* Kenny Tilton | To be precise, the importation from another language is how others | construe what is simply me naming classes and slots as I prefer.
I see that you conveniently elided the balancing point of the sentence in order to get that stupid comment in,which would not be possible if you had kept it. I prefer honest people.
| This is like someone getting attacked for wearing their favorite colors | in a neighborhood where certain street gangs attach unexpected | significance to those colors.
Oh, my God, they killed Kenny!
-- Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
* Harald Hanche-Olsen | Does that also mean I won't have to explicitly get rid of bad ideas? | Just stop referring to them and the garbage collector will silently | remove them?
Yes, with a Common Lisp mind, you do not have to free your mind.
-- Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
Erik Naggum wrote: > * Kenny Tilton > | To be precise, the importation from another language is how others > | construe what is simply me naming classes and slots as I prefer.
> I see that you conveniently elided the balancing point of the sentence in > order to get that stupid comment in,which would not be possible if you > had kept it.
Nonsense, I quoted enough to show the clause with which I was concerned, "you import". the issue was the perhaps (perhaps, I say) idiomatic use of "you" where "one" would also have served. Not knowing if the intent of "you" was me, I simply offered my comment "to be precise", only narrowing the number of interpretations in play, perhaps still to include your meaning. Indeed, the "you import" may not have been intended to mean i was deliberately wearing gang colors on their turf, as in "you (only incidentally) import", one more reason to merely precisify the story while avoiding language of contradiction.
Offense was taken anyway where none was intended and indeed was scurpulously avoided, providing support for those who think NG exchanges should eschew bluntness.
> I prefer honest people.
Not me. They might turn me in.
--
kenny tilton clinisys, inc --------------------------------------------------------------- ""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it."" Elwood P. Dowd
"Kenny Tilton" <ktil...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:3DD2B3F9.4040805@nyc.rr.com... > This is like someone getting attacked for wearing their favorite colors > in a neighborhood where certain street gangs attach unexpected > significance to those colors.
hEY sTUDLYcAP! ((((dEFFUNING wITH uS UH????!)))) (hANDLER-cASE (aNOTHERcHANCE sTUDLYcAP) (cAPITILIZATIONeRROR () (dEATHtO sTUDLYcAP)))
>> CL does not mind. Of course, it ignores my studlification so I can code >> (make-instance 'ixgrid... as well as IXGrid.
> 'Beware the modern mode, my son! > The jaws that bite, the case that catch'
> (sounds of Edward Lear spinning at about 16rpm).
> Twas brillig...,
> :)w
:-) Forget the so-called `modern' mode. This breaks plain olde fashioned *read-table* :invert.
If one must use StudlyCaps and it is desired that the code also works when loaded with *read-table* :invert then always refer to the symbols in their defined case. And of course don't type the built in symbols in uppercase. As I'm yet to come across anyone who prefers to type CL symbol names in uppercase this is no great loss.
>>This is like someone getting attacked for wearing their favorite colors >>in a neighborhood where certain street gangs attach unexpected >>significance to those colors.
> hEY sTUDLYcAP! ((((dEFFUNING wITH uS UH????!)))) > (hANDLER-cASE (aNOTHERcHANCE sTUDLYcAP) > (cAPITILIZATIONeRROR () > (dEATHtO sTUDLYcAP)))
OK, youse guys clearly have snapped. <G>
--
kenny tilton clinisys, inc --------------------------------------------------------------- ""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it."" Elwood P. Dowd
>> CL does not mind. Of course, it ignores my studlification so I can code >> (make-instance 'ixgrid... as well as IXGrid.
> 'Beware the modern mode, my son! > The jaws that bite, the case that catch'
true, true, one recipient of cells found all the places i had gotten sloppy with case. i suppose that's one good argument against studlies, provided one can come up with a good argument /for/ modern mode.
Me, not sure why, but case insensitivity is one of Lisp's nicer features.
--
kenny tilton clinisys, inc --------------------------------------------------------------- ""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it."" Elwood P. Dowd
* ADAM WARNER | AS I'M YET TO COME ACROSS ANYONE WHO PREFERS TO TYPE CL SYMBOL NAMES IN | UPPERCASE THIS IS NO GREAT LOSS.
