I am trying to learn CL, however do not know if any good commercial applications of CL will run on the operating system I have here. (Apple's version 10.2.3 - so-called "OSX" <operating system ten>)
Not interested in a 'freebie' version, because I anticipate that I will need lots of vendor support with whatever commercial version I buy.
In article <210120030721557716%nos...@iam.invalid>, Mark Conrad wrote: > I am trying to learn CL, however do not know if any good commercial > applications of CL will run on the operating system I have here. > (Apple's version 10.2.3 - so-called "OSX" <operating system ten>)
> Not interested in a 'freebie' version, because I anticipate that I will > need lots of vendor support with whatever commercial version I buy.
Zachary Beane wrote: > In article <210120030721557716%nos...@iam.invalid>, Mark Conrad wrote:
>>I am trying to learn CL, however do not know if any good commercial >>applications of CL will run on the operating system I have here. >>(Apple's version 10.2.3 - so-called "OSX" <operating system ten>)
>>Not interested in a 'freebie' version, because I anticipate that I will >>need lots of vendor support with whatever commercial version I buy.
I am surprised at the reference to Franz at the end of your post :)
I have used MCL in the past and like it. Waiting for the OSX version of MCL to finish beta testing.
Curious if Franz might run from the tsch shell of OSX (the default shell) - bash and a few other Unix shells also come with OSX.
I like the idea of training support that Franz furnishes, and would be tickled to try Franz CL with OSX, if I thought I could install Franz via the Unix command-line shell of OSX.
I have no experience installing apps, compiling them from Unix source code, etc., and don't know if Franz would walk me through the process.
> I am surprised at the reference to Franz at the end of your post :)
Although the term "ACL" is generally ambiguous, and can mean Ansi CL, Mac Allegro CL (MACL, the precursor, I believe, to MCL), or even Access Control List, as well as others, in this context it was almost certainly meant to refer to Allegro CL, from Franz Inc.
> I have used MCL in the past and like it. Waiting for the OSX version > of MCL to finish beta testing.
> Curious if Franz might run from the tsch shell of OSX (the default > shell) - bash and a few other Unix shells also come with OSX.
Yes. I usually use csh, as on all my other unix machines. We view the current MacOSX version of Allegro CL as a Unix style version. Being a Mac aficionado myself, though, I don't consider it to be a true Mac port, because it does not yet interface to the Mac toolkit. However, as a Unix port, it is a complete product. And, modulo X11 bugs, it does interface to various X11 versions that are available.
> I like the idea of training support that Franz furnishes, and would be > tickled to try Franz CL with OSX, if I thought I could install Franz > via the Unix command-line shell of OSX.
You can.
> I have no experience installing apps, compiling them from Unix source > code, etc., and don't know if Franz would walk me through the process.
If you download the Trial version, you're on your own, for the most part. But if you know unix, it should be straightforward.
> > MCL is very likely the way to go, but I did a little task with ACL and > > it worked fine (not GUI though).
> Thanks, I have used MCL in the past and like it.
> > (not GUI though)
> That doesn't bother me. I assume MCL is more or less based on its ACL > heritige, or do I have that wrong
MCL implements (more or less) ANSI Common Lisp. MCL does NOT have anything to do with Allegro CL. Once it was named Macintosh Allegro Common Lisp, but this was not because of technical reasons. MCL or MACL was never based on ACL.
OpenMCL is a nice free version of MCL (without the GUI and IDE).
> I am surprised that Digitool is still in business, given the apparent > inactivity in the MCL forum (usenet)
The MCL mailing list is active. Especially since MCL 5.0b is out. Use the mailing list instead. More infos are on www.digitool.com .
In article <c366f098.0301220617.8880...@posting.google.com>, Rainer
Joswig <jos...@corporate-world.lisp.de> wrote: > The MCL mailing list is active. Especially since MCL 5.0b is out. > Use the mailing list instead. More infos are on www.digitool.com
Thanks, I will ask Digitool if they are tying the new Mac release into the "Mac Toolbox", such that I could port Lisp code over to Mac OSX, creating an executable version of a Lisp program that would run on the newest Mac OSs, like OS 10.2.3 (the present version of "OSX")
I think I am getting a little confused here. Tying MCL into the Mac Toolbox might not necessarily guarantee that I could create a standalone MCL application. I think it would be necessary for Digitool to furnish some sort of specialized compiler, also.
