement along the way; you've all kept me going over the last 7
months...
Related Links
=============
Python-dev archives:
http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/
Python project page on SourceForge:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/python
Python Enhancement Proposals (PEPs):
http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/
What's New in Python 2.1
http://www.amk.ca/python/2.1/
Konrad Hinsen
> To me, this makes it crystal clear that the summaries aren't achieving
> their goal of making the development process more transparent to the
> community. Perhaps giving the PEPs higher visibility -- posting
The fact that there are people who read neither the PEPs nor the
summaries doesn't prove that the summaries aren't useful. I have
always read them with much interest, since I don't have the time at
the moment to follow the development in detail. And I would have
shouted out loud if I had noticed a tendency that looks dangerous to
me - it just hasn't happened.
So personally I hope that someone will take up the job of providing
development summaries in the future. And I'd like to thank Andrew
for having done so for many months already.
Konrad.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Centre de Biophysique Moleculaire (CNRS) | Tel.: +33-2.38.25.56.24
Rue Charles Sadron | Fax: +33-2.38.63.15.17
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Joel Lucsy
"Konrad Hinsen" <hin...@cnrs-orleans.fr> wrote in message
news:m3ofwdp...@chinon.cnrs-orleans.fr...
> Andrew Kuchling <akuc...@mems-exchange.org> writes:
>
> > To me, this makes it crystal clear that the summaries aren't achieving
> > their goal of making the development process more transparent to the
> > community. Perhaps giving the PEPs higher visibility -- posting
>
> The fact that there are people who read neither the PEPs nor the
> summaries doesn't prove that the summaries aren't useful. I have
> always read them with much interest, since I don't have the time at
> the moment to follow the development in detail. And I would have
> shouted out loud if I had noticed a tendency that looks dangerous to
> me - it just hasn't happened.
Same here.
--
Joel Lucsy (jjl...@concentric.net)
Michael Ströder
>
> "Konrad Hinsen" <hin...@cnrs-orleans.fr> wrote in message
> news:m3ofwdp...@chinon.cnrs-orleans.fr...
> > Andrew Kuchling <akuc...@mems-exchange.org> writes:
> >
> > > To me, this makes it crystal clear that the summaries aren't achieving
> > > their goal of making the development process more transparent to the
> > > community. Perhaps giving the PEPs higher visibility -- posting
> >
> > The fact that there are people who read neither the PEPs nor the
> > summaries doesn't prove that the summaries aren't useful. I have
> > always read them with much interest,
>
+1
Ciao, Michael.
Brad Clements
have the time to follow all the threads personally. I think python-dev
summary is very useful. I'm sorry I can't personally contribute.
--
Brad Clements,
b...@murkworks.com
"Michael Ströder" <mic...@stroeder.com> wrote in message
news:3A82E0A1...@stroeder.com...
Andrew Dalke
>The release of 2.1 offers a second calibration on their effectiveness.
>2.1 is the first Python release to have been carried out using PEPs as
>the mechanism, so there are no sizable changes in 2.1 that don't have
>a corresponding PEP. Yet many people were *surprised* by some of the
>changes in Python 2.1 such as function attributes and nested scopes,
>even though PEPs were written and discussed, often in lengthy threads
>months ago.
I for one am not on the python-dev mailing list. It's too
much mail traffic for me to follow. There were about 1,000
messages in January and while the signal level is high,
the content is usually beyond my ken.
(Following the newsgroup is easier because I can defer reading
the newsgroup then kill threads I don't want to follow. I
suppose I can do that with email as well, by redirecting
incoming messages to a special mailbox, but that's a hassle
and I would have to see if it's possible and learn how to
do it. Barrier to entry.)
Speaking of the archive, it's always been hard for me to
remember where the archive is located. There's nothing on
the python.org page pointing to it. I know it's at sourceforge,
but python.sourceforge.com doesn't work nor does .org. I
finally figured out it was python.sourceforge.net but I
don't see a link to the back archive. (Sorry, but my ability
to remember names isn't perfect - that's one reason I like
Python :)
There are also no links from the python.org page to the PEPs
although python.sourceforge.net points directory to it.
More importantly, the PEPs are rarely announced to c.l.py,
which means I don't know what's going on. When a PEP *is*
announced on c.l.py there are discussions about it, which
implies that others are like me in being interested in
giving input but don't have the time to follow all of the
technical details of python-dev.
I used DejaNews to search for threads named "PEP". The ones
which came up were:
PEP 4
PEP 201
PEP 203
PEP 214
PEP 222 (because of you)
PEP 223
PEP 224
Given that there are some 40 PEPs, this implies that only 20%
of them were announced to c.l.py, which greatly reduces the
dissemination of their ideas to the rest of the Python world.
Missing Finished PEPs are: 207, 208, 217, 221, 240 and 232.
I'm looking at PEP 0001, "PEP Purpose and Guidlines". It says:
] PEP authors are responsible for collecting community feedback on a
] PEP before submitting it for review. A PEP that has not been
] discussed on python-list and python-dev will not be accepted for
] review. However, wherever possible, long open-ended discussions
] on public mailing lists should be avoided. A better strategy is
] to encourage public feedback directly to the PEP author, who
] collects and integrates the comments back into the PEP.
This is obviously not being done. I searched Deja for "PEP 217",
which I first knew about from your python-dev summary. There
was only a single reference from Tim Peters about it. Take
PEP 232, which is the one on function attributes. You said
> Yet many people were *surprised* by some of the
> changes in Python 2.1 such as function attributes and nested scopes,
> even though PEPs were written and discussed, often in lengthy threads
> months ago.
The first mention on c.l.py on function attributes was from Jan. 24
http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=719772745&fmt=text
even though, yes, the PEP was created on Dec. 2.
Jeremy Hylton first mentioned PEP 227 ("Statically Nested
Scopes") on Nov. 19 in the thread "Ruby and Python"
http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=695547859&fmt=text
then was mentioned again in passing by Tim on Dec. 20. The PEP
was created on Nov. 1.
