Common Lisp vs Scheme
Software Scavenger
ensuing flame wars. But why should it? It seems to me that when
there is so much tension between opposing ideas, a good healthy
shootout is sometimes the best way to clear the air.
Therefore, instead of endlessly arguing, getting emotional, falling
into habits of ad hominem arguments, attacking language communities
instead of language differences, etc., why don't we just have a
genuine shootout, and get the whole thing over with fast?
The way this shootout could work, each "shot" consists of posting some
code comparing the two languages or showing how one of them is
elegant, or even just showing how easy it is to write a particular
function in your favorite language. When the "enemy" shoots back, it
could be with a counterexample, showing how their version of the same
program in their language is even better than yours.
The programs should be simple enough to only be a few dozen lines of
code at most. E.g. programs to convert between integers and Roman
numerals, programs to find prime factors, etc. Nothing GUI, nothing
FFI, nothing requiring in-depth knowledge of a particular
implementation. Just simple programs that show the two languages in
short snippets which can be easily compared.
Marco Antoniotti
cubic...@mailandnews.com (Software Scavenger) writes:
(make-array (list 3 3 3) :initial-element 0.0d0 :element-type 'double-float)
Please include the whole multidimensional array library (or a pointer
to the full blown implementation) in your Scheme reply :)
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti ========================================================
NYU Courant Bioinformatics Group tel. +1 - 212 - 998 3488
715 Broadway 10th Floor fax +1 - 212 - 995 4122
New York, NY 10003, USA http://bioinformatics.cat.nyu.edu
"Hello New York! We'll do what we can!"
Bill Murray in `Ghostbusters'.
Rolf Wester
Is there anything in Scheme that is comparable to the CL loop macro?
Nils Goesche
[ comp.lang.scheme removed from the list of newsgroups ]
Rolf Wester <rolf....@t-online.de> writes:
> Is there anything in Scheme that is comparable to the CL loop macro?
No. And judging from
CL-USER 157 > (loop for x being the external-symbols of :cl count x)
978
there is a whole lot of other questions like this, all having the
answer ``No.''.
> Software Scavenger wrote:
>
> > The above subject line makes people cringe at the thought of the
> > ensuing flame wars. But why should it? It seems to me that when
> > there is so much tension between opposing ideas, a good healthy
> > shootout is sometimes the best way to clear the air.
Only if there is some common ground for communication. There isn't in
this case. How do you communicate with someone who believes ludicrous
nonsense like ``If it can be derived, it doesn't belong into the
spec.''?
> > Therefore, instead of endlessly arguing, getting emotional, falling
> > into habits of ad hominem arguments, attacking language communities
> > instead of language differences, etc., why don't we just have a
> > genuine shootout, and get the whole thing over with fast?
Because it will never be over. The Schemers turned their backs to
Lisp almost 20 years ago, and you won't bring them back with a little
flame war.
> > The way this shootout could work, each "shot" consists of posting some
> > code comparing the two languages or showing how one of them is
> > elegant, or even just showing how easy it is to write a particular
> > function in your favorite language. When the "enemy" shoots back, it
> > could be with a counterexample, showing how their version of the same
> > program in their language is even better than yours.
> >
> > The programs should be simple enough to only be a few dozen lines of
> > code at most. E.g. programs to convert between integers and Roman
> > numerals, programs to find prime factors, etc. Nothing GUI, nothing
> > FFI, nothing requiring in-depth knowledge of a particular
> > implementation. Just simple programs that show the two languages in
> > short snippets which can be easily compared.
I think you are overestimating the value of such little snippets.
They don't tell you much. And we'll never agree on which snippet is
more elegant than the other. Imagine the line noise some Perl H@X0R
would contribute... you won't convince him either that your snippets
are better.
And all that wouldn't even be a problem, if all Schemers had the
decency of confining themselves to practicing their innocuous little
habit in their support group comp.lang.scheme. But unfortunately,
some of them feel the perverted, exhibitionist urge to constantly
demonstrate their impediment to the rest of the world, like ``See? I
really believe that. Please tell me how sick and filthy I am!'' The
same goes for Dylan.
And vice versa, Lispers shouldn't unnecessarily bother them by posting
intimidating code to comp.lang.scheme thus even /inviting/ their
trolls and nutjobs to comp.lang.lisp.
Regards,
--
Nils Goesche
"Don't ask for whom the <CTRL-G> tolls."
PGP key ID 0x42B32FC9
glauber
> The above subject line makes people cringe at the thought of the
> ensuing flame wars. But why should it? It seems to me that when
> there is so much tension between opposing ideas, a good healthy
> shootout is sometimes the best way to clear the air.
