Algebra Rizing
Kenneth Tilton
I like -3x > 15 because then it offers two hints, one about dividing on
both sides and one about flipping the inequality.
That is the qooxdoo JS library driven by a Lisp server app running
AllegroServe, all with Cells Inside(tm), running on an AWS 64-bit instance.
Don't mind the whacky color scheme, that is just leftover debuggery to
help me sort out the qooxdoo layout manager. It's pretty powerful hence
sometimes surprising.
Bit of a bummer: that is still running on a 64-bit AWS instance because
the app hangs somewhere installed on a 32-bitter. Hmmm, I have VM
Workstation....awesome, I will be able to debug using the ACL IDE.
kt
--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
"The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
Macworld
kodifik
> help me sort out the qooxdoo layout manager. It's pretty powerful hence
> sometimes surprising.
FYI
It does not seem to work well with a spanish keyboard.
> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
> Macworld
You seem to be also stuckonproprietarysoftware
Richard Cornford
> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>
> http://teamalgebra.com/
OK, what is the point of positing to a javascript group a link to a
web page that produces a javascript error before it even finishes
loading (that being a total failure by any javascript standard)? That
error being:-
Line: 5180
Char: 9
Error: Image modification not possible because elements could not be
replaced at runtime anymore!
Code: 0
URL: http://temoalgebra.com/
(It is a custom error, presumably produced by whatever library you are
using, but what on earth is that "anymore" about? A browser either can
replace elements at runtime or it cannot; it is not a faculty that
comes and goes).
And don't you think that a 2.5 MB download is a little excessive for a
single web page (even if it were actually functional)?
Richard.
Kenneth Tilton
> On Jun 29, 11:43 am, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>>
>> http://teamalgebra.com/
> <snip>
>
> OK, what is the point of positing to a javascript group a link to a
It is based on qooxlisp, a great JS library, is the point.
that produces a javascript error before it even finishes
Works for me on Chrome, FireFox, Safari, and IE. And slowly on Opera.
> loading (that being a total failure by any javascript standard)? That
> error being:-
>
> Line: 5180
> Char: 9
> Error: Image modification not possible because elements could not be
> replaced at runtime anymore!
> Code: 0
> URL: http://temoalgebra.com/
What the hell is temoalgebra? Try: http://teamalgebra.com/
Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
>
> (It is a custom error, presumably produced by whatever library you are
> using, but what on earth is that "anymore" about? A browser either can
> replace elements at runtime or it cannot; it is not a faculty that
> comes and goes).
>
> And don't you think that a 2.5 MB download is a little excessive for a
> single web page (even if it were actually functional)?
Last I looked it was ~800k and the "single web page" is the entire web
application (which was 40mb as a desltop app).
Kids will work on Algebra for 10-50 minutes at a time, they'll wait 2-3s.
Richard Cornford
> Richard Cornford wrote:
>> On Jun 29, 11:43 am, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>
>>>http://teamalgebra.com/
>> <snip>
>
>> OK, what is the point of positing to a javascript group
>> a link to a web page ...
>
> It is based on qooxlisp, a great JS library, is the point.
The point you are making about qooxlisp is probably not the point you
think you are making.
> that produces a javascript error before it even finishes
>
> Works for me on Chrome, FireFox, Safari, and IE. And slowly
> on Opera.
That seems to be an exaggeration.
>> loading (that being a total failure by any javascript standard)?
>> That error being:-
>
>> Line: 5180
>> Char: 9
>> Error: Image modification not possible because elements could not
>> be replaced at runtime anymore!
>> Code: 0
>> URL:http://temoalgebra.com/
>
> What the hell is temoalgebra? Try:http://teamalgebra.com/
It is a typo.
> Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
What has the OS got to do with anything? And there is only one browser
that outputs its error reports in that style (which means that only
someone who was not looking at their error reports would not recognise
it (which would also be someone who thought something was fine while
it was generating errors)).
>> (It is a custom error, presumably produced by whatever library
>> you are using, but what on earth is that "anymore" about? A
>> browser either can replace elements at runtime or it cannot;
>> it is not a faculty that comes and goes).
>
>> And don't you think that a 2.5 MB download is a little excessive
>> for a single web page (even if it were actually functional)?
>
> Last I looked it was ~800k
It sounds like you are not measuring your HTTP traffic very
effectively.
> and the "single web page" is the entire web
> application
That is probably a mater of perspective.
> (which was 40mb as a desltop app).
>
> Kids will work on Algebra for 10-50 minutes at a time, they'll
> wait 2-3s.
35 seconds here for an initial load, and gambling on the patience of
children doesn't sound like it has as much mileage as you think.
Richard.
His kennyness
> On Jun 29, 2:06 pm, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>> Richard Cornford wrote:
>>> On Jun 29, 11:43 am, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>>> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>>
>>>> http://teamalgebra.com/
>>> <snip>
>>
>>> OK, what is the point of positing to a javascript group
>>> a link to a web page ...
>>
>> It is based on qooxlisp, a great JS library, is the point.
>
> The point you are making about qooxlisp is probably not the point you
> think you are making.
Sorry, I meant qooxdoo. qooxlisp is my integration of Lisp and qooxdoo.
>
>> that produces a javascript error before it even finishes
>>
>> Works for me on Chrome, FireFox, Safari, and IE. And slowly
>> on Opera.
>
> That seems to be an exaggeration.
No luck with Konqueror. Or Opera. FireFox and Chrome are fine on Ubuntu.
>
>>> loading (that being a total failure by any javascript standard)?
>>> That error being:-
>>
>>> Line: 5180
>>> Char: 9
>>> Error: Image modification not possible because elements could not
>>> be replaced at runtime anymore!
>>> Code: 0
>>> URL:http://temoalgebra.com/
>>
>> What the hell is temoalgebra? Try:http://teamalgebra.com/
>
> It is a typo.
>
>> Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
>
> What has the OS got to do with anything?
Oh, right, the same browser on different OSes always works exactly the
same. Not a programmer, eh?
> And there is only one browser
> that outputs its error reports in that style (which means that only
> someone who was not looking at their error reports would not recognise
> it (which would also be someone who thought something was fine while
> it was generating errors)).
>
>>> (It is a custom error, presumably produced by whatever library
>>> you are using, but what on earth is that "anymore" about? A
>>> browser either can replace elements at runtime or it cannot;
>>> it is not a faculty that comes and goes).
>>
>>> And don't you think that a 2.5 MB download is a little excessive
>>> for a single web page (even if it were actually functional)?
>>
>> Last I looked it was ~800k
>
> It sounds like you are not measuring your HTTP traffic very
> effectively.
What I measured was the 2s it took for the app to come up. Case closed.
>
>> and the "single web page" is the entire web
>> application
>
> That is probably a mater of perspective.
No, that is how it works. After the page loads it's all the JS sailing
back and forth altering what the user sees.
You should talk less and learn more.
>
>> (which was 40mb as a desltop app).
>>
>> Kids will work on Algebra for 10-50 minutes at a time, they'll
>> wait 2-3s.
>
> 35 seconds here for an initial load, ..
I get 2s no matter where I try it, so I will just ignore your report
unless you have a stack to report as well.
> and gambling on the patience of
> children doesn't sound like it has as much mileage as you think.
Talk about childish...
kt
His kennyness
>> Don't mind the whacky color scheme, that is just leftover debuggery to
>> help me sort out the qooxdoo layout manager. It's pretty powerful hence
>> sometimes surprising.
>
> FYI
> It does not seem to work well with a spanish keyboard.
What browser? I just saw the hyphen keystroke come through as "m" using
Opera (and had reports similar to yours from users of <some other> browser.
>
>> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
>> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
>> Macworld
>
> You seem to be also stuckonproprietarysoftware
>
Yeah, we're going to put all you Communists out of business.
kt
John G Harris
wrote:
<snip>
>Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
<snip>
It gets javascript errors for me as well. (More than one).
Hint:
It's the browser that Microsoft security updates recommend.
It's the browser that's being heavily advertised in magazines and
newspapers.
And it's XP SP3.
John
--
John Harris
Evertjan.
> It's the browser that Microsoft security updates recommend.
> It's the browser that's being heavily advertised in magazines and
> newspapers.
>
> And it's XP SP3.
That's not a browser.
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Richard Cornford
> On 06/29/2010 10:28 AM, Richard Cornford wrote:
>> On Jun 29, 2:06 pm, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>> Richard Cornford wrote:
>>>> On Jun 29, 11:43 am, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>>>> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>
>>>>>http://teamalgebra.com/
>>>> <snip>
>
>>>> OK, what is the point of positing to a javascript group
>>>> a link to a web page ...
>
>>> It is based on qooxlisp, a great JS library, is the point.
>
>> The point you are making about qooxlisp is probably not the
>> point you think you are making.
>
> Sorry, I meant qooxdoo. qooxlisp is my integration of Lisp
> and qooxdoo.
Alright, the point you think you are making about qooxdoo is probably
not the point that you are making.
>>> that produces a javascript error before it even finishes
>
>>> Works for me on Chrome, FireFox, Safari, and IE. And slowly
>>> on Opera.
>
>> That seems to be an exaggeration.
>
> No luck with Konqueror. Or Opera. FireFox and Chrome are fine
> on Ubuntu.
See, as you get more specific the list gets shorter.
>>>> loading (that being a total failure by any javascript standard)?
>>>> That error being:-
>
>>>> Line: 5180
>>>> Char: 9
>>>> Error: Image modification not possible because elements could not
>>>> be replaced at runtime anymore!
>>>> Code: 0
>>>> URL:http://temoalgebra.com/
>
>>> What the hell is temoalgebra? Try:http://teamalgebra.com/
>
>> It is a typo.
>
>>> Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
>
>> What has the OS got to do with anything?
>
> Oh, right, the same browser on different OSes always works exactly
> the same.
Yes, to the extent that they are the same browser.
> Not a programmer, eh?
If you say so.
>> And there is only one browser that outputs its error reports in
>> that style (which means that only someone who was not looking at
>> their error reports would not recognise it (which would also be
>> someone who thought something was fine while it was generating
>> errors)).
>
>>>> (It is a custom error, presumably produced by whatever library
>>>> you are using, but what on earth is that "anymore" about? A
>>>> browser either can replace elements at runtime or it cannot;
>>>> it is not a faculty that comes and goes).
>
>>>> And don't you think that a 2.5 MB download is a little excessive
>>>> for a single web page (even if it were actually functional)?
>
>>> Last I looked it was ~800k
>
>> It sounds like you are not measuring your HTTP traffic very
>> effectively.
>
> What I measured was the 2s it took for the app to come up. Case
> closed.
Returning to the point of your post; wasn't there some intention to
make that point to a wider audience?
>>> and the "single web page" is the entire web
>>> application
>
>> That is probably a mater of perspective.
>
> No, that is how it works.
I ma talking about the label. You show me a broken toy and call it an
"application", I don't see it that way.
> After the page loads it's all the JS sailing
> back and forth altering what the user sees.
>
> You should talk less and learn more.
Possibly I should learn to identify those who are not capable of
listening more quickly.
>>> (which was 40mb as a desltop app).
>
>>> Kids will work on Algebra for 10-50 minutes at a time, they'll
>>> wait 2-3s.
>
>> 35 seconds here for an initial load, ..
>
> I get 2s no matter where I try it, so I will just ignore your
> report unless you have a stack to report as well.
A somewhat arbitrary reason for ignoring someone (though I doubt that
it will be followed through).
>> and gambling on the patience of children doesn't sound like
>> it has as much mileage as you think.
>
> Talk about childish...
?
Richard.
His kennyness
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 at 09:06:47, in comp.lang.javascript, Kenneth Tilton
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
> <snip>
>
> It gets javascript errors for me as well. (More than one).
Errors or are you see the logging to the console I forgot to take out?
Does the app come up and let you do Algebra?
>
> Hint:
> It's the browser that Microsoft security updates recommend.
> It's the browser that's being heavily advertised in magazines and
> newspapers.
>
> And it's XP SP3.
I just tested on XP Pro 2002 SP3 with IE, no problems.
But I really should get those console.logs out of there.
thx for the report.
kt
His kennyness
I'll struggle along without selling to people who cannot use FireFox,
Chrome, Safari, and IE as long as I can.
Hey, it's just a POC right now, and pretty damn exciting to anyone who
knows the desktop app and knows how little time it is taking me to get a
similar GUI up under all the browsers that matter.
The big win was jsMath, which took care of the math layout which I used
to do (badly) myself.
>
>> After the page loads it's all the JS sailing
>> back and forth altering what the user sees.
>>
>> You should talk less and learn more.
>
> Possibly I should learn to identify those who are not capable of
> listening more quickly.
>
>>>> (which was 40mb as a desltop app).
>>
>>>> Kids will work on Algebra for 10-50 minutes at a time, they'll
>>>> wait 2-3s.
>>
>>> 35 seconds here for an initial load, ..
>>
>> I get 2s no matter where I try it, so I will just ignore your
>> report unless you have a stack to report as well.
>
> A somewhat arbitrary reason for ignoring someone (though I doubt that
> it will be followed through).
Sorry, we call this triage: someone making un-reproducible reports of
behavior 20 times slower than is observed elsewhere has to be ignored
until I can outsource your call to India.
kt
His kennyness
> John G Harris wrote on 29 jun 2010 in comp.lang.javascript:
>
>> It's the browser that Microsoft security updates recommend.
>> It's the browser that's being heavily advertised in magazines and
>> newspapers.
>>
>> And it's XP SP3.
>
> That's not a browser.
>
>
I requested as much info as possible so I could try to reproduce.
kt
John G Harris
wrote:
>John G Harris wrote on 29 jun 2010 in comp.lang.javascript:
>
>> It's the browser that Microsoft security updates recommend.
>> It's the browser that's being heavily advertised in magazines and
>> newspapers.
>>
>> And it's XP SP3.
>
>That's not a browser.
Nor is it an operating system :-)
John
--
John Harris
John G Harris
wrote:
>On 06/29/2010 11:43 AM, John G Harris wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 at 09:06:47, in comp.lang.javascript, Kenneth Tilton
>> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
>> <snip>
>>
>> It gets javascript errors for me as well. (More than one).
>
>Errors or are you see the logging to the console I forgot to take out?
Errors.
>Does the app come up and let you do Algebra?
Can't tell. What is it supposed to do?
>> Hint:
>> It's the browser that Microsoft security updates recommend.
>> It's the browser that's being heavily advertised in magazines and
>> newspapers.