IT IS ACTUALLY QUITE INTERESTING TO TRY THIS. IN EMACS, C-X C-U WILL VERY HAPPILY GIVE YOUR ENTIRE WORK A QUAINT ARCHAIC FEELING. YOU CAN VIRTUALLY HEAR THE PRINTER CHURN OUT ILLUMINATED PARCHMENT.
I WISH THERE WERE SOME WAY TO MAKE "ALIASES" FOR SYMBOLS IN COMMON LISP SO THAT WE COULD HAVE BOTH UPPER- AND LOWER-CASE SYMBOL NAMES, BUT NO SUCH LUCK.
-- ERIK NAGGUM, OSLO, NORWAY
ACT FROM REASON, AND FAILURE MAKES YOU RETHINK AND STUDY HARDER. ACT FROM FAITH, AND FAILURE MAKES YOU BLAME SOMEONE AND PUSH HARDER.
> true, true, one recipient of cells found all the places i had gotten > sloppy with case. i suppose that's one good argument against studlies, > provided one can come up with a good argument /for/ modern mode.
You don't need to come with any good argument for the so-called modern mode. Instead explain why you want your libraries to break if loaded in the useful ANSI defined :invert mode.
> Me, not sure why, but case insensitivity is one of Lisp's nicer > features.
ANSI CL is not case insensitive. But I understand what you meant to say.
> * ADAM WARNER > | AS I'M YET TO COME ACROSS ANYONE WHO PREFERS TO TYPE CL SYMBOL NAMES > | IN UPPERCASE THIS IS NO GREAT LOSS.
> IT IS ACTUALLY QUITE INTERESTING TO TRY THIS. IN EMACS, C-X C-U WILL > VERY HAPPILY GIVE YOUR ENTIRE WORK A QUAINT ARCHAIC FEELING. YOU CAN > VIRTUALLY HEAR THE PRINTER CHURN OUT ILLUMINATED PARCHMENT.
> I WISH THERE WERE SOME WAY TO MAKE "ALIASES" FOR SYMBOLS IN COMMON > LISP SO THAT WE COULD HAVE BOTH UPPER- AND LOWER-CASE SYMBOL NAMES, > BUT NO SUCH LUCK.
Yes, I know the work you put into trying to achieve this. By the way your `...they killed Kenny' line earlier in this thread really made me LOL.
> By the way your > `...they killed Kenny' line earlier in this thread really made me LOL.
Screw you guys, I'm going home.
--
kenny tilton clinisys, inc --------------------------------------------------------------- ""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it."" Elwood P. Dowd
Kenny Tilton <ktil...@nyc.rr.com> writes: > If Lispers feel justified in getting hysterical over a non-issue like > StudlyCaps vs studly-caps, why are they surprised that The Great > Unwashed have a cow over parentheses?
I honestly think StudlyCaps are inherently more difficult to read. S-expressions, c_style_word_delimiting, and lisp-style-word-delimiting all only took be a very brief time to get used to. StudlyCaps took me a while. Now that I'm used to them, I have no problem, and I write ClassName, slotName, and so on, when I Talk Small.
For StudlyCaps in Lisp, my first instinct is "Don't do it!". My next instinct is, well ... if you want to do it, don't use :invert readtable-case, and make sure that you hyphenate where things would get hard to read alllowercase; because, you might want to write in StudlyCaps, but if I'm using your code, I don't want your function and slot and class names to stick out LikeASoreThumb in my code.
-- /|_ .-----------------------. ,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war | ,--' _,' | Wage class war! | / / `-----------------------' ( -. | | ) | (`-. '--.) `. )----'
* Adam Warner | Yes, I know the work you put into trying to achieve this.
Surprisingly, little, actually. C-x C-u really can do an amazing amount of harm, but C-x C-l is even worse, as you usually do not notice all the upper-case letters that suddenly turned lower-case.
| By the way your `...they killed Kenny' line earlier in this thread really | made me LOL.
He /did/ bring up gang violence... :)
-- Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
Kenny Tilton <ktil...@nyc.rr.com> writes: > To be precise, the importation from another language is how others > construe what is simply me naming classes and slots as I prefer.