>
> Therefore, instead of endlessly arguing, getting emotional, falling
> into habits of ad hominem arguments, attacking language communities
> instead of language differences, etc., why don't we just have a
> genuine shootout, and get the whole thing over with fast?
[...]
The problem is that many many things that are part of Common Lisp
either don't exist in Scheme or are part of 3rd-party libraries. Just
to mention one example: hash tables. So it's very easy to write Common
Lisp code that takes only a few lines, but would take hundreds of
lines to duplicate in Scheme.
In other words, the 2 languages serve different domains; they have
different design goals.
g
Benjamin Simon
NG> [ comp.lang.scheme removed from the list of newsgroups ]
>> Software Scavenger wrote:
>>
>> > The above subject line makes people cringe at the thought of the
>> > ensuing flame wars. But why should it? It seems to me that when
>> > there is so much tension between opposing ideas, a good healthy
>> > shootout is sometimes the best way to clear the air.
NG> Only if there is some common ground for communication. There isn't
NG> in this case.
That I agree with.
NG> How do you communicate with someone who believes ludicrous nonsense
NG> like ``If it can be derived, it doesn't belong into the spec.''?
I know how you feel. I said that statement in response to what I
considered was just as ludicrous a comment. I wasn't even saying that
Scheme is right in following this kind of design paradigm, just that,
Scheme does.
In fact, all I was just trying to do was to make sure that
misinformation about Scheme wasn't spreading (that you can't do OO in
native Scheme), and instead ended up in a flame war. Yikes. I didn't
even try to claim that Scheme was better...just that it was different.
So we agree, we just weren't meant to communicate :-)
>> > Therefore, instead of endlessly arguing, getting emotional, falling
>> > into habits of ad hominem arguments, attacking language communities
>> > instead of language differences, etc., why don't we just have a
>> > genuine shootout, and get the whole thing over with fast?
NG> Because it will never be over. The Schemers turned their backs to
NG> Lisp almost 20 years ago, and you won't bring them back with a
NG> little flame war.
Apparently. And any attempt to have a sane discussion seems to turn into
a flame war so easily. Again, referring to the statement I made above
-- I wasn't trying to claim that Scheme was better than Lisp, just
different. And yet, the group interpreted it as a call to war.
>> > Just simple programs that show the two languages in short snippets
>> > which can be easily compared.
NG> I think you are overestimating the value of such little snippets.
NG> They don't tell you much. And we'll never agree on which snippet
NG> is more elegant than the other. Imagine the line noise some Perl
NG> H@X0R would contribute... you won't convince him either that your
NG> snippets are better.
Exactly.
NG> And all that wouldn't even be a problem, if all Schemers had the
NG> decency of confining themselves to practicing their innocuous
NG> little habit in their support group comp.lang.scheme.
But what happens when mis-information is posted in com.lang.lisp?
Should it just be left alone? I agree that we can do without these
flame wars, but you certainly don't want to spread lies. Right?
What do you think is the appropriate way to handle a situation like
this?
NG> But unfortunately, some of them feel the perverted, exhibitionist
NG> urge to constantly demonstrate their impediment to the rest of the
NG> world, like ``See? I really believe that. Please tell me how sick
NG> and filthy I am!'' The same goes for Dylan.
Keep in mind that the "ludicrous" quote above came from a flame war
started by a CL'er. He started off by providing some mis-information
about Scheme, and when I attempted to clear up the point got dragged
into an all out flame war. Of course it is my fault -- I should have not
taken the bait. Or, should have tried to correct the information and not
responded after that. But I fell for it. Still, it was spawned by a
CL'er, not a Schemer.
I'm not trying to place blame on anyone here. I just agree with you
trying to determine which is a better language (CL or Scheme) is silly
and is just going to get you into a flame fest.
(Now, I can't wait to see what this post spawns...)
-Ben
Andy Freeman
> shootout is sometimes the best way to clear the air.
(1) Who wants clear air? (Hint - not the participants.)
(2) If you think that technical merit is decisive, you don't
understand the question.
(3) The only possible result of a "shootout" is that programmer A
should write application B in language C. Since that result is
usually available before the shootout....
(4) If you're looking for great insight in program snippets....
(5) Evaluating programming languages by looking at implementations
of trivial algorithms/applications is ....
(6) Constraints that eliminate classes of applications that people
care is ....
(7) It's been done, many times. If it didn't have the desired result
then, why will this time be any different?
-andy
ps - The answer to "Is Computer Science filled with mediocrity?" is
"no - it is 90% crap like everything else".
