New INTERCAL release -- 0.10
Eric Raymond
look for pub/esr/intercal-0.10.tar.gz.
This release fixes one long-standing bug in the compiler; it is now
possible to undo gerund abstentions with line number reinstatements,
and line-number abstentions with gerund reinstatements.
As contemplated in the 0.5 release notes, INTERCAL has been internationalized.
Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit, Tagalog,
Georgian, and Kwakiutl.
--
>>esr>>
Jonathan Badger
>As contemplated in the 0.5 release notes, INTERCAL has been internationalized.
>Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit, Tagalog,
>Georgian, and Kwakiutl.
Out of curiousity why those? Aren't they well, sort of unpopular compared to
say Spanish or Chinese?
Craig Dickson
|A new release of C-INTERCAL is now available for FTP at locke.ccil.org;
|look for pub/esr/intercal-0.10.tar.gz.
|
|This release fixes one long-standing bug in the compiler; it is now
|possible to undo gerund abstentions with line number reinstatements,
|and line-number abstentions with gerund reinstatements.
Excellent! This will finally make INTERCAL a truly powerful language. I
confidently predict that within five years INTERCAL will overtake C and
Lisp as the dominent language-of-choice of all true programmers everywhere.
Now if we can just get the DoD to reconsider...
|As contemplated in the 0.5 release notes, INTERCAL has been internationalized.
|Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit, Tagalog,
|Georgian, and Kwakiutl.
Arrgh!
If it doesn't support Mayan, Saxon, Axolotl or pig-Latin, what good is it?
--
Craig Dickson <c...@netcom.com>
"Inscrutable people tend to drink inscrutable beer." - Elizabeth of Windsor
World Wide Web alt.usenet.kooks archives: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/crd/auk.html
To receive the a.u.k FAQ, send me email with Subject: send alt.usenet.kooks faq
ScholR LEA
wr
>ites:
>
>
>>> Out of curiousity why those? Aren't they well, sort of unpopular
>>> compared to say Spanish or Chinese?
>
>>supported languages is in complete conformity with fundamental
>>design principle behind Intercal. Given that Intercal programs are,
>>as nearly as I can tell, completely and deliberately unreadable,
>>support for languages which few people understand is a great idea.
>
>Yes-- after your response I downloaded C-Intercal and studied the
>manual over dinner. I may even actually try using it. My question is:
>Was Intercal really meant to be taken seriously at one time? Or was it
>from the start a prank?
The mind boggles that that question would ever get asked...you read the
manual and *still* think it might have been *serious* at one time?
Trouble rather the|Schol-R-LEA;2 ____ |"I don't pray to the Zeitgeist,
tiger in his lair |Card Walloper \bi/ | the Zeitgeist prays through
than the scholar |CPU \/ | me! Ach, and what grotty
among his books |Frankenstein's Destroyers | nasty prayers they are!"
Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879
by bad...@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Jonathan Badger):
You obviously haven't studied your Intercal manual. The choice of
supported languages is in complete conformity with fundamental
design principle behind Intercal. Given that Intercal programs are,
as nearly as I can tell, completely and deliberately unreadable,
support for languages which few people understand is a great idea.
Doug Jones
jo...@cs.uiowa.edu
Jonathan Badger
>> Out of curiousity why those? Aren't they well, sort of unpopular
>> compared to say Spanish or Chinese?
>You obviously haven't studied your Intercal manual. The choice of
>supported languages is in complete conformity with fundamental
>design principle behind Intercal. Given that Intercal programs are,
>as nearly as I can tell, completely and deliberately unreadable,
>support for languages which few people understand is a great idea.
Yes-- after your response I downloaded C-Intercal and studied the
Craig Dickson
|Yes-- after your response I downloaded C-Intercal and studied the
|manual over dinner. I may even actually try using it. My question is:
|Was Intercal really meant to be taken seriously at one time? Or was it
|from the start a prank?
INTERCAL was IBM's early-70s attempt to take over the language market, as
distinguished from their mid-60s attempt, PL/I.
No, seriously, INTERCAL was a joke from the beginning. I should think
reading the manual would have made that obvious!
Olaf Seibert
>This release fixes one long-standing bug in the compiler; it is now
>possible to undo gerund abstentions with line number reinstatements,
>and line-number abstentions with gerund reinstatements.
Oh yes, I think I pointed that one out initially. Great! This will
double the use I will make of the language, at least!
I haven't looked at the currently included docs yet, but once I
cleaned up the original punch card dump file. because it had a
few botched EBCDIC->ASCII conversions. Any interest in that one?
-Olaf.
--
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert rhi...@mbfys.kun.nl Ooey-Gooey-Fluffy-Barfie
\X/ I'm not weird, I'm differently percepted. D787B44DFC896063 4CBB95A5BD1DAA96
Steven D. Majewski
>A new release of C-INTERCAL is now available for FTP at locke.ccil.org;
>look for pub/esr/intercal-0.10.tar.gz.
>
>This release fixes one long-standing bug in the compiler; it is now
>possible to undo gerund abstentions with line number reinstatements,
>and line-number abstentions with gerund reinstatements.
>
Well - now that that is fixed, I'll have to seriously re-evaluate
Intercal for some of our projects.
I have heard, however, some worries about developing in a language
that has really only one implementation. Has anyone considered
writing an Intercal interpreter in Perl, for example ?
>As contemplated in the 0.5 release notes, INTERCAL has been internationalized.
>Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit, Tagalog,
>Georgian, and Kwakiutl.
>--
> >>esr>>
Any plans for an Object-oriented extension to Intercal ?
( Perhaps abstentions could be used to implement "MOODY"
Objects which has a state or MOOD, consisting of a list
of messages they are currently ignoring, a list that they
are avidly interested in, and a "Whatever!" list. ( The
last would make them sort of like my daughter! ))
Or a GUI Library ?
( I only wish that Intercal-Windows could do that same for things for
user interface design that it's done for structured programming!
-- Steve Majewski (804-982-0831) <sd...@Virginia.EDU> --
-- UVA Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics --
-- Box 449 Health Science Center Charlottesville,VA 22908 --
[ "Cognitive Science is where Philosophy goes when it dies ...
if it hasn't been good!" - Jerry Fodor ]
Steven D. Majewski
>look for pub/esr/intercal-0.10.tar.gz.
>
Being that the pervious release was 0.9 , shouldn't the current release
be version 0.8 ? ( going from 0.9 to 0.1 is a *BIG* jump for the minor
changed announced to the implementation! But, even if they slipped on
the magnitude, they at least got the direction correct! )
Bill Rayer
to be practically unusable, might I suggest development of
a Windows version with access to the Windows API?
The combination of Intercal with the 1000+ functions in the
Windows API would produce a development environment of impressive
obscurity. I may even have to stop using C++ and the class
libraries, on the grounds of professional jealousy.
Bill Rayer
Jan-Pieter Cornet
> Or a GUI Library ?
>
> ( I only wish that Intercal-Windows could do that same for things for
> user interface design that it's done for structured programming!
Too late. Everybody else has already done this... Refer to the other
poster comparing Intercal to the microsuck windoze API. I wonder which
approach makes coming up with something that actually works harder...
Regards,
=====BEGIN FRACTAL-COMPRESSED SIGNATURE===== | Jan-Pieter Cornet
!PGP0XA4E77CCB/KVC=1FCBE41048A009550F68867928EB8DDF | <jo...@pc.xs4all.nl>
=====END FRACTAL-COMPRESSED SIGNATURE===== ;-)
My v2.6 decompressor (out soon!) will expand this to a 72 minutes MPEG movie!
Joe Armstrong
to be able to do would be to add "in-line" fragments of code in other
languages something like:
PLEASE EDIT <String> WITH <Script> WRITTEN-IN <Lang>
<Expr> = "any string"
<Script> = "a <Lang> script"
<Lang> = TECO | M4 | INTERCAL etc.
Joe
Steve Dunham
: While of the subect of extensions to INTERCAL what I'd really like
: to be able to do would be to add "in-line" fragments of code in other
: languages something like:
kinda like C code on the NeXt - with bits of Smalltalk and PostScript
strewn throughout it...
In defense of those asking if Intercal started out as a serious
language, I would like to point out COBOL was intended to be a serious
language... :)
Steve
dun...@gdl.msu.edu
Jay Maynard
Scott Forbes <for...@ihlpf.ih.att.com> wrote:
>+-- c...@netcom.com (Craig Dickson) writes:
>|Eric Raymond writes:
>||As contemplated in the 0.5 release notes, INTERCAL has been internationalized.
>||Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit, Tagalog,
>||Georgian, and Kwakiutl.
How are you going to get it to spit at the user, though?
(If there is one language out there that would be suited to spitting at
users, though, it would be INTERCAL...)
--
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmay...@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu | adequately be explained by stupidity.
The US Constitution: 1789-1994. RIP.
Scott Forbes
||Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit, Tagalog,
||Georgian, and Kwakiutl.
|
|Arrgh!
|
|If it doesn't support Mayan, Saxon, Axolotl or pig-Latin, what good is it?
