Richard Fateman wrote: > I'm teaching an upper division class in programming > languages and compiling, in which students are writing > pieces of a compiler using Common Lisp.
Super. More Lispers the merrier. But asking us to behave better is exactly the kind of inflammatory material we do not need. I mean, it's fine that you said it, but only if you meant to start a firefight.
most of all, I think you are wrong statistically, tho "degenerate to ad hominem arguments...rather more often than necessary" is hard to pin down. The /volume/ of degenerate threads once started is impressive, but most (by far) threads run to completion without bloodshed.
i also think the idea of anyone judging the CL community by c.l.l. is a reach, but if they do, sorry, the technical strength and even writing here is wonderful. if someone misses that because of one or two ongoing battlethreads, they probably also think hockey is about fighting.
btw, i have a theory, and you can help. my theory is that the only reason c.l.l. seems feisty is that there relatively few posters (regular or newbie) and that as CL takes over the world in the next couple of years and we get more traffic, the flamewars will get averaged out.
your wave of newbies themselves may produce the result you desire (and, again, which i think we already have: comp.lang.lisp.kindler-gentler
but don't warn them or coach them on etiquette or anything, just send them in and let's see what happens.
>>>And your response was variously: >>> ``i think this is not the right way.'' >>> ``*why* should I try it'' >>> ``i feel it is the *wrong* way'' >>> ``As an experienced lisp coder you should be able to write it in 5"'' >>> ``i think you are not able to'' >>> ``what he [jrm] said is irrelevant''
On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:28:02 -0700, Richard Fateman <fate...@cs.berkeley.edu> said:
[...] > The reason I'm writing here, is that it would also seem > appropriate to direct students to read comp.lang.lisp
I do not agree with that. It may be appropriate to direct them to read the _archives_ of comp.lang.lisp (or a selection thereof), provided that you find their contents beneficial to their education as your students. As to the living group, the future content posted in which is fairly unpredictable, and where active interaction is what matters most, it may at most be appropriate to _inform_ them of its existence (and they may very well know already about it), and let them decide, as responsible adults, whether they will participate in it or not, possibly supplying them with (pointers to) information what Usenet in general and comp.lang.lisp in particular are (again, unless they already know, of course).
The teacher is responsible for directing the students to appropriate resources for learning; but nobody can be responsible for ensuring the appropriateness of the content in an unmoderated newsgroup.
[...] > I am not advocating external censorship, > but just a realization on the part of > the contributors that their messages are perhaps > widely read (and certainly archived for future readers).
This, however, sounds like advocating self-censorship, and in my eyes that is not a good thing either.
aren't you the one who got kicked out by the moderated forum comp.soft-sys.math.mathematica?
aren't you the one who badmouthed The New Kind of Scientist Stephen Wolfram in sci.math in a off-topic kind of way, your foe and your pain, who has touched almost every existing area of science, and quite a bit besides?
look at your sorrow, beseeching civility in comp.lang.lisp but begetting acrimony. And your folly, for being the progenitor of a complete line of off topic confabulation. Dear mister troll, can you reflect this? Imagine your hippie students, upon discovering things for themselves, found that their sensei got rebutted to death in the very forum of their subject, hmmm?
ain't University of California Berkeley renowned for their free speech zeal and fuck America attitude? The breeding ground of political incorrectness and make love not war?
---------- From: Richard Fateman <fate...@cs.berkeley.edu> Organization: University of California, Berkeley Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:28:02 -0700 Subject: who should read comp.lang.lisp? /civility
I'm teaching an upper division class in programming languages and compiling, in which students are writing pieces of a compiler using Common Lisp. The course uses parts of Andrew Appel's Modern Compiler Implementation (the Java version, since students are supposed to know Java as well as Scheme from earlier courses).
I also direct them to various web sites which explain why lisp is appropriate for various tasks, and is especially handy for prototyping language implementations.