Kaz Kylheku
Freeman wrote:
> (3) The only possible result of a "shootout" is that programmer A
> should write application B in language C.
;-)
Pierpaolo BERNARDI
"Software Scavenger" <cubic...@mailandnews.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:a6789134.02080...@posting.google.com...
> The above subject line makes people cringe at the thought of the
> ensuing flame wars. But why should it?
"I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man
standing on the edge, about to jump off.
So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!"
"Why shouldn't I?" he said.
I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"
He said, "Like what?"
I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"
He said, "Religious."
I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?"
He said, "Christian."
I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?"
He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you
Episcopalian or Baptist?"
He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you
Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?"
He said, "Baptist church of god!"
I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist church of god,
or are you reformed Baptist church of god?"
He said, "Reformed Baptist church of god!"
I said, "Me too! Are you reformed Baptist church of god,
reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god,
reformation of 1915?"
He said, "Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation
of 1915!"
I said, "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off."
Marco Antoniotti
Benjamin Simon <b...@atom.amazingmedia.com> writes:
...
> Keep in mind that the "ludicrous" quote above came from a flame war
> started by a CL'er. He started off by providing some mis-information
> about Scheme,
I am the CLer and I did not spread misinformation. I may have chosen
my words poorly but the semantics is still valid.
Scheme does not have a OO in the standard (meanign something similar
to Smalltalk, C++, Java, CLOS, Eiffel, Ada95, Python, etc etc). CL
does.
Thomas Bushnell, BSG
> Is there anything in Scheme that is comparable to the CL loop macro?
Thankfully no. There is named let, however. ;)
Is there anything in CL that is comparable to call/cc?
Marco Antoniotti
tb+u...@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) writes:
> Rolf Wester <rolf....@t-online.de> writes:
>
> > Is there anything in Scheme that is comparable to the CL loop macro?
>
> Thankfully no. There is named let, however. ;)
It is just one short macro away :)
> Is there anything in CL that is comparable to call/cc?
No. For most uses of call/cc you have equivalent higher level
constructs in CL (think the condition system, aka "exceptions").
Essentially what you lack in CL is the possibility to use
continuations to "save the state" and resume computation later in a
generalized way. In CL you only have a restricted form with
"restarts".
OTHO, call/cc is not all that useful when implementing
multidimensional arrays, hash tables, etc etc. :)
Per Bothner
> (make-array (list 3 3 3) :initial-element 0.0d0 :element-type 'double-float)
>
> Please include the whole multidimensional array library (or a pointer
> to the full blown implementation) in your Scheme reply :)
#|kawa:1|# (share-array
#|(---:2|# (make-f64vector 27 0.0)
#|(---:3|# (shape 0 3 0 3 0 3)
#|(---:4|# (lambda (i j k) (+ (* 9 i) (* 3 j) k)))
#3a(((0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0))
((0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0))
((0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0)))
Using Kawa (http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/), which implements
SRFI 4 (Homogeneous numeric vector datatypes) and SRFI 25
(Multi-dimensional array primitive). Kawa extends the latter
to allow share-array to be passed arbitrary vectors (including strings).
--
--Per Bothner
p...@bothner.com http://www.bothner.com/per/
Christopher Browne
Ah, but that's not specified by R5RS, so it may be safely ignored as
being a non-Scheme figment of the imagination.
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@cbbrowne.com")
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/sgml.html
"Linux is obsolete" -- Andrew Tanenbaum
James A. Crippen
> Quoth Per Bothner <p...@bothner.com>:
>> Marco Antoniotti wrote:
>>> (make-array (list 3 3 3) :initial-element 0.0d0 :element-type 'double-float)
>>> Please include the whole multidimensional array library (or a pointer
>>> to the full blown implementation) in your Scheme reply :)
>>
>> #|kawa:1|# (share-array
>> #|(---:2|# (make-f64vector 27 0.0)
>> #|(---:3|# (shape 0 3 0 3 0 3)
>> #|(---:4|# (lambda (i j k) (+ (* 9 i) (* 3 j) k)))
>> #3a(((0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0))
>> ((0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0))
>> ((0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0) (0.0 0.0 0.0)))
>>
>> Using Kawa (http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/), which implements
>> SRFI 4 (Homogeneous numeric vector datatypes) and SRFI 25
>> (Multi-dimensional array primitive). Kawa extends the latter
>> to allow share-array to be passed arbitrary vectors (including strings).
>
> Ah, but that's not specified by R5RS, so it may be safely ignored as
> being a non-Scheme figment of the imagination.