The real question is whether or not you code in a professional setting. If you do, being nice to the next guy is professional courtesy and ethics. Lispers' eyes twist in knots when they try to read WeirdSymbols, so you don't use them.
Heck, some of us even get irate at having code which uses non-standard conditional macros, since perfectly good standard ones exist; so it's not just a "don't write Lisp like Java" thing.
One of the primary reason I like to read as much code as I can when entering a new language is to learn the shared customs, so I can learn to write natively, without too much of a foreign accent.
If you're just writing toy code for yourself only, well, then... who cares? By definition, there's no one to get upset. :-)
It might have been better worded as: some people within the community continue to ruthlessly tear pieces out of each other.
Although when reading this ng for a while you can't help but feel that there is a degree of civil war in the Lisp camps. The Common Lisp camp seems to have a firm hold over this particular ng, other Lispers will be tarred and feathered, Schemers will be shot at dawn for their academic tom foolery.
news:3246205936528107@naggum.no... | * Justin Johnson | | As a side note, the other thing that might put people of is seeing how | | the Lisp community continues to ruthlessly tear pieces our of each other. | | The Lisp community? You mean, like the Black community and the Jewish | community and the Muslim community do horrible things that you can fault | every Black, Jew, and Muslim for, respectively (or disrespectively :)? Or | did you have something less sinister in mind? Perhaps you should upgrade | your mind with the concept of "Individual"? With a Common Lisp mind, you | can load patches right into the running image and not have to wait to be | reincarnated. | | -- | Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway | | Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. | Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
"Justin Johnson" <just...@mobiusent.com> writes: > It might have been better worded as: some people within the > community continue to ruthlessly tear pieces out of each other.
Why does it bother you so much what some (other) people do? Sometimes, watching two Lisp gurus beating the shit out each other can be fairly amusing.
> Although when reading this ng for a while you can't help but feel > that there is a degree of civil war in the Lisp camps. The Common > Lisp camp seems to have a firm hold over this particular ng,
That's because this newsgroup /is/ for Common Lisp, among other dialects. There is no comp.lang.lisp.cl. If there were, the situation might be different. As it is, comp.lang.lisp is for all Lisp dialects that do not have their own specialized news groups like Scheme, Dylan and Emacs Lisp.
> other Lispers will be tarred and feathered, Schemers will be shot at > dawn for their academic tom foolery.
Actually, they aren't. There are quite a few ``Schemers´´ regularly posting here, and they are well respected. And all of them understand that Scheme discussions belong to comp.lang.scheme because there is such a thing.
Regards, -- Nils Gösche "Don't ask for whom the <CTRL-G> tolls."
Justin Johnson wrote: > Although when reading this ng for a while you can't help but feel that there > is a degree of civil war in the Lisp camps. The Common Lisp camp seems to > have a firm hold over this particular ng, other Lispers will be tarred and > feathered, Schemers will be shot at dawn for their academic tom foolery.
I think that might a little exaggerated. While those messages that concern languages with their own newsgroups usually get more or less politely pointed to more appropriate places, I don't remember anybody getting upset about occasional talk about Interlisp, Zetalisp, Maclisp, ISLisp etc.
| Why does it bother you so much what some (other) people do?
It doesn't.
| Sometimes, watching two Lisp gurus beating the shit out each other can | be fairly amusing.
I was suggesting that this /might/ put people off. That's all.
-- Justin Johnson
"Nils Goesche" <car...@cartan.de> wrote in message
news:lkd6p8xpwi.fsf@cartan.de... | "Justin Johnson" <just...@mobiusent.com> writes: | | > It might have been better worded as: some people within the | > community continue to ruthlessly tear pieces out of each other. | | Why does it bother you so much what some (other) people do? | Sometimes, watching two Lisp gurus beating the shit out each other can | be fairly amusing. | | > Although when reading this ng for a while you can't help but feel | > that there is a degree of civil war in the Lisp camps. The Common | > Lisp camp seems to have a firm hold over this particular ng, | | That's because this newsgroup /is/ for Common Lisp, among other | dialects. There is no comp.lang.lisp.cl. If there were, the | situation might be different. As it is, comp.lang.lisp is for all | Lisp dialects that do not have their own specialized news groups like | Scheme, Dylan and Emacs Lisp. | | > other Lispers will be tarred and feathered, Schemers will be shot at | > dawn for their academic tom foolery. | | Actually, they aren't. There are quite a few ``Schemers´´ regularly | posting here, and they are well respected. And all of them understand | that Scheme discussions belong to comp.lang.scheme because there is | such a thing. | | Regards, | -- | Nils Gösche | "Don't ask for whom the <CTRL-G> tolls." | | PGP key ID 0x0655CFA0
Your right. Community is the wrong word. I'm referring to regulars who post here and programmers who share their common passion of Lisp. Lispers?