No wonder there have been complaints - how is anyone not
interested in following python-dev supposed to know what is
going on with Python development?
>To me, this makes it crystal clear that the summaries aren't achieving
>their goal of making the development process more transparent to the
>community.
The problem is the summaries are just that - summaries. I
*really* enjoy reading them because there are a concise description
of what occured and the only way I have these days to know
what is going on with development.
However, consider this latest summary. I received it on
the 7th, which is 1 to 3 weeks after the discussions it talked
about. To contribute to a thread, I would need to catch up
on the mailing list to see what arguments have been presented,
then bring up my questions or objections. But it would be
about two weeks late, which means people may have already
decided on what to do, and making changes is more likely to
be frowned upon.
(Not saying that that will happen, but that's my perception,
which makes it harder for me to decide to put in the effort
to make a useful comment.)
> Perhaps giving the PEPs higher visibility -- posting
>announcements of status changes and new PEPs to
>comp.lang.python.announce, for example -- would do a better job
Just mentioning them on c.l.py as per PEP 0001 would help!
I *really* miss the pre-python-dev newsgroup days. Spinning
the core technical discussions off has not only reduced my
awareness of Python's direction, but it has almost eliminated
my education in CS topics like continuations. (Which you
clarified for me at the Houston conference :) And there
are far fewer posts from Tim Peters than the schriebfest
days.
So I really place the problem on the main python-dev people
who don't bother to disseminate their ideas to the broader
audience of people who develop a lot of Python code but
aren't language designers.
>I feel there's no point in continuing to write them.
I agree with the others who have replied - I will miss the
summaries greatly. They were nearly the only way I had to
know what was going on with Python development.
>(Should anyone want to volunteer to continue writing them, please do
>so; contact me if you want copies of the previous summaries for a
>complete archive.)
I can't as I don't have the time to follow python-dev, much less
comment anywhere near as intellegently about it as you have.
Andrew
da...@acm.org
Andrew Dalke
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
says in bold that
Subscription is by invitation only.
and adds
This is a closed list
So just how am I supposed to follow what is going on
in Python development and how do I make comments in a
timely manner?
Feeling snubbed,
Andrew
da...@acm.org
Aahz Maruch
In article <95v3mt$lnh$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,
Andrew Dalke <da...@acm.org> wrote:
>
> [...]
I'm adding a strong "Me, too!" to everything Andrew D. said.
The idea doesn't thrill me, but one possible way to handle this would be
to gateway python-dev to a moderated newsgroup.
--
--- Aahz (Copyright 2001 by aa...@pobox.com)
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
"Actually, I've found that Usenet has helped a lot with my terror of
social stupidity. Seeing people I really like and respect behave like
idiots in public has been very beneficial." --Rachael Lininger
Andrew Kuchling
> The first mention on c.l.py on function attributes was from Jan. 24
> http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=719772745&fmt=text
> even though, yes, the PEP was created on Dec. 2.
I meant python-dev discussion here; clearly the PEPs aren't visible
enough in c.l.p.
> about. To contribute to a thread, I would need to catch up
> on the mailing list to see what arguments have been presented,
> then bring up my questions or objections. But it would be
> about two weeks late, which means people may have already
> decided on what to do, and making changes is more likely to
> be frowned upon.
Two weeks late is a bit annoying, but it's much less annoying than
only finding out about objections when the first alpha ships, months
later! Note that you *can* send messages to python-dev; only
subscription is limited.
> So I really place the problem on the main python-dev people
> who don't bother to disseminate their ideas to the broader
> audience of people who develop a lot of Python code but
> aren't language designers.
Indeed. I'm increasingly worried that python-dev is becoming too
insular, working on things while the community is unaware of what's
coming. The fixes for this seem to be:
* Announce PEP drafts and status changes to c.l.py.announce
* Write a set of introductory pages for Python development (this has been
brought up before).
* A read-only alias for python-dev would be useful for several people, but
may require serious Mailman hackery (I don't know).
Any other suggestions?
--amk
Carel Fellinger
> Envoi
> =====
> This will be the last python-dev summary I write, accounting for its
> rushed and sketchy quality.
This is really, really, really sad news!
You know, by reading your nice wrapups on the discussions in python-dev
I better understood why things changed as they did. And more over it
gave me a good community feeling, it opened up the development process
to us mere mortals:)
> The goal of these summaries has been to make the discussions on
> python-dev more visible to the community, letting people offer timely
> comments while a thread is still reasonably current and fresh in
> memory. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen, and no messages to
I guess that you did to good a job, your wrapups informed me that new
proposals were thouroughly discussed, and mostly the objections I had
I shared with someone more knowledgable *and* involved in the development
so no need to react.
> The release of 2.1 offers a second calibration on their effectiveness.
> 2.1 is the first Python release to have been carried out using PEPs as
> the mechanism, so there are no sizable changes in 2.1 that don't have
> a corresponding PEP. Yet many people were *surprised* by some of the
> changes in Python 2.1 such as function attributes and nested scopes,
> even though PEPs were written and discussed, often in lengthy threads
> months ago.
To me that's because the status of the PEPS isn't cristal clear.
You have to frequent the PEPS status page and keep an eye on changes
there. It would be much easier (for me atleast:) if someone (you again:)
would inform us that the status of a PEP changed.
I know all the needed info is availeble right now, but I've to go out
(on the net) and go over lots of messages just to get the info you
summed up so nicely for me all those months. Prior to your wrapups
I really had no idea were Python development was heading, so I really
liked it.
--
groetjes, carel
David Bolen
> So just how am I supposed to follow what is going on
> in Python development and how do I make comments in a
> timely manner?
Well, it's not quite as closed as it may sound - the membership on the
list itself is closed to those participating in the core development,
but anyone can send e-mail to the list, and all mail is archived and
can be followed through the archive.
(Although as suggested elsewhere, a gateway to a newsgroup (even if
one-way) would be cool as I find news the most efficient vehicle to
follow active lists.)
