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What websites use Lisp?

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dan

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Dec 2, 2008, 3:27:07 AM12/2/08
to
I'm putting together a structured wiki that documents what languages,
frameworks, and libraries are used by various websites. One of the
goals of the wiki is to highlight the diverse set of languages and
other components that people can and do use to power their sites.

I'd like to add in some sites that use Lisp and various related
frameworks or components like UnCommon Web (UCW), AllegroServe,
Hunchentoot, mod_lisp, etc.

So, far, I've found a few Lisp sites like http://gainesville-green.com,
http://origamigallery.net/, & http://www.lispnyc.org/wiki.clp?page=about.
But, it's a pretty tough slog.

Does anyone here have a Lisp powered website? If so, would you mind
sharing the URL and what other support components are you using (e.g,
UCW, mod_lisp)?

Thanks, Dan

are

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Dec 2, 2008, 6:16:44 AM12/2/08
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How about the air-travel site matrix.itasoftware.com .

Zach Beane

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Dec 2, 2008, 7:37:18 AM12/2/08
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dan <Danie...@gmail.com> writes:

> Does anyone here have a Lisp powered website? If so, would you mind
> sharing the URL and what other support components are you using (e.g,
> UCW, mod_lisp)?

http://wigflip.com/ is powered by TBNL. It's been running odd little
Lisp-powered graphical amusements since 2005. The most popular
application is <http://wigflip.com/signbot/>, which is powered by
Skippy. The most recent is tinytags at <http://wigflip.com/tinytags/>,
which I'm pleased to say topped delicious.com for a while (see
<http://flickr.com/photos/xach/3059723046/>) a few days ago.

Zach

Volkan YAZICI

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Dec 2, 2008, 7:58:49 AM12/2/08
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On Dec 2, 2:37 pm, Zach Beane <x...@xach.com> wrote:
> http://wigflip.com/is powered by TBNL. It's been running odd little

> Lisp-powered graphical amusements since 2005. The most popular
> application is <http://wigflip.com/signbot/>, which is powered by
> Skippy. The most recent is tinytags at <http://wigflip.com/tinytags/>,
> which I'm pleased to say topped delicious.com for a while (see
> <http://flickr.com/photos/xach/3059723046/>) a few days ago.

Could you mention about the received traffic statistics in
delicious.com effect? How did Hunchentoot stand that load?


Regards.

Leslie P. Polzer

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Dec 2, 2008, 8:09:39 AM12/2/08
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> Does anyone here have a Lisp powered website? If so, would you mind
> sharing the URL and what other support components are you using (e.g,
> UCW, mod_lisp)?

http://beta2.thanandar.de/

Weblocks rproxied with Apache, Elephant on BDB.

Leslie

Zach Beane

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Dec 2, 2008, 8:26:17 AM12/2/08
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Volkan YAZICI <volkan...@gmail.com> writes:

It resulted in about 10,000 page views. I don't use Hunchentoot for
wigflip.com; TBNL didn't have any trouble with the traffic. The server
never got much load as a result.

The movie charts at <http://xach.com/moviecharts/> reached digg.com and
stumbleupon.com popularity, and the traffic effect was much, much, much
bigger than delicious.com. Those files are generated statically by Lisp,
though, and served by nginx, not TBNL.

Zach

Duane Rettig

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Dec 2, 2008, 11:52:47 AM12/2/08
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dan <Danie...@gmail.com> writes:

http://www.franz.com/enterprise_development_tools.lhtml,
http://agraph.franz.com/

Links to docs for the components are at the bottom of the first page.

--
Duane Rettig du...@franz.com Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/
2201 Broadway, Suite 715, Oakland, Ca. 94612

Alberto Riva

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Dec 2, 2008, 1:48:24 PM12/2/08
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dan wrote on 12/02/2008 03:27 AM:
>
> So, far, I've found a few Lisp sites like http://gainesville-green.com,
> http://origamigallery.net/, & http://www.lispnyc.org/wiki.clp?page=about.
> But, it's a pretty tough slog.
>
> Does anyone here have a Lisp powered website? If so, would you mind
> sharing the URL and what other support components are you using (e.g,
> UCW, mod_lisp)?