If there is any one language INTERCAL should support, it is Klingon.
Eric Raymond
: Oh yes, I think I pointed that one out initially. Great! This will
: double the use I will make of the language, at least!
Perhaps. But if you're smart, twice zero will remain zero.
: I haven't looked at the currently included docs yet, but once I
: cleaned up the original punch card dump file. because it had a
: few botched EBCDIC->ASCII conversions. Any interest in that one?
Eh? Dump file of what? And where did you get it?
--
>>esr>>
Eric Raymond
: If there is any one language INTERCAL should support, it is Klingon.
What an unimpeachably brilliant idea! Don't just sit there, send me a
list of Klingon digit names. Don't forget the zero.
--
>>esr>>
Eric Raymond
: I propose instead that we adopt the international language Volapuk as the
: standard international language for Intercal keywords.
You, sir, are clearly a warped and sick individual. Like, er, me.
After reading Scott Forbes's suggestion that Klingon be added to the
supported languages, I immediately realized that Volapuk support was
the next logical step in the progression.
: Is it time yet to start holding standardization meetings? Can we convince
: ANSI and/or ISO of this pressing need? Are there any good sites for the
: meetings?
Sure. I'll throw open my digs in Malvern, PA, for this noble effort. The
mega-futon on my third floor could probably hold the entire world INTERCAL
community in a pinch.
--
>>esr>>
Ben Coleman
>In article <Cw10A...@nntpa.cb.att.com>,
>>If there is any one language INTERCAL should support, it is Klingon.
>How are you going to get it to spit at the user, though?
I'm sure, somewhere out there, there is a company working on a saliva
interface. It'll be a required peripheral(among others) when someone comes
out with a line of designer 'punk' computers.
Ben
--
Ben Coleman NJ8J | "All that is not eternal is
Internet: b...@nj8j.atl.ga.us or | eternally out of date."
bcol...@mindspring.com | C. S. Lewis
D. Dale Gulledge
Eric Raymond writes:
|A new release of C-INTERCAL is now available for FTP at locke.ccil.org;
|look for pub/esr/intercal-0.10.tar.gz.
|
|This release fixes one long-standing bug in the compiler; it is now
|possible to undo gerund abstentions with line number reinstatements,
|and line-number abstentions with gerund reinstatements.
Excellent! This will finally make INTERCAL a truly powerful language. I
confidently predict that within five years INTERCAL will overtake C and
Lisp as the dominent language-of-choice of all true programmers everywhere.
Now if we can just get the DoD to reconsider...
|As contemplated in the 0.5 release notes, INTERCAL has been internationalized.
|Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit, Tagalog,
|Georgian, and Kwakiutl.
Arrgh!
If it doesn't support Mayan, Saxon, Axolotl or pig-Latin, what good is it?
To be properly internationalized requires that it accept an international
language. While English certainly serves this purpose, I would suggest that
it is too widely used and therefore prone to misinterpretation because of
widely varied usage.
For historical reasons it is probably impossible to remove English keywords
from Intercal. There are dozens if not hundreds of working programs out there
that would be affected. Nonetheless, warning messages should probably be
issued when English keywords are used.
Esperanto, to a lesser extent than English suffers the same problem of having
a large body of speakers. It has a well established pattern of usage that
cannot easily be bent to the service of Intercal.
I propose instead that we adopt the international language Volapuk as the
standard international language for Intercal keywords. Almost no one speaks
it since roughly a century ago most people with any interest in artificial
languages realized that Esperanto was much easier too learn. However, books
can be found, with difficulty, that describe its grammar and vocabulary.
Thus, the blame^H^H^H^H^Hcredit for Intercal keywords could easily be shared
with several people who are long since dead.
Is it time yet to start holding standardization meetings? Can we convince
ANSI and/or ISO of this pressing need? Are there any good sites for the
meetings?
- Dale
--
My employer's opinions are published | Lernu paroli Esperanton!
elsewhere. These opinions are strictly |
my own. |
--
d...@cci.com, D. Dale Gulledge, Software Engineer, Northern Telecom,
Directory & Operator Services, 97 Humboldt St., Rochester, NY 14609
Steve Dunham
If anyone sends you a list of klingon digit names, don't forget that
they are case sensistive...
(It would be better if we could use the klingon alphabet. Maybe we
should develop a 16-bit EBCDIC extention for internationalized
Intercal to use...)
Steve
dun...@gdl.msu.edu
Adam Justin Thornton
>Sure. I'll throw open my digs in Malvern, PA, for this noble effort. The
>mega-futon on my third floor could probably hold the entire world INTERCAL
>community in a pinch.
Followups, I assume, to alt.sex.intercal.
How far is Malvern from Princeton?
Adam
--
ad...@io.com | ad...@phoenix.princeton.edu | Viva HEGGA! | Save the choad!
"Double integral is also the shape of lovers curled asleep" : Pynchon
64,928 | TEAM OS/2 | "Ich habe einen Bierbauch!" | Linux | Fnord
You can have my PGP passphrase when you pry it from my cold, dead brain.
Eric Raymond
: How far is Malvern from Princeton?
Maybe 90 minutes by car.
--
>>esr>>
Craig Dickson
|In defense of those asking if Intercal started out as a serious
|language, I would like to point out COBOL was intended to be a serious
|language... :)
And the PILOT standard was updated just a couple of years ago...
Horrifying, isn't it, how long these silly languages persist?
Eric Raymond
: And the PILOT standard was updated just a couple of years ago...
:
: Horrifying, isn't it, how long these silly languages persist?
Hah. You don't know the half of it. My second retrocompiler, after
C-INTERCAL, was the reference implementation of IEEE pilot. The
distribution, available for FTP at locke.ccil.org:pub/esr/pilot-1.6.tar.gz,
includes a paper on just why and how much the IEEE standard sucks moldy
maggot turds.
--
>>esr>>
Bruce Baugh
It seems to me that INTERCAL should also support Lobjan, Loglan, or both.
There's nothing like completely incomprehensible alleged rationality to give
the right frisson to lunacy, yes?
A friend of mine also expresses an interest in cuneiform and/or hieroglyphic
I/O, should a Windows version ever be developed. He likes discipline in hiis
coding. (Not to mention bondage.)
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|bru...@teleport.com Bruce Baugh, thoroughly unaffiliated with Teleport|
| "An' besides you IS a rabbit." "Not a 'nothing-BUT-a-rabbit', tho'." |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Ian Young
>After reading Scott Forbes's suggestion that Klingon be added to the
>supported languages, I immediately realized that Volapuk support was
>the next logical step in the progression.
A further suggestion, if I may. I'd like to suggest that Lojban be
supported. At first sight, this may seem perverse, given that the aims
of Lojban include to be a regular and logical language. However, the
choice seems far more attractive when one considers that the period,
comma and apostrophe are all considered as letters in the Lojban
alphabet.
I.
Jay Maynard
>Hah. You don't know the half of it. My second retrocompiler, after
>C-INTERCAL, was the reference implementation of IEEE pilot. The
>distribution, available for FTP at locke.ccil.org:pub/esr/pilot-1.6.tar.gz,
>includes a paper on just why and how much the IEEE standard sucks moldy
>maggot turds.
Aw, cmon, Eric...you're being understated again. Don't hold back...tell us
what you REALLY think of it.
Olaf Seibert
>: I haven't looked at the currently included docs yet, but once I
>: cleaned up the original punch card dump file. because it had a
>: few botched EBCDIC->ASCII conversions. Any interest in that one?
>
>Eh? Dump file of what? And where did you get it?
It was with the 0.6 release, I think. I noticed it wasn't present
anymore in the latest release. It looked like the most true copy
of the original documentation of the various copies that I've seen.
The file was a right-justified thing with fortran-style carriage
control characters (nicely suited for printing directly on IBM
iron, but not much else). I converted it to lpr-able format (with
backspaces and stuff).
Walter Misar
> +-- c...@netcom.com (Craig Dickson) writes:
> |Eric Raymond writes:
> ||Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit, Tagalog,
> ||Georgian, and Kwakiutl.
> |
>
> If there is any one language INTERCAL should support, it is Klingon.
And it definitely should support Quenya and Sindarin too.
--
Walter Misar mi...@rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de
mi...@hrz.th-darmstadt.de
GCS/M d?(-+) -p+(-) c++ !l u++ e++(*) m+ s/-- !n h(*) f !g w+ t+(-) r+ y?
Jeffrey David Smith
> In article <Cw10A...@nntpa.cb.att.com>, for...@marconi.ih.att.com (Scott Forbes) writes:
>> c...@netcom.com (Craig Dickson) writes:
>>>Eric Raymond writes:
>>>> Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit, Tagalog,
>>>> Georgian, and Kwakiutl.
>>>
>>> If it doesn't support Mayan, Saxon, Axolotl or pig-Latin, what good is it?
>>
>> If there is any one language INTERCAL should support, it is Klingon.