I'm not totally clear on the rationale for the closed status (and I'm
not currently on the list), but I'm guessing there was an expectation
that an open list would get lots of lurking subscriptions which might
really ratchet up the load tremendously for spurious discussions.
This way, those directly on the list are those writing the code. In
effect, it really is a core developers list, but it's been opened up
enough so that anyone can peruse it - or contribute individual mail.
--
-- David
--
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\ David Bolen \ E-mail: db...@fitlinxx.com /
| FitLinxx, Inc. \ Phone: (203) 708-5192 |
/ 860 Canal Street, Stamford, CT 06902 \ Fax: (203) 316-5150 \
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------/
Mark Jackson
> "Andrew Dalke" <da...@acm.org> writes:
[a whole bunch of stuff to which I add a firm "me, too."]
> > about. To contribute to a thread, I would need to catch up
> > on the mailing list to see what arguments have been presented,
> > then bring up my questions or objections. But it would be
> > about two weeks late, which means people may have already
> > decided on what to do, and making changes is more likely to
> > be frowned upon.
>
> Two weeks late is a bit annoying, but it's much less annoying than
> only finding out about objections when the first alpha ships, months
> later! Note that you *can* send messages to python-dev; only
> subscription is limited.
Hm. That wasn't clear to me either, and I *do* keep the python-dev
page bookmarked, and check it out from time to time. Had I ever felt
well-informed enough to want to speak up I wouldn't have known I could
address python-dev directly.
> > So I really place the problem on the main python-dev people
> > who don't bother to disseminate their ideas to the broader
> > audience of people who develop a lot of Python code but
> > aren't language designers.
>
> Indeed. I'm increasingly worried that python-dev is becoming too
> insular, working on things while the community is unaware of what's
> coming.
Risk: the language moves in the direction of being easier for wizards
to write, at the (probable) expense of becoming less easy for
nonwizards to read.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Having your book made into a movie is like having
your ox made into a bouillon cube.
- Bill Neely
Andrew MacIntyre
> So personally I hope that someone will take up the job of providing
> development summaries in the future. And I'd like to thank Andrew
> for having done so for many months already.
Ditto on both counts.
--
Andrew I MacIntyre "These thoughts are mine alone..."
E-mail: andrew.m...@aba.gov.au (work) | Snail: PO Box 370
and...@bullseye.apana.org.au (play) | Belconnen ACT 2616
and...@pcug.org.au (play2) | Australia
Tony J Ibbs (Tibs)
summaries (sometimes a resounding silence is appreciation, not
disdain!). The summaries have been on my "looking forwards to that" list
for a good while now. Many thanks for what you've done (any chance of
reconsidering now you know how much we *really* love you?).
As with others, I don't have time to follow python-dev itself (via
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/ of course - as indicated at
the back of the summaries), but I *do* want to know what is going on
"behind the scenes". The summaries provide(d) a decent intermediate.
If AMK cannot continue with this, is there any scope for the python-dev
crowd getting one of the "core" group to write a summary as (erm) part
of their "paid" work? (ducks brickbats - I don't want to know what hours
you're *actually* working!)
Tibs ("spare time" - I'm sure I've *heard* of it - what did it mean,
now?)
--
Tony J Ibbs (Tibs) http://www.tibsnjoan.co.uk/
Which is safer, driving or cycling?
Cycling - it's harder to kill people with a bike...
My views! Mine! Mine! (Unless Laser-Scan ask nicely to borrow them.)
Oleg Broytmann
On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Tony J Ibbs (Tibs) wrote:
> I too am very sad that you're deciding to stop writing the python-dev
> summaries (sometimes a resounding silence is appreciation, not
> disdain!). The summaries have been on my "looking forwards to that" list
Exactly!
> for a good while now. Many thanks for what you've done (any chance of
Many thinks. We really appreciate your good job!
> reconsidering now you know how much we *really* love you?).
Any chance you'll continue the summaries?
Oleg.
----
Oleg Broytmann http://phd.pp.ru/ p...@phd.pp.ru
Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
Emile van Sebille
summary, and then was pleased to see it show up, and now
saddened to see it pass on.
Thanks for your efforts in the past on this. It has been
much appreciated.
--
Emile van Sebille
em...@fenx.com
-------------------
"Oleg Broytmann" <p...@phd.pp.ru> wrote in message
news:mailman.981716953...@python.org...
mmil...@vfa.com
Mark millikan
Warren Postma
"Carel Fellinger" <cfel...@iae.nl> wrote in message
news:95v7gg$8ne$1...@animus.fel.iae.nl...
> Andrew Kuchling <akuc...@mems-exchange.org> wrote:
>
> > Envoi
> > =====
>
> > This will be the last python-dev summary I write, accounting for its
> > rushed and sketchy quality.
>
> This is really, really, really sad news!
Py_INCREF('news:95v7gg$8ne$1...@animus.fel.iae.nl...')
Andrew Kuchling
> Any chance you'll continue the summaries?
Not really. All of this is sparked by my wanting to reduce the load,
really; I recently realized that I haven't hacked on *any* of my
projects (Oedipus, amkCrypto, etc.) lately. Therefore I've dropped
out of my book club (one night a week), dropped the summaries, (two
nights every two weeks, or 15% of my evenings), and after 2.1final is
released I'll probably unsubscribe from python-dev, too.
So, to rescuing the summaries... For the information of potential
volunteers, I'll summarize the process. Writing them isn't difficult
and can easily be done while watching TV -- I usually pull the mail
archive on my laptop and do just that. They're just time-consuming,
taking up two evenings at a time.
1) Grab a copy of the mailbox archive for the month.
2) Load it up into mutt (or other MUA of choice), and delete messages
outside of the two-week period being summarized.
3) Sort the remaining messages by thread, and go through finding the
interesting threads. What makes a thread interesting?
* Threads discussing how to fix a particular bug,
or tracing down a bug's root cause, can be quite lengthy but
usually aren't interesting.
* Minute discussions of language syntax are rarely interesting,
and I think even Guido tunes them out after a while.
* New proposals that spark off a discussion are interesting.
* Discussions surrounding a PEP are interesting.