In previous versions of MCL, Digitool did sell versions that allowed one to create standalone applications for _older_ Mac OSs.
In any case, all those concerns are in my distant future, I have to learn <relearn> common-lisp first.
In article <4smvmdov0....@beta.franz.com>, Duane Rettig
<du...@franz.com> wrote: > I usually use csh, as on all my other unix machines. We view > the current MacOSX version of Allegro CL as a Unix style version.
Very good, I can live with that, as I plan to use the Franz Unix version of Common Lisp strictly for my own personal training in Lisp.
> Being a Mac aficionado myself, though, I don't consider it to be a > true Mac port, because it does not yet interface to the Mac toolkit.
That would hurt if I ever decided to port any of the Franz Lisp code over to the Mac, but presently is no concern to me because I will just be using Franz CL strictly as a personal training aid to <relearn> CL.
Mark Conrad <nos...@iam.invalid> writes: > In article <4smvmdov0....@beta.franz.com>, Duane Rettig > <du...@franz.com> wrote:
> > I usually use csh, as on all my other unix machines. We view > > the current MacOSX version of Allegro CL as a Unix style version.
> Very good, I can live with that, as I plan to use the Franz Unix > version of Common Lisp strictly for my own personal training in Lisp.
> > Being a Mac aficionado myself, though, I don't consider it to be a > > true Mac port, because it does not yet interface to the Mac toolkit.
> That would hurt if I ever decided to port any of the Franz Lisp code > over to the Mac, but presently is no concern to me because I will just > be using Franz CL strictly as a personal training aid to <relearn> CL.
I am a little confused here. I assume that by "Franz Lisp" you really mean Allegro CL from Franz, and not the old non-CL Lisp called "Franz Lisp" that used to be distributed with the BSD tape (they are not the same). And if you program in pure CL on Allegro CL, then it should be portable to any future CL offerings we provide, as well as other CLs on the Mac such as MCL.
Just to be clear about the status of MCL and OpenMCL:
-The native Mac OS X version runs under the latest version of Mac OS X (10.2.3), and earlier versions.
- MCL has some high level hooks into the mac toolbox (Carbon, and Core Services, not Cocoa), and tools to let you interface to other stuff yourself, as needed.
-You can create stand alone, double-clickable native Mac OS X applications, which will also automatically be Mac OS 9 native applications (if backward compatibility matters to you). You will have to pay for a redistribution licence if you want to sell/distribute your app. If you need to distribute the compiler with your app (most apps don't call the compiler at runtime - funcall and friends make that largely unnecessary in lisp), there's an additional fee for that.
-Open MCL seems to be taking the X windows approach on one hand, and the Cocoa approach on the other. Cocoa support is primitive but workable now, and one should be able to integrate with Interface Builder in the future (or by writing the necessary code).
In article <aeb7ff58.0301230726.40e2e...@posting.google.com>, Raffael
Cavallaro <raff...@mediaone.net> wrote: > Just to be clear about the status of MCL and OpenMCL...<clipped>...
Thanks for that rundown on MCL.
I think I will wait for the final alpha commercial version of MCL.
It is certainly nice to know that the double-clickable standalone version of CL applications written by the user of MCL will be supported by Digitool, in case I create any worthwhile CL applications in the distant future :)
Mark Conrad wrote: > In article <aeb7ff58.0301230726.40e2e...@posting.google.com>, Raffael > Cavallaro <raff...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>>Just to be clear about the status of MCL and OpenMCL...<clipped>...
> Thanks for that rundown on MCL.
> I think I will wait for the final alpha commercial version of MCL.
I wouldn't - the beta version is considerably cheaper than the final will be, and it includes the upgrade to the final version. Check out http://www.digitool.com/purchase.html for more information.
Pascal
-- Pascal Costanza University of Bonn mailto:costa...@web.de Institute of Computer Science III http://www.pascalcostanza.de Römerstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
In article <4of68yjwa....@beta.franz.com>, Duane Rettig
<du...@franz.com> wrote: > > That would hurt if I ever decided to port any of the Franz Lisp code > > over to the Mac, but presently is no concern to me because I will just > > be using Franz CL strictly as a personal training aid to <relearn> CL.