I wrote a few bioinformatics applications in Lisp:

http://snpper.chip.org/

http://mapper.chip.org/

http://bioinformatics.ufl.edu:8080/gp/


They are all based on an HTTP server + web development framework that I
wrote from scratch. I didn't use any of the existing ones, mainly
because... they didn't exist yet when I started :)

Alberto

dan

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Dec 3, 2008, 11:19:22 PM12/3/08
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On Dec 2, 12:27 am, dan <Daniel....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm putting together a structured wiki that documents what languages,
> frameworks, and libraries are used by various websites. One of the
> goals of the wiki is to highlight the diverse set of languages and
> other components that people can and do use to power their sites.
>
> I'd like to add in some sites that use Lisp and various related
> frameworks or components like UnCommon Web (UCW), AllegroServe,
> Hunchentoot, mod_lisp, etc.
>
> So, far, I've found a few Lisp sites likehttp://gainesville-green.com,http://origamigallery.net/, &http://www.lispnyc.org/wiki.clp?page=about.

> But, it's a pretty tough slog.
>
> Does anyone here have a Lisp powered website? If so, would you mind
> sharing the URL and what other support components are you using (e.g,
> UCW, mod_lisp)?
>
> Thanks, Dan

Thanks, to everybody who responded both to the group and over e-mail.
As soon as I get a chance, I'll add all of the sites.

-Dan

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Dec 4, 2008, 12:37:53 AM12/4/08
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http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb

..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..

..it is in Norwegian:

Søk = Search
Etternavn = Last name
Fornvan = First name
Fritekst = Free text

Nytt søk = New search
Neste side = Next page
Forrige side = Previous page

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Dec 4, 2008, 12:46:18 AM12/4/08
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On Thu, 2008-12-04 at 06:37 +0100, Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
> http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb
>
> ..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..

..forgot to mention that it uses Postmodern:
http://common-lisp.net/project/postmodern/

..SW is being ported to its own HTTP-server atm.(#1), but Hunchentoot
behind Lighttpd is used for that site


#1: runs here: http://nostdal.org:6053/mvc-container-app
"Server: SymbolicWeb (SW-HTTP) v0.5 alpha"

lam

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Dec 4, 2008, 4:40:53 AM12/4/08
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http://www.ovorost.com
it uses : hunchentoot, html-template, drakma, cl-ppcre, clsql-
postgresql, cxml-stp and cl-google-chart
,

On 4 déc, 06:46, Lars Rune Nøstdal <larsnost...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-12-04 at 06:37 +0100, Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
> >http://varefalne.no/runs on SymbolicWeb

Zach Beane

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Dec 4, 2008, 8:34:14 AM12/4/08
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lam <nicolas....@gmail.com> writes:

> http://www.ovorost.com
> it uses : hunchentoot, html-template, drakma, cl-ppcre, clsql-
> postgresql, cxml-stp and cl-google-chart

What's it for? The "About" page doesn't really help me understand.

Zach

Petter Gustad

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Dec 5, 2008, 5:42:30 AM12/5/08
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dan <Danie...@gmail.com> writes:

> Does anyone here have a Lisp powered website? If so, would you mind
> sharing the URL and what other support components are you using (e.g,
> UCW, mod_lisp)?

http://gratismegler.no

Portable Allegroserve/Webactions and CLSQL running CMUCL. All in
Norwegian. I haven't had any time to develop it futher but I have had
more than 6000 unique hits a month (mostly due to the real estate
statistics at http://gratismegler.no/finn).

Petter

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Sasha Kovar

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Dec 6, 2008, 4:28:00 PM12/6/08
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http://toonlet.com runs on ucw_ajax on sbcl behind apache/mod_lisp. It
uses plenty of libraries, including the usual suspects like clsql,
alexandria, mel-base, and stefil.