4) <time consuming but fun step> Read through each interesting thread,
pulling out interesting quotes and summarizing the flow of the
argument. This is fun because you can introduce your own biases; I
think this is why people become journalists.
5) <time consuming and tedious step> For each quote, find the URL for
that message in the archives on mail.python.org, and link to it.
This is painful; recently I've started spidering the archives with wget
and grepping them in order to avoid ferreting through the indexes
over my modem connection.
Thinking about it now, it would have been much easier on me to just
do what Linux Weekly News does, and make a local copy of each
message. That means you wouldn't have to worry about links
breaking (moving Mailman to mail.python.org required regenerating
the archives, and the links in the October & November summaries are
now all broken), and the author wouldn't have to hunt for the right
message URL. You'd lose the easy ability to follow the thread, of
course.
6) The summary is written as plain ASCII, and it gets posted, and
mailed to LWN and LinuxToday. The HTML version is then just a
matter of escaping <&>, turning the URLs into <A> tags with an Emacs
macro, and putting <pre> tags around it; no fancy XML DTD...
--amk
Sandipan Gangopadhyay
Though my colleagues and I use a number of other languages, python is
central in the architectures we work with. We strive to code in other
languages to match upto the python style and philosophy. We believe in it.
Watching it grow and evolve (via the dev summary) is, in my opinion, an
important process in our own development as programmers.
Regards,
Sandipan
----- Original Message -----
From: <mmil...@vfa.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
To: <pytho...@python.org>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: python-dev summary, Jan. 16-31
> +1
>
> Mark millikan
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
Oleg Broytmann
> Oleg Broytmann <p...@phd.pp.ru> writes:
> > Any chance you'll continue the summaries?
>
> Not really. All of this is sparked by my wanting to reduce the load,
> really; I recently realized that I haven't hacked on *any* of my
> projects (Oedipus, amkCrypto, etc.) lately. Therefore I've dropped
Ah, ok, ok, that's right. Code is even more important! Good luck!
Simon Brunning
> * Announce PEP drafts and status changes to c.l.py.announce
> * Write a set of introductory pages for Python development (this has been
> brought up before).
> * A read-only alias for python-dev would be useful for several people, but
>
> may require serious Mailman hackery (I don't know).
more than happy. I know that *I* would.
Cheers,
Simon Brunning
TriSystems Ltd.
sbru...@trisystems.co.uk
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Donn Cave
|> From: Andrew Kuchling [SMTP:akuc...@mems-exchange.org]
|> * Announce PEP drafts and status changes to c.l.py.announce
|> * Write a set of introductory pages for Python development (this has been
|> brought up before).
|> * A read-only alias for python-dev would be useful for several people, but
|>
|> may require serious Mailman hackery (I don't know).
|
| Sounds to me like if these three could be achieved, 99.9% of c.l.py would be
| more than happy. I know that *I* would.
Since you presume to speak for 99.9% of c.l.py, it's fair for me
to suggest you don't know what you're talking about. I doubt
even the present membership of python-dev really has time to read
it, and very few of us with only an observer's interest are going
to be able to keep up. I'm not making this up, see comments in
this thread. Most of us don't have even the knowledge to always
follow what's going on. Which has been part of the value of the
summaries, digested by someone who does.
I would be more than happy if I didn't have any reason to read
python-dev.
Donn Cave, do...@oz.net
Dan L. Pierson
> The fact that there are people who read neither the PEPs nor the
> summaries doesn't prove that the summaries aren't useful. I have
> always read them with much interest, since I don't have the time at
> the moment to follow the development in detail. And I would have
> shouted out loud if I had noticed a tendency that looks dangerous to
> me - it just hasn't happened.
>
> So personally I hope that someone will take up the job of providing
> development summaries in the future. And I'd like to thank Andrew
> for having done so for many months already.
I agree. Thank you, Andrew, for all of the work you've put into
creating on the consistent high spots of comp.lang.python for the
last serveral months.
One of the reasons that I haven't followed up on the python-dev stuff
as much as I should is that I'm almost exclusively working with Zope
these days and it's still stuck in 1.5.2 land. Looking through your
window at 2.0 and 2.1 one makes me drool a lot, but I haven't got any
experience with it, just opinions.
Thanks again,
Dan Pierson
Tim Peters
> ...
> If AMK cannot continue with this, is there any scope for the python-dev
> crowd getting one of the "core" group to write a summary as (erm) part
> of their "paid" work?
Not unless they stopped doing Python development work; this is going to be a
volunteer activity no matter who does it. Just between us, there were even
some weeks where Andrew's summaries were my best clue about what was
happening on Python-Dev (I read c.l.py first, because, well, *somebody*
ought to <wink>).
Nathaniel Gray
> [cc'd to Andrew Kuchling]
>
> In article <95v3mt$lnh$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,
> Andrew Dalke <da...@acm.org> wrote:
> >
> > [...]
>
> I'm adding a strong "Me, too!" to everything Andrew D. said.
Me too, too.
> The idea doesn't thrill me, but one possible way to handle this would be
> to gateway python-dev to a moderated newsgroup.
It sounds like a good idea to me.
I'm a bit puzzled by AMK's tone of disappointment with the fact that his
summaries haven't generated messages to python-dev. It's never been clear
to me that comments from the peanut gallery were appreciated on python-dev.
When subscription to a mailing list is advertised as "by invitiation only"
and the location of its archives is intentionally obscure, it sends a
strong message that outsiders are not welcome.
A moderated newsgroup seems like a much better vehicle if you intend for
the public to participate in the discussion of Python development without
sending the SNR plummetting. I imagine most people would hesitate to post
to a moderated newsgroup without having given their message a modicum of
thought. (Unlike *most* newsgroups ;^)
Nonetheless, a hearty "thank you" to Andrew for taking the time to keep us
up to date for so long.