That's okay. Since the IEEE Scheme standard expired the language
itself is a figment of the imagination. IE, only useful to
imaginative users. No good for commercial applications, of course.
'james
(setf (troll-o-meter:warning-trigger-level) 'infinity)
--
James A. Crippen <ja...@unlambda.com> ,-./-. Anchorage, Alaska,
Lambda Unlimited: Recursion 'R' Us | |/ | USA, 61.20939N, -149.767W
Y = \f.(\x.f(xx)) (\x.f(xx)) | |\ | Earth, Sol System,
Y(F) = F(Y(F)) \_,-_/ Milky Way.
Erik Naggum
| Since the IEEE Scheme standard expired
When did this happen and why was it allowed to?
--
Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
Hannah Schroeter
Stephen J. Bevan <ste...@dino.dnsalias.com> wrote:
>[...]
>I agree, but it can be used to implement an event driven system which
>is is based around select/poll/queue listening on non-blocking
>file-descriptors. Using call/cc is is possible to write much of the
>code as if it is executing in separate "threads" as long as you are
>careful to implement any I/O calls using non-blocking I/O and call/cc
>to hook a continuation into the event distribution mechanism.
That's actually what I intended, too.
>You can of course do this without call/cc but not without writing much
>of the application code in a continuation-passing style. I don't mind
>that too much myself but it certainly isn't going to win any clarity
>contests compared to the direct version (that uses call/cc underneath).
That's what I've done even in C++ many times. Of course,
in C++ it's much more icky than it'd be in Lisp or even
any modern statically typed functional language, regardless
of whether it's Haskell or some ML.
>One thing I've yet to determine is which of the the call/cc or CPS
>version actually performs better for various implementations. If it
>turns out CPS is significantly better (enough to make up for the code
>contortions) then it would put an end to the only practical use I've
>ever made of call/cc.
It probably depends on the implementation. If the implementation
does full CPS transform, performance will probably be nearly
equal between both approaches: call/cc will be comparatively
cheap. If there's significant stack copying or so involved for
call/cc, your manual CPS transform will turn out better.
Of course, I'd have not too much problem with a de-facto standard
for cheap enough concurrency (meaning: no thread preemption
required, but threads should cost less than the memory for a
separate stack per thread) either. Things like Concurrent
Haskell (in GHC's implementation, it costs about 1 to 2 kb
of fixed overhead per thread, WITH thread-preemption),
Concurrent ML in SML/NJ's implementation (SML/NJ does
a full CPS transform, offers a call/cc equivalent but
also thread primitives which are implemented by continuation
switching plus a preemption mechanism), or Erlang (thread
costs significantly below 1 kB of memory) come to mind.
Kind regards,
Hannah.
Dorai Sitaram
>
> When did this happen and why was it allowed to?
It happened earlier this year I think. Chris Haynes
posted to comp.lang.scheme in December of 2001 saying
that the IEEE Scheme standard was timing out and that
if interested parties felt it was necessary or
worthwhile to renew it they should do so soon.
Kent M Pitman
This is an issue I've thought a great deal about.
Other than churning more fees from the community and making people spend a
lot of money on process that is better spent on product, can anyone cite
a material difference it makes whether there is a present or past standard?
I'd be curious to know an actual documented case where it turns out to
matter.
Erik Naggum
| Other than churning more fees from the community and making people spend a
| lot of money on process that is better spent on product, can anyone cite a
| material difference it makes whether there is a present or past standard?
| I'd be curious to know an actual documented case where it turns out to
| matter.
It matters when you have a legal dispute over a bug in an implementation
that causes significant problems that somebody has to pay for. This does
not happen in a language that is only used for toy purposes and nobody cares
much about the standard, since everybody program to an implementation,
anyway.
Kent M Pitman
> * Kent M Pitman
> | Other than churning more fees from the community and making people
> | spend a lot of money on process that is better spent on product,
> | can anyone cite a material difference it makes whether there is a
> | present or past standard? I'd be curious to know an actual
> | documented case where it turns out to matter.
>
> It matters when you have a legal dispute over a bug in an
> implementation that causes significant problems that somebody has
> to pay for. This does not happen in a language that is only used
> for toy purposes and nobody cares much about the standard, since
> everybody program to an implementation, anyway.
Maybe you're intending to answer for this case, but I didn't ask as
specifically as I should have. Let me restate and elaborate my
question/comment and see if it changes your answer.
I really meant the case of an expired standard. Is there substantial
evidence to believe that people regard "expired standards" at the same
level as "toy". Or do they secretly understand that an expired
standard can still be a real standard and that it's just a hassle to
renew.