>>
>> And it's XP SP3.
>
>I just tested on XP Pro 2002 SP3 with IE, no problems.
Which IE ?
John
--
John Harris
Kenneth Tilton
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 at 13:01:53, in comp.lang.javascript, His kennyness
> wrote:
>> On 06/29/2010 11:43 AM, John G Harris wrote:
>>> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 at 09:06:47, in comp.lang.javascript, Kenneth Tilton
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>> Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> It gets javascript errors for me as well. (More than one).
>> Errors or are you see the logging to the console I forgot to take out?
>
> Errors.
such as?
kt
>
>
>> Does the app come up and let you do Algebra?
>
> Can't tell. What is it supposed to do?
>
>
>>> Hint:
>>> It's the browser that Microsoft security updates recommend.
>>> It's the browser that's being heavily advertised in magazines and
>>> newspapers.
>>>
>>> And it's XP SP3.
>> I just tested on XP Pro 2002 SP3 with IE, no problems.
>
> Which IE ?
>
> John
--
Evertjan.
> I requested as much info as possible so I could try to reproduce.
Not that much info is necessary, just a mate of the opposite sex.
Then it is just like debugging, trial and error correction.
Kenneth Tilton
> His kennyness wrote on 29 jun 2010 in comp.lang.javascript:
>
>> I requested as much info as possible so I could try to reproduce.
>
> Not that much info is necessary, just a mate of the opposite sex.
Come on in: http://thelaughingstockatpngs.com/
His kennyness
> On 06/29/2010 11:43 AM, John G Harris wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 at 09:06:47, in comp.lang.javascript, Kenneth Tilton
>> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
>> <snip>
>>
>> It gets javascript errors for me as well. (More than one).
>
> Errors or are you see the logging to the console I forgot to take out?
btw, were you seeing 404s on things like char3E.png?
I thought I had provided all the support files required by jsMath, but I
did not even come close. Now rectified. Opps, one more font directory to
go. Glad you asked.
kt
RobG
> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>
> http://teamalgebra.com/
Very slow to load, over 20 seconds. Sometimes it gets stuck and just
stops loading in a dysfunctional state and a reload is required to get
it to "work".
Freestyle section:
Seems dysfunctional and very slow. Selecting "Simplify" and entering:
y = 2x + 3x
does not seem to do anything useful. The delete key does nothing.
Pressing return after finishing typing does nothing. Entering "==" as
suggested in the typing tutorial does nothing. Clicking "Hint" does
nothing.
I have no idea whether the application is supposed to simplify the
function or if I am expected to enter the simplification and it will
check if I'm right. I couldn't do either to find out.
Typing tutorial section:
When instructions on the screen are followed precisely, things go as
planned (more or less, if you have a lot of patience and wait
diligently for the display to update). Any deviation can have
unpredictable results.
The UI is awful. Apart from being very slow (glacial) and jerky when
keys are pressed, it doesn't work as one might expect:
1. The delete key doesn't do anything
2. Selecting multiple characters and pressing backspace should delete
the selected characters - it doesn't.
3. Shift+left arrow should select one or more characters to the left
of the cursor - it doesn't.
4. Inside a text field, the cursor should be able to be positioned
using the mouse, it can't
5. Pressing the tab key 3 or 4 times results in the cursor jumping
around more or less randomly between fields. Text may be entered into
any field, or different ones. The random jerkiness continues for some
time, minutes at least.
Other sections don't have any useful content yet.
Overall, it rates somewhere between dysfunctional and unusable.
For the record, I used Firefox 3.6.6 on Windows XP.
An OT question: what place does automatic parenthesis insertion have
in an algebra tutorial? Shouldn't students be learning where to put
them themselves?
> I like -3x > 15 because then it offers two hints, one about dividing on
> both sides and one about flipping the inequality.
Where? When? How?
>
> That is the qooxdoo JS library driven by a Lisp server app running
> AllegroServe, all with Cells Inside(tm), running on an AWS 64-bit instance.
So if I want a slow, dysfunctional application I should use those
technologies?
> Don't mind the whacky color scheme, that is just leftover debuggery to
> help me sort out the qooxdoo layout manager. It's pretty powerful hence
> sometimes surprising.
On the contrary, I think Qooxdoo is a significant part of your
problem. Have you tried a minimalist approach, using HTML and CSS as
much as possible and keeping scripting to an absolute minimum? How
about an approach where the user types into a field and can see the
resulting formatted expression in a separate part of the page?
Creating an entire UI in javascript is rarely a good idea, that is why
frameworks like Qooxdoo are almost certain to fail when applied to
applications on the web.
> --http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
> Macworld
Perhaps you should ask them to review your web version.
--
Rob
Richard Cornford
> On 06/29/2010 12:29 PM, Richard Cornford wrote:
>> On Jun 29, 4:09 pm, His kennyness wrote:
>>> On 06/29/2010 10:28 AM, Richard Cornford wrote:
>>>> On Jun 29, 2:06 pm, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>>>> Kids will work on Algebra for 10-50 minutes at a time,
>>>>> they'll wait 2-3s.
>
>>>> 35 seconds here for an initial load, ..
>
>>> I get 2s no matter where I try it, so I will just ignore
>>> your report unless you have a stack to report as well.
>
>> A somewhat arbitrary reason for ignoring someone (though
>> I doubt that it will be followed through).
>
> Sorry, we call this triage:
Who are "we" in this case? In normal triage decisions are made based
on the condition of the subject, rather than some other arbitrary
factor. After all, what has my having "a stack" (whatever you think
you mean by that) got to do with how long the resources employed by a
website take to download (or how many bytes that download represents.
> someone making un-reproducible reports of behavior 20
> times slower than is observed elsewhere has to be
> ignored until I can outsource your call to India.
I did not call, you presented your creation for comment and I
commented. I have precisely zero intention of helping you solve the
problems you have with that creation, even if you were not so
determined to hide from them.
Obviously I have no idea how you are going about this 'testing' you
are doing but I suspect that it is seriously faulty based on what you
are saying. For example, you assert that "Last I looked it was ~800k",
yet the single resource at http://teamalgebra.com/script/soa.js is
sent with a Content-Length header of 1074214, which alone far exceeds
800k, and that is without the content of the responses to the other 80
odd request made during the initial loading of the page. If you are
failing to reproduce the issues that you are being told about it seems
quite likely that you are either not trying very hard or don't know
how to set about it.
Richard.
His kennyness
> On Jun 29, 8:43 pm, Kenneth Tilton<kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>>
>> http://teamalgebra.com/
>
> Very slow to load, over 20 seconds.
I get 1-2s, ie, too fast to notice. But I'll keep my eye on these
sporadic "slow load" reports. There seems to be some interaction at work
in which people opposed to large JS libraries get really slow loads.
Puzzling...
> Sometimes it gets stuck and just
> stops loading in a dysfunctional state and a reload is required to get
> it to "work".
No shit, Einstein. Look at the warnings all over the site that I am
sharing what /does/ work as I go but that overall it is a train wreck.
The spirit is: sharing with people interested in programming the web
with Lisp and qooxdoo, and/or with people interested in math education.
Usenet flameholes are not a big worry yet, but when i think it is done
you'll be terribly useful for stress-testing. Don't go away.
>
> Freestyle section:
>
> Seems dysfunctional and very slow. Selecting "Simplify" and entering:
>
> y = 2x + 3x
(a) Another choice was solve. Duh.
(b) I have yet to add "Solve for _" to the interface for equations with
more than one variable. The qooxdoo RadioGroupBox widget is badly
implemented*, I'll have to find a spare hour soon to deal with it.
* Feel better?
>
> The delete key does nothing.
Yeah, and that is going to be tricky in a wysiwyg math editor, but I
used to handle that so ... eventually. The backstory is that in the past
I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours implementing drag-select,
cut-and-paste, etc etc and I am pretty sure that that was a waste of
time for an Algebra basics tutorial. Kids just will not use cut/paste
for -3x-2>13. yet the development cost is extraordinary. Hell, i am not
even worried about letting them click to position the cursor.
The moral is: without an unlimited budget (meaning, "always") do not
implement cool feature X until a good number of people (other than JS
library haters) ask for it.
> An OT question: what place does automatic parenthesis insertion have
> in an algebra tutorial? Shouldn't students be learning where to put
> them themselves?
We agree! It /is/ important for students to face all the challenges, but
what challenge goes away if we generate the balancing parens when they
type the left? If there were a parens-rich expression (not so much at
this level) they would still need to put things in the right place
relative to those parens. Your comment makes it sound like they just
type anything they want and the software goes through and decideds where
to put parens to make the expression correct. Nope.
if you mean they might neglect to add a balancing parens, then we can
get into why math education sucks: we should not punish careless error,
we should if we can just worry about the concepts. With pencil and paper
we are forced to hold kids' feet to the fire on some of these things,
but where software can provide a safety net it lowers the barrier to
entry to what can be a very enjoyable subject.
Another problem is that editing math has to be incredibly slick if
students who are already struggling with the concepts of math are going
to benefit from software. ie, the typical math equation editor where
one /builds/ a math expression piece by piece is not going to cut it.
kt
John G Harris
wrote:
>On 06/29/2010 11:41 PM, RobG wrote:
>> On Jun 29, 8:43 pm, Kenneth Tilton<kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>>>
>>> http://teamalgebra.com/
>>
>> Very slow to load, over 20 seconds.
>
>I get 1-2s, ie, too fast to notice.
Your soa.js is 1,077,248 bytes long. To get a 2s download time you need
an 8+Mbit/s connection transferring at full speed. You should assume
that many of your broadband customers are getting only 2Mb/s.
Your sure.png is over 118 kB. It can be reduced to 17 kB without
degradation by making it a GIF file with 32 colours.
John
--
John Harris
His kennyness
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 at 09:35:52, in comp.lang.javascript, His kennyness
> wrote:
>> On 06/29/2010 11:41 PM, RobG wrote:
>>> On Jun 29, 8:43 pm, Kenneth Tilton<kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>>>>
>>>> http://teamalgebra.com/
>>>
>>> Very slow to load, over 20 seconds.
>>
>> I get 1-2s, ie, too fast to notice.
> <snip>
>
> Your soa.js is 1,077,248 bytes long. To get a 2s download time you need
> an 8+Mbit/s connection transferring at full speed. You should assume
> that many of your broadband customers are getting only 2Mb/s.
I have a standard cable-based broadband connection.
teamalgebra.com came up in (I lied) four seconds. This is running in a
virtual machine that has never surfed the web beofre, so nothing was
cached. cnn.com came up in twelve seconds.
case still closed.
>
> Your sure.png is over 118 kB. It can be reduced to 17 kB without
> degradation by making it a GIF file with 32 colours.
>
Forest. Trees. Please note order.
kt
Richard Cornford
> On 06/29/2010 11:41 PM, RobG wrote:
>> The delete key does nothing.
>
> Yeah, and that is going to be tricky in a wysiwyg math editor,
But for some reason not that tricky in browser-based wysiwig HTML
editors.
> but I used to handle that so ... eventually. The backstory is
> that in the past I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours
> implementing drag-select, cut-and-paste, etc etc and I am pretty
> sure that that was a waste of time for an Algebra basics tutorial.
> Kids just will not use cut/paste for -3x-2>13. yet the
> development cost is extraordinary. Hell, i am not even worried
> about letting them click to position the cursor.
>
> The moral is: without an unlimited budget (meaning, "always")
> do not implement cool feature X until a good number of people
> (other than JS library haters) ask for it.
<snip>
That would be a conclusion that suggest you haven't understood what
you have done. The standard HTML input field had support for delete,
navigation (of characters, words, etc.) by keyboard, home, end, insert/
overwrite, cursor positioning by mouse, drag selection, copy, paste,
etc., etc. And usually using OS native idioms familiar to the user
form their experience with other software in that environment. All of
this built-in, handled by the browser and available at precisely zero
effort to the javascript programmer. (And that is without even
considering features such as - contentEditable - and the like for non-
form control elements.)
If you are working in a browser and you don't have these facilities
then that is not because you haven't bothered to make the effort to
put them in, it is because you made some effort to design them out.
And not appreciating that suggest you designed them about without
realising that you were doing so, which is probably true as you were
determined to disregard the warnings you were given about qooxdoo when
you first proposed using it. And it is the decision (your decision,
despite advice to the contrary) to use qooxdoo is the point where you
designed a whole host of useful/desirable features out of your
product.
The qooxdoo approach, of attempting to do away with the browser's
HTML, and its accompanying layout and presentation facilities in
favour of a fully scripted alternative is initially appealing because
it allows a (superficial) level of direct control over the
presentation that does not appear to be available otherwise. Many
people have tried it, and given up when they realised the depth of the
problems they were creating for themselves. These problems include,
but are fare from limited to, recreating all of the (familiar, to the
user) keyboard interaction features that the browser would have been
providing for free. These things are difficult to script, especially
when you consider their full range, the differences in styles between
OS, alternative input methods (e.g. Tablet PC's handwriting input
methods), alternative keyboard layouts and accessibility generally. So
the creators of libraries that attempt to provide a fully scripted
user interface don't tend to provide these things, because they have
avoided the HTML provided facilities and, either out of ignorance of
their existence, the extent of their existence, the inability to
implement them or the realisation that implementing them will bloat
and slow their product to the point where it will be seen as non-
viable, they have done little (or nothing) to script these things back
into their libraries. And this is qooxdoo, there appears to be much
breadth in its set of UI widgets but there is very little depth to
them; they are nowhere near to being finished (in the sense of
providing equivalent facilities to those that the browser would have
provided, if asked to) and the amount of additional code that will be
needed to finish them is not going to help a framework that is already
bulky and slow.
You will, of course, assert that you don't care. But in the end the
reactions to qooxdoo expressed to you in the past are really not just
the knee-jerk reactions of "JS library haters", but are instead, at
least in part, a reaction to an understanding of what qooxdoo is
doing, how far short it is currently falling of achieving what it is
attempting, and that any choice to use it will have considerable
negative consequences (not least in terms of the facilities provided
by any possible user interface).
Richard.
Gildas
> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>
> http://teamalgebra.com/
>
Hi,
Do you really need to send to your server a XHR each time I hit a key
or click in the input control ?
RobG
> On 06/29/2010 11:41 PM, RobG wrote:
>
> > On Jun 29, 8:43 pm, Kenneth Tilton<kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>
> >>http://teamalgebra.com/
>
> > Very slow to load, over 20 seconds.
>
> I get 1-2s, ie, too fast to notice.