-n8
--
_.~'^`~._.~'^`~._.~'^`~._.~'^`~._.~'^`~._
Nathaniel Gray
California Institute of Technology
Computation and Neural Systems
n8gray <at> caltech <dot> edu
_.~'^`~._.~'^`~._.~'^`~._.~'^`~._.~'^`~._
Peter Hansen
>
> I'm a bit puzzled by AMK's tone of disappointment with the fact that his
> summaries haven't generated messages to python-dev. It's never been clear
> to me that comments from the peanut gallery were appreciated on python-dev.
> When subscription to a mailing list is advertised as "by invitiation only"
> and the location of its archives is intentionally obscure, it sends a
> strong message that outsiders are not welcome.
Hear hear!
When I first heard about python-dev and tried to find it,
but saw the "by invitation only" note, I thought to myself
"Dang... oh well, at least that guy who posts summaries
of ongoing discussions from python-dev is willing to post
those summaries of ongoing discussions from python-dev."
AMK, I appreciate the effort required for such "volunteer"
work, and the way limited feedback makes it seem like a
pointless endeavour. I think there might actually be a _huge_,
but silent (and somewhat silenced), audience for those summaries
and I hate to see them go.
Rest assured that had I really seen something objectionable,
and had it not already been available as a thread in c.l.p,
I would have inquired in c.l.p myself. The fact that that
hasn't happened (much?) with me or some others should
perhaps be taken more as a sign of how well the caretakers
of Python are doing their (volunteer) job, and not as
a sign of disinterest on our part.
In any case, I too thank you for your past efforts.
Andrew MacIntyre
> I read c.l.py first, because, well, *somebody* ought to <wink>.
And I am most appreciative of your presence and insight.
I have to say that it disappoints me that Guido has found it necessary to
retreat from this community into the monastery of python-dev. I fear that
Python's priesthood and citizenry will lose contact with each other as a
result. It won't happen overnight, but incrementally.
Tom
interesting and informative, but more importantly, they make Python 'feel'
more open and inclusive.
Tom.
"Andrew Kuchling" <akuc...@mems-exchange.org> wrote in message
news:3d4ry56...@ute.cnri.reston.va.us...
> Python-dev summary, January 16-31, 2001
> =======================================
>
> To comment on material in this python-dev summary, you can simply post
> to comp.lang.python / <pytho...@python.org>. These summaries are
> archived at <URL:http://www.amk.ca/python/dev/>.
>
> This two week period saw the release of the first alpha of Python 2.1,
> and the second alpha was released a few days into February. There's a
> lot of bugfixing going on, much of which isn't of interest here, but
> there were a few general discussions worth noting.
>
>
> 2.1alpha1
> =========
>
> The first alpha of Python 2.1 was released on January 22, and is the
> debut of Python 2.1. It didn't compile cleanly on Cygwin, and the new
> autodetecting build system needs some more work to support more
> platforms correctly, but no major problems or brown paper bag bugs
> showed up.
>
> 2.1alpha2 was subsequently released on February 2, slightly out of the
> bounds of this summary. 2.1a2 incorporated the nested scopes from PEP
> 227 and the weak reference type from PEP 205.
>
> A draft of "What's New in Python 2.1" is available, and will be
continuously
> updated until 2.1final is shipped:
> http://www.amk.ca/python/2.1/
>
>
> unistr()
> ========
>
> M.-A. Lemburg checked in a unistr() built-in, but later backed out the
> change after subsequent discussion. str() takes any Python object and
> converts it to a string, and unistr() would take any object and return
> a Unicode string. ?!ng wondered why the existing unicode() built-in
> shouldn't do this -- currently it only accepts a string and an optional
> encoding -- or should this functionality be added to str()?
>
> This also raised the question of how a type could return a Unicode
> representation of itself. Should the tp_str slot in the Py_TypeObject
> struct be permitted to return either an 8-bit or a Unicode string, or
> should a tp_unicode slot be added? Some discussion followed, but no
> clear answer was apparent, so unistr() was removed. This issue will
> probably have to wait for a PEP to be written, which means that it'll
> have to wait until 2.2.
>
>
> Sets
> ====
>
> Eric S. Raymond posted the docs for a set module he's written with an
> eye toward getting it into the standard library. "The \module{set}
> module defines functions for treating lists and other sequences as
> mathematical sets, and defines a set class that uses these operations
> natively and overloads Python's standard operator set."
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-January/012005.html
>
> But there's already a PEP for a set type, #218 by Greg Wilson:
> http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0218.html
>
> Reconciling the two proposals doesn't seem difficult, but opinion was
> divided: are sets so commonly used that they should be in the standard
> library, particularly if dictionaries can be used to implement many
> common set operations?
>
> ?!ng pointed out that simply allowing "if key in dict" would make
> using dictionaries as sets a bit more natural. /F agreed, and GvR
> added "You know, I've long resisted this, but I agree now -- this is
> the right thing." Thomas Wouters submitted a patch, but it hasn't yet
> been checked in.
>
> A subthread wondered about the related question of 'for X in
> dictionary:' Should this do anything, and if so, what? X could be
> "key" or "key, value", but the best choice isn't obvious. Another
> subthread drifted into the question of the Batteries Included
> distribution proposed by Moshe Zadka in PEP 206, and yet another one
> proposed dictionaries that can be marked as unmodified ("frozen" or
> "locked"). No clear conclusions were made, and the problems seem
> messy enough that a PEP will be required, so this is another thing
> likely to be postponed until 2.2.
>
>
> Envoi
> =====
>
> This will be the last python-dev summary I write, accounting for its
> rushed and sketchy quality.
>
> The goal of these summaries has been to make the discussions on
> python-dev more visible to the community, letting people offer timely
> comments while a thread is still reasonably current and fresh in
> memory. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen, and no messages to
> python-dev are spurred by them. Ideally people would come forward to
> say "The last summary mentioned you were talking about X. I use X a
> lot, and here's what I think: ...", but that isn't happening.
>
> The release of 2.1 offers a second calibration on their effectiveness.
> 2.1 is the first Python release to have been carried out using PEPs as
> the mechanism, so there are no sizable changes in 2.1 that don't have
> a corresponding PEP. Yet many people were *surprised* by some of the
> changes in Python 2.1 such as function attributes and nested scopes,
> even though PEPs were written and discussed, often in lengthy threads
> months ago.