The reason I'm writing here, is that it would also seem appropriate to direct students to read comp.lang.lisp to see some informed discussion of various issues related to Common Lisp. However the level of discussion of technical issues seems to degenerate to ad hominem arguments (i.e. personal attacks) rather more often than necessary. While we may have varying tolerances for off topic humor, it seems to me that it does a disservice to people (like my students) who might look at this newsgroup as a resource. Instead they come away with a rather negative impression of the lisp community.
I am not advocating external censorship, but just a realization on the part of the contributors that their messages are perhaps widely read (and certainly archived for future readers).
Quite a number of threads here are serious and valuable discussions, at least for a while, and that makes it tempting to point people this way.
It is in many peoples' nature to try to get in the last word, or the ultimate zinger. Unmoderated newsgroups don't really allow this (i.e. the moron can always respond!). What to do? I think it is possible to be civil even in the face of incivility, ignorance, or malice. Often an adequate and civil response is to not respond at all. I suggest we try to factor such considerations into our participation, with the intention of making the newsgroup useful to a wider audience and perhaps more reflective of what lisp is about. Thanks.
* Wade Humeniuk wrote: > How about a new moderated group them, say comp.lang.lisp.newcomers > or comp.lang.lisp.q&a or maybe comp.lang.lisp.homework? However it > should be pointed out that newcomer's questions should also be > moderated. (sent back to be rephrased/completed or rejected).
In order to do this you need to do two things: (1) find a moderator; and (2) go through the group creation protocol.
(2) is pretty easy to drive, and I'm sure you know how to do it or where to find TFM. I'm mentioning it because I get slightly annoyed by the requests for some new friendlier/better/just-different variant of cll: if someone wants one of these variant groups then they should go through the ritual of formally asking for one and see what happens.
(1) is a sticking point. Even if a moderated group gets created, you need a moderator. If that moderator is `lazy' (in the not-willing-to-do-lots-of-unpaid-work sense), biased or in other ways deficient, then the group will fail. If they are none of these things then the group may still fail, but they will certainly have a hard and thankless task. Who would volunteer for this (not me, not even if you paid me (well, maybe if you paid me *a lot*...)).
Richard Fateman wrote: > While we may have varying tolerances for off topic humor, it seems to > me that it does a disservice to people (like my students) who might > look at this newsgroup as a resource.
Don't send them to usenet without pointing them to the necessary sources of newbie information. It's crucial to get a grasp of how usenet works before starting to participate. This group is not different from any other technical group where the regulars do care about the topic. (Maybe it's different in the higher intellectual level of even the flame wars, but that makes it just more are joy to read.)
I'm mostly a lurker here, but whenever I posted a question, people patiently pointed out my errors and answered in great detail. This is the only newsgroup dealing with a programming language that I read for more than a few weeks. And it's one of the reasons why I still try to become a good Common Lisp programmer even though I'm the only one in my department who uses the language.
> Instead they come away with a rather negative impression of the lisp > community.
It's crucial to give a newsgroup more than just a quick look at the latest threads. That's like watching 15 minutes of a science fiction TV series episode and then complaining that you didn't get why this weird looking alien's feelings are hurt when another one calls him a P'tak.
> I am not advocating external censorship, but just a realization on the > part of the contributors that their messages are perhaps widely read > (and certainly archived for future readers).
So you think anyone seriously using this medium wouldn't know? If it was so easy as to simply be nice and ignore stupidity, abuse, or misinformation, it would be done. Usenet is only words, so only words can rule.
Christopher Browne wrote: > Some people require such a thrashing with the clue stick that they > wouldn't survive; this appears to be one of those situations.
> What to do? I think it is possible to be civil even in the face of > incivility, ignorance, or malice.
Since some posters don't think this is a virtue and can't be persuaded otherwise, the best you can do is to teach this virtue to your students. Lest they learn the wrong attitude.
And instruct them to use a killfile. Yes, really. It's much easier than self-restraint.
But do tell them to come. The only way we get more future contributors is to teach them the value of sharing the knowledge. -- Pekka P. Pirinen Pick your enemies carefully. They're harder to get rid of than friends.
x...@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) writes: > Imagine your hippie students > ain't University of California Berkeley renowned for their free speech > zeal and fuck America attitude? The breeding ground of political > incorrectness and make love not war?
