I've been spending the last couple weeks getting started with Lisp development and one of the best resources I found was Marco Barringer's SLIME movie. I've seen a few other blogs that mentioned that it was useful, and I wanted to make a contribution to the SLIME effort. I did a review/annotation of the movie, with timestamps, explanations, all the key chords, and links to relevant documentation. I hope that others find it useful and that it can reduce some of the learning curve in getting started with Lisp. Comments appreciated!
> I use the CVS version, which wouldn't work until I added, > (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) > Something you may want to mention.
Yeah, I haven't set it up according to the directions. I have the preconfigured SLIME that comes with Lisp in a Box. I was wondering about the CVS setup. I'll add that to the document. Thanks!
pchristensen wrote: > I've been spending the last couple weeks getting started with Lisp > development and one of the best resources I found was Marco > Barringer's SLIME movie. I've seen a few other blogs that mentioned > that it was useful, and I wanted to make a contribution to the SLIME > effort. I did a review/annotation of the movie, with timestamps, > explanations, all the key chords, and links to relevant > documentation. I hope that others find it useful and that it can > reduce some of the learning curve in getting started with Lisp. > Comments appreciated!
er, Hip hip hooray? This is my dream come true, fresh blood invigorating the CL landscape. We get a /lot/ of noobs who whine about the tools learning curve, and I understand that it is hard, but I also understand that the situation will not change until folks like you make the climb and before charging off to create the next Viaweb take a moment or week to make things easier for the next bloke.
> pchristensen wrote: >> I've been spending the last couple weeks getting started with Lisp >> development and one of the best resources I found was Marco >> Barringer's SLIME movie. I've seen a few other blogs that mentioned >> that it was useful, and I wanted to make a contribution to the SLIME >> effort. I did a review/annotation of the movie, with timestamps, >> explanations, all the key chords, and links to relevant >> documentation. I hope that others find it useful and that it can >> reduce some of the learning curve in getting started with Lisp. >> Comments appreciated!
> er, Hip hip hooray?
Seconded. This is really cool! I hope you'll stick around a create more ressources like this.
Peter
This is my dream come true, fresh blood invigorating
> the CL landscape. We get a /lot/ of noobs who whine about the tools > learning curve, and I understand that it is hard, but I also understand > that the situation will not change until folks like you make the climb > and before charging off to create the next Viaweb take a moment or week > to make things easier for the next bloke.
> pchristensen <peter.t.christen...@gmail.com> writes: > > I've been spending the last couple weeks getting started with Lisp > > development and one of the best resources I found was Marco > > Barringer's SLIME movie. I've seen a few other blogs that mentioned > > that it was useful, and I wanted to make a contribution to the SLIME > > effort. I did a review/annotation of the movie, with timestamps, > > explanations, all the key chords, and links to relevant > > documentation. I hope that others find it useful and that it can > > reduce some of the learning curve in getting started with Lisp. > > Comments appreciated!
> Next step, make another screencast that add to what Marco covered! :)
> /Andreas
> -- > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
Thanks for the positive feedback! I don't know when I'll be ready to do a screencast of my own - it would be really choppy with me looking over at my Emacs cheat sheet every time I tried to do something! What I will be working on in the near future is creating more "advanced beginner" type resources - help for people who are convinced enough that they'll put in several hours effort to master something (Lisp/ Emacs/Slime/Hunchentoot/whatever) but not several hours just to chase scattered and mildly applicable documentation.
Most of the documentation I've seen aims for the pre-converted ("Here's why you should use Lisp") or the tasters (i.e. Fibonacci sequence). Once you get past those, it goes way into the much more advanced stuff (OnLisp, CL Hyperspec, this forum, etc). I want to fill something in the middle of these two extremes, with links to the more advanced stuff so it's easy to dive deeper once you get the hang of something.
> Thanks for the positive feedback! I don't know when I'll be ready to > do a screencast of my own - it would be really choppy with me looking > over at my Emacs cheat sheet every time I tried to do something! What > I will be working on in the near future is creating more "advanced > beginner" type resources - help for people who are convinced enough > that they'll put in several hours effort to master something (Lisp/ > Emacs/Slime/Hunchentoot/whatever) but not several hours just to chase > scattered and mildly applicable documentation.
I fully agree, and I am glad you are addressing this issue (instead of just complain for a while and then move on, like most of us do ;-)). If you need help at any point, I'd be happy to help you out (and so would be most people on c.l.l, I assume).
(Forgive me shamelessly plugging my own cause --) I see you are looking at web apps (hunchentoot), but in case you are interested in desktop apps as well you might want to consider looking into free GUI toolkits. Given the recent discussion on c.l.l I have a feeling there are a lot of low-hanging fruits out there (since there is hardly any doc at all on the topic). You might check out clg [1], celtk [2], ltk [3], or cells-gtk [4] as starting point.