>
> To me, this makes it crystal clear that the summaries aren't achieving
> their goal of making the development process more transparent to the
> community. Perhaps giving the PEPs higher visibility -- posting
> announcements of status changes and new PEPs to
> comp.lang.python.announce, for example -- would do a better job, and
> it would definitely require less effort. In any case, I feel there's
> no point in continuing to write them.
>
> (Should anyone want to volunteer to continue writing them, please do
> so; contact me if you want copies of the previous summaries for a
> complete archive.)
>
> My thanks to the various people who've offered comments and
> encouragement along the way; you've all kept me going over the last 7
> months...
>
>
> Related Links
> =============
>
> Python-dev archives:
> http://www.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/
>
> Python project page on SourceForge:
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/python
>
> Python Enhancement Proposals (PEPs):
> http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/
>
> What's New in Python 2.1
> http://www.amk.ca/python/2.1/
>
Paul Moore
wrote:
>Oh yeah, I forgot:
I agree entirely. I follow python-dev avidly, but I hate the web
interface for doing so. The tone of the comments on the subscription
page seem to make it vey clear that "casual observers" are not
welcome, and that is all I would be likely to be.
I may well be glad to make the odd comment, but I cannot commit myself
to any significant level of participation, so I am stuck with only the
web interface.
I'd argue for, at the least, making python-dev available freely on a
"read only" basis, and preferably allowing open access, with a strong
policy of keeping postings on-topic (I don't really have a feeling
that the Python community would abuse write access to python-dev, but
it is a potential issue, witness the perl5 porters list...)
But nevertheless, thanks Andrew for the work you have done.
Paul Moore.
Paul Moore
<akuc...@mems-exchange.org> wrote:
>Note that you *can* send messages to python-dev; only
>subscription is limited.
Um. So let's just get this straight. Anyone can post to python-dev,
anyone can read it via the web interface, so the only purpose of the
restricted access is to stop people being able to read the content via
a mailreader....???
This is seriously dumb. The subscription process does nothing
practical apart from making it *look like* the Python development team
are insular and unwilling to accept input from the community?
Please, someone. Straighten this out, or explain the reasons behind
the current setup!
Paul.
Aahz Maruch
Nathaniel Gray <n8g...@caltech.edu.is.my.email.address> wrote:
>
>A moderated newsgroup seems like a much better vehicle if you intend for
>the public to participate in the discussion of Python development without
>sending the SNR plummetting. I imagine most people would hesitate to post
>to a moderated newsgroup without having given their message a modicum of
>thought. (Unlike *most* newsgroups ;^)
Actually, I was thinking that this would be a one-directional gateway
from mailing list to newsgroup, no posting allowed.
--
--- Aahz (Copyright 2001 by aa...@pobox.com)
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
'Gender' isn't a definition, it's a heuristic. --Aahz
Tim Peters
> Um. So let's just get this straight. Anyone can post to python-dev,
> anyone can read it via the web interface, so the only purpose of the
> restricted access is to stop people being able to read the content via
> a mailreader....???
The purpose is to discourage people from posting. There's enough traffic on
Python-Dev from the blessed invitees without the flamewar-attracting ease of
hitting "reply" in a mail reader. If someone wants to post something to
Python-Dev, it takes them some effort to do so, and-- while I don't
particularly care for that myself either --it has been effective in reducing
noise.
You might think that a moderated list would do just as well, but it
wouldn't: at least half the Python-Dev traffic is about fixing bugs or
build problems in the latest CVS snapshot, and that goes on around the clock
(it's an international crew). The Python-Dev people are *developing* Python
(writing code, writing docs, writing PEPs, running tests, porting to new
platforms, ...), and need to communicate as quickly as possible about
current development issues. A moderator would get in the way of that; and
nobody has the spare bandwidth to play moderator anyway.
BTW, back when this kind of thing was discussed on c.l.py, people complained
about *that*. Business as usual ...
If you want to argue for a language change, you have to get Guido's ear, and
the only sure way to do that (whether or not you're on Python-Dev!) is to
write a PEP. Some of the Python-Dev discussions are interesting, but I bet
far fewer than you imagine.
then-again-there's-a-sure-way-for-you-to-find-out-ly y'rs - tim
Paul Moore
wrote:
>The purpose is to discourage people from posting. There's enough traffic on
>Python-Dev from the blessed invitees without the flamewar-attracting ease of
>hitting "reply" in a mail reader.
Good point. That seems fair.
>If someone wants to post something to Python-Dev, it takes them some effort
>to do so, and-- while I don't particularly care for that myself either --
>it has been effective in reducing noise.
OK, that makes sense. And experience is the best way to know, so if it
has worked, then I can't really argue...
>If you want to argue for a language change, you have to get Guido's ear, and
>the only sure way to do that (whether or not you're on Python-Dev!) is to
>write a PEP. Some of the Python-Dev discussions are interesting, but I bet
>far fewer than you imagine.
Actually, I'm sad enough that I enjoy watching the process of language
design "in action", and I find python-dev a very interesting list to
read. I know - I've been watching you :-)
>then-again-there's-a-sure-way-for-you-to-find-out-ly y'rs - tim
only-via-the-web-ly y'rs - Paul. :-)
Tim Peters
Just a note to let people know that schemes are afoot to make this easier.
Guido does not want to open the list up, but is quite in favor of making it
easier to follow. Whether or not you're all being ignored, he certainly
doesn't like it to *appear* that you're being ignored <wink>. Can't yet say
exactly how, though.
"Trust Guido".
that-is-all-ye-know-on-earth-and-all-ye-need-to-know-ly y'rs - tim
Nathaniel Gray
>
> Actually, I was thinking that this would be a one-directional gateway
> from mailing list to newsgroup, no posting allowed.
True, this would help keep the common folk up to date with Python-dev, but
it sounded to me like the dev crew was disappointed that there hadn't been
any feedback generated by the summaries. If feedback is actually what they
want (maybe it isn't, and maybe it shouldn't be), I don't see this idea
solving the problem.