It loads in 5 to 10 seconds sometimes, but that is over a very fast
connection.
> > Sometimes it gets stuck and just
> > stops loading in a dysfunctional state and a reload is required to get
> > it to "work".
>
> No shit, Einstein. Look at the warnings all over the site that I am
> sharing what /does/ work as I go but that overall it is a train wreck.
You post a link asking for comment, I visit, notice behaviour and
report it. I have no idea what your expectations are for the site, how
can I know whether what I experience is what *you* expected? How do I
know what I should and should not report?
[...]
> Usenet flameholes are not a big worry yet, but when i think it is done
> you'll be terribly useful for stress-testing. Don't go away.
After replying with abusive language you expect me to continue helping
you out?
> > Freestyle section:
>
> > Seems dysfunctional and very slow. Selecting "Simplify" and entering:
>
> > y = 2x + 3x
>
> (a) Another choice was solve. Duh.
You trimmed the bit where I said:
| I have no idea whether the application is
| supposed to simplify the function or if I
| am expected to enter the simplification and
| it will check if I'm right. I couldn't do
| either to find out.
In other words, tried other options but *none* of them worked. I had
hoped you'd tell me what it is supposed to do, whether or not it works
and if it does how to make it work. Instead I get Homer Simpson.
*None* of the options work, not simplify, factor, solve, solve and
classify or hint.
> (b) I have yet to add "Solve for _" to the interface for equations with
> more than one variable.
What is already there doesn't work, at all. It might be better to get
it working first.
[...]
> > The delete key does nothing.
>
> Yeah, and that is going to be tricky in a wysiwyg math editor, but I
> used to handle that so ... eventually. The backstory is that in the past
> I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours implementing drag-select,
> cut-and-paste, etc etc and I am pretty sure that that was a waste of
> time for an Algebra basics tutorial. Kids just will not use cut/paste
> for -3x-2>13. yet the development cost is extraordinary. Hell, i am not
> even worried about letting them click to position the cursor.
If you used a basic HTML interface, all that functionality comes free,
with zero development effort.
> The moral is: without an unlimited budget (meaning, "always") do not
> implement cool feature X until a good number of people (other than JS
> library haters) ask for it.
The moral is don't throw away *all* the functionality provided for
free in a browser, then complain when you realise you'll have to re-
code it all.
[...]
> Another problem is that editing math has to be incredibly slick if
> students who are already struggling with the concepts of math are going
> to benefit from software.
Yet you see no need for many basic UI features that are missing from
your application. Perhaps we have different views on what a "slick"
interface is.
[...]
--
Rob
Stefan Weiss
>> Sometimes it gets stuck and just
>> stops loading in a dysfunctional state and a reload is required to get
>> it to "work".
>
> No shit, Einstein. Look at the warnings all over the site that I am
> sharing what /does/ work as I go but that overall it is a train wreck.
> The spirit is: sharing with people interested in programming the web
> with Lisp and qooxdoo, and/or with people interested in math education.
>
> Usenet flameholes are not a big worry yet, but when i think it is done
> you'll be terribly useful for stress-testing. Don't go away.
Was that really necessary? RobG gave you the feedback you were
(apparently) asking for, and for what it's worth, his observations come
very close to what I've experienced on your website. If you don't want
feedback, why do you even post to cljs? With your previous posts in this
group, I used to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this response,
together with that "communists" remark about open source, makes me think
you're just trolling here.
I know you're a comedian (you posted the link yourself), but it would be
nice if you told us whether you want to be taken seriously at all. If
you do, please show some courtesy to the people who are trying to help
you with your quooxdoo/lisp/algebra effort.
--
stefan
His kennyness
> On 30/06/10 15:35, His kennyness wrote:
>>> Sometimes it gets stuck and just
>>> stops loading in a dysfunctional state and a reload is required to get
>>> it to "work".
>>
>> No shit, Einstein. Look at the warnings all over the site that I am
>> sharing what /does/ work as I go but that overall it is a train wreck.
>> The spirit is: sharing with people interested in programming the web
>> with Lisp and qooxdoo, and/or with people interested in math education.
>>
>> Usenet flameholes are not a big worry yet, but when i think it is done
>> you'll be terribly useful for stress-testing. Don't go away.
>
> Was that really necessary?
I'll try again (or you could just do your damndest to Actually Read(tm)
what I wrote above. Your choice. From the page Mr Genius is complaining
about:
"This is a work in progress. i.e., It is a mess. Think of it as watching
a building going up."
On the welcome page (overusing the metaphor, I concede): "But this web
site is still being developed. Some things are missing.. and some things
do not work. If you like watching buildings go up, come on in!"
Now if you still do not understand why only an idiot would post hundreds
of words of complaints about the behavior of the system... yer not
trying are you? I get a lot of that around here, mostly from people who
hate JS libraries.
if you are still confused (or pretending to be) consider that RobG ended
with "have you tried just doing HTML"? See axe. Grind. Not that I had
any doubt what was his motivation, but I appreciated the outright
confession.
> RobG gave you the feedback you were
> (apparently) asking for,
I was asking for intellectually dishonest axe-grinding? Damn, I am worse
than i thought.
Check your notes, i did not ask for anything. I am sharing a neat meld
of Lisp and qooxdoo to web programming for a universal audience no
harder than programming for one OS desktop using Gtk. Anyone interested
in web programming should be using this technology. Your buddy meanwhile
is upset that the editor supports backspace but does not support delete.
Love that laser focus on what matters.
If you were aware of my disclaimers and did not chastise RobG for
ignoring him, shame on you. If you were not aware of them, then you ahve
not been to the site and are defending RobG on the basis of ignorance.
Same shame.
kt
His kennyness
Have you seen the code behind the math editor? Obviously a port to JS
would be worthwhile when there are no other problems to solve, or if the
round-trip itself turns out to be a show-stopper. But what I am sure you
have not considered is the typing speed of a student doing Algebra. I am
also sure that you believe "texting" from cell phones will never catch
on because it is so hard typing in the messages.
Keep up the good work.
kt
<what a bunch of losers>
His kennyness
> On Jun 30, 11:35 pm, His kennyness<kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 06/29/2010 11:41 PM, RobG wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 29, 8:43 pm, Kenneth Tilton<kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>>
>>>> http://teamalgebra.com/
>>
>>> Very slow to load, over 20 seconds.
>>
>> I get 1-2s, ie, too fast to notice.
>
> It loads in 5 to 10 seconds sometimes, but that is over a very fast
> connection.
ha-ha, awesome, I am up to 4, you are down to 5-10. Another couple of
messages and we may pass each other. I feel a word problem coming on...
one flamer leaves from 2s at 10am, another leaves from 30s six hours
earlier...
kt
His kennyness
> On Jun 30, 2:35 pm, His kennyness wrote:
>> On 06/29/2010 11:41 PM, RobG wrote:
> <snip>
>>> The delete key does nothing.
>>
>> Yeah, and that is going to be tricky in a wysiwyg math editor,
>
> But for some reason not that tricky in browser-based wysiwig HTML
> editors.
You do not even know what my math editor does and are smart enough to
talk about it anyway? Will you be my friend? i could learn so
much....PWUAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAA!!!!!!
It's all about the principle of least surprise, and diabolically tricky
transformations of a syntax-heavy tree structure. Does HTML convey tree
structure with superscripts? Oh, no. it doesn't. Gosh, what a diff that
makes, eh? How about with a horizontal bar in fractions? No? Then what
are you yapping about? Go do your homework.
kt
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
> Was that really necessary? RobG gave you the feedback you were
> (apparently) asking for, and for what it's worth, his observations come
> very close to what I've experienced on your website. If you don't want
> feedback, why do you even post to cljs? With your previous posts in this
> group, I used to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this response,
> together with that "communists" remark about open source, makes me think
> you're just trolling here.
Just look at his From header -- "His kennyness" -- he can't be serious.
After a decade of Usenet experience now, I have had to realize that healthy
mistrust (here: score automatically reduced by 1) is appropriate against
anyone not posting under their real name on Usenet. Subtract another 1
for Web posters (like from Google Groups), and filter out the address
mungers.
There are exceptions, like RobG, but they are few and far between.
HTH & F'up2 poster
PointedEars
--
Danny Goodman's books are out of date and teach practices that are
positively harmful for cross-browser scripting.
-- Richard Cornford, cljs, <cife6q$253$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk> (2004)
Tim Down
That was a reasonable question, asked politely. You have responded
with yet more sneering. Did you actually want help or did you want an
argument?
Tim
Erwin Moller
> On 06/29/2010 10:28 AM, Richard Cornford wrote:
>> On Jun 29, 2:06 pm, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
<snip>
>>
>>> Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
>>
>> What has the OS got to do with anything?
>
> Oh, right, the same browser on different OSes always works exactly the
> same. Not a programmer, eh?
>
Richard not a programmer?
LOL. You are funny. :-)
Try this:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=richard+cornford
Listen, his Kennyness, some free advice: Trying to insult Richard is
probably not the best way to motivate him to help you out.
Regards,
Erwin Moller
--
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
-- C.A.R. Hoare
His kennyness
> His kennyness schreef:
>> On 06/29/2010 10:28 AM, Richard Cornford wrote:
>>> On Jun 29, 2:06 pm, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>
>>>> Nice bug report. No browser, no OS...
>>>
>>> What has the OS got to do with anything?
>>
>> Oh, right, the same browser on different OSes always works exactly the
>> same. Not a programmer, eh?
>>
>
>
> Richard not a programmer?
> LOL. You are funny. :-)
Thx, that was indeed meant to a typically asinine and silly Usenet way
of mocking the idea that I only have to test, say FireFox, on one OS to
be sure it works on them all (or in this case to take a bug report on a
browser on one OS and test on another -- sure, one can do that to see if
it happens there, too, but if it does not then another round-trip will
be necessary to determine the OS so one can reproduce.
ie, of course I know nothing about the guy except that he does not know
what should go into a good bug report, and good programmers tend to know
that.
Ever hear the expression "The most dangerous gun is one that is
unloaded."? Richard knows the OS cannot have an effect on software
running on the OS. I hope he does better than the guy I knew who proved
the saying about the gun.
I get a kick out of the tv medical mystery "House". They frequently ask
themselves what they "know".
kt
His kennyness
> On Jul 1, 6:19 am, His kennyness<kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 06/30/2010 02:35 PM, Gildas wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 juin, 12:43, Kenneth Tilton<kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Now you can ask for hints (and a bunch more is fixed):
>>
>>>> http://teamalgebra.com/
>>
>>> Hi,
>>
>>> Do you really need to send to your server a XHR each time I hit a key
>>> or click in the input control ?
>>
>> Have you seen the code behind the math editor? Obviously a port to JS
>> would be worthwhile when there are no other problems to solve, or if the
>> round-trip itself turns out to be a show-stopper. But what I am sure you
>> have not considered is the typing speed of a student doing Algebra. I am
>> also sure that you believe "texting" from cell phones will never catch
>> on because it is so hard typing in the messages.
>>
>> Keep up the good work.
>>
>> kt
>>
>> <what a bunch of losers>
>
> That was a reasonable question, asked politely.
Yeah, that wa indeed one of the better ones. I think I got to it after
wading through a bunch of lesser efforts and was unfair.
> You have responded
> with yet more sneering. Did you actually want help or did you want an
> argument?
>
Help? I thought I was sharing good news with javascript developers:
qooxdoo is a great library and a very effective way of programming RIAs.
ie, Ignore Mr. Mark and his lapdogs.
Lisp programmers get better news, a qooxdoo/Lisp integration involving a
silver bullet dataflow implementation called Cells.
http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/qooxlisp/
http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/cells/
kt
Asen Bozhilov
> You do not even know what my math editor does and are smart enough to
> talk about it anyway? Will you be my friend? i could learn so
> much....PWUAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAA!!!!!!
I always hate stupid people like you. cljs is strange place. Here come
different types of gurus and when they are denied they start to fill
comments like yours. I do not see any reasons for such a behavior. Are
you? cljs is probably the most valuable resource for javascript, but
with people like you in the near future will become at:
http://webdeveloper.com/
http://www.javascriptkit.com/cutpastejava.shtml
Go away and stop wasting our time with your brain problems!
Pascal Costanza
Kenny has a long history of displaying such behavior at comp.lang.lisp
as well. There is not much you can do about it, other than trying very
hard to ignore him. Good luck.
Pascal
--
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/
Kenneth Tilton
> His kennyness wrote:
>
>> You do not even know what my math editor does and are smart enough to
>> talk about it anyway? Will you be my friend? i could learn so
>> much....PWUAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAA!!!!!!
>
> I always hate stupid people like you.
It's good to have a steady policy on important issues.
> cljs is strange place. Here come
> different types of gurus ...
What I see, in all honesty, is a sad place where a few people with an
axe to grind over popular JS libraries sit around bullying anyone who
tries to discuss (or learn about or get help with) those projects.
What bullies cannot handle is someone who stands up to them, a pattern
repeated here.
kt
--
Andrew Poulos
> Asen Bozhilov wrote:
>> His kennyness wrote:
>>
>>> You do not even know what my math editor does and are smart enough to
>>> talk about it anyway? Will you be my friend? i could learn so
>>> much....PWUAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAA!!!!!!
>>
>> I always hate stupid people like you.
>
> It's good to have a steady policy on important issues.
>
>> cljs is strange place. Here come
>> different types of gurus ...
>
> What I see, in all honesty, is a sad place where a few people with an
> axe to grind over popular JS libraries sit around bullying anyone who
> tries to discuss (or learn about or get help with) those projects.
I didn't actually believe the negative remarks about the popular JS
libraries until I had the temerity to use one in an elearning course I
was hired to build.
"What could the harm be, its not like I'm controlling a nuclear
reactor?", I thought.
Alas, while the actual building was fairly painless the reports from the
field started coming in about screen freezing, about data being lost,
about slowness and delays... None of which occurred during my testing
with the "major" browsers on the more common OS.
In fact I couldn't reproduce most of the issues. In the end I had to rip
out the library code and write my own and so now everything runs fine.
So if you ask me about popular JS libraries my experience has been that
they were easy enough to work with but they caused endless, and unending
pain.
> What bullies cannot handle is someone who stands up to them, a pattern
> repeated here.
Who exactly do you think is the bully here? Surely its the person
throwing nasty comments at people who freely gave objective feedback,
ie. you are the bully.