Nota bene, it has been 30 years since 1972.
-- /|_ .-----------------------. ,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war | ,--' _,' | Wage class war! | / / `-----------------------' ( -. | | ) | (`-. '--.) `. )----'
Erik Naggum wrote: > ... > Therefore, it is the dury of every practitioner in a field to hold up a > huge "STOP" sign for these arrogant ignorants and to show them that it > takes /years/ of concerted effort by lots of people to actually improve > on anything at all. Those who come to a newsgroup with people who have a > decade or two of actual experience with an "I have this neat idea", get a > priceless favor for free when they are told it was rejected 30 years ago. > The arrogant snot who has read some Scheme and thinks he gets it, is done > a tremendous favor by being told to go stuff it when he argues against a > feature in Common Lisp. In both cases, people who have their nose broken > by running headlong into a door while in an /inconsequential/ setting > like Usenet are both saved from embarrassing themselves in their first > job, and save their employers the cost of teaching them this lesson.
This is sometimes valid, but newcomers have in fact provided major advances to a range of fields. While existing experts may have an accumulation of knowledge and in some cases even wisdom, often they may also have an accumulation of prejudices and an arrogant unwillingness to consider new ideas.
As the saying goes, "Science advances, funeral by funeral".
But as anyone who has had any role evaluating new ideas will know, most of them are rubbish. For every theory of relativity there are a thousand perpetual motion machines.
Teaching people that they have a lot to learn is useful if they don't alteady know that but it can be done in several ways.
Blankly saying "You are wrong; you are an idiot" may not be optimal.
It would IMO be more useful all around to say, as most people do, something like:
"This question is misconceived because it assumes xxx which is not true, actually yyy is the case; this was tried in xxx and didn't work; see xxx for why this is wrong; look at the newsgroup archives; this is in the FAQ at xxx". If you wish, by all means then insult the person and tell them they have a lot to learn before becoming a zen master.
It might help avoid silly questions if the FAQ were posted to the group regularly. It used to be but isn't any more. Many people might assume that there is no current FAQ, as I did, because of that. See for example Bill Perry's posting on 28 June.
"Tim Bradshaw" <t...@cley.com> wrote in message news:ey38z1er2jj.fsf@cley.com... > (1) is a sticking point. Even if a moderated group gets created, you > need a moderator. If that moderator is `lazy' (in the > not-willing-to-do-lots-of-unpaid-work sense), biased or in other > ways deficient, then the group will fail. If they are none of > these things then the group may still fail, but they will > certainly have a hard and thankless task. Who would volunteer for > this (not me, not even if you paid me (well, maybe if you paid me > *a lot*...)).
Since Richard Fateman wants to send his students, maybe he could create and manage a moderated forum. He could invite participation from c.l.l and then shut it down when the course is finished.
What are the common rules that moderators apply to posts? Is the moderator allowed to edit content?
* Tim Josling | This is sometimes valid, but newcomers have in fact provided major | advances to a range of fields.
Well, duh. Einstein was a newcomer to his field once. That does not mean he was ignorant of the past theories. Quite the opposite is true.
| While existing experts may have an accumulation of knowledge and in some | cases even wisdom, often they may also have an accumulation of prejudices | and an arrogant unwillingness to consider new ideas.
And this affects what? Is your behavior towards more experienced people who help you based on such prejudices?
| Blankly saying "You are wrong; you are an idiot" may not be optimal.
But nobody /does/ that. Could you please try to focus more on reality and less on your fantasy world? Clearly, your emotional responses and that of our more hostile forum member extends far beyond observation and well into a fabricated fantasies. People are /not/ treated harshly until they turn hostile towards people who have tried to help them. Do you think I give all the fantastically evil people who attack me /grounds/ to attack me? If so, I have a choice between feeling insulted or believing you must have cabbage for brains. If you had better observational skills and less willingness to project your fantasy onto reality, you would actually have observed this. But paying attention is obviously too much to demand of those of you who are more than happy to join the fight club.
| If you wish, by all means then insult the person and tell them they have | a lot to learn before becoming a zen master.
