OT: Why are western European clients so cheap compared to USA?
Mr. Nonsense
understood why Western European prospects are so cheap. For example:
US client will pay $100 for a software that can do 10 things
European client will pay $10 for a software that needs to do 100
things
They want the world for a dime. I don't understand this since their
standard of living is comparable to the US. Do programmers earn such
low wages that they can afford to hire them for peanuts to do
incredibly complex tasks? What's going on here?
Luuk
Nonsense
and OT !
--
Luuk
Mr. Nonsense
> Nonsense
>
> and OT !
>
> --
> Luuk
If it is nonsense then why do 95% of my clients come from the USA?
Whenever a foreign prospect inquires, they send a huge list of complex
requirements prefaced with, " we have very little budget."
My software is written in php and this seems to be the only active
newsgroup for programmers.
Luuk
Sorry, now its getting more on-topic...
I'm not aware of the type of audience you are addrsssing with your
software written in PHP.
Could it be that there is more interest for this kind of software in the
US, than in Europe? (Because there could be other products in Europe
already dealing with the same...)
True, most Europeans want to save money, but there are a lot of people
who want to pay enough money when they are convinced they buy something
good (and valuable) (and maintanable)
So, basically i dont think you gave enough info to come to a solid
conclusion for this question.
I will not buy your software, because i dont know what it does, and so i
dont care that it can do only 10 things....
--
Luuk
r0g
Well are you based in the US? I think that may explain it, you're a
higher perceived risk...
The only reason I would hire a foreign programmer is if they were
significantly cheaper than a UK one, you might want to meet them in
person and talk on the phone plus it feels like there's more
accountability if you're in the same country - it's harder to enforce
contracts across several thousand miles of ocean.
I think non-programmers in charge of hiring desire local programmers
even more strongly. I know I missed out on several jobs while I was
living in New York last year: enquiries from London who wanted someone
they could theoretically meet. Of course I've have had plenty of work
from London companies who I've never met in person so in reality ones
location is mostly irrelevant but non-programmers don't know that. I
think most people, when risking several thousands of pounds of their
businesses capital and employees time, like to feel they could at least
physically find/see the guy/gal they're hire if need be.
Compounded with this, and perhaps more important, people want someone
they can talk to in their native tongue. Quality of communication is
paramount in software projects - it can make or break them - so I don't
think it's surprising most people would prefer to hire somebody who
talks their language.
There's also national knowledge, there might be local law, data and data
formats foreign programmers would not be familiar with. Do you know what
the Norwegian postal code format is? Where to get reliable geocoding
data for Italian addresses? What Frances data protection and retention
laws are? If you needed to know do you have the language skills to
research those things? People will pay more for that stuff, if their
budget means they HAVE to consider offshore outsourcing they will expect
significant savings and want firm guarantees.
Roger.
Malcolm Dew-Jones
: I have been selling web based software for seven years and have never
: understood why Western European prospects are so cheap. For example:
: US client will pay $100 for a software that can do 10 things
: European client will pay $10 for a software that needs to do 100
: things
: They want the world for a dime. I don't understand this since their
: standard of living is comparable to the US.
Is it? When relatives visit me they often comment at how inexpensive
things are here, and how we appear to be much better off in a material
sense.
Wikipedia quotes IMF graphs to show income is higher in US than most other
places, and even a small drop in income can equate to a large drop in
disposable income (not that the countries can be directly compared as
easily as that, but it's a start).
Anyway, if you look at (for example) rentacoder you can find lots of US
customers that want to pay next to nothing for complete commercial quality
apps. Perhaps it's just your customers.
$0.10
satya-weblog.com
This gave me new insight about why local programmer or knowing local
setting etc can be useful.
FrobinRobin
quality is different to that of Europe .. so these things are cheaper
in the US. The UK is not cheap by a looong way (£4 for a single 20min
train journey that is cramped and delayed/cancelled.... give me the
American highway any day!)
Also the UK (especially) has a very high acceptance and usage of
OffShore resources (and even offshore-onshore) which are extremely
cheap... Americans on the other hand prefer "Homemade" or at least
"made in english".
But .. in the end it comes down to one thing IMO...
Supply and Demand..
Suppliers will charge what they can get away with, European customers
will shop around whereas American customers dont.
Adrienne Boswell
<mynon...@mynonsense.net> writing in news:7fb9542e-1e5c-40cc-b552-
b6504e...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
When I first looked at this post, I was a little confused, and then I
realized that my experience comes from living in Glendale, California
(US). Glendale is very European, maybe that's why it's cheaper to live
here than other parts of Los Angeles. I can get a pound of Challenge
butter at the local ethnic store for $2.99, or I can go to the big chain
super market and pay $5.49 for the same brand of butter. The ethnic
store might not be a "pretty" as the super market, and the ethnic
store's butter is a single slab, but I can cut the butter into sticks
when I get home if I wish, and the super market being pretty does
nothing to help me pay my bills. Guess where I shop.
