Re: Favorite flavor of Linux? (for python or anything else)
Christoph Haas
> Looking to replace my older flavor of linux with something new. . .What
> are some of your favorites for python programming and anything else?
The operating system/distribution is not connected to the application
(Python). It will probably run everywhere. But we recently had this topic
and a majority seemed to vote for Ubuntu. I personally prefer Debian.
Christoph
--
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".signature" [Modified] 1 line --100%-- 1,48 All
malv
The best are Gentoo and Debian.
However, Python being very much an essential component of your distro,
not having Python2.4 as standard kind of eliminates Debian. Running two
versions in parallel is not the way to go.
Gentoo requires quite a bit of work though. As I have to support
several architectures, I looked around at Novell Suse and Ubuntu.
Especially if you want flawless notebooks on linux, these two seemed
best to me. I kind of discarded Ububtu because of the incompatibility
between the compiler coming with the latest version and the kernel. You
discover this quickly when trying to compile some kernel modules.
Ubuntu is quite nice if your technical demands don't require much. If
you're in python, you may one day run into some problem with addons.
So Suse is what I use right now. Besides their YAST they now feature
Synaptic. Overall, as nice as Ubuntu, somewhat easier with linux system
work.
I often wonder though whether I should not go back to Gentoo after all.
More work, but you never seem to run into problems like with Suse or
Ubuntu. Gentoo also has a very nice community always willing to help.
Documentation is also very nice at Gentoo. Novell is kind of a mess.
FWIW, that's my honest opinion.
malv
Aahz
Christoph Haas <em...@christoph-haas.de> wrote:
>
>The operating system/distribution is not connected to the application
>(Python). It will probably run everywhere. But we recently had this
>topic and a majority seemed to vote for Ubuntu. I personally prefer
>Debian.
Ubuntu *is* Debian, just repackaged. I used to prefer Debian until
stable wouldn't work with my newest machine because it was two years out
of date (this was *not* a machine with bleeding-edge components). Of
course, one can use Debian-testing, but that isn't packaged, and I want
a packaged OS.
--
Aahz (aa...@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire
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Luis M. Gonzalez
> are some of your favorites for python programming and anything else?
Ubuntu is developed by Canonical, a company owned by Mark Shuttleworth.
This guy is a fan of both linux and python, so if you want a linux
distro that gets along well with python, I guess Ubuntu is the best
choice.
If you read his website http://www.markshuttleworth.com/, you'll see
that this guy encourages development of software in Python, and he even
gransts money for developers.
Paul Boddie
> Ubuntu *is* Debian, just repackaged.
I think "is almost" would be more accurate than just "*is*", speaking
as a Kubuntu user with a passing familiarity of the current state of
Debian and Ubuntu package maintenance.
> I used to prefer Debian until stable wouldn't work with my newest machine because
> it was two years out of date (this was *not* a machine with bleeding-edge
> components). Of course, one can use Debian-testing, but that isn't packaged, and
> I want a packaged OS.
So, Ubuntu would fit the bill, then? It's a packaged OS (where I assume
that "packaged" is meant to describe the production of a
quality-assured, tested and signed-off release) which uses more modern
components than those typically found in Debian stable. Moreover, the
Ubuntu people do seem interested in having a good range of Python
packages ready to install using the package management system.
Paul
malv
better or worse.
I believe that shipping a linux with a compiler DIFFERENT from the one
that was used to build the kernel is not very bright. It may never
bother some users, but few software developpers will like this idea.
malv
Christoph Haas
> Christoph Haas <em...@christoph-haas.de> wrote:
> >The operating system/distribution is not connected to the application
> >(Python). It will probably run everywhere. But we recently had this
> >topic and a majority seemed to vote for Ubuntu. I personally prefer
> >Debian.
>
> Ubuntu *is* Debian, just repackaged.
I know. :) (Would be bad if I wouldn't.)
> I used to prefer Debian until stable wouldn't work with my newest
> machine because it was two years out of date (this was *not* a
> machine with bleeding-edge components).
The delay until Sarge was very long. But the release schedule has been
tightened. Etch will be released next year. So if you prefer having a
stable environment and can live with a (at max) two year old distribution
then it should be okay. (Besides: the hardware support is done by the
Linux kernel - not the GNU distribution. So that's likely not Debian's
fault.)
> Of course, one can use Debian-testing, but that isn't packaged, and
> I want a packaged OS.
You probably mean that Testing (the upcoming "Etch" stable release) is not
yet available as a "stable" release. But actually that doesn't make much
difference. From my personal experience most of the time 'testing' is
hardly less stable than any Ubuntu stable release. Ubuntu is just easier
to install and maintain because it has less bells and whistles and
provides a ready environment without needing much knowledge.