This is what actually happens. You apparently value your fantasy world much higher than your observations. Why is this? People do get a few chances to understand but they are given technical replies, not touchy- feely handholding, as befits a technical forum. Some cannot handle this, and go bananas when someone points out that something they believe to be true is actually false. Because of such fantastically hostile idiots as Ray Blaak, Erann Gat, Raffael Cavallaro, and their ilk, some people come to believe that they have a right to assume hostility where there is only cold, hard technical answers to technical issues. If you want somebody to hold you and comfort you while you read news articles that address the topic of your articles in line with the purpose of the forum you read, get a dog, cat, or friendly human being. If you do not feel sufficiently well because nobody took note of your sweet personality, at least do not post hate mail directed at the people who have helped you.
Is this really too much to ask of "newcomers"?
Is paying attention and checking that you what you say is factually correct really too much to ask of you, Tim? Could you please explain what you expect people to do when you repeat lies about them? Do you do this in real life? Do you join lynch mobs and gang up on people you hate in your community and accuse them of heinous crimes they have not committed in order to stir up a frenzy? Is this how you want to live?
-- Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
* Wade Humeniuk | Since Richard Fateman wants to send his students, maybe he could create | and manage a moderated forum. He could invite participation from c.l.l | and then shut it down when the course is finished.
He could also run a moderated news server where he has to approve articles before they are visible to other readers and before the articles posted locally are forwarded to the Net. Various automated tools could be used for this purpose. E.g., if Erann Gat responds to anything I write, that article and all articles with its message-ID in the References header can and should not be made visible to "protected" readers.
| What are the common rules that moderators apply to posts? Is the | moderator allowed to edit content?
Generally, yes. Suitable notes to that effect are usually added.
-- Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no> writes: > Because of such fantastically hostile idiots as Ray Blaak, Erann Gat, > Raffael Cavallaro, and their ilk, some people come to believe that they > have a right to assume hostility where there is only cold, hard technical > answers to technical issues.
We don't assume it. We witness it.
To recap: moron demonstrates their claim to being a moron and attacks you. You go into your "I have been provoked unfairly" mode and go ballistic. That is hostile.
Your creative insults (which are pretty juicy, I must admit), go way overboard what is necessary to chastize the moron. That execessiveness demonstrates your hostility.
It is analogous to having some stupid oaf bump into you on the street and you pulling out a gun and shooting them in response.
-- Cheers, The Rhythm is around me, The Rhythm has control. Ray Blaak The Rhythm is inside me, bl...@telus.net The Rhythm has my soul.
* Tim Josling wrote: > But as anyone who has had any role evaluating new ideas will know, most of > them are rubbish. For every theory of relativity there are a thousand > perpetual motion machines.
In case there is any confusion about relativity and `newcomers', Einstein wasn't. He *was* quite young, but theoretical physicists typically are, but he wasn't some kind of outsider, as the myth often has it.
| To recap: moron demonstrates their claim to being a moron and attacks | you. You go into your "I have been provoked unfairly" mode and go | ballistic. That is hostile.
To "recap" what? Your halucinations?
| Your creative insults (which are pretty juicy, I must admit), go way | overboard what is necessary to chastize the moron. That execessiveness | demonstrates your hostility.
Nothing happened in between, I see.
| It is analogous to having some stupid oaf bump into you on the street and | you pulling out a gun and shooting them in response.
I think it analogous to giving them the one-finger salute, then observing that they ram me repeatedly on purpose, and then I shoot them to avoid being killed. A nutjob like yourself would never understand the intervening events, which you have so eloquently demonstrated above.
/You/ are the problem, Ray Blaak. Without your fucking obnoxious behavior, there would be far less hostility here. However, because you are insane, you actually believe that you are justified in your open hostility against me. You attack me. You are in fact so stark raving mad that you make it my fault that you attack me. This kind of inability to accept responsibility for your own actions is what puts people in hospital wards for the criminally insane in real life.