>
> And it definitely should support Quenya and Sindarin too.
>
And don't forget Assyrian, Aramaic, ancient Egyptian (Old AND New kingdoms,
please) and, of course, Linear-B.
smith
Eric Raymond
: It was with the 0.6 release, I think. I noticed it wasn't present
: anymore in the latest release. It looked like the most true copy
: of the original documentation of the various copies that I've seen.
Oh, that.
I removed it from the distribution because I thought it was redundant, given
Mike Ernst's TeX and ms versions. If you know differently, tell me please.
--
Eric S. Raymond <e...@snark.thyrsus.com>
Eric Raymond
: And it definitely should support Quenya and Sindarin too.
Digit list! Digit list!
D. Dale Gulledge
Does the keyword PLEASE translate into Klingon?
Peter da Silva
> <Expr> = "any string"
> <Script> = "a <Lang> script"
> <Lang> = TECO | M4 | INTERCAL etc.
Given the internationalization efforts, <Lang> must be restricted to
similarly interesting languages. I would suggest at the very least
that Autocoder, Forth-77, TECO, and ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL
be supported.
--
Peter da Silva `-_-'
Network Management Technology Incorporated 'U`
1601 Industrial Blvd. Sugar Land, TX 77478 USA
+1 713 274 5180 "Hast Du heute schon Deinen Wolf umarmt?"
Paul Colley
Richard A. O'Keefe <o...@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au> wrote:
>I'm not sure what to do about zero.
> su "lacking", is one possibility
> an ua "not one", is another.
Hey---if the language doesn't have a zero, it would hardly be faithful
language support to create one!
What, you wanted to make life easier for the programmer by such
barbaric hacks to an otherwise elegant programming language? Shame on
you!
- Paul Colley
University: col...@qucis.queensu.ca
Home: paco...@ember.uucp watmath!ember!pacolley +1 613 545 3807
"Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is,
of course, living in a state of sin." - John von Neumann
Linda K McIver
(: D. Dale Gulledge (d...@cci.com) wrote:
(: : Is it time yet to start holding standardization meetings? Can we convince
(: : ANSI and/or ISO of this pressing need? Are there any good sites for the
(: : meetings?
(: Sure. I'll throw open my digs in Malvern, PA, for this noble effort. The
(: mega-futon on my third floor could probably hold the entire world INTERCAL
(: community in a pinch.
I'm not sure about that - you might be surprised at the widespread
nature of the INTERCAL community. :-)
--
Linda K McIver lin...@dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au
--
"...the universe was full of ignorance all round and the scientist
panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream,
looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of reason, the sand
of uncertainty and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of
superstition."
- Terry Pratchett in _Witches Abroad_
Keith F. Lynch
> You, sir, are clearly a warped and sick individual. Like, er, me.
> After reading Scott Forbes's suggestion that Klingon be added to the
> supported languages, I immediately realized that Volapuk support was
> the next logical step in the progression.
What? Have you forgotten Lojban already?
> Sure. I'll throw open my digs in Malvern, PA, for this noble effort.
> The mega-futon on my third floor could probably hold the entire world
> INTERCAL community in a pinch.
You're missing a great financial opportunity. Standards organizations
and other professional conferences routinely charge hundreds of dollars
for attendance. Meals, airfare, and hotels not included.
What should this conference to add new standard Options to Intercal be
called? I know it's a silly name, but how about InterOp?
What's that? The name's taken?
Hmmm... Well, it's a Useless language, and it run under Unix, so how
about calling the conference Usenix?
That's taken too?
Just call it Lacretni. Charge e to the pi grams of gold to get in.
--
Keith Lynch, k...@access.digex.com
f p=2,3:2 s q=1 x "f f=3:2 q:f*f>p!'q s q=p#f" w:q p,?$x\8+1*8
Craig Dickson
|Does the keyword PLEASE translate into Klingon?
Probably as an imperative.
--
"90% of everything is crap" - T Sturgeon "111% of crap is everything" - L Wall
"Inscrutable people tend to drink inscrutable beer" - Elizabeth, a Guinness fan
Darin Johnson
I don't know if this will really be a problem. The standardization
committee should continue to require the compiler to issue
warnings about insufficient politeness, except that in the
Klingon case, issuing a loud growl will cause the compiler to
dump the executable.
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the
Frobozz Magic Hacking Company, or any other Frobozz affiliates.
Craig Dickson
1.6? Did you just update it in the last few days? I downloaded whatever
version was there the day you announced INTERCAL 0.10, but I thought it was
1.5. Maybe I'm misremembering. This reminds me, though, that I was unable
to run Pilot; it compiled, but gave a bus error instantly when executed. (I
was running it under SunOS 4.1 on a Sun 4.) I haven't taken it any farther
than that, or tried to debug it. Is this a problem you're already aware of?
Scott Forbes
somebody over there in rec.arts.startrek.misc can rattle them off.
Any help, Trek experts?
Eric Raymond
:: Sure. I'll throw open my digs in Malvern, PA, for this noble effort. The
:: mega-futon on my third floor could probably hold the entire world INTERCAL
:: community in a pinch.
:
: I'm not sure about that - you might be surprised at the widespread
: nature of the INTERCAL community. :-)
On the other hand, it's a *really* big futon.
Your name suggests that you are a woman, which in turn suggests that I'd
best refrain from making any of the jokes suggested by your description of
the INTERCAL community, on pain of being lynched by the sexism police. :-)
(Damn. There go a whole *bunch* of clever lines about fishnet stockings
and the sorts of lubricants usually appropriate for standards conferences.
Maybe we should create alt.sex.intercal after all.)
Eric Raymond
: What? Have you forgotten Lojban already?
No. I thought about it. But lojban support would be entirely too sane and
rational a feature for INTERCAL. The next logical step after Klingon was
clearly support of a *dead* synthetic language.
Solresol, Langue Bleu and Interlingua were all appealing. But, to those
few of us who know of it, the fusty 19th-century Germanic ponderosity of
Volapuk makes it *obviously* the Right Thing.
(History: Volapuk was a late-19th-century invention that was sort of
generalized-Teutonic-stripped-to-the-running-gears in the same way that
Esperanto is generalized-Latinate-stripped-to-the-running-gears. When
Dr. Zamenhof floated Esperanto, essentially the entire Volapuk community
migrated to it en masse, leaving Volapuk stranded like a dead whale on
the beach of history.)
: You're missing a great financial opportunity. Standards organizations
: and other professional conferences routinely charge hundreds of dollars
: for attendance. Meals, airfare, and hotels not included.
There's a good little diner/grill about a quarter-block away, right in
front of the train station. And my cat will probably want to bump noses
with each attendee. You can give me hundreds of dollars if you want.
Michael P Collins
release --.. by Eric Ray...@Netaxs.com
> After reading Scott Forbes's suggestion that Klingon be added to the
> supported languages, I immediately realized that Volapuk support was
> the next logical step in the progression.
How about Kuskovian? Linear B? Minoan? Mohelmot? Gibson Code?
Interlingua? Irish? Truly Literate Programming... An intercal version
of WEB. Wow. The mind staggers. The mind reels. The mind runs away
screaming in terror.
mc...@andrew.cmu.edu, mcse...@panix.com
"This is the quote in my signature."
Eric Raymond
: 1.6? Did you just update it in the last few days? I downloaded whatever
: version was there the day you announced INTERCAL 0.10, but I thought it was
: 1.5. Maybe I'm misremembering. This reminds me, though, that I was unable
: to run Pilot; it compiled, but gave a bus error instantly when executed. (I
: was running it under SunOS 4.1 on a Sun 4.) I haven't taken it any farther
: than that, or tried to debug it. Is this a problem you're already aware of?
You're right, the latest version is 1.5.
Can you compile with -g and use a debugger to tell me where it dies? First
I've heard of this problem.
Jim Jewett
followups... go ahead and leave them in iff you're talking about Quechua
rather than Intercal.]
In article <355vdh$s...@netaxs.com>, Eric Raymond <e...@Netaxs.com> wrote:
>Keith F. Lynch (k...@access.digex.net) wrote:
>: What? Have you forgotten Lojban already?
>No. I thought about it. But lojban support would be entirely too sane and
>rational a feature for INTERCAL. The next logical step after Klingon was
>clearly support of a *dead* synthetic language.
I remember hearing (meaning that it was probably mentioned on sci.lang)
speculation that one of the ancient American languages (I _think_ it
was Quechua) was actually a synthetic language -- sort of an esperanto
for what eventually became Central America.
Does anyone else have a clue what I'm thinking about?
Some actual information?
And, for the Intercal folks, a digit list?
_________ Have a favorite group or mailing list? Describe it to
| grou...@pitt.edu
jJ | Take only memories. ji...@eecs.umich.edu
\__/ Leave not even footprints. jew...@pitt.edu
Eric Raymond
: How about Kuskovian? Linear B? Minoan? Mohelmot? Gibson Code?
: of WEB. Wow. The mind staggers. The mind reels. The mind runs away
: screaming in terror.
