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From: findler_lam...@yahoo.com (Robert Hanlin)
Date: 30 Sep 2002 07:38:26 -0700
Local: Mon, Sep 30 2002 10:38 am
Subject: Re: A social problem of lisp (Was: Re: The toxicity of trolls)
"Frank A. Adrian" <fadr...@ancar.org> wrote:
> I haven't seen this. I would not be so arrogant to think that I couldI would. It takes an understanding of reasonably rational people to
> understand Western philosophy without also understanding historical
see why many things happen. You certainly can't learn much from
"history," unless you prepare to be a deep-in-the-mud scholar, because
quiet details are exceedingly hard to capture. So you need some
generalization to rely on, and that's the abstraction of human
motivations. As well as a feeling of where it doesn't have to be
If that makes me arrogant, at least history tells us that people have
> Why do you think you can understand the "deeper philosophy ofBecause there are no doubt a lot of boneheaded mistakes behind its
> Lisp" without understanding some of the historical features behind its
development, and it's occasionally dangerous to put too much stock in
some detail that is actually a bit silly.
> Well, we try to keep the riff-raff out, but folks like you keep butting backYou are aware that you're threatening someone who is not easily
killfileable, right? I know you have a need to be gratuitous, because
even I am disturbed at what I wrote. But put the snake back in your
> > - some smart people are emotionally sensitive, but that is no reasonNo, I don't think you did.
> > to lose their thoughts
> I haven't noticed any thoughts being lost.
> your desire to be relevant to newbies and oher denizensYou mean like Python is being increasingly useful to the exclusion of
> of the unwashed masses.
lisp, simply because it supports more mainstream standards? Or will
you use the counterargument that lisp does not need to attach itself
like to every new development, as if there were a central lisp entity
that could do so?
> Yeah, most of us around here read Backus' paper when it was published as aa) some of us weren't alive then, I wasn't
> Turing Award lecture in the days before CACM became dumbed down by
b) sophistication in domain-specific knowledge often trades off with
CS sophistication -- at least when it's not embodied in programming
c) don't cry for the lisp machine or CACM, Virginia, because you don't
fully accept why the industry killed them. If you're going to be
cold-bloodded, imagine how industry types (like me) are the same way.
> So you're having a little public snit because your expectations weren't met.If we agree not to care about each other's snits, will that even
> Tell me why I should care?
> Form your thoughts into something useful first, then figure out if yourI think not. Why don't you write a program all at once, and then test
> little snit was worth having.
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