Andrew Poulos
Kenneth Tilton
Right, which is why no one is using JS libraries but me. <sigh>
>
> So if you ask me about popular JS libraries my experience has been that
> they were easy enough to work with but they caused endless, and unending
> pain.
>
>> What bullies cannot handle is someone who stands up to them, a pattern
>> repeated here.
>
> Who exactly do you think is the bully here? Surely its the person
> throwing nasty comments at people who freely gave objective feedback,
> ie. you are the bully.
Yes, I am bullying the bullies. That drives them nuts.
btw, "objective feedback"? PWAUUUAUAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAA!!!!!
Come on in, we need you: http://thelaughingstockatpngs.com/
kt
--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
http://teamalgebra.com
Andrew Poulos
Yes, if you can con your client and don't have to deal with the
ramifications of your decision to use a JS library then its a good way
to go.
>> So if you ask me about popular JS libraries my experience has been
>> that they were easy enough to work with but they caused endless, and
>> unending pain.
>>
>>> What bullies cannot handle is someone who stands up to them, a pattern
>>> repeated here.
>>
>> Who exactly do you think is the bully here? Surely its the person
>> throwing nasty comments at people who freely gave objective feedback,
>> ie. you are the bully.
>
> Yes, I am bullying the bullies. That drives them nuts.
On the contrary, you are the *only* bully here.
Andrew Poulos
Gildas
Couldn't you at least not send a XHR each time a shift key is
repeated ? It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
try to write a number...
Also, is it *really* impossible to defer those XHR in order to group
keystrokes ?
Alessio Stalla
Which popular web applications use qooxdoo? Or smartclient?
Imho, JS libraries for "RIAs" are complete bullshit. They basically
rewrite everything down to the layout manager, not leveraging the
browser at all... and in a language, JavaScript, which is interpreted
and single-threaded! If you only use the browser as a canvas to paint
on, you'd get much better results with a Java applet. Or Flash - I'm
biased towards Java because that's what I know, but a few competing
technologies are out there for you to choose.
JS is good for lightweight scripting, not for implementing GUI
libraries.
Just my €.02.
Cheers,
Alessio
Kenneth Tilton
Have you actually looked at what the math editor does? There are some
tutorial examples you can follow on the "Typing Tutorial" tab:
You might be able to grok why the editor needs to get involved.
btw, Why are you watching XHR requests? You are supposed to be learning
Algebra. Does your ISP charge you for each?
kt
--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
Kenneth Tilton
Is that why they work so well? Cue the Markovian Hounds...
> They basically
> rewrite everything down to the layout manager, not leveraging the
> browser at all... and in a language, JavaScript, which is interpreted
> and single-threaded!
And JIT compiled these days!! Try solving -3x-2>13 for x over here:
Now tell me, was the application in fact too slow for you to do Algebra
assuming you were learning it? Or are you just arguing from general
principles? The latter is dangerous because it means burning hours to
speed things up which might not need it -- programmers guess badly at
what will be slow, and usually the problem is in the higher-order
design, not the implementation stack.
If it was too slow for you, go here and do a speed test to Washington,
DC: I get 12.43/2.10 down/up.
> If you only use the browser as a canvas to paint
> on, you'd get much better results with a Java applet. Or Flash - I'm
> biased towards Java because that's what I know,
My heart goes out to you.
> but a few competing
> technologies are out there for you to choose.
> JS is good for lightweight scripting, not for implementing GUI
> libraries.
Ah, you /are/ working from general rules. Tsk tsk!
Your problem is that I have used qooxdoo enough to see how well it works
cross-platform and how fast I am porting a desktop application to the
web. ie, You are trying with your kind recommendation to solve a problem
that does not exist.
kt
--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
Kenneth Tilton
Gildas wrote:
> It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
> try to write a number...
>
"dozen[s] of"?! (guessing at the idomatic expression you meant, but even
one dozen is a problem because...): There is one xhr per digit. I doubt
you were writing a number 24 digits long.
Please explain your misreport. Be careful: this will be a commercial
product so there is liability for damages involved.*
kt
* Nah, I just killfile people making silly comments so I can concentrate
on serious folks. k
Gildas
> > It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
> > try to write a number...
>
> "dozen[s] of"?! (guessing at the idomatic expression you meant, but even
> one dozen is a problem because...): There is one xhr per digit. I doubt
> you were writing a number 24 digits long.
Sorry for my bad English, I'm trying to do my best to improve it.
> Please explain your misreport. Be careful: this will be a commercial
> product so there is liability for damages involved.*
Use case :
Try to type a digit without numeric keyboard and without CAPS LOCK on.
Then, you'll need to press the shift key. Let's say you press shift
key one second, you have sent 20 XHR if keyrepeat is set to 20 on your
OS.
Kenneth Tilton
>> Gildas wrote:
>>> It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
>>> try to write a number...
>> "dozen[s] of"?! (guessing at the idomatic expression you meant, but even
>> one dozen is a problem because...): There is one xhr per digit. I doubt
>> you were writing a number 24 digits long.
>
> Sorry for my bad English, I'm trying to do my best to improve it.
Your english is fine, I just did not want to assume out of hand you
meant "dozens" when you had typed "dozen".
>
>
>> Please explain your misreport. Be careful: this will be a commercial
>> product so there is liability for damages involved.*
>
> Use case :
> Try to type a digit without numeric keyboard and without CAPS LOCK on.
I reach up to the fourth row of my keyboard and type the digit without
using any modifier keys.
Are you using a cell phone to do Algebra? That is so cool!
> Then, you'll need to press the shift key. Let's say you press shift
> key one second, you have sent 20 XHR if keyrepeat is set to 20 on your
> OS.
Oh, that. If you turn off your XHR viewer do you notice a problem? Does
your ISP charge you per XHR? Why are you watching XHRs? Are you just
looking for a reason to get annoyed?
I can prolly avoid that by watching for key-up and key-down events and
then keeping track internally (which is how my app works when talking to
tcl/tk). Hmm, maybe I can Just Filter Them on the client--I think the
modifiers state comes along with the actual key event.
Note that this is not an exercise in making comp.lang.javascript happy,
this is an exercise in improving math proficiency by moving a
little-known desktop application for Windows to the Web. It seems quite
fast to me, and the only people who say it is slow also turn out to be
library haters whose reports cannot be reproduced. Plonk.
If it makes you feel better, performance is indeed a mission-critical
concern in my mind and I have my eye out for problems. An initial big
concern was indeed the per-key round-trip. So far I have seen zero
problems. Your pain is self-inflicted: you are watching XHRs for no reason.
kt
Alessio Stalla
> > Which popular web applications use qooxdoo? Or smartclient?
I'm waiting for an answer...
> > Imho, JS libraries for "RIAs" are complete bullshit.
>
> Is that why they work so well? Cue the Markovian Hounds...
Evidently I don't believe they work that well...
> > They basically
> > rewrite everything down to the layout manager, not leveraging the
> > browser at all... and in a language, JavaScript, which is interpreted
> > and single-threaded!
>
> And JIT compiled these days!! Try solving -3x-2>13 for x over here:
>
> http://teamalgebra.com
>
> Now tell me, was the application in fact too slow for you to do Algebra
> assuming you were learning it? Or are you just arguing from general
> principles? The latter is dangerous because it means burning hours to
> speed things up which might not need it -- programmers guess badly at
> what will be slow, and usually the problem is in the higher-order
> design, not the implementation stack.
I'm not talking specifically about Algebra, and I'm not talking only
about speed either, but about general user experience.
>
> If it was too slow for you, go here and do a speed test to Washington,
> DC: I get 12.43/2.10 down/up.
>
> > If you only use the browser as a canvas to paint
> > on, you'd get much better results with a Java applet. Or Flash - I'm
> > biased towards Java because that's what I know,
>
> My heart goes out to you.
I'm not saying Java is perfect, far from it, just - in my humble
opinion - better than Flash and Silverlight. We all know that if the
browser was written in Lisp we would have far less problems :)
> > but a few competing
> > technologies are out there for you to choose.
> > JS is good for lightweight scripting, not for implementing GUI
> > libraries.
>
> Ah, you /are/ working from general rules. Tsk tsk!
>
> Your problem is that I have used qooxdoo enough to see how well it works
> cross-platform and how fast I am porting a desktop application to the
> web. ie, You are trying with your kind recommendation to solve a problem
> that does not exist.
The problem is precisely "porting a desktop application to the web".
That cannot be done, period. Not without either changing the
application to embrace the "web way", or using the browser as a mere
deployment tool, not a platform. Heavy use of AJAX + redoing a whole
GUI library in JS just doesn't cut it, at least today. Maybe in a few
years browsers will evolve, new protocols will be developed, and it
will indeed be possible to have desktop-like applications on the web,
but not today.
Alessio
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
> His kennyness wrote:
>> You do not even know what my math editor does and are smart enough to
>> talk about it anyway? Will you be my friend? i could learn so
>> much....PWUAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAA!!!!!!
>
> [...]
> Go away and stop wasting our time with your brain problems!
+-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
| PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
| FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
| | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
| Thank you, | ( (_) )
| Management | /`-vvv-'\
+-------------------+ / \
| | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
| | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
@x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
\||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
\||/ | | | (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
==================================================================
F'up2 0d
Stefan Weiss
>> Gildas wrote:
>> > It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
>> > try to write a number...
>>
>> "dozen[s] of"?! (guessing at the idomatic expression you meant, but even
>> one dozen is a problem because...): There is one xhr per digit. I doubt
>> you were writing a number 24 digits long.
(snip)
> Use case :
> Try to type a digit without numeric keyboard and without CAPS LOCK on.
> Then, you'll need to press the shift key. Let's say you press shift
> key one second, you have sent 20 XHR if keyrepeat is set to 20 on your
> OS.
The shift key will only be necessary on keyboard layouts like the French
one. English or American layouts normally have the numbers available in
the upper row without modifiers, and require shift for symbols like "!"
or "(".
The shift key shouldn't cause any repeating events. You should only get
events for one "keydown" and one "keyup". I don't see any XHR requests
sent for the shift key in the algebra editor at all.
That doesn't mean the editor is usable in its current state. It's
trivially easy to leave it in an unresponsive state by accident. This
happened to me twice in a row - in the "typing tutorial", no less. My
motivation to file a detailed bug report is rather low, because the
product in question is a commercial application by an author who prefers
to ridicule bug reporters, built on a commercial framework which has
been shown to be unreliable. Let them figure it out for themselves.
"His kennyness" said he doesn't want help with his application, and he
quite obviously doesn't want to discuss its JavaScript related aspects.
Yet he continues to post in comp.lang.javascript, pitching his algebra
product and insulting the other posters. That's not "bullying the
bullies", that's trolling and spamming.
PS: I just saw Kenneth Tilton's reply about the unnecessary XHR
requests. Performance is "mission-critical" for him, and the solution to
the problem is to close your eyes (don't look at the requests)? Priceless.
--
stefan
Gildas
> I reach up to the fourth row of my keyboard and type the digit without
> using any modifier keys.
>
> Are you using a cell phone to do Algebra? That is so cool!
> > Then, you'll need to press the shift key. Let's say you press shift
> > key one second, you have sent 20 XHR if keyrepeat is set to 20 on your
> > OS.
>
> Oh, that. If you turn off your XHR viewer do you notice a problem? Does
> your ISP charge you per XHR? Why are you watching XHRs? Are you just
> looking for a reason to get annoyed?
My ISP does not charge me per XHR. I'm watching XHRs because I'm a
developer too. Actually, if you didn't include firebug lite in your
site, I'm not sure I would have opened my developer debug tool.
> I can prolly avoid that by watching for key-up and key-down events and
> then keeping track internally (which is how my app works when talking to
> tcl/tk). Hmm, maybe I can Just Filter Them on the client--I think the
> modifiers state comes along with the actual key event.
Maybe.
> Note that this is not an exercise in making comp.lang.javascript happy,
> this is an exercise in improving math proficiency by moving a
> little-known desktop application for Windows to the Web. It seems quite
> fast to me, and the only people who say it is slow also turn out to be
> library haters whose reports cannot be reproduced. Plonk.
My name is Gildas, not comp.lang.javascript and it's the first time I
post here. So, I don't think I'm known as a "library hater".
> If it makes you feel better, performance is indeed a mission-critical
> concern in my mind and I have my eye out for problems. An initial big
> concern was indeed the per-key round-trip. So far I have seen zero
> problems. Your pain is self-inflicted: you are watching XHRs for no reason.
I just wanted to help you in order to improve your application.
BTW, the alt key does not seem to work (maybe a french laptop keyboard
issue) so I'm unable to type the last formula in the tutorial.
Kenneth Tilton
Well, that's the concern, isn't it? But the reason I gave it a try was
that I saw how responsive certain web apps had gotten. So I gave it a
try and it is working, and I guess you know it because you have not
admitted that this site is highly perofrmant:
And when you say "I am not talking about Algebra" then you need a good
plonking because the whole point with performance is that we are not
doing abstract applications, we are doing /this/ application and I
explained that so you are just being dense.
Alessio Stalla
Well, if you want to talk specifically about Algebra... I must say
that I only tried it from a corporate network that sucks badly, but
for me it's very slow - not particularly the load time but the
responsiveness. But the worst part is not really that, it's that the
GUI is not very usable, cut and paste don't work, and the overall feel
is that of really poor interactivity. I speculate that it all comes
from qooxdoo, even if you're desperately trying to convince me that
it's all your fault... ;)
Alessio
Stefan Weiss
> [...] built on a commercial framework [...]
Sorry, I confused that with Ext.
Qooxdoo is LGPL/EPL.
--
stefan
Peder O. Klingenberg
> It seems quite fast to me, and the only people who say it is slow also
> turn out to be library haters whose reports cannot be
> reproduced.
I'm reading this in comp.lang.lisp, and have no opinion on js libraries,
or indeed js at all. I tried your site the other day, and found it
painfully slow to load. This was at work, where we have a 100Mbit pipe
to the relevant transit provider, but I'm located in Europe, so the
latency might be a bit worse than in NYC.
I didn't time it, but I managed to switch to another virtual desktop,
read a mail, and switch back before the page rendered. It popped up a
firebug console with lots of scary-looking messages that I ignored.
Typing was bearable, but only just, there was a quite noticable lag
before anything rendered. I sometimes had trouble editing text I wrote,
and I couln't type < or > at all. I clicked the "solved" button
prematurely, and got an error message telling me to do more work, but I
was unable to return to editing the text.
This was on my normal work PC, an old Ubuntu install, 64 bit Firefox
3.0.something.