All I was trying to say was that the nature of some debates on this ng /might/ put people off when first learning Lisp and visiting here.
I'm /not/ advocating that it should be otherwise.
-- Justin Johnson
"Dave Pearson" <davep.n...@davep.org> wrote in message
news:slrnat79nv.990.davep.news@hagbard.davep.org... | * Justin Johnson <just...@mobiusent.com>: | | > It might have been better worded as: some people within the community | > continue to ruthlessly tear pieces out of each other. | | Why not just word it minus "within the community"? I mean, how does any | given reader know who is and isn't "in the community"? | | -- | Dave Pearson: | lbdb.el - LBDB interface. | http://www.davep.org/ | sawfish.el - Sawfish mode. | Emacs: | uptimes.el - Record emacs uptimes. | http://www.davep.org/emacs/ | quickurl.el - Recall lists of URLs.
Justin Johnson wrote: > Point taken. It was an over generalization.
> It might have been better worded as: some people within the community > continue to ruthlessly tear pieces out of each other.
> Although when reading this ng for a while you can't help but feel that there > is a degree of civil war in the Lisp camps. The Common Lisp camp seems to > have a firm hold over this particular ng, ...
Well, what good is pulling off the astonishing win of getting divergent Lisp evolutionary branches to rejoin in Common Lisp, and then not treating Common Lisp as the one true Lisp? otoh, I do enjoy discussions of the olden days, and I do not see intolerance for that anywhere.
Maybe you are thinking of cases where people purport to be saying something about "Lisp" and it turns out they are talking pre-CL. That would be a red flag to a CLer, I think.
--
kenny tilton clinisys, inc --------------------------------------------------------------- ""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it."" Elwood P. Dowd
"Justin Johnson" <just...@mobiusent.com> writes: > Point taken. It was an over generalization.
> It might have been better worded as: some people within the community > continue to ruthlessly tear pieces out of each other.
> Although when reading this ng for a while you can't help but feel that there > is a degree of civil war in the Lisp camps. The Common Lisp camp seems to > have a firm hold over this particular ng, other Lispers will be tarred and > feathered, Schemers will be shot at dawn for their academic tom foolery.
no I have seen helpfull and friendly discussions about ISO Lisp. But with that said scheme, elisp and autolisp have there own groups and they generaly get pointed there. If someone say's that scheme/dlyan/perl/fortran is real cool and why do not you Common Lisp people get with the program then it can get a little warm. The thing is that schemers come here a lot and basicly start shit repetedly with "Why do not you do this like scheme", tail recursion comes up a lot.
| If you witnessed an argument in a public house, would it put you off | drinking?
If the argument got to the point where people were shouting loudly and generally being offensive and maybe even started throwing chairs about then I wouldn't be surprised to find people that had just arrived leaving quickly.
-- Justin Johnson
"Dave Pearson" <davep.n...@davep.org> wrote in message
news:slrnat7go6.990.davep.news@hagbard.davep.org... | * Justin Johnson <just...@mobiusent.com>: | | > All I was trying to say was that the nature of some debates on this ng | > /might/ put people off when first learning Lisp and visiting here. | | If you witnessed an argument in a public house, would it put you off | drinking? | | -- | Dave Pearson: | lbdb.el - LBDB interface. | http://www.davep.org/ | sawfish.el - Sawfish mode. | Emacs: | uptimes.el - Record emacs uptimes. | http://www.davep.org/emacs/ | quickurl.el - Recall lists of URLs.