Andrew Dalke
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
>
>says in bold that
>
> Subscription is by invitation only.
>
>and adds
>
> This is a closed list
I was rooting around for the iterator thread. I found
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-February/012828.html
which says
> > p.s. I have set up http://groups.yahoo.com/group/python-iter and
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/python-sets; Guido, would you prefer
> > discussion of sets and iterators to be moved to these lists, or to
> > stay on python-dev?
>
> Let's move these to egroups for now.
>
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
I assume "egroups" is "groups.yahoo.com". I went to the
list to see the current discussion status. I could not
because
Options
· Listed in directory
· Open membership
· Unmoderated
· All members may post
>> · Archives for members only
· Email attachments are permitted
Needless to say, I am not a member so I can't even see the
archives of this thread. And there is no way I'm going to
give Yahoo and their mutable terms of services my email
address and other personal data. I'ld rather just complain
annoyingly to c.l.py :) Besides, it looks like there's only
a single message in the archive.
Andrew Dalke
da...@acm.org
Tim Peters
> ...
> Needless to say, I am not a member so I can't even see the
> archives of this thread. And there is no way I'm going to
> give Yahoo and their mutable terms of services my email
> address and other personal data. I'ld rather just complain
> annoyingly to c.l.py :)
I liked life better when language changes were slugged out on c.l.py. There
are soooooo many archives and semi-private mailing lists and utterly pvt
emails now-- and all of them, like this msg, with useless Subject lines --I
just don't know where to look anymore either. And I spend hours on this
stuff every day of my miserable life.
But, there's so much traffic on Python-Dev alone that I doubt Guido can
afford to spend significant time on c.l.py anymore, and he's been pushing to
move discussions to venues like egroups for at least a year.
If I ever get time to write a PEP, I'll go back to slugging it out on
c.l.py. But people will complain about that too -- they did before, and I
doubt that human nature is changing as quickly as Python <0.9 wink>.
That said, giving Yahoo an email address isn't going to ruin your credit
rating, and you can lie about everything else.
no-payback-in-being-unique<wink>-ly y'rs - tim
Aahz Maruch
Nathaniel Gray <n8g...@caltech.edu.is.my.email.address> wrote:
>Aahz Maruch wrote:
>>
>> Actually, I was thinking that this would be a one-directional gateway
>> from mailing list to newsgroup, no posting allowed.
>
>True, this would help keep the common folk up to date with Python-dev, but
>it sounded to me like the dev crew was disappointed that there hadn't been
>any feedback generated by the summaries. If feedback is actually what they
>want (maybe it isn't, and maybe it shouldn't be), I don't see this idea
>solving the problem.
As I said in another post, if Followup-To goes to c.l.py, everything is
hunky-dory.
--
--- Aahz (Copyright 2001 by aa...@pobox.com)
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het <*> http://www.rahul.net/aahz/
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
Why doesn't "Just Say NO" include caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, Prozac,
and Ritalin? --Aahz
Andrew Dalke
>I liked life better when language changes were slugged out on
>c.l.py. There are soooooo many archives and semi-private
>mailing lists and utterly pvt emails now-- and all of them,
> like this msg, with useless Subject lines -- I
>just don't know where to look anymore either. And I spend hours
>on this stuff every day of my miserable life.
*Sniff* I remember the good old days, when there were only
a couple of messages a day and I looked forward to reading
each one. *Siff*, *sniff* Now I just hit "kill thread" a
lot :) Maybe I should start using another language as
obscure as Python was 5 years ago.
>he's been pushing to
>move discussions to venues like egroups for at least a year.
Here's a thought. Why not set up an NNTP server for
python development?
Bear in mind that I know nothing about how complicated that
is, but here's what I'm thinking about.
Keep c.l.py around as the main list. Have a new news server
for development only, with a single main group which is
python-dev. Newsgroups can be moderated or unmoderated,
and I imagine it would be easy to automatically pass on
mail from specified people.
When a discussion thread gets to be too involved, create
a new newsgroup (which can be open or closed) and spin off
the discussions there. Newsgroup creation can be done
very easily, if the alt.* groups are any indication.
If someone like me wants to follow the articles, I just
connect to the news server and see which groups are
available. This lets me use all my local tools for reading,
threading an searching rather than depending on pipermail.
It can even be better since I only need to download the
archive once rather than (as I was yesterday) flipping back
and forth among different pages. It also lets me read
attachements directly.
Archiving of newsgroups can be done by keeping all
posts and/or migrating old posts to a pipermail archive.
And of course people who want to use email can use
standard gateways between news and mail.
Why wouldn't this work?
Andrew
da...@acm.org
Aahz Maruch
There's no intrinsic reason this wouldn't work. News servers are one of
the most robust bits of software around, taking relatively little
maintenance. The main problem is on the client side: most people aren't
familiar with using multiple news servers, and many newsreaders don't
make it easy to do so.
Andrew Dalke
> The main problem is on the client side: most people aren't
>familiar with using multiple news servers, and many newsreaders don't
>make it easy to do so.
Although Netscape and IE both allow that. All you need is
the "news:" URL.
I believe xrn doesn't support multiple servers, but it's been
a long time since I used it. Looking at sourceforge, it
does appear that trn supports multiple groups, so there's
still the vt100 support! :)
I also forgot to add, Mozilla hosts their development via
their own news server (see http://www.mozilla.org/community.html )
and Freshmeat makes their announcements available as well
(see http://freshmeat.net/faq/view/18/).
Andrew
da...@acm.org
Tim Peters
> ...
> Here's a thought. Why not set up an NNTP server for
> python development?