I tried at home now to see if the slowness was reproducible. "At home"
means MacOSX, Firefox 3.6.4, 25Mbit net connection. The slowness was
not reproducible here, because the page failed to render at all. The
firebug panel appeared, this time without scary messages, but the rest
of the page was a uniform, boring gray.
I know cells is cool and all, but I wasn't exactly blown away by this
demo, sorry.
...Peder...
--
I wish a new life awaited _me_ in some off-world colony.
Sherm Pendley
> I tried at home now to see if the slowness was reproducible. "At home"
> means MacOSX, Firefox 3.6.4, 25Mbit net connection. The slowness was
> not reproducible here, because the page failed to render at all. The
> firebug panel appeared, this time without scary messages, but the rest
> of the page was a uniform, boring gray.
Likewise on my Mac, with FF 3.6.6.
To be fair though, the uniform boring gray page *did* load and render
very quickly. ;-)
sherm--
--
Sherm Pendley <www.shermpendley.com>
<www.camelbones.org>
Cocoa Developer
Kenneth Tilton
> On 02/07/10 16:13, Gildas wrote:
>>> Gildas wrote:
>>>> It's quite annoying to see dozen of "blank" requests when I
>>>> try to write a number...
>>> "dozen[s] of"?! (guessing at the idomatic expression you meant, but even
>>> one dozen is a problem because...): There is one xhr per digit. I doubt
>>> you were writing a number 24 digits long.
>
> (snip)
>
>> Use case :
>> Try to type a digit without numeric keyboard and without CAPS LOCK on.
>> Then, you'll need to press the shift key. Let's say you press shift
>> key one second, you have sent 20 XHR if keyrepeat is set to 20 on your
>> OS.
>
> The shift key will only be necessary on keyboard layouts like the French
> one. English or American layouts normally have the numbers available in
> the upper row without modifiers, and require shift for symbols like "!"
> or "(".
>
> The shift key shouldn't cause any repeating events.
I believe I have. This is qooxdoo sending those events, their mileage
may differ.
>
> That doesn't mean the editor is usable in its current state. It's
> trivially easy to leave it in an unresponsive state by accident.
No, that means it is unusable until it breaks, as I explained up front.
Get it? Meanwhile, intellectually honest people are interested by my
approach to smart math editing and talk about that.
This
> happened to me twice in a row - in the "typing tutorial", no less. My
> motivation to file a detailed bug report is rather low,
I am encouraging folks not to spend any energy on bug reports because I
probably already know they are there or will find them soon enough. That
is not what I am doing now.
> "His kennyness" said he doesn't want help with his application, and he
> quite obviously doesn't want to discuss its JavaScript related aspects.
Nonsense. Most responses have been pretty useless, all motivated by
library hatred. Get a life.
> PS: I just saw Kenneth Tilton's reply about the unnecessary XHR
> requests. Performance is "mission-critical" for him, and the solution to
> the problem is to close your eyes (don't look at the requests)? Priceless.
The rice is on time and the challenge (not too hard) is knowing what to
work on first. Performance is outstanding and you want me to work on
that now? Priceless.
kt
Kenneth Tilton
> On 2 juil, 16:35, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I reach up to the fourth row of my keyboard and type the digit without
>> using any modifier keys.
>>
>> Are you using a cell phone to do Algebra? That is so cool!
> No I just use a french keyboard on my laptop.
>
>>> Then, you'll need to press the shift key. Let's say you press shift
>>> key one second, you have sent 20 XHR if keyrepeat is set to 20 on your
>>> OS.
>> Oh, that. If you turn off your XHR viewer do you notice a problem? Does
>> your ISP charge you per XHR? Why are you watching XHRs? Are you just
>> looking for a reason to get annoyed?
> My ISP does not charge me per XHR. I'm watching XHRs because I'm a
> developer too. Actually, if you didn't include firebug lite in your
> site, I'm not sure I would have opened my developer debug tool.
I should prolly take FireBug and all the debogging logging out next time.
>
>> I can prolly avoid that by watching for key-up and key-down events and
>> then keeping track internally (which is how my app works when talking to
>> tcl/tk). Hmm, maybe I can Just Filter Them on the client--I think the
>> modifiers state comes along with the actual key event.
> Maybe.
>
>> Note that this is not an exercise in making comp.lang.javascript happy,
>> this is an exercise in improving math proficiency by moving a
>> little-known desktop application for Windows to the Web. It seems quite
>> fast to me, and the only people who say it is slow also turn out to be
>> library haters whose reports cannot be reproduced. Plonk.
> My name is Gildas, not comp.lang.javascript and it's the first time I
> post here. So, I don't think I'm known as a "library hater".
OK. But you are actually annoyed by meaningless XHRs? I am reminded of
someone who complained that my desktop app was 40mb. When asked, he said
it had taken twenty seconds to download. And the problem is?
So you are right, people get bothered quite a bit by what I call
"machine empathy". They imagine themselves running back and forth 3000
miles carrying envelopes with XHRs inside and become outraged. Um, no,
as far as I can tell it is not worth addressing just yet, though
certainly at some point it should be addressed if only because it is
indeed unnecessary.
Thanks for the well-meant report.
> BTW, the alt key does not seem to work (maybe a french laptop keyboard
> issue) so I'm unable to type the last formula in the tutorial.
Thanks again for the report, but to anyone out there, please relax on
the bug reports. I have prominently announced that the thing is known to
be broken and incomplete and is being shared only for what does work
(which will expand in Algebra tutorial functionality before anything
else, except for tree bugs that make the tutorial forest impossible to see).
Gregor Kofler
Kenneth Tilton
> Am 2010-07-02 10:28, Kenneth Tilton meinte:
>
> [whining snipped]
>
> Pathetic.
>
>
You yobbos really can't stand it when someone stands up to you.
Face it, you are finished, your hand-crafted html skills are obsolete.
Learn qooxdoo or Dojo fast, the workd is passing you by.
hth, kt
Kenneth Tilton
> Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> It seems quite fast to me, and the only people who say it is slow also
>> turn out to be library haters whose reports cannot be
>> reproduced.
>
> I'm reading this in comp.lang.lisp, and have no opinion on js libraries,
> or indeed js at all. I tried your site the other day, and found it
> painfully slow to load. This was at work, where we have a 100Mbit pipe
> to the relevant transit provider, but I'm located in Europe, so the
> latency might be a bit worse than in NYC.
A bit worse than in NYC would be 5s instead of the 4s I get.
>
> I didn't time it, but I managed to switch to another virtual desktop,
> read a mail, and switch back before the page rendered.
What's your speakeasy.net timing to DC?
Is that a 32-bit computer? Tho my old XP does fine.
> It popped up a
> firebug console with lots of scary-looking messages that I ignored.
You did the right thing.
> Typing was bearable, but only just, there was a quite noticable lag
> before anything rendered.
I see none, no matter how fast I type. On any computer or browser except
Conquerer and Opera (but ISTR the latter not doing well with those
logging messages I left behind.
> I sometimes had trouble editing text I wrote,
> and I couln't type < or > at all. I clicked the "solved" button
> prematurely, and got an error message telling me to do more work, but I
> was unable to return to editing the text.
Oh, I thought I fixed that. Maybe it is in the next release.
>
> This was on my normal work PC, an old Ubuntu install, 64 bit Firefox
> 3.0.something.
>
> I tried at home now to see if the slowness was reproducible. "At home"
> means MacOSX, Firefox 3.6.4, 25Mbit net connection. The slowness was
> not reproducible here, because the page failed to render at all. The
> firebug panel appeared, this time without scary messages, but the rest
> of the page was a uniform, boring gray.
The whole application went down tools. I restarted a couple of hours agao.
>
> I know cells is cool and all, but I wasn't exactly blown away by this
> demo, sorry.
You were not demoing Cells.
Gregor Kofler
> You yobbos really can't stand it when someone stands up to you.
>
> Face it, you are finished, your hand-crafted html skills are obsolete.
> Learn qooxdoo or Dojo fast, the workd is passing you by.
>
> hth, kt
Indeed. The incompetence oozing from your "project" and the underlying
library seems utterly threatening. That said, why don't you bugger off
and troll somewhere else?
Gildas
> Thanks for the well-meant report.
You're welcome.
> Thanks again for the report, but to anyone out there, please relax on
> the bug reports.
Ok, I won't report bugs anymore.
Nevertheless, you should maybe warning the user that if he presses a
key more than 10 seconds, he may inadvertently do a DoS.
Peder O. Klingenberg
> What's your speakeasy.net timing to DC?
From home: 9/4 Mbit down/up. I didn't see anywhere on speakeasy.net to
measure latency, but I know from experience that rtt to the US east
coast is usually in the 150-200 ms range.
> Is that a 32-bit computer? Tho my old XP does fine.
I haven't used a 32-bit computer for years. 64-bit Ubuntu at work,
64-bit OSX at home. Though FF on the mac is a 32 bit application.
>> I sometimes had trouble editing text I wrote,
>> and I couln't type < or > at all. I clicked the "solved" button
>> prematurely, and got an error message telling me to do more work, but I
>> was unable to return to editing the text.
>
> Oh, I thought I fixed that. Maybe it is in the next release.
This was a few days ago, as I said. Maybe it was fixed in the
meantime. On second thought, I was a bit imprecise. I think I may have
been able to edit the text, but not to advance to the next step in the
process.
> The whole application went down tools. I restarted a couple of hours agao.
Right. It was back for a moment, but none of the choices on the
freestyle tab did anything, so I never got to editing anything. A
page reload gave me infinite "waiting for teamalgebra.com", and further
reloads gave me server resets or the rather boring empty gray page.
> You were not demoing Cells.
I thought this was about hooking cells up to the js gui stuff? As I
have zero interest in the webgui stuff, I was hoping to get a glimpse of
how cells could drive an application efficiently.
russell...@yahoo.com
Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:
> If it makes you feel better, performance is indeed a mission-critical
> concern in my mind and I have my eye out for problems. An initial big
> concern was indeed the per-key round-trip. So far I have seen zero
> problems.
If someone is far away from the web server network wise, then they are
going to see dramatically worse responsiveness then you.
-russ
Kenneth Tilton
Troll? With reviews like this?
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com/fan_mail.html
From real teachers in real classrooms? And you call me a troll? I think
you just called yourself <your epithet here>.
Meanwhile, your widgets look nice. (Really!) You have about six. Here is
qooxdoo: http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/demobrowser/#
See the problem?
I suspect you also do not have a complete application framework. Please
get in touch when you do, you do nice stuff.
Kenneth Tilton
> Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> What's your speakeasy.net timing to DC?
>
> From home: 9/4 Mbit down/up. I didn't see anywhere on speakeasy.net to
> measure latency, but I know from experience that rtt to the US east
> coast is usually in the 150-200 ms range.
>
>> Is that a 32-bit computer? Tho my old XP does fine.
>
> I haven't used a 32-bit computer for years. 64-bit Ubuntu at work,
> 64-bit OSX at home. Though FF on the mac is a 32 bit application.
Well, it sounds like you are getting one minute where I am getting 4s
and our environments are exactly the same.
My thinking is that we can get one minute because of some issue
somewhere but we cannot get 4s by accident, not reliably and repeatedly
on many browsers and many OSes, so I am not worrying about this just yet.
>
>>> I sometimes had trouble editing text I wrote,
>>> and I couln't type < or > at all.
Ah, that was definitely the old version.
> I clicked the "solved" button
>>> prematurely, and got an error message telling me to do more work, but I
>>> was unable to return to editing the text.
>> Oh, I thought I fixed that. Maybe it is in the next release.
>
> This was a few days ago, as I said. Maybe it was fixed in the
> meantime. On second thought, I was a bit imprecise. I think I may have
> been able to edit the text, but not to advance to the next step in the
> process.
Hmmm, I do think I pushed the new version in the past 2-3 days. The old
version definitely did not let me resume work after I had mistakenly
said I had reached the answer.
>
>> The whole application went down tools. I restarted a couple of hours agao.
>
> Right. It was back for a moment, but none of the choices on the
> freestyle tab did anything, so I never got to editing anything.
Did you try clicking "OK"?
> A
> page reload gave me infinite "waiting for teamalgebra.com", and further
> reloads gave me server resets or the rather boring empty gray page.
How recently? I restarted the server/app a few hours agao and it is
still up and responding, no backtrace in sight.
>
>> You were not demoing Cells.
>
> I thought this was about hooking cells up to the js gui stuff? As I
> have zero interest in the webgui stuff, I was hoping to get a glimpse of
> how cells could drive an application efficiently.
You need the source for RoboCells, the application that does nothing but
talk to a soccer server over a socket. Pure Cells (plus football).
Kenneth Tilton
> Peder O. Klingenberg wrote:
>> I thought this was about hooking cells up to the js gui stuff? As I
>> have zero interest in the webgui stuff, I was hoping to get a glimpse of
>> how cells could drive an application efficiently.
Dude, just work from first principles. Cells would let me specify:
(make-instance 'thing-1 :d (the-formula (if a b c))
(if a b c) being the rule.
Dependencies are decided dynamically each time a rule runs, so if a is
true there is no dependency on c (in the cells world or in the real
world). Thus if c changes there is no real-world reason to run this
rule. If a goes to false there will be no dependency on b and vice versa.
The beauty is there is no explicit declaration of dependency by the
hard-working programmer -- we just write code naturally and efficient
recalculation results. In the face of change, the system updates that
absolute minimum of state.
But! I get a kick out of the fact that this breaks that efficiency:
(let ((x (based-on b))
(y (based-on c)))
(if a x y))
...because b and c are always read and reading something is used to
denote dependency. ie, Somehow Cells punishes bad code (why calculate
both x and y before knowing which will be needed?). When things like
that emerge I know I have tapped into fundamental soundness: ie, we
should have been programming like this from day one.
kt
Kenneth Tilton
> Gregor Kofler wrote:
>> Am 2010-07-02 20:55, Kenneth Tilton meinte:
>>
>>> You yobbos really can't stand it when someone stands up to you.
>>>
>>> Face it, you are finished, your hand-crafted html skills are obsolete.
>>> Learn qooxdoo or Dojo fast, the workd is passing you by.
>>>
>>> hth, kt
>>
>> Indeed. The incompetence oozing from your "project" and the underlying
>> library seems utterly threatening. That said, why don't you bugger off
>> and troll somewhere else?
>
> Troll? With reviews like this?