OK, you lost me on two of those. Explain Mohelmot and Kukovian? I presume
Gibson Code refers to the obsolete shorthand system.
Richard A. O'Keefe
>: What an unimpeachably brilliant idea! Don't just sit there, send me a
>: list of Klingon digit names. Don't forget the zero.
I haven't got my Tlingan dictionary handy, but I _do_ have a wee book
about ancient Egyptian.
1 ua
2 sen
3 chemet
4 aftu
5 tuau
6 sas
7 sefech
8 chemennu
9 pest
10 met
These have "numeral" forms, but they do also have hieroglyphs (believe it
or not, the hieroglpyh for 3 has an ejaculating penis in it). I'm not
sure what to do about zero.
su "lacking", is one possibility
an ua "not one", is another.
This is drawn from "Egyptian Language; Easy Lessons in Egyptian Hieroglyphics"
by Sir E. A. Wallis Budge, reprinted in 1983 by Dover, originally published
in 1910. It might be wise to consult something a few decades more recent,
or a few millenia older.
(:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-) (:-)
(For what it's worth, an Egyptian font _is_ available for PCs. I understand
that the glpyhs are drawn in half inch squares.)
--
The party that took Australia into Vietnam wants to smash the inner-city
yacht school and put a Grand Prix in its place. They don't change.
Richard A. O'Keefe
>: And it definitely should support Quenya and Sindarin too.
>Digit list! Digit list!
Unfortunately, the "Elvish" document compiled by Robert M. Schroeck
and posted in 1984 by Stewart Wiener does not list many digits.
0 --
1 er (Quenya), also means "alone"
2 --
3 nelde
4 --
5 --
6 --
7 otso (Quenya) odo (Sindarin)
8 --
9 --
10 --
If anyone has any more information about Elvish than was posted in 1984,
I'd like a copy too.
Dik T. Winter
> I remember hearing (meaning that it was probably mentioned on sci.lang)
> speculation that one of the ancient American languages (I _think_ it
> was Quechua) was actually a synthetic language -- sort of an esperanto
> for what eventually became Central America.
Certainly not Quechua. That is spoken in Southern America (Colombia,
Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia and some provinces of Argentina).
>
> And, for the Intercal folks, a digit list?
Alas, there is no word for zero. The remainder: huk, iskay, kimsa, tawa,
pichqa, soqta, qanchis, pusaq, isqon.
Eric, would it not be better to also support languages that lack a zero?
Otherwise it is not really universal.
And, you asked for Volapuk. From 0 to 9: nos, bal, tel, kil, fol, lul,
m"al, vel, j"ol, z"ul.
You could also implement the widespread language of Saami: nolla, okta,
guokte, golbma, njeallje, vihtta, guhtta, cieza, gavcci, ovcci.
Or, while we are at it, Greenlandic: nul, ataaseq, marluk, pingasut,
sisamat, tallimat, arfineq, arfineq marluk, arfineq pingasut,
qulingiluat.
Going to Greenlandic for the complete vocabulary would be a bit
ambitious and lead to program bloat. A Greenlandic word is at
least twice as long as the corresponding Danish word which is in
turn at least twice as long as the corresponding English word.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924098
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: d...@cwi.nl
Johnny Svensson
I propose instead that we adopt the international language Volapuk as the
standard international language for Intercal keywords. Almost no one speaks
it since roughly a century ago most people with any interest in artificial
languages realized that Esperanto was much easier too learn. However, books
can be found, with difficulty, that describe its grammar and vocabulary.
Thus, the blame^H^H^H^H^Hcredit for Intercal keywords could easily be shared
with several people who are long since dead.
Of all the followups to esr's original message about
internationalization, this one stands out as being head and shoulders
above the rest, IMHO.
Remember, one of the truly appealing features of Intercal is its small
size. Intercal should stay true to its goals of being unlike other
languages in every respect, and therefore _resist bloat_ and feature
only the necessary minimum of languages needed to be considered truly
international. It seems to me that the selection implemented by esr,
with the addition of Volapuk, fits the bill brilliantly.
J
Eric Raymond
: Eric, would it not be better to also support languages that lack a zero?
Unfortunaely, given the design of INTERCAL input, this is impossible. It
wants positional notation, which means each digit list *must* have a zero.
Two of the languages, now supported, Classical Nahuatl and Kwakiutl, don't
have a zero as such; the people who supplied those digits gave me words
meaning "nothing" or "void" as placeholders.
: Otherwise it is not really universal.
Who said universality was the goal? This is a cutting *parody* of
internationalization, not a "real" internationalization effort. :-)
: And, you asked for Volapuk. From 0 to 9: nos, bal, tel, kil, fol, lul,
: m"al, vel, j"ol, z"ul.
Excellent! Thanks!
: You could also implement the widespread language of Saami: nolla, okta,
: guokte, golbma, njeallje, vihtta, guhtta, cieza, gavcci, ovcci.
What is this, some dialect of Finnish or Estonian?
Hans Mulder
>Is it time yet to start holding standardization meetings? Can we convince
>ANSI and/or ISO of this pressing need? Are there any good sites for the
>meetings?
Under ISO rules, there is no pressing need for standardization.
For that, you need multiple incompatible implementations causing
portability problems.
If people keep using C-INTERCAL, we won't have portibility
problems. So we need a volunteer to write an incompatible INTERCAL
implementation, preferably in COBOL.
--
HansM ha...@win.tue.nl
Bug: The INTERCAL compiler refuses to compile the 104th line of any program.
Workaround: Omit that line.
Steven D. Majewski
>In article <351es0$h...@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>,
>Joe Armstrong <j...@erix.ericsson.se> wrote:
>> PLEASE EDIT <String> WITH <Script> WRITTEN-IN <Lang>
>
>> <Expr> = "any string"
>> <Script> = "a <Lang> script"
>> <Lang> = TECO | M4 | INTERCAL etc.
>
>Given the internationalization efforts, <Lang> must be restricted to
>similarly interesting languages. I would suggest at the very least
>that Autocoder, Forth-77, TECO, and ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL
>be supported.
Good idea, Peter, but I'm afraid that callouts or FFI's to even
*those* languages would make Intercal too usable.
But the mention of Forth suggests another idea:
Reimplement Intercal on a *truly demented* Virtual Machine
and add a directive for inline asm of virtual machine code.
Not only could we recycle some of the worst ideas from Comp.arch,
but we could finally use all of those ancient alt.folklore.computers
opcodes.
( I haven't seen a list for quite sometime - aren't there opcodes
for "Execute Programmer Immediately" and "Branch on Tuesdays" ,
and the like ? )
- Steve Majewski (804-982-0831) <sd...@Virginia.EDU>
- UVA Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics
Palmer Davis
>Linda K McIver (lin...@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au) wrote:
>:
>: nature of the INTERCAL community. :-)
>
>On the other hand, it's a *really* big futon.
Is this why the COME FROM statement was added?
--
Palmer Davis ___
<p...@ptd.org> \X/ Vivo simpligxus se oni povus legi la fontan kodon....
Mark Hughes
>Craig Dickson (c...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: And the PILOT standard was updated just a couple of years ago...
>: Horrifying, isn't it, how long these silly languages persist?
>Hah. You don't know the half of it. My second retrocompiler, after
>C-INTERCAL, was the reference implementation of IEEE pilot. The
>distribution, available for FTP at locke.ccil.org:pub/esr/pilot-1.6.tar.gz,
>includes a paper on just why and how much the IEEE standard sucks moldy
>maggot turds.
Hah! I used the old Atari 8-bit version. The IEEE version is vastly
superior. (the fact that I actually wrote code in the thing at one time may
explain a lot about my programming languages of choice...)
-Mark Hughes
GARY K BARNES
Scott Forbes <for...@ihlpf.ih.att.com> wrote:
->+-- c...@netcom.com (Craig Dickson) writes:
->|Eric Raymond writes:
->||As contemplated in the 0.5 release notes, INTERCAL has been internationalized.
->||Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit, Tagalog,
->||Georgian, and Kwakiutl.
->|
->|Arrgh!
->|
->|If it doesn't support Mayan, Saxon, Axolotl or pig-Latin, what good is it?
->
->If there is any one language INTERCAL should support, it is Klingon.
Klingon?
Hah!
Call that an obscure language?
What about Cymraeg? (Welsh)
Gaz
--
/\./\ g...@aber.ac.uk (Gary "Wolf" Barnes), Computer Officer,
( - - ) Computer Unit, University of Wales, Aberystwyth.
\ " / GCE e++ C++++$ ULUOS++++$ d-- w+++ v- L++ n---- p?+
~~~ W--- M--- Y+++ t--- 5--- rd+++ b+++ u--- h++ r++ y++
Craig Dickson
|ataaseq, marluk, pingasut,
|sisamat, tallimat, arfineq, arfineq marluk, arfineq pingasut,
|qulingiluat.
I tried reading this with ROT-13. It didn't help, so I tried uudecode.