For example, their been suits made (or suits known to have been
declined to be made) based on the expiredness of some language
standard.
You see, personally, I think it's nuts to say a standard expires. I
think it's like asking someone if he wants to renew his nobel prize or
asking an author if they want renew not their copyright but their
authorship.
Sure, the standards organization can claim that by not renewing it has
lost credibility, but I find that a foolish default. I'd rather say
that to lose credibility, you have to take specific community action
and that otherwise a standard merely continues to stand.
I know the standards bodies make the claim that without periodic
review you cannot know this, but I think that's not really true.
While consensus about MEANING of a standard is important, I don't
think consensus about "still usefulness" of a standard is important.
If there is even one user of a past standard, then I think that
standard retains its significance to that user and for others to vote
them out is nutty.
I think this is just a revenue churning game by standards
organizations, and I resent it.
There is something weirdly 1984-ish about calling up IEEE and having
them say "Scheme standard? What Scheme standard? We never heard of a
Scheme standard." (OK, the conversation wouldn't probably go just
like that, but perhaps you get my point...)
This is all just my private opinion and is not, for example, the
official policy of any standards organization I might have previously
represented (heh), nor is it the opinion of any company I now or have
previously represented.
Christopher Browne
> * Kent M Pitman
> | Other than churning more fees from the community and making people
> | spend a lot of money on process that is better spent on product,
> | can anyone cite a material difference it makes whether there is a
> | present or past standard? I'd be curious to know an actual
> | documented case where it turns out to matter.
>
> It matters when you have a legal dispute over a bug in an
> implementation that causes significant problems that somebody has
> to pay for. This does not happen in a language that is only used
> for toy purposes and nobody cares much about the standard, since
> everybody program to an implementation, anyway.
I would think lawsuit thing would be much more likely to happen with
regard to the conformance of Ada implementations with their relevant
standards.
After all, they do use Ada to do things like controlling guided
missiles and nuclear weapons, and, well, people that are in the market
for nuclear weapons _are_ likely to be more than a little
anal-retentive about such details...
--
(concatenate 'string "chris" "@cbbrowne.com")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/nonrdbms.html
Rules of the Evil Overlord #157. "Whenever plans are drawn up that
include a time-table, I'll post-date the completion 3 days after it's
actually scheduled to occur and not worry too much if they get
stolen." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/>
Erik Naggum
| Maybe you're intending to answer for this case, but I didn't ask as
| specifically as I should have. Let me restate and elaborate my
| question/comment and see if it changes your answer.
I understood your quesetion the way you intended. I think an expired
standard is harder to use as a legal reference than a "live" standard, but
if you cannot actually get a vendor to state their conformance in writing,
it is a moot question, anyway. I think conformance clauses that require
only products that purports to conform to the standard be called by the name
of the standard would be more useful than non-expiring standards. Then it
would say in the product documentation or even its splash/banner that it is
a Common Lisp, say, because it purports to conform to the standard and that
it would be a serious infringement (of some kind) to call something a Common
Lisp if it did not so state.
| Or do they secretly understand that an expired standard can still be a real
| standard and that it's just a hassle to renew.
I think people regard an expired standard as expired for a reason. A renewal
is a good signal from the community that it cares enough about the standard
to maintain it. Failure to send that signal could be interpreted as meaning
that anything goes and that the community no longer cares about conformance
to this standard. At the very least, those who depend on it should scrounge
up the monies to renew it if that is what is required.
| You see, personally, I think it's nuts to say a standard expires. I think
| it's like asking someone if he wants to renew his nobel prize or asking an
| author if they want renew not their copyright but their authorship.
Well, I agree that it is nuts that it expires -- there should instead be a
move to obsolete a standard -- but when the standards bodies require it, you
either play their game or you lose by default. If you want to move that a
particular standard should not expire despite the rules that are intended to
expire defaultly obsoleted standards. there are rules to that effect, too,
if you want to get ineto the politics of IEEE standardization.
Not that I think this matters for Common Lisp concerns. I would find a way
to get the money to pay ANSI to keep ANSI X3.224 alive for however long it
requires. (I even toyed with the idea of having one of the Bible printers
produce a gilded, leather bound version of the standard on their fine India
paper. When they can do that with dictionaries, they can do it with real
reference works.)
Paolo Amoroso
> * James A. Crippen
> | Since the IEEE Scheme standard expired
>
> When did this happen and why was it allowed to?
There were some articles about this in comp.lang.scheme a few months ago,
but I can't remember anything more.
Paolo
--
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://www.paoloamoroso.it/ency/README