> I am a little confused here. I assume that by "Franz Lisp" you really > mean Allegro CL from Franz, and not the old non-CL Lisp called > "Franz Lisp" that used to be distributed with the BSD tape (they are > not the same). And if you program in pure CL on Allegro CL, then it > should be portable to any future CL offerings we provide, as well as > other CLs on the Mac such as MCL.
> So why would it hurt?
I did not make it clear what I had in mind, sorry.
I am interested in the latest commercial offering of CL by Franz that will run on Mac's OSX operating system, specifically version 10.2.3 of the Mac OS (the most recent version to date)
If that is not possible, perhaps Franz makes a Unix version that will run on a Mac from the Unix command-line. Apple uses various command-line "shells" so likely one of the shells would be compatable with the Franz release of CL. (assuming Franz tech support could walk me through installing their CL onto the command-line of the Mac OSX, because I am a OSX "newbie" and don't know if I would have enough smarts to install the product)
Naturally, I would prefer that Franz CL run directly on the Mac OSX, instead of having to resort to a command-line install.
I would also like to be able to create double-clickable standalone CL applications if Franz supports that, from the Mac platform. (OSX)
In article <b0rej2$g0...@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>, Pascal Costanza
<costa...@web.de> wrote: > > I think I will wait for the final alpha commercial version of MCL.
> I wouldn't - the beta version is considerably cheaper than the final > will be, and it includes the upgrade to the final version. Check out > http://www.digitool.com/purchase.html for more information.
Wow! - thanks for that info' - I will definately buy the beta version.
> I am interested in the latest commercial offering of CL by Franz that > will run on Mac's OSX operating system, specifically version 10.2.3 of > the Mac OS (the most recent version to date)
I suppose that you could always get the trial version of Allegro CL 6.2 and see if it works for you.
The other alternatives are Digitool's MCL 5.0 (commercial with ide and gui interface) and OpenMCL (open source, command line only).
> Naturally, I would prefer that Franz CL run directly on the Mac OSX, > instead of having to resort to a command-line install.
I believe this is so, but I haven't tried it myself.
> I would also like to be able to create double-clickable standalone CL > applications if Franz supports that, from the Mac platform. (OSX)
Don't know.
-- Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute t...@isi.edu
>> Naturally, I would prefer that Franz CL run directly on the Mac >> OSX, instead of having to resort to a command-line install. >> > > I believe this is so, but I haven't tried it myself. >
I've used the Franz Allegro 6.2 trial version for Mac OS X. It installs via the command line, the way Allegro has always installed on Unix platforms. Once it's installed, you develop with it under emacs and the Franz development environment, same as any Unix platform. The ELI elisp code works with the emacs in the OS X development kit (in a Terminal window), with emacs in the OSX native windowing environment (emacs-on-aqua, or carbonized emacs), or with emacs running in X.
In article <ymi8yx38tm1....@sevak.isi.edu>, Thomas A. Russ
<t...@sevak.isi.edu> wrote: > The other alternatives are Digitool's MCL 5.0 (commercial with ide and > gui interface).....<clipped>.....
I think I will go that route initially, buying the beta version that Digitool is creating for OSX.
Raffael Cavallaro states that buying the beta version is the better bargain:
> ...the beta version is considerably cheaper than the final > will be, and it includes the upgrade to the final version. Check out > http://www.digitool.com/purchase.html for more information.
I will still inquire into the Franz commercial offering, because it probably has more built-in development tools for the PC platform.
Raffael Cavallaro <raff...@mediaone.net> wrote: > Just to be clear about the status of MCL and OpenMCL:
> -The native Mac OS X version runs under the latest version of Mac OS X > (10.2.3), and earlier versions.
> - MCL has some high level hooks into the mac toolbox (Carbon, and Core > Services, not Cocoa), and tools to let you interface to other stuff > yourself, as needed.
So MCL 5.0 has no Cocoa support? You need to work with OpenMCL (or some other CL) for that? I've been playing around with the pure language with 4.3.x, and was looking toward doing some serious integration once I switched wholeheartedly to X, but it sounds like 5.0 is not the tool I'm looking for. Can you get Cocoa hooks with a standard FFI? Has anyone written a decent framework for such, or are people just using OpenMCL? or objective-C?