That didn't work either. What encryption method did you use on this text?
The joke must be *really* obscene to be concealed so effectively. :-)
--
"90% of everything is crap" - T Sturgeon "111% of crap is everything" - L Wall
"Inscrutable people tend to drink inscrutable beer" - Elizabeth, a Guinness fan
Chris Richardson
<snip>
: How about Kuskovian? Linear B? Minoan? Mohelmot? Gibson Code?
<snip>
^^^^^^^^
I was going to suggest Egyptian hieroglyphics, but (as with Linear B) I think
we might run into the problem of representing them in 7-bit ASCII...
I can imagine it now: "( Squiggle, owl ) ( eye, wavy line, ankh ) ..."
Is there an ISO standard for either of these ?
Foop (with all due apologies to Mr Pratchett, who has the idea first)
--
Chris Richardson (Foop)
## C.Rich...@uk.ac.kcl.cc.bay ####### fo...@sg2.pcy.kcl.ac.uk (preferred) ##
## Ignore any lines above this one - we are having problems with our mailer ##
Mark Hughes
>Scott Forbes (for...@marconi.ih.att.com) wrote:
>
>What an unimpeachably brilliant idea! Don't just sit there, send me a
>list of Klingon digit names. Don't forget the zero.
(these are pronounced in really horrid ways, just drink a few bottles of Jack
Daniels and smoke a couple packs of Marlboros while you have a horrid cold,
and you'll be able to simulate a proper Klingon accent).
0 pagh 5 vagh
1 wa' 6 jav
2 cha' 7 Soch
3 wej 8 chorgh
4 loS 9 Hut
10 wa'maH (one ten)
11 wa'maH wa' (one ten and one), etc.
20 cha'maH (two tens)
30 wejmaH (three tens), etc.
100 wa'vatlh
200 cha'vatlh
1000 wa'SaD or wa'SanID
10000 wa'netlh
100000 wa'bIp
1E6 'uy'
From the Klingon Dictionary by Marc Okrand:
"Klingon originally had a ternary number system; that is, one based on three.
Counting proceeded as follows: 1, 2, 3; 3+1, 3+2, 3+3; 2x3+1, [...]; and then it
got complicated. In accordance with the more accepted practice, the Klingon
Empire sometime back adopted a decimal number system, one based on ten.
Though no one knows for sure, it is likely that this change was made more out
of concern for understanding the scientific data of other civilizations than out
of a spirit of cooperation."
It's a shame he doesn't provide the ternary system, so Intercal could have two
completely incompatible Klingon numbering systems.
-Mark Hughes
PHILLIP CURTIS
g...@aber.ac.uk (GARY K BARNES) burbled:
>
>Klingon?
>Hah!
>Call that an obscure language?
>What about Cymraeg? (Welsh)
>
Ooooh, flamebait. Bloody Sais.
Eric: Welsh digits, starting at zero:
dim, un, dau, tri, pedwar, pump, chwech, saith, wyth, naw.
But I reckon we should use Manx. I wonder if Siop y Pethe have a
dictionary..
Darin Johnson
added:
I personally prefer Solresol -- an international language invented by
a Frenchman in the 1700's which used the seven notes of the C major
scale (the white keys in the middle of the keyboard) and stress patterns.
(Probably sounds like Chinese). A page on this can be found in
Andrew Large's *The Artificial Language Movement* .
The possibilities of putting a debugger on CD-ROM ... and using
/dev/audio for more than just pranks on unsuspecting workstation
owners ... boggles my mind to the point that I can't explain further.
I think that the idea of using *some* dead, artificial language
is godlike and worthy of a Ph.D. thesis...whether or not Volapuk is
a good idea I can't evaluate properly.
(note, this is from a University professor)
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
Support your right to own gnus.
Matt Kennel
: A friend of mine, after I passed on some of these articles,
: added:
: I personally prefer Solresol -- an international language invented by
: a Frenchman in the 1700's which used the seven notes of the C major
: scale (the white keys in the middle of the keyboard) and stress patterns.
: (Probably sounds like Chinese). A page on this can be found in
: Andrew Large's *The Artificial Language Movement* .
: I think that the idea of using *some* dead, artificial language
: is godlike and worthy of a Ph.D. thesis...whether or not Volapuk is
: a good idea I can't evaluate properly.
I've always wondered about these artificial 'universal' human languages.
We already had one that worked OK. And it even comes with "tradition".
Latin.
Sure, I'm all for conducting UN business in Latin.
Nota bene: purgamentum init, exit purgamentum.
: Darin Johnson
What is 'object-oriented' in Latin?
--
-Matt Kennel m...@inls1.ucsd.edu
-Institute for Nonlinear Science, University of California, San Diego
-*** AD: Archive for nonlinear dynamics papers & programs: FTP to
-*** lyapunov.ucsd.edu, username "anonymous".
Palmer Davis
>: 0: pagh 1: wa' 2: cha' 3: wej 4: loS 5: vagh
>: 6: jav 7: Soch 8: chorgh 9: Hut
>
>There's a problem here. Klingon orthography is case-sensitive.
For our purposes, that's less of a problem -- the one case where
capitalization really matters other than to a purist is the difference
between q and Q, neither of which appear in any of the digits.
>: The traditional Klingon word order is adverb-object-verb(-subject);
>: arguments should appear BEFORE the corresponding keywords, unlike
>: standard INTERCAL. "(1912) DO (1001) NEXT", for example, translates
>: as "(1912) (1001) yItlha'".
>
>This is an even bigger problem. I'd have to support two YACC grammars,
>one for English and one for Klingon. Bletch.
A possible quick and dirty hack would be to use the adverbial "DaH"
("now" or "right away") in the syntactic slot occupied by DO, such
that "(1912) DO (1001) NEXT" becomes "(1912) DaH (1001) yItlha'".
Optionally append a "yI-" to most of the verbs, and the existing
grammar would more or less work, at the risk of offending strict
Klingon grammarians. Case could likewise be more or less safely
ignored.
Magnus Olsson
No, it's the language spoken by the Saami/Same/Lapp people of northern
Scandinavia, who have official status as the indigenous people of this
area. I think the Saami languages (there are at least two variants)
are related to Finnish and Estonian, but they're not close enough to
be called dialects of those languages.
Magnus Olsson (m...@df.lth.se) / yacc computer club, Lund, Sweden
Work: Innovativ Vision AB, Linkoping (magnus...@ivab.se)
Old adresses (may still work): mag...@thep.lu.se, the...@selund.bitnet
PGP key available via finger (to df.lth.se) or on request.
D. Dale Gulledge
In article <351es0$h...@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>,
Joe Armstrong <j...@erix.ericsson.se> wrote:
> PLEASE EDIT <String> WITH <Script> WRITTEN-IN <Lang>
> <Expr> = "any string"
> <Script> = "a <Lang> script"
> <Lang> = TECO | M4 | INTERCAL etc.
Given the internationalization efforts, <Lang> must be restricted to
similarly interesting languages. I would suggest at the very least
that Autocoder, Forth-77, TECO, and ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL
be supported.
APL. There are few things as indecipherable as string handling code in APL.
Emacs Byte Code might also be a good option. Lots of raw power there.
- Dale
--
My employer's opinions are published | Lernu paroli Esperanton!
elsewhere. These opinions are strictly |
my own. |
--
d...@cci.com, D. Dale Gulledge, Software Engineer, Northern Telecom,
Directory & Operator Services, 97 Humboldt St., Rochester, NY 14609
Eric Raymond
: For Proto-Indoeuropean:
: <digits omitted>
: Actually, to be technically correct, you need to prefix * to each word.
Done and done. These will be in 0.11.
Palmer Davis
>list of Klingon digit names. Don't forget the zero.
Jen. The apostrophe represents a glottal stop, the capital S represents
a "sh" sound, and the capital H represents a sound rather like the "ch"
in "Bach" (or like clearing your throat).
0: pagh
1: wa'
2: cha'
3: wej
4: loS
5: vagh
6: jav
7: Soch
8: chorgh
9: Hut
Klingon also features an Esperanto-like system of affixes useful in
translating keywords, should there be a demand for a Klingon dialect
of INTERCAL (or, more likely, TriINTERCAL -- the Klingons seem to like
to have three of everything). "PLEASE", for example, is a concept
entirely foreign to Klingon culture, but the suffix "-neS", used as
an honorific by speakers of lower rank, could serve such a function.
Likewise, there isn't a "DO" verb, but imperative verbs need to be
prefixed with "yI-".
Here, then, is a preliminary list of keywords for a proposed Klingon
TriINTERCAL dialect ("INTERCAL" in Klingon loosely translates as "batlh
jorlI' Heghta' Hol"):
DO: yI- (not optional) (yIDe' for angle-worm statements)
NOT/N'T: -Qo'
PLEASE: -neS (always comes after -Qo' if both suffixes are used)
NEXT: tlha'
FORGET: qawHa'
RESUME: vangqa'
STASH: So'
RETRIEVE: tu'
IGNORE: jIv
REMEMBER: qaw
ABSTAIN/ABSTAIN FROM: mev (use "-taH" to form gerunds)
REINSTATE: qawqa'
GIVE UP: HoH'egh
WRITE IN: ghItlh
READ OUT: laD
COME FROM: ghoS
SUB: -DIch
For example, "PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP" translates as "yIHoH'eghQo'neS".