>
> http://www.stuckonalgebra.com/fan_mail.html
>
> From real teachers in real classrooms? And you call me a troll? I think
> you just called yourself <your epithet here>.
btw, what troll killfiles his antagonists? If I am still flaming someone
it means they are making interesting points, like the one about XHR
requests per keystroke.
Your web site was too pretty for me to kill you, tho.
Kenneth Tilton
> Peder O. Klingenberg wrote:
>> Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> What's your speakeasy.net timing to DC?
>>
>> From home: 9/4 Mbit down/up. I didn't see anywhere on speakeasy.net to
>> measure latency, but I know from experience that rtt to the US east
>> coast is usually in the 150-200 ms range.
>>
>>> Is that a 32-bit computer? Tho my old XP does fine.
>>
>> I haven't used a 32-bit computer for years. 64-bit Ubuntu at work,
>> 64-bit OSX at home. Though FF on the mac is a 32 bit application.
>
> Well, it sounds like you are getting one minute where I am getting 4s
> and our environments are exactly the same.
>
> My thinking is that we can get one minute because of some issue
> somewhere but we cannot get 4s by accident, not reliably and repeatedly
> on many browsers and many OSes, so I am not worrying about this just yet.
Hmmm. This would not affect the initial load because they are brought
over one character at a time, but unless one has installed TeX fonts:
http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsmath/download/jsMath-fonts.html
...jsMath falls back on image fonts. I /do/ have the TeX fonts installed
(and I had failed to provide all the image fonts where jsMath could find
them, which is why you did not see > and < when I was seeing them) so
that would explain at least different typing speed. A little. As I said,
jsMath brings characters over one at a time on demand.
kt
Antony
> Imho, JS libraries for "RIAs" are complete bullshit. They basically
> rewrite everything down to the layout manager, not leveraging the
> browser at all...
The part about layout manager. I haven't done much CSS, every time I saw
the tricks needed to create a simple column layout I gave up (I had the
luxury mostly cause I wasn't responsible for the UI).
On one hand I have forever heard don't use tables, use divs and css,
on the other hand one needs disproportionate effort doing the same thing
using divs and css. And then it is usually not flexible if you wnat add
a couple of more columns.
Then there is span which seems to be utterly useless cause you can't put
any block elements in it. People talk about content and representation
separation, yet div and span are tied to visuals cause one says 'block'
and allows certain DOM strcuture and the other does not.
AFAIK there isn't a layout manager built into a web browser from the web
developer point of view.
What should one do if one needs a RIA and it has to be web based
Are we saying HTML+CSS+Javascript only RIA solution is still way off
Does HTML5 change anything above.
Is there any popular book for managing layouts using HTML/CSS/Javascript
(unlike common lisp, this web stuff is way too popular, means way too
much effort to find the good stuff out of the mountain of things google
brings up)
-Antony
Peder O. Klingenberg
> Did you try clicking "OK"?
Of course. Repeatedly. Nothing happened.
> How recently? I restarted the server/app a few hours agao and it is
> still up and responding, no backtrace in sight.
As in while as I was typing the last message. Check the date header and
subtract up to a minute.
Tried again just now, with much better results. I can edit just fine.
The initial rendering of the page was a bit messy as the bits arranged
themselves and not exactly blazing fast, but no slower than some
of the more ad-riddled newspaper sites I visit from time to time.
> You need the source for RoboCells, the application that does nothing
> but talk to a soccer server over a socket. Pure Cells (plus football).
Yes, probably, but then I also need to get hold of some round tuits.
They're in short supply. It seemed much easier to just click around on
a website. :)
...Peder...
--
Sløv uten dop.
HVS
> The part about layout manager. I haven't done much CSS, every time I saw
> the tricks needed to create a simple column layout I gave up (I had the
> luxury mostly cause I wasn't responsible for the UI).
>
> On one hand I have forever heard don't use tables, use divs and css,
> on the other hand one needs disproportionate effort doing the same thing
> using divs and css. And then it is usually not flexible if you wnat add
> a couple of more columns.
>
> Then there is span which seems to be utterly useless cause you can't put
> any block elements in it. People talk about content and representation
> separation, yet div and span are tied to visuals cause one says 'block'
> and allows certain DOM strcuture and the other does not.
>
> AFAIK there isn't a layout manager built into a web browser from the web
> developer point of view.
>
> What should one do if one needs a RIA and it has to be web based
>
> Are we saying HTML+CSS+Javascript only RIA solution is still way off
>
> Does HTML5 change anything above.
>
> Is there any popular book for managing layouts using HTML/CSS/Javascript
> (unlike common lisp, this web stuff is way too popular, means way too
> much effort to find the good stuff out of the mountain of things google
> brings up)
>
>
> -Antony
>
As someone who works on web applications on a day-to-day basis, I agree
with your assessment of the tables vs. divs/css model.
For enterprise-level web applications, the company I work at uses Ext JS
(http://www.sencha.com/products/js/) which, once you understand the
model, allows you to layout fairly robust (and heavy) web applications.
It is not a "light" framework, though, and also requires quite a bit of
work to customize the look and feel. It does, however, allow you to
avoid a lot of the annoying CSS layout issues that you mention.
CSS3 allows for better control of layout than previous versions. For
example: http://ejohn.org/blog/css3-template-layout/
/Hans
Kenneth Tilton
Oh, sorry, I made the mistake of taking you seriously! Hence the
detailed response. My bad. Won't happen again.
Mario S. Mommer
Hi,
Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:
> Thanks again for the report, but to anyone out there, please relax on
> the bug reports. I have prominently announced that the thing is known
> to be broken and incomplete and is being shared only for what does
> work (which will expand in Algebra tutorial functionality before
> anything else, except for tree bugs that make the tutorial forest
> impossible to see).
Kenny, that kind of thing very rarely, if at all, works. If you publish
an unfinished prototype with a ten megawatt lightsign of a disclaimer,
people will still complain about how buggy it is. No idea why.
Same thing with text. If you send someone an unfinished text, clearly
saying it is just an early draft, asking to just check if the concept
has half a chance of going somewhere, you'll get even the spelling
corrected 95% of the time.
So, good luck with this. But please try not to insult all the nice folks
that have given you feedback.
Now feedback on the algebra app: I'm usually somewhat weary of telling
kids that maths is easy, because that does not correspond to what their
experience with it will be. After a while, when they don't get it, they
not only feel frustrated, but also stupid (because you claimed it was
/soooo/ easy, remember?). In my experience, an important part of the
difference between people who do better in math and those who do not do
that good is the level of tolerance to frustration.
Regards,
Mario.
Kenneth Tilton
> Hi,
>
> Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Thanks again for the report, but to anyone out there, please relax on
>> the bug reports. I have prominently announced that the thing is known
>> to be broken and incomplete and is being shared only for what does
>> work (which will expand in Algebra tutorial functionality before
>> anything else, except for tree bugs that make the tutorial forest
>> impossible to see).
>
> Kenny, that kind of thing very rarely, if at all, works. If you publish
> an unfinished prototype with a ten megawatt lightsign of a disclaimer,
> people will still complain about how buggy it is. No idea why.
Human nature. I would do the same! It is impossible to look at something
broken and not point it out.
>
> Same thing with text. If you send someone an unfinished text, clearly
> saying it is just an early draft, asking to just check if the concept
> has half a chance of going somewhere, you'll get even the spelling
> corrected 95% of the time.
>
> So, good luck with this. But please try not to insult all the nice folks
> that have given you feedback.
You are confused. I have had a couple of perfectly pleasant exchanges
with people offering bug reports by email and I thanked them and
reassured them they could relax on that, tho there was at least one case
where something I thought worked did not (because I had TeX fonts
installed and did not notice I had cocked up the fallback image fonts).
Other stuff as well, I think.
The flaming you are seeing is me making life miserable for the js
library haters, who yell about anything they can because things like
qooxdoo do work. We have had fun before in c.l.js when I made the
mistake of coming here looking for help and got attacked because I was
using jsQuery (my first try, on an unrelated project).
Can you imagine someone coming to c.l.lisp asking for help with ASDF or
Slime and being attacked for using.... oops.
>
> Now feedback on the algebra app: I'm usually somewhat weary of telling
> kids that maths is easy, because that does not correspond to what their
> experience with it will be. After a while, when they don't get it, they
> not only feel frustrated, but also stupid (because you claimed it was
> /soooo/ easy, remember?). In my experience, an important part of the
> difference between people who do better in math and those who do not do
> that good is the level of tolerance to frustration.
I agree that forewarned is forearmed, but in what we USians call
"Algebra I" their experience is a function of the process, not the
content. I explained it here: http://www.stuckonalgebra.com , tho it
sounds like you read that.
That is not me talking, that is what we learned when kids got exposed to
the software: as long as they get immediate feedback the math anxiety
goes away and they get quality practice (vs doing problems with no
feedback so they do not learn what is right and what is wrong -- no,
having a paper corrected the next day is not feedback, that is too
late). But we are laying teachers off, not hiring them, so there is just
no way the delivery model my software supports can be achieved without
automation.
The story from Margaret Lekse came as a surprise to me: failing students
used the software for a short time and not only did better but caught up
with the other kids. It seems a psychological hump got surpassed, after
which kids Just Got It(tm). Which is why I will have a (very small)
one-time fee, not charge by the month. :)
kt
--
RobG
> Hi,
>
> Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Thanks again for the report, but to anyone out there, please relax on
> > the bug reports. I have prominently announced that the thing is known
> > to be broken and incomplete and is being shared only for what does
> > work (which will expand in Algebra tutorial functionality before
> > anything else, except for tree bugs that make the tutorial forest
> > impossible to see).
>
> Kenny, that kind of thing very rarely, if at all, works. If you publish
> an unfinished prototype with a ten megawatt lightsign of a disclaimer,
> people will still complain about how buggy it is. No idea why.
The complaints here were specific issues related to the implementation
as that is what is on topic here. To summarise some of the more
important ones:
1. Very large download size, over 1MB that takes anywhere from 10 to
30 seconds and may leave the application dysfunctional.
2. Lack of built-in functionality like positioning the cursor with the
mouse, delete key, cut and paste, and so on. This functionality has to
be *removed* by application, it is built into the browser and so
should be available in any browser-based application.
3. Pressing keys quickly (particularly the tab key) can send the
application into an unresponsive state
4. Excessive number of HTTP requests
The tutorial itself was (as far as I could tell) completely
dysfunctional so it's impossible to make any bug reports other than
"it's dysfunctional". If the OP wants comments on the actual tutorial,
such as whether it simplifies or solves correctly, then a group
dedicated to teaching algebra would be suitable.
> Same thing with text. If you send someone an unfinished text, clearly
> saying it is just an early draft, asking to just check if the concept
> has half a chance of going somewhere, you'll get even the spelling
> corrected 95% of the time.
The link was posted without any notification about what should or
should not work, so how should those here have known what to expect?
What is written here will survive for a very long time, so it is
important to provide context as to what does and doesn't work now.
For example, have a look at the following exchange:
|> Sometimes it gets stuck and just
|> stops loading in a dysfunctional state and a reload is required to
get
|> it to "work".
|
| No shit, Einstein.
I would expect such failure to be important as it seems to be related
to the slow loading issue, clearly the OP decided it wasn't. Also:
|> Freestyle section:
|> Seems dysfunctional and very slow. Selecting "Simplify" and
entering:
|> y = 2x + 3x
|
|(a) Another choice was solve. Duh.
I tried solve but it didn't work either, so I reported that (and got
no response about what it should do or how to make it work, if indeed
it did). If someone is to read the above some time in the future when
perpahs the entire application is working, they may not understand
that functionality did not work now if it isn't clearly stated. These
reports aren't just for the OP's benefit.
> So, good luck with this. But please try not to insult all the nice folks
> that have given you feedback.
He posted here to bait those reading this group, whether he got any
useful feedback appears to be irrelevant to him. He has stopped
getting responses because it just feeds the troll.
> Now feedback on the algebra app: I'm usually somewhat weary of telling
> kids that maths is easy, because that does not correspond to what their
> experience with it will be. After a while, when they don't get it, they
> not only feel frustrated, but also stupid (because you claimed it was
> /soooo/ easy, remember?). In my experience, an important part of the
> difference between people who do better in math and those who do not do
> that good is the level of tolerance to frustration.
And the quality of the education.
--
Rob
Kenneth Tilton
Oh, no you just made it to the first screen. Forgot I had put that
there. That is inside joke for c.l.l'ers who right recall one of us
responding once to a nooby whining about some challenge with "Lisp is
hard! Let's go shopping." which I subsequently learned was first said by
a "Talking Barbie" doll about math.
Was that as far as your review got? :)
Try again: http://teamalgebra.com/ and try this:
Solve
OK
3x-6=12
Return
3x/3-6/3=12/3
Return
(a) wasn't it fun typing that?
(b) what do you think the software will say given the tortured approach
to the solution? Correct or incorrect?
btw, anyone mindlessly banging away at the tab key foaming at the mouth
screaming "dysfunctional!" must not understand much about software: the
site may be a train wreck, but it presents a one-of-a-kind wysiwyg math
editor as well as a one-of-a-kind automated tutor able to assess
intermediate steps in a problem.
I think a couple of things must be functional. :)
kt
ps. If I'm a troll, we need more trolls. k
--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
Stefan Weiss
> Try again: http://teamalgebra.com/ and try this:
>
> Solve
> OK
> 3x-6=12
> Return
> 3x/3-6/3=12/3
> Return
>
> (a) wasn't it fun typing that?
> (b) what do you think the software will say given the tortured approach
> to the solution? Correct or incorrect?
Are you genuinely interested in feedback, or are "yes" and "correct" the
only answers you'll accept? If you think you can't learn anything from
critical feedback, please feel free to ignore the rest of this message.
(a) Was it fun to type it?
Not really. There was a quite noticeable lag here (25mbps connection,
central Europe, reasonably fast computer, FF3.0). I don't have the TeX
fonts installed, which is probably also the case for ~99% of your
prospective buyers. You may want to test your application without those
fonts on your system.
"Foaming at the mouth" critic that I am, I also dislike having to
relearn how to enter text. Most of the keys I usually use for this
purpose don't work in your editor (but still cause HTTP requests), like
End, Home, Delete, Shift+Arrow, etc. Copy/paste are right out of the
question, of course. It's also not possible to open a new tab with
Ctrl-T when the editor has focus. It intercepts the key combination and
prints a "t" character instead. Entering "3x/3-x" yields "(3x/3)-x",
whereas entering "3x/x-3" gives "3x/(x-3)". Unexpected, but that may
have been explained in the typing tutorial section, which I was unable
to complete for technical reasons (which you don't want to hear about).