Believe it or not, that's already being talked about, by people who know far
more than me about this kind of stuff. It's attractive! The problems are
"the usual": finding a well-connected machine with spare cycles and bytes
that won't be taken away, not stepping on anyone's political toes, and
conjuring up a wizard with the spare bandwidth to bring it into existence
and to care for it when it's sick forever after. Note that over the last 3
months, even the Python mailing lists have been sick more often than not --
and we're still not sure that they're fully recovered, because nobody has
had the time to figure out *why* the last batch of gross problems just
seemed to go away by magic. You really trust us to manage an NNTP-based
approach <0.9 wink>?
there's-a-reason-we-love-sourceforge-ly y'rs - tim
Michael Ströder
>
> In article <96kemo$tum$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net>,
> Andrew Dalke <da...@acm.org> wrote:
> >
> >Why wouldn't this work?
>
> familiar with using multiple news servers, and many newsreaders don't
> make it easy to do so.
And many people are sitting behind firewalls and do only have access
to one general internal news server.
BTW: This is the same discussion like splitting
news:comp.lang.python. This has advantages and disadvantages.
Ciao, Michael.
Thomas Wouters
> > Here's a thought. Why not set up an NNTP server for
> > python development?
> Believe it or not, that's already being talked about, by people who know far
> more than me about this kind of stuff. It's attractive! The problems are
> "the usual": finding a well-connected machine with spare cycles and bytes
> that won't be taken away, not stepping on anyone's political toes, and
> conjuring up a wizard with the spare bandwidth to bring it into existence
> and to care for it when it's sick forever after. Note that over the last 3
> months, even the Python mailing lists have been sick more often than not --
> and we're still not sure that they're fully recovered, because nobody has
> had the time to figure out *why* the last batch of gross problems just
> seemed to go away by magic. You really trust us to manage an NNTP-based
> approach <0.9 wink>?
Pfiffle. Regardles of whether the idea is workable or not, these *technical*
issues are non-issues. I (and the company I work for, XS4ALL) have offered
sponsorship in the form of machines and maintenance multiple times. (In
fact, I keep offering it whenever I mail Barry, when the lists seem sickish
again :-) The original offer was for webservers/mailservers, but there is no
reason to make it (or include into it) NNTP servers. And we have ample
bandwidth and experience in running NNTP servers.
I don't trust *you* to manage a UNIX system, Tim, and I doubt I trust Guido
to touch one of my systems<wink>, but I certainly trust me and my colleagues
;)
--
Thomas Wouters <tho...@xs4all.net>
Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!
Andrew Dalke
>And many people are sitting behind firewalls and do only have access
>to one general internal news server.
But I did mention that the newsgroup messages can still be
archived and made available via pipermail, so python-dev
access would be no worse than what there is now.
>BTW: This is the same discussion like splitting
>news:comp.lang.python. This has advantages and disadvantages.
Excepting there is already a proliferation of spun off
lists in python-dev (eg, to egroups). So this is a suggestion
on how to pull them together in one place.
Andrew
da...@acm.org
Aahz Maruch
Thomas Wouters <tho...@xs4all.net> wrote:
>
>Pfiffle. Regardles of whether the idea is workable or not, these *technical*
>issues are non-issues. I (and the company I work for, XS4ALL) have offered
>sponsorship in the form of machines and maintenance multiple times. (In
>fact, I keep offering it whenever I mail Barry, when the lists seem sickish
>again :-) The original offer was for webservers/mailservers, but there is no
>reason to make it (or include into it) NNTP servers. And we have ample
>bandwidth and experience in running NNTP servers.
>
>I don't trust *you* to manage a UNIX system, Tim, and I doubt I trust Guido
>to touch one of my systems<wink>, but I certainly trust me and my colleagues
Let me back this up: xs4all has one of the best reputations in the ISP
business. I don't have any personal experience, but several people I
trust rank xs4all right up with panix. I think this would likely be one
of the best things that could happen to the Python community, getting
the core hardware/software under professional management.
The only disadvantage I can think of is that xs4all isn't on the
continental US, but that means very little these days.
Thomas Wouters
[ Thomas Wouters suggests running an NNTP/list server for the Python
community ]
> Let me back this up [ .. ]
Since I've seen some positive reactions to this idea, I'm wondering how many
more I could get by explicitly asking for it :) I'm willing to try and get
my employee to cough up the machines, the place to locate them in a system
room and the connectivity to the 'net (and boy, that's some connectivity:)
but I'll only do that if it's actually considered useful. I'm pretty much
out of touch with 'the Python community' as an entity, so I'll have to ask
straight up:
- Do we need another way to get a list/forum for Pythonic discussions,
regardless of the exact medium ? I'm unsure what real alternatives there
are, but the initial look of groups.yahoo.com ("Give me your personal
data!") scares the old cyberhacker in me enough to protest against it. And
those of you who lived in the Netherlands during XS4ALL's ad campaign and
subsequent court cases, last year, should know why :)
I know about lists.sourceforge.net, but I doubt they want to bother
setting up lists for all Python projects. (Or maybe they do. I don't
know.) The same goes about starship.python.net, though I'm sure they are a
bit more willing to host python discussions :)
- For howmany projects/discussions, roughly ? Is it really worth setting up
a seperate machine/network for it ?
- What kind of forum would be desirable ? I was thinking newsgroups (with or
without an 'upfeed') gated to Mailman lists, but some webforum is possible
too.
Emile van Sebille
As long as you're asking... ;-)
One thing I've occasionally thought of trying to do is set
up a gateway for *all* of the varied python related SIG's,
mailing lists and newsgroups through to a private back-end
news server. I dropped out of most of my subscriptions last
year when there were a lot of mail related problems, but I
miss being able to follow the interesting topics as they
come across. Certainly the volume of mail on the python and
Zope lists alone keep me from re-subscribing, but I'm quite
happy browsing the python list on news.cis.dfn.de, and would
enjoy having news group access to browse and follow the
other lists. Perhaps an upfeed on the legitimate
newsgroups, but for the mailing list only groups, an e-mail
shot off to the list would suffice (assuming they accept
posts from non-subscribers... otherwise just subscribe).
Good luck with this. If you're counting votes, let me know.
I'm more than willing to vote again. ;-)
See you,
--
Emile van Sebille
em...@fenx.com
-------------------
"Thomas Wouters" <tho...@xs4all.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.982945084...@python.org...