A library overview might be another useful thing (similar to Daniel Weireb's recent survey of common lisp implementations [5]). There is a list on cliki [6], but AFAICT it is in need of some TLC.
> Most of the documentation I've seen aims for the pre-converted > ("Here's why you should use Lisp") or the tasters (i.e. Fibonacci > sequence). Once you get past those, it goes way into the much more > advanced stuff (OnLisp, CL Hyperspec, this forum, etc). I want to > fill something in the middle of these two extremes, with links to the > more advanced stuff so it's easy to dive deeper once you get the hang > of something.
Exactly my experience: I read so much "Lisp is soooooo cool" praise (The text book for my AI class, Paul Graham's essays, c.l.l etc.), got started, and, well, tried to read On Lisp and understand the hyperspec. If it hadn't been for a copy of Peter Seibel's PCL I would have given up right away ;-)
So I really hope you manage to keep up your motivitation :-)
> > Thanks for the positive feedback! I don't know when I'll be ready to > > do a screencast of my own - it would be really choppy with me looking > > over at my Emacs cheat sheet every time I tried to do something! What > > I will be working on in the near future is creating more "advanced > > beginner" type resources - help for people who are convinced enough > > that they'll put in several hours effort to master something (Lisp/ > > Emacs/Slime/Hunchentoot/whatever) but not several hours just to chase > > scattered and mildly applicable documentation.
> I fully agree, and I am glad you are addressing this issue (instead of > just complain for a while and then move on, like most of us do ;-)). If > you need help at any point, I'd be happy to help you out (and so would > be most people on c.l.l, I assume).
> (Forgive me shamelessly plugging my own cause --) I see you are looking > at web apps (hunchentoot), but in case you are interested in desktop > apps as well you might want to consider looking into free GUI toolkits. > Given the recent discussion on c.l.l I have a feeling there are a lot > of low-hanging fruits out there (since there is hardly any doc at all on > the topic). You might check out clg [1], celtk [2], ltk [3], or > cells-gtk [4] as starting point.
> A library overview might be another useful thing (similar to Daniel > Weireb's recent survey of common lisp implementations [5]). There is a > list on cliki [6], but AFAICT it is in need of some TLC.
> > Most of the documentation I've seen aims for the pre-converted > > ("Here's why you should use Lisp") or the tasters (i.e. Fibonacci > > sequence). Once you get past those, it goes way into the much more > > advanced stuff (OnLisp, CL Hyperspec, this forum, etc). I want to > > fill something in the middle of these two extremes, with links to the > > more advanced stuff so it's easy to dive deeper once you get the hang > > of something.
> Exactly my experience: I read so much "Lisp is soooooo cool" praise > (The text book for my AI class, Paul Graham's essays, c.l.l etc.), got > started, and, well, tried to read On Lisp and understand the hyperspec. > If it hadn't been for a copy of Peter Seibel's PCL I would have given > up right away ;-)
> So I really hope you manage to keep up your motivitation :-)
> Peter
> > -Peter
Peter H, I have been impressed by some of the GUI tools I've seen, although that's not really what I'm looking to work on right now. It is more evidence to support the claim that Lisp is a good programming language for X, for any value of X. So much of the Lisp commentary says that if you have [special, hard] problem, then Lisp is good for you. But in reality, Lisp (esp. CL) is a great general purpose language! PCL made me believe this, but it was a quote from PAIP that gave me the enlightenment (see http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/best-quote-about-lisp-thats...). A library overview is DEFINITELY on my list (prob medium term, since I need to use them for a while). As a .Net developer by day, no matter how much I love other aspects of Lisp, I find it *horrifying* to look at the cliki page or the asdf/asdf-install page and think that this is the best we've got. It's one of the many aspects of community building that's not exciting or sexy but would pay excruciatingly high dividends in not turning off prospective users. I think one of my long term goals is to create/facilitate some sort of Lisp "distro", sort of like Lisp-in-a-Box, that includes the best libraries, an easy way to inspect and import them, and good documentation for it. I'd bet my front teeth all of these pieces already exist, they just need someone to do the drudge work in organizing and packaging them.
> On Feb 11, 9:56 am, Peter Hildebrandt <peter.hildebra...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > Peter,
> > > Thanks for the positive feedback! I don't know when I'll be ready to > > > do a screencast of my own - it would be really choppy with me looking > > > over at my Emacs cheat sheet every time I tried to do something! What > > > I will be working on in the near future is creating more "advanced > > > beginner" type resources - help for people who are convinced enough > > > that they'll put in several hours effort to master something (Lisp/ > > > Emacs/Slime/Hunchentoot/whatever) but not several hours just to chase > > > scattered and mildly applicable documentation.