Okay. I guess I can live with that, if it's the price for an interactive
algebra tutor app. But is it *fun* to type like that? Hell no.
On to your second question.
(b) what do I think of the solver's reaction to my input?
Is its reaction "correct" or not? All the solver had to say was
"Hmmmmm....". I don't think a student would consider that very helpful.
Playing some more with this example:
3x-6=12
Return
3x-7=11
Return
The solver's comment for this development is now "Sweet".
I tried the "3x/3 ..." example a few more times with the same input, and
it looks like the responses are randomized. Sometimes you get "Whoa" or
"Unusual" or "That's different" instead of "Hmmmmm...".
Here's a suggestion: these responses may look funny to you, but they're
going to annoy people who are struggling with their task. Don't just say
"Hmmmmm...", tell them what's wrong or unusual. They're kids, not
idiots. Yes, I do work with kids, and I know what I'm talking about.
Just in case I haven't landed in your killfile yet, and you've made it
to this point without throwing me in your imaginary "library haters"
pot, here are a few more observations:
You asked Gildas why he was watching HTTP requests. Your application
automatically includes Firebug Lite, which just about screams "debug me"
to all developers (i.e. most of the people reading c.l.javascript and
c.l.lisp). The only way I can stop Firebug Lite from opening and
obscuring most of the visible area is by activating the real Firebug
extension for your site, and then, yes, I will see the HTTP requests.
Which brings me to another point: with Firebug Lite open, the usable
vertical space in the content area is 70px on my screen, barely enough
to see the huge headline. Even without FB Lite, the area occupied by the
equation editor is about the same size as the app's header area on my
screen. I'm currently on a laptop with an 800px vertical resolution. I
think it's safe to assume that many of your prospective users will also
be on laptops or even netbooks. There's no need to load a 512x512px clip
art image which serves no purpose at all (it's rendered as 200x200px,
but that doesn't exactly improve things). If the header is only used for
this image and "Whoa" comments, make it smaller.
The right mouse button is disabled on your site, which is something I
absolutely, positively loathe. It serves no purpose at all except to
annoy your users. Anybody who really wants to copy/view anything will be
able to do so anyway.
In case you're interested, the application took about 20 seconds to load
with a blank cache, and 15 seconds after the external assets were
cached. I didn't have any gray screens of death this time, but a
"loading" indicator would be a nice touch. Usually, if a page doesn't
load in 10 seconds, I'll close the tab, but I do make exceptions for
more specialized applications like yours.
> btw, anyone mindlessly banging away at the tab key foaming at the mouth
> screaming "dysfunctional!" must not understand much about software: the
> site may be a train wreck, but it presents a one-of-a-kind wysiwyg math
> editor as well as a one-of-a-kind automated tutor able to assess
> intermediate steps in a problem.
I finally found the message about your application being a work in
progress. You have to double click some text (not a link) reading
"Help!!!!!". Did you expect everybody to find and read that?
Your site may be one of a kind. I didn't check. It may be a valuable
product, and I can certainly see how an interactive approach to algebra
can help students. But you're posting to a JavaScript newsgroup here
(and to c.l.lisp for some reason). If you want to promote your product,
this is not the right place; try alt.algebra or alt.algebra.help
instead. You posted a self-described "train wreck" prototype to this
group, so what the hell did you expect? If you did it on purpose to
annoy somebody here, that's classic troll behavior.
> ps. If I'm a troll, we need more trolls. k
No. Nobody needs a troll. Least of all this group (cljs). We've got our
share of difficult characters; there's no need to pour oil into the
fire. Judging from what I've seen on your blog and elsewhere, you look
like a nice enough person, but your recent posts in this group _really_
irritated me. You apparently throw everyone who doesn't agree with you
into your "library haters" group, and completely dismiss any advice
you're given. You've managed to antagonize just about everyone who
replied to you, and most of those people didn't even mention libraries.
When you act like that, the moral high ground you imagine yourself on
just disappears.
You're getting free beta-testing here. Whether you want it or not, when
you post to this group, that's what you get - including all the
not-so-flattering comments about your "train wreck" site. I think the
least you could do is reply in a civil manner to the people who are
actually trying to help you.
I don't even know why I bother to write all this. Maybe because I think
that you could easily post in a friendlier and more diplomatic way, if
you wanted to. All kinds of people read and post here. If you can't get
it into your head that we're not a homogenous "anti-library" cabal, you
should stop posting in this group. Or you could open your mind a little
and listen to what people are actually saying.
stefan
PS. At least your algebra tutor is already better than some of its more
shady online competition. There's a site named algebrahelp.com, which
claims to show all the required steps in solving an equation
(non-interactive). You can click a "sample equation" button and see for
yourself:
--- begin quote -----------------------------------------------------
Sample equation:
2v + 22 + -3v = 2 + -1v + 0v
Reorder the terms:
22 + 2v + -3v = 2 + -1v + 0v
Combine like terms: 2v + -3v = -1v
22 + -1v = 2 + -1v + 0v
Anything times zero is zero.
22 + -1v = 2 + -1v + 0v
Reorder the terms:
22 + -1v = 2 + 0 + -1v
Combine like terms: 2 + 0 = 2
22 + -1v = 2 + -1v
Add 'v' to each side of the equation.
22 + -1v + v = 2 + -1v + v
Combine like terms: -1v + v = 0
22 + 0 = 2 + -1v + v
22 = 2 + -1v + v
Combine like terms: -1v + v = 0
22 = 2 + 0
22 = 2
Solving
22 = 2
Couldn't find a variable to solve for.
This equation is invalid, the left and right sides are not equal,
therefore there is no solution.
--- end quote -------------------------------------------------------
Heh :)
I might have a talent for breaking online algebra tools.
--
stefan
Kenneth Tilton
> On 05/07/10 02:03, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>> Try again: http://teamalgebra.com/ and try this:
>>
>> Solve
>> OK
>> 3x-6=12
>> Return
>> 3x/3-6/3=12/3
>> Return
>>
>> (a) wasn't it fun typing that?
>> (b) what do you think the software will say given the tortured approach
>> to the solution? Correct or incorrect?
>
> Are you genuinely interested in feedback, or are "yes" and "correct" the
> only answers you'll accept? If you think you can't learn anything from
> critical feedback, please feel free to ignore the rest of this message.
>
> (a) Was it fun to type it?
>
> Not really. There was a quite noticeable lag here (25mbps connection,
> central Europe, reasonably fast computer, FF3.0). I don't have the TeX
> fonts installed, which is probably also the case for ~99% of your
> prospective buyers. You may want to test your application without those
> fonts on your system.
I doubt it's the fonts. One character per keystroke? Bah.
I just tried it and it was molasses. One thing I have not bothered with
is tossing data structures as sessions go away. I'll try to rememebr to
bounce the thing every so often until I get around to GC.
And with the next release I'll buy AWS instances in Europe and Cali and
leave them up for a day.
>
> "Foaming at the mouth" critic that I am, I also dislike having to
> relearn how to enter text.
Oh, you have used a math editor before that worked differently? Hint.
> Most of the keys I usually use for this
> purpose don't work in your editor (but still cause HTTP requests), like
> End, Home, Delete, Shift+Arrow, etc. Copy/paste are right out of the
> question, of course.
(a) complaining about the HTTP requests suggests you are coming up to
speed on this thread way too slowly
(b) Copy/paste have indeed been implemented before, and jsMath would
make highlighting the selection area easy, but it's pretty far down on
the triage list given that I doubt students learning Algebra will be
entering work and wanting cut/paste to do it. I might bring back the
"ditto" function that let's you recopy the preceding step when you want
to make one small change while still showing all the work.
> It's also not possible to open a new tab with
> Ctrl-T when the editor has focus. It intercepts the key combination and
> prints a "t" character instead.
I will continue to dissuade folks from being so picayune, but thanks for
the "heads up". And don't blame me: FireFox kept jumping into search
mode when I typed a "/", so I stopped all event bubbling.
> Entering "3x/3-x" yields "(3x/3)-x",
> whereas entering "3x/x-3" gives "3x/(x-3)". Unexpected, but that may
> have been explained in the typing tutorial section, which I was unable
> to complete for technical reasons (which you don't want to hear about).
Yeah, that is problematic. What I had before was a so-called
"quick-fractions" option which one would turn on only if one was working
only with numeric fractions. Otherwise that feature gets in the way.
>
> Okay. I guess I can live with that, if it's the price for an interactive
> algebra tutor app. But is it *fun* to type like that? Hell no.
What math editor do you like better? Hint.
>
> On to your second question.
>
> (b) what do I think of the solver's reaction to my input?
>
> Is its reaction "correct" or not? All the solver had to say was
> "Hmmmmm....". I don't think a student would consider that very helpful.
Kids are smarter than you know. And I am disappointed you did not notice
that the math engine was able to analyze intermediate steps, let alone
even accept them. Most other "tutorial" math software makes you do the
whole problem and type in only the answer.
> Playing some more with this example:
>
> 3x-6=12
> Return
> 3x-7=11
> Return
>
> The solver's comment for this development is now "Sweet".
Yeah, I have to err on the side of /not/ expressing doubt: the last
thing we want to do is be discouraging about good work. Otoh, you have a
good point: "Sweet" is a bit much. I'll add "mute the approval when
borderline ok-but-screwy" to the do-list.
I am also often tempted to take out the feature altogether. It's one of
those deals that seems like a good idea but probably adds little
difference to the educational value, adds a bit of complexity to the
app, and even risks doing more harm than good.
otoh, students /do/ make this kind of mistake and it's worth heading off
if possible. we'll see.
>
> I tried the "3x/3 ..." example a few more times with the same input, and
> it looks like the responses are randomized. Sometimes you get "Whoa" or
> "Unusual" or "That's different" instead of "Hmmmmm...".
> Here's a suggestion: these responses may look funny to you, but they're
> going to annoy people who are struggling with their task. Don't just say
> "Hmmmmm...", tell them what's wrong or unusual. They're kids, not
> idiots. Yes, I do work with kids, and I know what I'm talking about.
You may work with kids, but if you think telling what they did wrong
will make a good educational product you do not know much about how
anyone (kid or not) learns. The learning comes from the head-scratching,
and from figuring things out with the absolute minimum of help. An
upcoming feature will be to let kids clone a problem to see how the
engine solves it, but we will never help them with their problems.
In the Practice Room (coming soon) kids can give up on a problem and see
a solution, but in Homework or Mastery mode (where they earn
certification) never.
>
> Just in case I haven't landed in your killfile yet, and you've made it
> to this point without throwing me in your imaginary "library haters"
> pot, here are a few more observations:
No, I just have you in the "persistently negative and unable to notice
anything positive" pile, but you were in the Humanity pile anyway.
>
> You asked Gildas why he was watching HTTP requests. Your application
> automatically includes Firebug Lite, which just about screams "debug me"
> to all developers (i.e. most of the people reading c.l.javascript and
> c.l.lisp). The only way I can stop Firebug Lite from opening and
> obscuring most of the visible area is by activating the real Firebug
> extension for your site, and then, yes, I will see the HTTP requests.
Oh, calm down. I left that in the index.html by mistake.
The only requests I see sail by are my server application being chatty.
>
> Which brings me to another point: with Firebug Lite open, the usable
> vertical space in the content area is 70px on my screen, barely enough
> to see the huge headline.
Gee, maybe when I take firebug light out that will stop happening.
<sigh> You People have such a great grip on the important.
> Even without FB Lite, the area occupied by the
> equation editor is about the same size as the app's header area on my
> screen. I'm currently on a laptop with an 800px vertical resolution. I
> think it's safe to assume that many of your prospective users will also
> be on laptops or even netbooks. There's no need to load a 512x512px clip
> art image which serves no purpose at all (it's rendered as 200x200px,
> but that doesn't exactly improve things). If the header is only used for
> this image and "Whoa" comments, make it smaller.
Hmmm, even being fully aware that there was no need to pore over the
thing with a magnifying glass, wow, that is what you are doing. Cool!
>
> The right mouse button is disabled on your site, which is something I
> absolutely, positively loathe. It serves no purpose at all except to
> annoy your users.
Someone needs an anger management refresher.
> Anybody who really wants to copy/view anything will be
> able to do so anyway.
Also a bit paranoid. There was no intent behind that. I might be
inadvertently overusing the "prevent default" thing. See above on how
FireFox made me do it.
>
> In case you're interested, the application took about 20 seconds to load
> with a blank cache, and 15 seconds after the external assets were
> cached. I didn't have any gray screens of death this time, but a
> "loading" indicator would be a nice touch. Usually, if a page doesn't
> load in 10 seconds, I'll close the tab, but I do make exceptions for
> more specialized applications like yours.
Yeah, I'll put up a dancing bear animated GIF while it loads. I had one
in there but it was loading so fast for me it never actually appeared so
I yanked it.
>
>> btw, anyone mindlessly banging away at the tab key foaming at the mouth
>> screaming "dysfunctional!" must not understand much about software: the
>> site may be a train wreck, but it presents a one-of-a-kind wysiwyg math
>> editor as well as a one-of-a-kind automated tutor able to assess
>> intermediate steps in a problem.
>
> I finally found the message about your application being a work in
> progress. You have to double click some text (not a link) reading
> "Help!!!!!". Did you expect everybody to find and read that?
No. Most of the disclaimers are in the emails announcing the site. The
one on the typing tab is more prominent, and the welcome page has it
prominently. I just arrange for the newest tab to appear first.
>
> Your site may be one of a kind. I didn't check.
Then I can imagine you with the first Mac in 1984 complaining that there
was no hard drive. That's OK, I am here talking about qooxdoo and
qooxlisp, but surprisingly none of the JS and Lisp programmers want to
talk about that. I suppose this has to do with none of you doing
anything but surf Usenet looking for parades to rain on.
qooxlisp: http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/qooxlisp/
qooxdoo: http://qooxdoo.org/
> It may be a valuable
> product, and I can certainly see how an interactive approach to algebra
> can help students. But you're posting to a JavaScript newsgroup here
> (and to c.l.lisp for some reason).
Dude, it is a Lisp application. Even the JS gets sent over bit by bit.
As for the c.l.js purpose: the subject is not really algebra, it is to
show by example a great way to deliver RIAs using at least qooxdoo and
at best qooxlisp, a way to program RIAs with a serious language (unlike JS).