--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
r0g
Well you're very welcome, thanks :) I suppose only needing 2 languages
to access a whole continent must make for a more competitive market
which, in turn, might explain the extra cheap tier of retail you get in
the US. This cheaper stuff is proportionally worse quality though, I
found stuff of comparable quality cost about the same as UK prices, on
average.
Roger.
r0g
Hehe, butter in sticks, that did tickle me :) Dairy products do seem a
lot more expensive over there, butter in the UK is ~ �1.00/lb for the
cheap stuff �1.50 for the posh stuff, milk is ~�2 per US Gallon here but
as high as $5 in NYC and decent cheese costs WAY more than in Europe.
Meat on the other hand is VERY cheap compared to the UK, as was the
Pizza - which is why I came back substantially fatter!
Roger.
Peter H. Coffin
> When I first looked at this post, I was a little confused, and then I
> realized that my experience comes from living in Glendale, California
> (US). Glendale is very European, maybe that's why it's cheaper to live
> here than other parts of Los Angeles. I can get a pound of Challenge
> butter at the local ethnic store for $2.99, or I can go to the big chain
> super market and pay $5.49 for the same brand of butter.
Man, those "contented California cows" are overpaid. Wisconsin cows make
butter for $2.70 a pound, to as little as $1.99 a pound.
--
The only thing I'd use on guinea-fowl is a shredder. Same with
peacocks. The sound of peacocks being shredded can't possibly be any
worse than the sound of peacocks not being shredded.
-- Tanuki
Adrienne Boswell
<hel...@ninehells.com> writing in
news:slrnhkaldu....@abyss.ninehells.com:
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:00:19 +0000 (UTC), Adrienne Boswell wrote:
>> When I first looked at this post, I was a little confused, and then I
>> realized that my experience comes from living in Glendale, California
>> (US). Glendale is very European, maybe that's why it's cheaper to
>> live here than other parts of Los Angeles. I can get a pound of
>> Challenge butter at the local ethnic store for $2.99, or I can go to
>> the big chain super market and pay $5.49 for the same brand of
>> butter.
>
> Man, those "contented California cows" are overpaid. Wisconsin cows
> make butter for $2.70 a pound, to as little as $1.99 a pound.
>
Damn straight! Well, they gotta pay for earth quake insurance, don't ya
know?
"Álvaro G. Vicario"
That's basically the situation in small software companies in Spain: a
programmer can earn the same salary as the girl in the reception desk.
Also, expenses are lower because employers do not normally feel it's
necessary to pay for software licenses when there're keygens available.
--
-- http://alvaro.es - �lvaro G. Vicario - Burgos, Spain
-- Mi sitio sobre programaci�n web: http://borrame.com
-- Mi web de humor satinado: http://www.demogracia.com
--
The Natural Philosopher
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:00:19 +0000 (UTC), Adrienne Boswell wrote:
>> When I first looked at this post, I was a little confused, and then I
>> realized that my experience comes from living in Glendale, California
>> (US). Glendale is very European, maybe that's why it's cheaper to live
>> here than other parts of Los Angeles. I can get a pound of Challenge
>> butter at the local ethnic store for $2.99, or I can go to the big chain
>> super market and pay $5.49 for the same brand of butter.
>
> Man, those "contented California cows" are overpaid. Wisconsin cows make
> butter for $2.70 a pound, to as little as $1.99 a pound.
>
$1.30 a half pound (250g)
The Natural Philosopher
> El 05/01/2010 21:08, Mr. Nonsense escribió:
>> I have been selling web based software for seven years and have never
>> understood why Western European prospects are so cheap. For example:
>>
>> US client will pay $100 for a software that can do 10 things
>> European client will pay $10 for a software that needs to do 100
>> things
>>
>> They want the world for a dime. I don't understand this since their
>> standard of living is comparable to the US. Do programmers earn such
>> low wages that they can afford to hire them for peanuts to do
>> incredibly complex tasks? What's going on here?
>
> That's basically the situation in small software companies in Spain: a
> programmer can earn the same salary as the girl in the reception desk.
> Also, expenses are lower because employers do not normally feel it's
> necessary to pay for software licenses when there're keygens available.
>
>
>
educated Indians in Mumbai working for about 1/0th the UK rate.
Captain Paralytic
wrote:
approaches and it is discovered that what the Indians wrote does not
match the spec.
The Natural Philosopher
When I were a lad...
matt
wrote:
Man, I'd love to make 1/0th of any rate! How many times does 0 go
into 1 again? ;)