The traditional Klingon word order is adverb-object-verb(-subject);
arguments should appear BEFORE the corresponding keywords, unlike
standard INTERCAL. "(1912) DO (1001) NEXT", for example, translates
as "(1912) (1001) yItlha'". (The use of "PLEASE", "DO", or a line
number to indicate the beginning of a statement is obviated by the
fact that a verb beginning with "yI-" always *ends* a statement.)
Likewise, the angle-worm operator ought to be replaced with a worm-
right angle operator, so that "DO .1 <- #12" becomes "#12 -> .1 yIDe'".
Or such an operator could simply be added to regular INTERCAL, with
both available in both dialects. "<->", anyone?
I'll try to hack together an implementation one of these years.
Michael Hardy
> speculation that one of the ancient American languages (I _think_ it
> was Quechua) was actually a synthetic language -- sort of an esperanto
> for what eventually became Central America.
I know nothing of the origin of Quechua, but since when in Peru
in Central America?
Mike Hardy
Bruce Baugh
> > <Lang> = TECO | M4 | INTERCAL etc.
>APL. There are few things as indecipherable as string handling code in APL.
>Emacs Byte Code might also be a good option. Lots of raw power there.
Now that I think of it, Neon would be a good language to support. This came
out for the Macintosh around 1986, and was basically Forth with Smalltalk
extensions. No, I'm not making that up. It was delightful - its supplied
example programs wouldn't compile, since they had errors, and the particular
error messages generated weren't listed in the documentation.
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|bru...@teleport.com Bruce Baugh, thoroughly unaffiliated with Teleport|
| "An' besides you IS a rabbit." "Not a 'nothing-BUT-a-rabbit', tho'." |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Eric Raymond
: 0: pagh 1: wa' 2: cha' 3: wej 4: loS 5: vagh
: 6: jav 7: Soch 8: chorgh 9: Hut
There's a problem here. Klingon orthography is case-sensitive. But the
examples in the INTERCAL-72 manual clearly show the input digit names in
ALL CAPS. This means that we either (a) have to treat English as a special
case for which digits are accepted in either case, or (b) fold the Klingon
names into upper case, violating the accepted orthography. Yuck.
: The traditional Klingon word order is adverb-object-verb(-subject);
: arguments should appear BEFORE the corresponding keywords, unlike
: standard INTERCAL. "(1912) DO (1001) NEXT", for example, translates
: as "(1912) (1001) yItlha'".
This is an even bigger problem. I'd have to support two YACC grammars,
one for English and one for Klingon. Bletch.
Klingon is beginning to seem like a bad idea. Let's stick to SVO languages,
people. I think Volapuk is SVO; it's looking better all the time.
John West
>Digit list! Digit list!
OK. The languages don't have 0 (unless that interesting manuscript Patrick
Wynne has been teasing us with mentions it), but there is something like
'(the) void', which might do. I'll have to look that one up.
'c' and 'k' are interchangable. The first 'a' in 'rhasad' should have
a length marker on it.
Quenya Sindarin
1 mine min
2 atta ad
3 nelde neled
4 canta canad
5 lempe leben
6 enqe eneg
7 otso odo
8 tolto toloth
9 nerte neder
10 cainen caer
11 minqe minib
12 rasta rhasad
What? Intercal doesn't support duodecimal?
John West
S M Ryan
ne-so
oynos
dewes
treyes
kwetor
penkwe
sekhs
septom
okto
newon
Actually, to be technically correct, you need to prefix * to each word.
Let's see what you can do with (S)OV, possibly ergative. (In ergative
languages you state the objects and a relation among them, and let the
hearer decide how to do it--dataflow.)
There's also Nostratic and Proto-World (1=dik).
--
What is the cardinality of | smr...@netcom.com PO Box 1563
the set of the cardinals? | Cupertino, California
... ond lof-gearnost. | (xxx)xxx-xxxx 95015
R.B Franklin
: I don't know the Klingon words for "zero" through "nine", but I'm sure
: somebody over there in rec.arts.startrek.misc can rattle them off.
: Any help, Trek experts?
thlIngan mI'mey bIH mu'meyvam'e':
0 pagh 5 vagh
1 wa' 6 jav
2 cha' 7 Soch
3 wej 8 chorgh
4 loS 9 Hut
qaQaHlaHpu' 'e' vItul.
reH taHjaj tlhInganpu'!
yoDtargh
rand...@netcom.com
Jonathan Aiello
: I don't know the Klingon words for "zero" through "nine", but I'm sure
: somebody over there in rec.arts.startrek.misc can rattle them off.
: Any help, Trek experts?
According to the Klingon Dictionary by Marc Okrand:
0 pagh
1 wa'
2 cha'
3 wej
4 loS
5 vagh
6 jav
7 Soch
8 chorgh
9 Hut
10 wa'maH
--
Jonathan Aiello
jmai...@ucdavis.edu
1111 J St. #45 Davis, CA 95616 USA
(916) 758-0960
Rhonda: "DS" (B+O)t+W+R G 3.3 X W- C+++ I T+ A+ E H++ S++ V+ F P+ B PA
I think I am therefore I am, I think.
Richard A. O'Keefe
I wish he'd do an ATLAS implementation along the same lines. I've got
the 1984 edition of the standard, ISBN 471-82745-2, and it's several
inches thick. An example from page 12-31:
000250 DO, STIM-RATE 1MHZ ERRLMT +-0.1 MHZ,
SENSE-DELAY 100NSEC ERRLMT +-5NSEC $
FOR, 'I' = 1 THRU 200, THEN $
STIMULATE, 'STIM'('I'), ON 'PCB-IN' $
PROVE, (VALUE) REF 'RESP'('I'), ON 'PCB-OUT' $
ND, FOR $
END, DO $
Statement numbers are 6 digits. You can replace the first 4 by blanks if
they're the same as the last explicit set. You can replace the last
2 by blanks if they're 1 more than the last explicit set. $ is end
of statement. The language has so many keywords that you have to quote
'x' the things that _aren't_ keywords...
--
Science is all about asking the right questions. | o...@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au
I'm afraid you just asked one of the wrong ones. | (quote from Playfair)
Magnus Olsson
>For Proto-Indoeuropean:
> ne-so
Did the Proto-Indoeuropeans really have the concept of zero? Somebody
raised the objection that we shouldn't use languages that don't have a
word for zero. Using some other word like "void" or "nothing" is a bit
problematic, if not for philological then for semantic reasons. The
absence of a word for zero can mean that the culture in question not
only didn't have a positional system (which of course is a very recent
innovation, and there are positional systes without zeros, like the
Babylonian sexagesimal one), but it might even mean that the culturre
didn't recognize the concept of "zero as a number". The most famous
example is of course the ancient Greeks, who didn't even regard one as
a number. (There was of course a Greek word (heis) for "one", and a
digit one (actually the letter alpha) but one wasn't regarded as a
number, but as Unity.
Of course, inconsistency is what INTERCAL thrives on... :-)
>Actually, to be technically correct, you need to prefix * to each word.
But the '*'isn't a part of the word itself, it's just the notation
for a conjectured form, a word for which no written evidence exists.
but has only been conjectured from other sources (in the case of PIE
from later languages believed to be descended from it).
>What is the cardinality of | smr...@netcom.com PO Box 1563
>the set of the cardinals? | Cupertino, California
> ... ond lof-gearnost. | (xxx)xxx-xxxx 95015
... Is the set of all sets that aren't members of themselves a member of
itself? :-)
ScholR LEA
>Xref: news.delphi.com alt.lang.intercal:265 comp.lang.misc:13395
alt.folklore.
>computers:61434
>
>In article <354i42$10...@rs18.hrz.th-darmstadt.de>,
mi...@rbg.informatik.th-dar
>mstadt.de (Walter Misar) writes:
>> In article <Cw10A...@nntpa.cb.att.com>, for...@marconi.ih.att.com
(Scott F
>orbes) writes:
>>> c...@netcom.com (Craig Dickson) writes:
>>>>Eric Raymond writes:
>>>>> Input languages now supported include Nahuatl, Basque, Sanskrit,
Tagalog,
>>>>
>>>> If it doesn't support Mayan, Saxon, Axolotl or pig-Latin, what good is
it?
>>>
>>
>>
>
>And don't forget Assyrian, Aramaic, ancient Egyptian (Old AND New kingdoms,
> please) and, of course, Linear-B.
Kzinti. No doubt about it, the Kzin script (mostly variations on the comma)
*must* be supported by INTERCAL.