Now I realize programming the web is not something the loudmouths around
here do, but I am sure many lurkers would benefit from discovering qooxdoo.
btw, I learned about that splendid JS project on c.l.lisp. I'll go back
now and yell at the guy for talking about JS in a Lisp group. <sigh>
> If you want to promote your product,
> this is not the right place; try alt.algebra or alt.algebra.help
> instead.
Have the moderator of this group tell me that. Hint.
Besides, the software is not ready for alt.algebra. All we really have
is a successful melding of Lisp and qooxdoo, so these are the only
groups I am spamming.
> You posted a self-described "train wreck" prototype to this
> group, so what the hell did you expect? If you did it on purpose to
> annoy somebody here, that's classic troll behavior.
No, the purpose is sharing about qooxdoo and qooxlisp. I only say I am
doing it to annoy the bullies to annoy the bullies.
The only reason we ended up talking about algebra is because one of the
bullies dragged my sig into the flamewar, then another tried to say I
was just a troll so I decided to point out what I had produced in the
way of real work.
Thanks for the time you spent on the feedback.
kt
Stefan Weiss
> Stefan Weiss wrote:
>> Even without FB Lite, the area occupied by the
>> equation editor is about the same size as the app's header area on my
>> screen. I'm currently on a laptop with an 800px vertical resolution. I
>> think it's safe to assume that many of your prospective users will also
>> be on laptops or even netbooks. There's no need to load a 512x512px clip
>> art image which serves no purpose at all (it's rendered as 200x200px,
>> but that doesn't exactly improve things). If the header is only used for
>> this image and "Whoa" comments, make it smaller.
>
> Hmmm, even being fully aware that there was no need to pore over the
> thing with a magnifying glass, wow, that is what you are doing. Cool!
I noticed a problem with your layout and suggested an improvement. If
you think the best way to handle this is a sarcastic reply, I hope
you'll hire somebody else to do customer support. I won't make the
mistake of commenting on your application again.
>> The right mouse button is disabled on your site, which is something I
>> absolutely, positively loathe. It serves no purpose at all except to
>> annoy your users.
>
> Someone needs an anger management refresher.
>
>> Anybody who really wants to copy/view anything will be
>> able to do so anyway.
>
> Also a bit paranoid. There was no intent behind that. I might be
> inadvertently overusing the "prevent default" thing. See above on how
> FireFox made me do it.
Then it's an irritating bug instead of an intentional nuisance. The
global "prevent default thing" you have going at the moment is not the
right way to deal with your problem in Firefox. But that has nothing to
do with Qooxdoo or Qooxlisp, so you won't want to hear about it, and
I'll save myself the time.
> I am here talking about qooxdoo and
> qooxlisp, but surprisingly none of the JS and Lisp programmers want to
> talk about that. I suppose this has to do with none of you doing
> anything but surf Usenet looking for parades to rain on.
...
> Now I realize programming the web is not something the loudmouths around
> here do, but I am sure many lurkers would benefit from discovering qooxdoo.
Remember what I said about antagonizing people?
</persistently-negative-unexperienced-loudmouth-out>
--
stefan
Kenneth Tilton
> On 05/07/10 15:12, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>> Stefan Weiss wrote:
>>> Even without FB Lite, the area occupied by the
>>> equation editor is about the same size as the app's header area on my
>>> screen. I'm currently on a laptop with an 800px vertical resolution. I
>>> think it's safe to assume that many of your prospective users will also
>>> be on laptops or even netbooks. There's no need to load a 512x512px clip
>>> art image which serves no purpose at all (it's rendered as 200x200px,
>>> but that doesn't exactly improve things). If the header is only used for
>>> this image and "Whoa" comments, make it smaller.
>> Hmmm, even being fully aware that there was no need to pore over the
>> thing with a magnifying glass, wow, that is what you are doing. Cool!
>
> I noticed a problem with your layout and suggested an improvement.
And you persist in trying to talk about layout issues! When the app has
now been clearly advertised to be a train wreck in progress!! Good for
you. Never say die!
> If
> you think the best way to handle this is a sarcastic reply, I hope
> you'll hire somebody else to do customer support. I won't make the
> mistake of commenting on your application again.
I supported the desktop version back in the 90s, that was a lot of fun.
Folks flipped when they realized they were talking to the author.
They were calling for help with a finished product, and every call went
well, thanks so much for asking.
>
>>> The right mouse button is disabled on your site, which is something I
>>> absolutely, positively loathe. It serves no purpose at all except to
>>> annoy your users.
>> Someone needs an anger management refresher.
>>
>>> Anybody who really wants to copy/view anything will be
>>> able to do so anyway.
>> Also a bit paranoid. There was no intent behind that. I might be
>> inadvertently overusing the "prevent default" thing. See above on how
>> FireFox made me do it.
>
> Then it's an irritating bug instead of an intentional nuisance.
What?! A bug in a train wreck?!
> The
> global "prevent default thing" you have going at the moment is not the
> right way to deal with your problem in Firefox.
Uh, nothing else defeated the beast. I'll just be more selective about
what I do not let bubble.
> Remember what I said about antagonizing people?
Sorry I spoiled the fun for you.
Kenneth Tilton
Not in the mood yet for all that login/security stuff, so if the
site's not up it's because I am not up. :) Not that I pay for bandwidth,
but it did make the site unreachable.
Coincidence, I am sure....PWUAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stefan Weiss
> My first DoS attack!! That is so cool! I've hit the big time, I can see.
> Not in the mood yet for all that login/security stuff, so if the
> site's not up it's because I am not up. :) Not that I pay for bandwidth,
> but it did make the site unreachable.
>
> Coincidence, I am sure....PWUAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
What exactly are you implying here? That somebody sent a botnet against
your site, and that person was me?
You are clearly insane.
--
stefan
Kenneth Tilton
Why would it be you? I was careful to remove all quoted text when
responding to my own post. This is a long thread, I've made a lot of
friends. Could be anyone. It could indeed also be a coincidence. I am
sure there are lots of bots out there looking for trouble.
> You are clearly insane.
This is news?
Erwin Moller
> My first DoS attack!! That is so cool! I've hit the big time, I can see.
> Not in the mood yet for all that login/security stuff, so if the site's
> not up it's because I am not up. :) Not that I pay for bandwidth, but it
> did make the site unreachable.
>
> Coincidence, I am sure....PWUAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> kt
>
You credit yourself too much.
Even though you behaved like a horny baboon in here, I seriously doubt
you triggered anybody in here enough to explain the DDOS attack.
(As if we all have zombienets at our command...)
You mostly got yourself plonked I think...
Erwin Moller
--
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
-- C.A.R. Hoare
Kenneth Tilton
> Kenneth Tilton schreef:
>> My first DoS attack!! That is so cool! I've hit the big time, I can
>> see. Not in the mood yet for all that login/security stuff, so if the
>> site's not up it's because I am not up. :) Not that I pay for
>> bandwidth, but it did make the site unreachable.
>>
>> Coincidence, I am sure....PWUAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> kt
>>
>
> You credit yourself too much.
> Even though you behaved like a horny baboon in here, I seriously doubt
> you triggered anybody in here enough to explain the DDOS attack.
> (As if we all have zombienets at our command...)
>
> You mostly got yourself plonked I think...
>
> Erwin Moller
>
I suppose. I happened to be watching and saw all these key events coming
in on a math widget and they were all "x" so I figured someone was just
tryign to break the app by holding down the x key, and then it turned
into a stream of a hundred x's at a time. It looked specific to the app,
but what do I know? Maybe that is how bots work, look for something that
responds and then pound it. It does sound like fun.
Not a big concern.
Stefan Weiss
> Erwin Moller wrote:
>> You credit yourself too much.
> I suppose. I happened to be watching and saw all these key events coming
> in on a math widget and they were all "x" so I figured someone was just
> tryign to break the app by holding down the x key, and then it turned
> into a stream of a hundred x's at a time. It looked specific to the app,
> but what do I know? Maybe that is how bots work, look for something that
> responds and then pound it. It does sound like fun.
And that after you've been told a number of times that sending HTTP
requests for every single key event is a bad idea. Your application got
itself DoS'ed by a single user who held down the "x" key too long,
possibly even by accident, but you still managed to blame it on the
group. Congratulations.
Your "solution" for the client side was to not look at the requests.
Maybe your server will feel better if you don't watch the logs?
--
stefan
Kenneth Tilton
In summary you and the other JS library haters now find yourselves
sitting around rejoicing in an obviously hard-working programmer running
into occasional difficulties. You might want to retrace your steps to
find where you went wrong. It's prolly the hate, tho.
Erwin Moller
Kenny,
You don't listen/read very well, and thus you won't learn.
That is really your loss, Kenny.
People in here warned you that sending a xmlhttprequest on each
keystroke is a very bad idea (latency issues, but also firing up a
process on the server on each keystroke).
But you can only respond with 'lib haters!'.
When a police officer stops you when you drive your Ferrari at 150
miles/hour through the city centre, you respond: "You all just hate
Ferrari and are jealous I have one!".
I hope not.
But that is how you act in here.
Most people in here responded to your posting without the intention to
irritate you, they wanted to help you, but all you gave back were
insults and wisecracks.
Last thing: Those 'lib haters' as you call them, didn't it occur to you
they maybe have a valid reason for that?
You are so damned convinced you are right that it is impossible for you
to have an objective opinion about the matter.
Erwin Moller
PS: If you respond like a baboon again I promise I will never bother you
again.
Kenneth Tilton
What are you talking about? I saw a stream of a hundred or so x's come
in faster than anyone can type. Then there was a pause and and an
equally fast stream of requests came in, each with a 100 x's and a
hundred something-else's. This went on non-stop for the 20s or so it
took to switch screens and kill the server.
And you think that is the same as a person actually doing Algebra typing
one character at a time?
That is what this group warned me would not work?
oooh-oooh-ah-ahh-eeep!!!!
Gregor Kofler
> What are you talking about? I saw a stream of a hundred or so x's come
> in faster than anyone can type. Then there was a pause and and an
> equally fast stream of requests came in, each with a 100 x's and a
> hundred something-else's. This went on non-stop for the 20s or so it
> took to switch screens and kill the server.
So? This only proves the idiocity of your (or qooxdoo's) approach. One
can execute a DoS attack by simply pressing a key. Cool. Besides: I
suppose neither you nor your "application" is in any way worthwhile for
DoS attacks.
> And you think that is the same as a person actually doing Algebra typing
> one character at a time?
Perhaps he or she left a book on the keyboard...
> That is what this group warned me would not work?
> oooh-oooh-ah-ahh-eeep!!!!
Once more - bugger off.
f'up set.
Gregor
Kenneth Tilton
> Erwin Moller wrote:
>> People in here warned you that sending a xmlhttprequest on each
>> keystroke is a very bad idea (latency issues, but also firing up a
>> process on the server on each keystroke).
What makes you think the server fires up a (lightweight) process on each
request?
And what makes it necessarily a very bad idea if requests and responses
are very small and the server keeps connections open?
So what do folks here recommend in the way of software that simulates
real-world loads, so we can put some numbers on this. I /am/ curious
about how many users one AWS instance will support.
otoh, until I have real students (vs. antagonistic hairless apes) using
the software) I am not sure how I would specify a typical user's pattern
of interaction.
I know you all /want/ me to fail (witness your mistaken glee over either
a DoS attack or a bug in my code that caused The Flight of the Xes), but
if you do not mind I'll optimize according to actual performance, not
imagined. We programmers tend to guess badly on performance.
Kenneth Tilton
fixes. I'll go look now at cloning the AWS instance to Europe and Cali
so you furriners can check performance.
The Training Center shows implicitly the skill set of the underlying
engine. It also let's you create a bunch of random problems and work on
them with less typing.
Next step is to provide the option to see a problem solved for you,
though only in the training center.
Mind you, for you yobbos this is just an ongoing demonstration of
qooxdoo /and/ qooxdoo driven completely from a Lisp server application.
Yes, lot's of glitches and UI annoyances remain. Those get addressed if
they get in the way badly enough or if they are trivial enough to fix.
Interesting punch-line: I am still learning qooxdoo and I am still
learning Interweb programming, and look what I have put together in nine
weeks working part-time.
> Perhaps he or she left a book on the keyboard...
Yeah, but then came the stream of requests each with a hundred x'es and
some a hundred I forget's.
My *nix screen fu is deficient or I would have been able to go back and
look at those, see if they were coming in as recognizable requests,
which would suggest the traffic was observed and then aped. Sorry, I
know primates are a touchy subject for you.
>
>> That is what this group warned me would not work?
>
>> oooh-oooh-ah-ahh-eeep!!!!
>
> Once more - bugger off.
Love your sense of humor. Hint.
Sherm Pendley
> Mind you, for you yobbos
You're just as obnoxious as the library haters you complain about.
*plonk*
sherm--
--
Sherm Pendley <www.shermpendley.com>
<www.camelbones.org>
Cocoa Developer
Kenneth Tilton
> Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Mind you, for you yobbos
>
> You're just as obnoxious as the library haters you complain about.
>
Good lord, is David Mark the only one in here with a sense of humor?
If it makes you feel better the site does not work from my own computer
(tho it works from others I have lying around) and I serious broke
focus-handling with the last change I made before uploading. Now there's
a shock.
David Mark
>
> >> Mind you, for you yobbos
>
> > You're just as obnoxious as the library haters you complain about.
>
> Good lord, is David Mark the only one in here with a sense of humor?
Speak of the devil...
>
> If it makes you feel better the site does not work from my own computer
> (tho it works from others I have lying around) and I serious broke
> focus-handling with the last change I made before uploading. Now there's
> a shock.
>
Summary:
* Kenny doesn't know anything about browser scripting, CSS, HTML or
anything else to do with "InterWeb programming" (and likely never
will).
* Kenny blames all of his problems on the people who warned him in
advance that he would have such problems (e.g. "library haters")
* Kenny now sees everybody as "library haters" because nobody can seem
to make his application work.
* Kenny inexplicably thinks his (appropriately labeled) "train wreck"
is an example of how well KooksDo "works".
* Kenny gets angry when bugs are reported and chastises reporters for
missing some imaginary "big picture" that is apparently only visible
to him.
* Kenny thinks that "advanced" libraries like KooksDo and Cujo are
going to replace HTML/CSS/JS because he's seen demos that look like
(very slow and unwieldy) desktop applications.
In short, Kenny is a clueless, fantasizing, disagreeable greenhorn
(not at all uncommon in the industry). Just ignore him and maybe he
will go away.