> > I fully agree, and I am glad you are addressing this issue (instead of > > just complain for a while and then move on, like most of us do ;-)). If > > you need help at any point, I'd be happy to help you out (and so would > > be most people on c.l.l, I assume).
> > (Forgive me shamelessly plugging my own cause --) I see you are looking > > at web apps (hunchentoot), but in case you are interested in desktop > > apps as well you might want to consider looking into free GUI toolkits. > > Given the recent discussion on c.l.l I have a feeling there are a lot > > of low-hanging fruits out there (since there is hardly any doc at all on > > the topic). You might check out clg [1], celtk [2], ltk [3], or > > cells-gtk [4] as starting point.
> > A library overview might be another useful thing (similar to Daniel > > Weireb's recent survey of common lisp implementations [5]). There is a > > list on cliki [6], but AFAICT it is in need of some TLC.
> > > Most of the documentation I've seen aims for the pre-converted > > > ("Here's why you should use Lisp") or the tasters (i.e. Fibonacci > > > sequence). Once you get past those, it goes way into the much more > > > advanced stuff (OnLisp, CL Hyperspec, this forum, etc). I want to > > > fill something in the middle of these two extremes, with links to the > > > more advanced stuff so it's easy to dive deeper once you get the hang > > > of something.
> > Exactly my experience: I read so much "Lisp is soooooo cool" praise > > (The text book for my AI class, Paul Graham's essays, c.l.l etc.), got > > started, and, well, tried to read On Lisp and understand the hyperspec. > > If it hadn't been for a copy of Peter Seibel's PCL I would have given > > up right away ;-)
> > So I really hope you manage to keep up your motivitation :-)
> > Peter
> > > -Peter
> Peter H, > I have been impressed by some of the GUI tools I've seen, > although that's not really what I'm looking to work on right now. It > is more evidence to support the claim that Lisp is a good programming > language for X, for any value of X. So much of the Lisp commentary > says that if you have [special, hard] problem, then Lisp is good for > you. But in reality, Lisp (esp. CL) is a great general purpose > language! PCL made me believe this, but it was a quote from PAIP that > gave me the enlightenment (seehttp://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/best-quote-about-lisp-thats...). > A library overview is DEFINITELY on my list (prob medium term, > since I need to use them for a while). As a .Net developer by day, no > matter how much I love other aspects of Lisp, I find it *horrifying* > to look at the cliki page or the asdf/asdf-install page and think that > this is the best we've got. It's one of the many aspects of community > building that's not exciting or sexy but would pay excruciatingly high > dividends in not turning off prospective users. > I think one of my long term goals is to create/facilitate some > sort of Lisp "distro", sort of like Lisp-in-a-Box, that includes the > best libraries, an easy way to inspect and import them, and good > documentation for it. I'd bet my front teeth all of these pieces > already exist, they just need someone to do the drudge work in > organizing and packaging them.
> -Peter C
Just as a followup, since most of my time right now is spent learning rather than doing, my immediate plans are to watch all of the movies/ screencasts I can find and do similar annotations of them. Then I can list and rate them in one place (prospective users love stuff like this). Right now these are the movies I have and am working on:
pchristensen <peter.t.christen...@gmail.com> writes: > A library overview is DEFINITELY on my list (prob medium term, > since I need to use them for a while). As a .Net developer by day, no > matter how much I love other aspects of Lisp, I find it *horrifying* > to look at the cliki page or the asdf/asdf-install page and think that > this is the best we've got. It's one of the many aspects of community > building that's not exciting or sexy but would pay excruciatingly high > dividends in not turning off prospective users. > I think one of my long term goals is to create/facilitate some > sort of Lisp "distro", sort of like Lisp-in-a-Box, that includes the > best libraries, an easy way to inspect and import them, and good > documentation for it. I'd bet my front teeth all of these pieces > already exist, they just need someone to do the drudge work in > organizing and packaging them.
For Lisp-in-a-Box - have you seen clbuild[1]? It works like a charm on most Unix-like systems and have a list of libraries that are supposed to be good. One may face some problems using it on Windozz, but then again - most interesting libraries are offered as a cvs/darcs/git/snv repos nowadays so having these revision control software is almost a prerequisite anyway.
pchristensen wrote: > I think one of my long term goals is to create/facilitate some > sort of Lisp "distro", sort of like Lisp-in-a-Box, that includes the > best libraries, an easy way to inspect and import them, and good > documentation for it. I'd bet my front teeth all of these pieces > already exist, they just need someone to do the drudge work in > organizing and packaging them.
It varies from piece to piece. The Story of Lisp Libraries, as I believe Mr. Weinreb recently lamented but anyone can confirm, is one of initial enthusiasm followed by rapid abandonment. Lisp simply has not reached that critical mass where there is always some other sucker, er, enthusiast to take the baton when another falters. But it is getting there (the mass, I mean).
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