Trouble rather the|Schol-R-LEA;2 ____ |'There should be a law
tiger in his lair |Pudgy Bureaucrat \bi/ |against quoting Lewis Carroll
than the scholar |PLC \/ |and W.S. Gilbert in a
among his books |Account in flux |language reference.'-Plauger
Ralf Brown
}In article <351es0$h...@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>,
}Joe Armstrong <j...@erix.ericsson.se> wrote:
}> PLEASE EDIT <String> WITH <Script> WRITTEN-IN <Lang>
}
}> <Expr> = "any string"
}> <Script> = "a <Lang> script"
}
}similarly interesting languages. I would suggest at the very least
}that Autocoder, Forth-77, TECO, and ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL
}be supported.
Hey, don't forget 'sed'! Next closest thing to line noise after TECO :-)
(Call me perverse, but I once wrote a pair of sed scripts to convert back
and forth between MS Word-generated RTF and Borland Sprint documents....
About 250 lines for RTF->Sprint and 175 lines for Sprint->RTF.)
--
Internet: RA...@CS.CMU.EDU | The University would disclaim this if it knew...
FIDO: Ralf Brown 1:129/26.1 | "Determine that the thing can and shall be done,
BIT: RALF%CS.CMU.EDU@MITVMA | and then we shall find the way." Abraham Lincoln
Axel Wienberg
In article <35920k$r...@netaxs.com> e...@Netaxs.com (Eric Raymond) writes:
There's a problem here. Klingon orthography is case-sensitive. But the
examples in the INTERCAL-72 manual clearly show the input digit names in
ALL CAPS. This means that we either (a) have to treat English as a special
case for which digits are accepted in either case, or (b) fold the Klingon
names into upper case, violating the accepted orthography. Yuck.
Why not simply use backslash-letter for capitals? 4 = LO\S, 9 = \HUT
Exactly what happens under unix if you have a capital-only terminal.
This tradition is surely as old as Intercal (and used about as much
these days).
: [...]
This is an even bigger problem. I'd have to support two YACC grammars,
one for English and one for Klingon. Bletch.
Klingon is beginning to seem like a bad idea. [...]
Every reasonable programming language has different vendors,
incompatible implementations and various dialects. People expect this
of a language. Besides, if there's only one implementation, creating
a standard will be no fun at all (because there is a de facto standard
already).
If we want to attract programmers, we have to give them the feeling
that there is competition and progress in intercal. Definitely the
best way to reach this goal is: provide Klingon Tri-Intercal, together
with a few buggy conversion tools! Or someone write VM-Intercal (based
on a super fast virtual machine).
Let's say it all together:
Intercal - the language of the future!
--
--axe (2wi...@rzdspc2.informatik.uni-hamburg.de)
"If I have not seen as far as others, then that's | Axel Wienberg
because giants were standing on my shoulders" | Hinzeweg 9
Hal Abelson | 21075 Hamburg
Doug Landauer
> For that, you need multiple incompatible implementations causing
> portability problems.
Weird. You mean they didn't realize the possibility of a *single*
implementation being incompatible with itself? What a severe lack
of imagination!
--
Doug Landauer -- land...@eng.sun.com _
Sun Microsystems, Inc. -- SMI/SunSoft/DevPro/ADE La no ka 'oi.
D. Dale Gulledge
Keith F. Lynch (k...@access.digex.net) wrote:
: What? Have you forgotten Lojban already?
No. I thought about it. But lojban support would be entirely too sane and
rational a feature for INTERCAL. The next logical step after Klingon was
clearly support of a *dead* synthetic language.
Solresol, Langue Bleu and Interlingua were all appealing. But, to those
few of us who know of it, the fusty 19th-century Germanic ponderosity of
Volapuk makes it *obviously* the Right Thing.
(History: Volapuk was a late-19th-century invention that was sort of
generalized-Teutonic-stripped-to-the-running-gears in the same way that
Esperanto is generalized-Latinate-stripped-to-the-running-gears. When
Dr. Zamenhof floated Esperanto, essentially the entire Volapuk community
migrated to it en masse, leaving Volapuk stranded like a dead whale on
the beach of history.)
How poetic. I know Esperanto and you will note that at no time did I advocate
INTERCAL supporting Esperanto. Whatever each of you may think of Esperanto
and its future, there are people out here who actually speak it. There is a
growing body of Esperanto literature. As I said, the INTERCAL standard would
then have to contend with an actual body of living speakers who might disagree
with us over what the words mean. I believe that there are a few Volapuk
speakers around somewhere, but their numbers are small enough that we could
easily reach a concensus with them if necessary, assuming we can find them.
Hans Mulder
>You could also implement the widespread language of Saami: nolla, okta,
>guokte, golbma, njeallje, vihtta, guhtta, cieza, gavcci, ovcci.
>Or, while we are at it, Greenlandic: nul, ataaseq, marluk, pingasut,
>sisamat, tallimat, arfineq, arfineq marluk, arfineq pingasut,
>qulingiluat.
This looks like Greenlandic doesn't have words for "seven" and "eight"
and uses "six one" and "six two" instead. We can't have that in INTERCAL,
because INTERCAL prints number by spelling out the digits. If it prints
arfineq marluk arfineq pingasut
you wouldn't know whether that meant 6162 or 618 or 762 or 78.
INTERCAL is meant to be slightly odd, not completely unusable.
--
HansM ha...@win.tue.nl
Several recent languages have adopted an Intercal-like,
asychronous computed COME-FROM concept. Only they refer to
it with funny terms like "exception handling'.
Eric Raymond
: Kzinti. No doubt about it, the Kzin script (mostly variations on the comma)
: *must* be supported by INTERCAL.
If you know of a canonical description of Kzin orthography, I'd *love* to
see it.
Me, I think the Kzinti writing looks I've seen in illos looks more like TECO
code transcribed into Arabic...
Johnny Svensson
Aaaaaaaargh! Bloat! Bloat!
To support only a *very* limited number of languages, each chosen
seemingly at random, would be much more in the spirit of a language
with only two operators. Please reconsider.
J
Andrew Rogers
>Richard A. O'Keefe (o...@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au) wrote:
>: I wish he'd do an ATLAS implementation along the same lines. I've got
>: the 1984 edition of the standard, ISBN 471-82745-2, and it's several
>: inches thick. An example from page 12-31:
[ATLAS example mercifully deleted]
>This looks really, really nasty. What is it, some kind of language for
>instrumentation control.
That's exactly what it is. I worked on a similar language (two of them,
actually) for programming GenRad 2270 and 2750 circuit board testers.
> What, exactly, makes it interesting?
I presume sheer hairiness; I used to describe the syntax of the GenRad
languages as "a cross between BASIC and line noise". I designed and
implemented a major round of control flow and library enhancements to the
2270 language, ostensibly for marketing purposes but really so that I
could write a calendar program in it.
Andrew
PS: Any other GenRad alumni out there? Or maybe I should ask if there are
still any GenRad employees...
Keith Thompson @pulsar
0 pagh
1 wa'
2 cha'
3 wej
4 loS
5 vagh
6 jav
7 Soch
8 chorgh
9 Hut
The names are case-sensitive.
Dochvetlh vISoplaHbe'
nuqDaq yuch Dabol
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) k...@alsys.com
TeleSoft^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Alsys, Inc.
10251 Vista Sorrento Parkway, Suite 300, San Diego, CA, USA, 92121-2718
/user/kst/.signature: I/O error (core dumped)
ScholR LEA
>X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
>Xref: news.delphi.com alt.lang.intercal:315 comp.lang.misc:13484
alt.folklore.
>computers:61717
>
>ScholR LEA (sch...@delphi.com) wrote:
>: Kzinti. No doubt about it, the Kzin script (mostly variations on the
comma)
>: *must* be supported by INTERCAL.
>
>If you know of a canonical description of Kzin orthography, I'd *love* to
>see it.
Warriors'. The only other reference I recall was in _Ringworld_, but it
didn't describe their form.
ScholR LEA
>> > <Lang> = TECO | M4 | INTERCAL etc.
>out for the Macintosh around 1986, and was basically Forth with Smalltalk
>extensions. No, I'm not making that up. It was delightful - its supplied
>example programs wouldn't compile, since they had errors, and the
>particular
>error messages generated weren't listed in the documentation.
The author later went on the found the Whitewater Group, providing Actor
for Windows and an early version of the Borland C++ resource manager. Make
of this what you will.
Trouble rather the|Schol-R-LEA;2 ____ |"Frank, I'll give you
tiger in his lair |Pudgy Bureaucrat \bi/ | three seconds to stop
than the scholar |PLC \/ | stop licking my face!"
among his books |Account in flux |"Count slow..."
Lennart Benschop
Steven D. Majewski <sd...@elvis.med.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>But the mention of Forth suggests another idea:
> Reimplement Intercal on a *truly demented* Virtual Machine
> and add a directive for inline asm of virtual machine code.
>
>
>Not only could we recycle some of the worst ideas from Comp.arch,
>but we could finally use all of those ancient alt.folklore.computers
>opcodes.