However the same packages that are currently in 'testing' will be 'stable'
later. You are just dealing with brand-new packages that may be buggier.
And you don't get reliable security support yet.
(I even run 'unstable' on my desktop. Not just because I need it for
development but also because it's mostly stable enough to work with.
I wouldn't run critical public services on it though. Python development
has never been a problem here.)
Regards
Brett Hoerner
less problems" on Gentoo. Updates are from source, but you don't have
to update mid-day while working on a project... if you really want the
new version of KDE (etc) then start an update and go to sleep, not a
big deal. Portage (package management) is amazing, also... for both
new and advanced users.
Also, I don't use it for the CFLAGS, etc. If Gentoo were the same
speed, or even mildly slower than Ubuntu, I would still use it. The
general speed boost is just a bonus. I use very simple (-O2 -pipe)
CFLAGS, by the way, but -march-pentium-m on my laptop makes a big
difference over -mcpu-i386 distros.
Luis M. Gonzalez
Hmmm... I'm not an expert in this subject but isn't Ubuntu based on
Debian?
Mike Meyer
> I have to add another vote for Gentoo. I agree that you just "have
> less problems" on Gentoo. Updates are from source,
Gentoo is one of my favorite Linux distributions - because it's the
the most like a BSD distribution, except not as mature. A lot of the
rough edges of Gentoo have been dealt with in FreeBSD. For instance,
you can update from source, but you can also get binary updates. jOn
the other hand, Gentoo uses technology that was designed after the BSD
systems, so has the potential to be better. But if you like Gentoo,
you might want to take a look at one fo the BSDs.
On the other hand, if you want a complete desktop system, Ubuntu has a
lot to offer.
<mike
--
Mike Meyer <m...@mired.org> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.
darren kirby
> A lot of the
> rough edges of Gentoo have been dealt with in FreeBSD. For instance,
> you can update from source, but you can also get binary updates.
You can sort of do this with Gentoo. Check out the "--usepkg", "--getbinpkg"
and "--buildpkg" emerge options. The only problem is that I don't think there
are many (any?) official repositories of binary packages, and if there are,
they don't have the full array of all packages available from portage. I
haven't checked in a while though, so this may be different now.
In any event, it is an excellant timesaver if you have a network of similar
systems. emerge from source on your staging server, build a bin package, and
push it to the rest of the systems.
-d
--
darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org/
"...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..."
- Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972
BartlebyScrivener
Debian? <<
I'm no expert either. I've played with Ubuntu and Debian, and Debian
seemed infinitely more stable, and also, for me, Debian installed more
easily.
Since it's a python board I'm most interested in the python
implications. I thought you could use, say, a stable Debian
distribution, and still download the newest version of Python to run on
it. Is that not so?
bs
Aahz
Christoph Haas <ha...@debian.org> wrote:
>On Sunday 04 December 2005 19:56, Aahz wrote:
>>
>> Of course, one can use Debian-testing, but that isn't packaged, and
>> I want a packaged OS.
>
>You probably mean that Testing (the upcoming "Etch" stable release) is not
>yet available as a "stable" release. But actually that doesn't make much
>difference. From my personal experience most of the time 'testing' is
>hardly less stable than any Ubuntu stable release. Ubuntu is just easier
>to install and maintain because it has less bells and whistles and
>provides a ready environment without needing much knowledge.
What I mean is that there's no stable ISO for Debian-testing, such that
there is a CD available that means something. With Ubuntu, there is a
named release with ISO and it's stable.
Mike C. Fletcher
>I have to add another vote for Gentoo.
>
And another here. Portage (the Python-coded package-management system)
does a very good job. I tend to use fairly conservative settings as
well, Gentoo's just nice and stable as a general rule, I don't care
about ultimate speed or tweaking the code much, I just find that
building everything from source (but without the headaches) tends to
make things work together well.
As far as Python support goes, Gentoo tends to work very well for Python
packages, Pygame and wxPython on AMD64, for instance, install flawlessly
out of the box (where others seem to have problems)... in fact most of
the major packages install reliably. There's a key note that you might
miss regarding the Python updating process, namely that you have to run
python-updater to rebuild all of your packages for the new Python
version, but once you know that, Pythonicity in Gentoo is pretty
straightforward.
Anyway, just a vote that's trying very hard to keep on-topic for the
python list,
Mike
--
________________________________________________
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
http://www.vrplumber.com
http://blog.vrplumber.com
malv
and found it very impractical to have to live with two Python versions
on the same system, given that Python, like also Perl, is used by so
many components. I may have done many things wrong but experience
taught me to better simplify things and live with one python version
only. It mainly depends on the (huge amount of) time you can afford to
straighten out avoidable problems.