Shut the fuck up and give this newsgroup a rest. It will quiet down only after you, Erann Gat, and Raffael Cavallaro have quit attacking me. You three are able to keep eachother going with your incredible hatred for weeks on end. And in the name of civility and respect for people and out of concern for how people feel! What about me? What on /earth/ made you shit-for-brains decide that it is OK to attack me the way you do? What kind of justice do you want for your own lives? The kind of blind hatred and lynch mob mentality that plague you guys is extremely strong evidence of serious mental illness and massive maladjustment to society. Which is why you gang up on what you perceive as the authority figure. Fucking retarded children! You should have been aborted when it was still time.
Misbehaving children of your caliber need physical disciplining.
-- Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
"Erik Naggum" <e...@naggum.no> wrote in message news:3242759107536624@naggum.no... > * Wade Humeniuk > | Since Richard Fateman wants to send his students, maybe he could create > | and manage a moderated forum. He could invite participation from c.l.l > | and then shut it down when the course is finished.
> He could also run a moderated news server where he has to approve > articles before they are visible to other readers and before the articles > posted locally are forwarded to the Net. Various automated tools could > be used for this purpose. E.g., if Erann Gat responds to anything I > write, that article and all articles with its message-ID in the References > header can and should not be made visible to "protected" readers.
I really like this option, I think an experiment in censorship would be eye-opening for everybody involved. I am hoping Richard will give it a try.
Tim Bradshaw <t...@cley.com> writes: > In case there is any confusion about relativity and `newcomers', > Einstein wasn't. He *was* quite young, but theoretical physicists > typically are, but he wasn't some kind of outsider, as the myth often > has it.
Oh, sure he was. A spotty academic career, failed to acquire a proper teaching job at the University, finally through influence of friends landed a job in the Swiss patent office.
Five years later he published the amazing three papers (which he was lucky to get published at all) in one volume of Ann.d.Physik.
Received the Nobel (much later) for the one the insiders could understand. Not for relativity theory.
It was another four years before the insiders began to invite him in. By the 1920's he was a leader of the physics community. By the thirties he was pretty much outside, again.
My favorite Einstein quote, 1905, still at the patent office, regarding the rest of the physics establishment:
"[They] are out of [their] depth."
Weber to Einstein ca. 1900: "You are an intelligent young man, Einstein, a very intelligent young man. But you have one major fault -- one cannot tell you anything."
Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no> writes: > Shut the fuck up and give this newsgroup a rest. It will quiet down only > after you, Erann Gat, and Raffael Cavallaro have quit attacking me.
I have been following this group for at least the last four years. There is always some sort of bickering thread that you are involved in.
The last time I recall real quiet was when you took your little leave of absence earlier this year.
You seemed to be doing quite well for a while upon your return. I guess the moron level got to you eventually. Whatever happened to your said practice of writing up ranting responses and *not* posting them?
-- Cheers, The Rhythm is around me, The Rhythm has control. Ray Blaak The Rhythm is inside me, bl...@telus.net The Rhythm has my soul.
Tim Bradshaw wrote: > He *was* quite young, but theoretical > physicists typically are, but he wasn't some kind of > outsider, as the myth often has it.
Actually, I think he was the typical outsider /before/ he published "Zur Elektrodynamik von bewegten Körpern". All his fellow students were given jobs at the university after their exams, but Einstein had to leave.
This changed to some extent when he went to Berlin, but even after that he remained an outsider, now for different reasons. (In WW1, he refused to suport the German side, he did not sign that famous memorandum that soon proved infamous, etc.)
-- J.... B....
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* Ray Blaak | I have been following this group for at least the last four years. There is | always some sort of bickering thread that you are involved in.
Yeah, my mistake. I should call you guys on your tactics much sooner.
Go away, Ray Blaak. This is a forum for Lisp, not for your emotions.
-- Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