Please don't use a Von-Neumann like architecture then. Even if such
architecture has demented paged/segmented addresses, different modes, opcode
syntax errors, asymmetric and partially overlapping register sets (most of
which is present in the Intel 80x86 series anyway), it's still comparatively
easy to follow the execution.
I think a dataflow architecture is more appropriate. Imagine a large array
of processors and data cells. Each processor has an opcode, two source
addresses and a destination address stored in it. If all its (zero, one or
two) source cells contain valid data, the processor reads the data from the
cells and stores the result into the destination cell. The data in the
source cells are invalidated and the destination cell now contains valid
data. All processors work in parallel and are only constrained by the
availability of their source operands. One of the opcodes is to re-validate
the destination cell, so that the same cell may be read more than once
before it is rewritten. An alternative of this opcode is that some
operations may read an operand regardless of the validity of the data in the
cell. Another opcode might validate the data in two addresses, so that more
than one preocessor can be reactivated due to the same event. (the last
opcode has two destination addresses but one source address; it is needed
for some synchronisation purposes).
One important aspect of the Von Neumann architecture should IMHO be
maintained in the INTERCAL virtual machine. This is the ability of a program
to modify its own instructions. Make each memory cell an active processor,
which performs whatever operation is last written to it. The contents of the
cell are the opcode, the two source addresses and the destination address
of the processor.
Now it becomes even more interesting if the instruction set is restricted in
such a way that you actuially need self-modifying code to perform a
nontrivial task. Like some old Von-Neumann machines that had no index
registers and that needed to modify the address part of an instruction to
access an array. Of course you still need to be able to do interesting
parallel algorithms.
The operations of the INTERCAL machine are not simply MOV, ADD SUB etc, but
rather ILV (interleave), SEL (selection) and CRN (convert to roman
numerals).
Another useful application of such a dataflow architecture would be a new
class of corewar. One could imagine that every cell has an owner field,
which is not directly accessible by the program. If a cell is written, its
owner field is changed to the owner field of the cell that performed the
write. At the start of the match the programs of all contendants are entered
and the owner fields of their cells are that of the contendant. The remaning
cells are NOP instructions with an owner field of zero. The objective, of
course, is to eradicate the cells owned by other contenders.
--
Lennart Benschop --- len...@stack.urc.tue.nl
"Real programmers do it in hacks."
52 65 61 6C 20 70 72 6F 67 72 61 6D 6D 65 72 73 20 64 6F 20 69 74 20
69 6E 20 68 61 63 6B 73 2E Forth/C/6809/Linux/ZX-Spectrum/Z80/80x86
Darin Johnson
> Eric: Welsh digits, starting at zero:
> dim, un, dau, tri, pedwar, pump, chwech, saith, wyth, naw.
If we do this, Intercal should become multimedia and be
forced to pronounce it! (and then the users will complain
that what it says isn't whatis being printed)
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
"Particle Man, Particle Man, doing the things a particle can"
Peter da Silva
Steven D. Majewski <sd...@elvis.med.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
> Reimplement Intercal on a *truly demented* Virtual Machine
> and add a directive for inline asm of virtual machine code.
> Not only could we recycle some of the worst ideas from Comp.arch,
> but we could finally use all of those ancient alt.folklore.computers
> opcodes.
Branch Random? Punch Lace Card? Skip and Crumple Tape? Halt and Catch
on Fire? That would be a nice addition, using the:
PLEASE ASSEMBLE
EXOP immed
BR
1f: HCF
THANK YOU
construct.
--
Peter da Silva `-_-'
Network Management Technology Incorporated 'U`
1601 Industrial Blvd. Sugar Land, TX 77478 USA
+1 713 274 5180 "Hast Du heute schon Deinen Wolf umarmt?"
Eric Raymond
: the 1984 edition of the standard, ISBN 471-82745-2, and it's several
: inches thick. An example from page 12-31:
: 000250 DO, STIM-RATE 1MHZ ERRLMT +-0.1 MHZ,
: SENSE-DELAY 100NSEC ERRLMT +-5NSEC $
: FOR, 'I' = 1 THRU 200, THEN $
: STIMULATE, 'STIM'('I'), ON 'PCB-IN' $
: PROVE, (VALUE) REF 'RESP'('I'), ON 'PCB-OUT' $
: ND, FOR $
: END, DO $
This looks really, really nasty. What is it, some kind of language for
instrumentation control. What, if anything, makes it interesting?
Bruce Baugh
: >Now that I think of it, Neon would be a good language to support. This came
: >out for the Macintosh around 1986, and was basically Forth with Smalltalk
: >extensions. No, I'm not making that up. It was delightful - its supplied
: The author later went on the found the Whitewater Group, providing Actor
: for Windows and an early version of the Borland C++ resource manager. Make
: of this what you will.
I'm the person quoted with >s above. And I'm choking with laughter. REALLY?
Wow. That's wonderful. I've worked with the original Whitewater resource
editor for Turbo Pascal for Windows, and thought it a peculiar beastie.
(Many of these pecularities went away in a later release, by the way.)
Hard to keep a strange man down, I guess.
Jim M. Pierce
[] Klingon?
[] Hah!
[] Call that an obscure language?
[] What about Cymraeg? (Welsh)
But there are humans still speaking Welsh. Leastwise, I think they
are still over there in Wales.
Klingons are not human, so ignore that language... :-)
--
Jim Pierce B.Sc. Disclaimer:Standard.
'How can sending a billionare $15.00 per year help the economy ?'
Keith Thompson @pulsar
> Or, while we are at it, Greenlandic: nul, ataaseq, marluk, pingasut,
> sisamat, tallimat, arfineq, arfineq marluk, arfineq pingasut,
> qulingiluat.
Interesting, but it has the problem of being ambiguous; does "arfineq
pingasut" mean "six three" or "eight"?
I suppose you could use some special syntax like "arfineq-pingasut",
or preferably something more obscure.
Incidentally, Greenlandic seems unusual in that the names for seven
and eight are compounded from the names for smaller numbers, but not
additively: seven is "six two" and eight is "six three".
I presume they borrowed "nul" from the Europeans.
It's a pity we can't use Nambiquara. According to the 1993 Guinness
Book of World Records,
The Nambiquara of northwest Matto Grosso of Brazil lack any
system of numbers. They do, however, have a verb that means
"they are alike".
Darin Johnson
you can get info on Lojban from:
http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/
Of course, I think Volapuk or Solresol would be better. (and if
you have to have sound support for Solresol, it's already there
for Welsh, excepting the spit ejector of course)
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
- Grad school - just say no.
David Librik
>In <Cw57y...@cwi.nl> d...@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter) writes:
>> Or, while we are at it, Greenlandic: nul, ataaseq, marluk, pingasut,
>> sisamat, tallimat, arfineq, arfineq marluk, arfineq pingasut,
>> qulingiluat.
>Interesting, but it has the problem of being ambiguous; does "arfineq
>pingasut" mean "six three" or "eight"?
>I suppose you could use some special syntax like "arfineq-pingasut",
>or preferably something more obscure.
>Incidentally, Greenlandic seems unusual in that the names for seven
>and eight are compounded from the names for smaller numbers, but not
>additively: seven is "six two" and eight is "six three".
That's because the numbers in Greenlandic have physical referents; it's
a quinary system. Goes like this:
ataaseq one
marluk two
pingasut three
sisamat four
tallimat five stem _taleq_ 'arm', lit. "the whole hand"
arfineq six stem _arfaq_ 'the outer edge of the hand'
meaning "on the other hand"
arfineq marluk seven lit. "two on the other hand"
arfineq pingasut eight "three on the other hand"
(arfineq sisamat) (nine) (not used anymore)
qulingiluat nine from _qulit_ 'ten' lit. "one less than ten"
qulit ten stem _qule_ 'the topmost' "all the fingers"
Above ten, Danish words are often used, but the Greenlandic series continues:
arqaneq / isigkaneq eleven stem _arqane_ 'on their lower part', or
_isigkane_ 'on the toes'
arqaneq marluk / twelve lit. "two on the lower part / toes", etc.
isigkaneq marluk
arqaneq pingasut / thirteen
isigkaneq pingasut
arqaneq sisamat / fourteen
isigkaneq sisamat
arqaneq tallimat fifteen
isigkaneq tallimat
arfersaneq sixteen lit. "on the other foot"
arfersaneq marluk seventeen
arfersaneq pingasut eighteen
arfersaneq sisamat nineteen
arfersaneq tallimat twenty
OR inuk naallugo twenty lit. "a whole man"
In the olden days they used to count above this with 'men': _inuit pingasut_
'three men, 60'. Also, you could get the tens above 20 like this:
pingasunik qulillit 30
sisamanik qulillit 40
tallimanik qulillit 50
... arfineq marlungnik qulillit 70
But nobody does that anymore.
There's probably typos in the above words, and anyway if you wanted to have
your computer count like this, you'd have to give it hands and feet.
- David Librik
lib...@cs.Berkeley.edu