I must say that since python 2.3 and 2.4 I never tried dual setups
anymore. Indeed, Debian would be my preferred distro if it weren't for
python 2.3.
malv
Fredrik Lundh
> Since it's a python board I'm most interested in the python
> implications. I thought you could use, say, a stable Debian
> distribution, and still download the newest version of Python
> to run on it.
works fine.
however, since applications shipped with the OS may depend on
the python version shipped with the OS, it's usually a good idea
to install newer releases with:
$ make altinstall
instead of the usual "make install".
(altinstall does a standard install, but doesn't replace the "python"
command, so you have to use e.g "python2.4" to start the new inter-
preter. code using just "python" will still run the standard version).
if you want to mix and match on a finer level, it's probably best to
do only local installs, and tweak the path as necessary.
</F>
BartlebyScrivener
windows with the hope of moving to Linux. I would have just assumed the
new Python would be backward compatible and didn't realize how
dependent the os was on the old version.. At least now I am aware of
the issues.
bs
Luis M. Gonzalez
that come with the distro.
I've played with Ubuntu's live Cd a little bit, and I saw it comes with
a lot of python related software, such as Boa Constructor, several
ides, editors, etc...
I ignore if other distros count with them as well..
Luis
malv
You will always find that you will from time to time have to download
software and/or versions that didn't come with your distro. This is
mostly no problem, especially not with python related software.
Michele Simionato
Knoppix/Kanotix)
and I like Debian more, but this is just me.
Michele Simionato
Jorgen Grahn
> I have been around quite a bit.
> The best are Gentoo and Debian.
> However, Python being very much an essential component of your distro,
> not having Python2.4 as standard kind of eliminates Debian.
Why? It's not as if Python 2.3 is suddenly worthless. Python 2.2 is the
default install (on RedHat something) where I work: there are still reasons
to program against an older release.
And besides, Debian Stable /does/ include Python 2.4:
http://packages.debian.org/stable/python/python2.4
> Running two
> versions in parallel is not the way to go.
Why not? It seems like a fairly small invonvenience to me.
I use Debian stable exclusively -- but people have different priorities and
I accept that (as long as they run Unix ;-). But any Unix today will come
with a reasonable Python installation; I don't see that as an important part
of the choice.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu
\X/ snipabacken.dyndns.org> R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
malv
been introduced in Python2.4
It would seem that you don't have any use for these. As I am still
relatively young in Python, I am very eager to keep up. If you would
have followed the posts on this board over last year or so, you should
have been informed about this.
Python2.3 didn't become worthless. It simply can't do what Python2.4
can.
Paul Boddie
> But any Unix today will come with a reasonable Python installation; I don't see that
> as an important part of the choice.
Yes, the days of Red Hat only shipping Python 1.5.2 are long gone. But
I don't fully agree with your conclusion, because the Python
installation is one small piece of developing and using Python
solutions, and having ready-made packages for some larger frameworks
and toolkits seriously reduces the effort required to start using them,
whilst increasing the exposure of those frameworks and toolkits.
For example, one thing I'd really like to see is the more widespread
adoption of PyKDE, since it would encourage more people to develop KDE
applications in Python, as opposed to lower-level languages, and thus
open the door to a larger number of good, reliable applications in that
environment. Unfortunately, many distributions still seem to subject
their users to the sometimes tricky process of an installation from
source that could put many people off - people who would otherwise just
pick up that toolkit.
If such talk of KDE makes your eyes glaze over, consider another
example: wxWidgets plus wxPython. Back in its days as wxWindows - in a
just world that would arguably still be its real name ;-) - the tower
of technologies (Gtk+, wxGtk, wxPython) seemed to involve razor edge
management of dependencies that frequently ended in compilation errors.
People may regard package management outside the strictest realm of
Pythondom as uninteresting (did the Python Eggs people ever speak to
the guy who develops the Smart Package Manager, for example?), but such
factors are critical to the convenience of Python users and for
Python's wider success.
Paul
Mike Meyer
to.
"malv" <mal...@telenet.be> writes:
> Any popular distro would. No one is really superior from this angle.
Assuming you mean would "come with nearly jeverything installed", I'd
have to disagree. Distros that are popular with me do minimalist
installs, and have everything available as packages.
malv
installed"? This is utterly ridiculous. Common sense could helped you
with that one.
malv
Jon Perez
> Looking to replace my older flavor of linux with something new. . .What
> are some of your favorites for python programming and anything else?
Still Slackware for me. Slackware is the 'true' Linux. To paraphrase
the Brooke Shields Calvin Klein ad - "Nothing comes between me and my kernel
(and utilities)".
;-)