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Message from discussion Getting Lisp to do PHP
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drewc  
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 More options Apr 5 2005, 4:03 pm
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: drewc <dr...@rift.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:03:22 GMT
Local: Tues, Apr 5 2005 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: Getting Lisp to do PHP

eMics wrote:
> I have to develop a PHP web application to be used by a client of mine.
[...]
> The problem here is that the source code
> must be readable PHP code to be maintained by someone else other than
> me. Using Lisp all the way down is out of the question.

Add another tier. PHP is mainly for front ends (and does an "ok" job at
it) , so you do the hard work in Lisp and export a REST or XML-RPC API
which is used by the php front end. You get the lucrative maintainance
contract on the back-end too :).

Besides that, you have three choices :

1) Code in PHP. horrible thought i admit, but if you need the money it's
not much worse than selling your blood.

2) Educate the client. I've done as Kenny Tilton suggests and quote
(vastly) different prices for the projects. Also, i've written two
different proposals.

In the PHP/ASP/Whatever version, I lay out the shortcomings of the
langauge and how the development process will be stuctured to work
around them. Assuming you still want the contract, this still has to be
a good proposal, but it's not hard to do this right...

In the Lisp one i blather on about the virtues of Lisp from the clients
point of view. This is a something from a recent proposal (re-write of
an asp/mssql app and yes, we got the contract) :

--------
Where the previous application was written in a proprietary “Language Of
The Month”, and left as a binary compiled for a single system, /The
System/ will be designed primarily with longevity and ease of
maintanance/updates in mind. The Lisp langauge has been in popular use
for almost 50 years, and Common Lisp in particular is an ANSI standard....

....rather than use a language that is owned by a corporation and
subject to the whims of the marketing and support departments, it is
better to maintain an open platform which has a standard and 50 years of
momentum behind it....

...Just as an aside, the "first web application" was written in Common
Lisp. The author, Paul Graham, has an excellent write-up of the
advantages using this partcular language brought to the table.(See
“Beating The Averages” http://paulgraham.com/avg.html).
---------

I also offer a 10 year maintanance contract under "wonderful" terms for
the lisp code, vs. 1 year with the "Language of the Month". I'm
confident that my code, delivered using SBCL 0.8.21, will run with
minimal changes in 10 years (on SBCL 0.9.1873054 :) ). I'm not so
confident about PHP, having gone through the php3->php4 transition.

The main advantage that i stress is that i'll be able to deliver better
code. My clients are not programmers, and shouldn't care which language
i use... what they should care about is how easy it is to
create/change/grow/fix their system. Which brings me to the last option...

3) Fire the client. You want to work in Lisp, they want PHP ... does one
go work at McDonalds when aiming to be a chef?! You'll have much more
time to search for lisp work and learn more lisp if you are not busy
writing php :)

All that being said, early on in my lisping i wrote some code to
generate php. It was fun, and i learned a lot about macros, but i could
never deliver the generated code to a php developer and expect them to
understand it.

drewc

--
Drew Crampsie
drewc at tech dot coop
"Never mind the bollocks -- here's the sexp's tools."
        -- Karl A. Krueger on comp.lang.lisp


 
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