Our biggest day saw over 20k pageviews. Everything held up pretty well,
though i had to shorten the session expiry time for ucw to keep memory
usage down on our VPS.

I'd be happy to give more specifics on- or off-list if desired.

Sasha

Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t

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Dec 8, 2008, 4:11:35 AM12/8/08
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> From: dan <Daniel....@gmail.com>

> I'm putting together a structured wiki that documents what
> languages, frameworks, and libraries are used by various websites.
> One of the goals of the wiki is to highlight the diverse set of
> languages and other components that people can and do use to power
> their sites.

It's not clear whether you're talking about the master HTTP server
itself, which in most cases is Apache, or the language used to
write individual CGI or similar applications, whereby one user's
"web site" might be all written in PHP and another's might be all
written in Perl and another's might be all written in Common Lisp,
but all three users are on a single ISP sharing a single Apache
HTTP server. If you're asking about individual users' Web sites
within the overall framework of an Apache HTTP server which all
those users share even though the various users use different
languages for their CGI applications, my personal answer is that I
have (so-far) used CMUCL for all serious applications on my Web
site, but have small demos of how to do simple things in several
other languages. In the future I plan to switch to PHP for the
first-step of getting into services, so that floods from dDOS
botnets won't overload the system, and link PHP into CMUCL only
after I'm sure a particular connection isn't from a dDOS botnet or
other unauthorized automated bulk connection flood. One idea is to
keep the URL of the actual CMUCL CGI script secret, and have a
different alias to that script for each user online at a given
time. The entry-point PHP script then verifies non-botnet, creates
a new alias, and redirects to that alias, and all URLs given in
subsequent Web pages/forms for that user will specify that same
alias again, so that one user will stay with that one alias for the
rest of the session. If any particular alias gets overloaded,
meaning that the user has switched over to a bot, that alias is
disabled, causing subsequent HTTP requests by that user's bot to
get 404 NOT FOUND from the Apache server at very little CPU
overhead, and then if the sysadmin sees infinite spew of additional
HTTP requests to the no-longer-existing URL despite the 404 already
sent, the sysadmin can block the relevant client IP numbers at the
Apache level or at the router level.

> Does anyone here have a Lisp powered website?

(Ambiguous question, see two interpretations above.)

> If so, would you mind sharing the URL and what other support
> components are you using (e.g, UCW, mod_lisp)?

Just regular CGI under Apache here.
To see the overall HTTP server configuration as viewed by PHP:
<http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/phpinfo.php> = <? phpinfo(); ?>
Let me know if that doesn't answer all your questions about HTTP
server configuration here, if you know a way I can get the
additional info you seek. In particular, there's mod_macro but no
mention of mod_perl or mod_php or even mod_cgi in that report, and
I don't know whether that's because phpinfo doesn't report that
info, or phpinfo *does* report that kind of info but neither
mod_perl nor mod_php is installed here and CGI is built into Apache
without need of any mod_cgi. CGI is explicitly mentionned in the
report, but perl isn't, so maybe mod_perl isn't installed here and
perl is instead running as an ordinary CGI application with a
brand-new start-up of the perl interpretor for each HTTP/CGI
request that tries to run a script starting with #!/usr/bin/perl
A few months or years ago /etc/motd used to mention something about
mod_perl or mod_php, but that info has been removed for a long time
and I don't remember the details of what it used to say.

By the way, timing evidence seems to indicate that re-starting the
same Unix-level application (such as CMUCL) several times in a row
is much faster than the first time that same application has been
started after a long time of not using it. I'm guessing that's
because most of the often-used pages of the core-image (and also
any lisp or fasl files it loads after startup) are already swapped
from disk into disk-cache and/or RAM if the application has been
running recently. Thus mod_lisp isn't really necessary for
efficient operation under medium load, plain old CGI is good
enough. Still PHP ought to be even faster, both the first time and
also repeat times.

When time permits I plan to write some distributed applications
that pass public-key encrypted+signed data objects across the net
from one component to another, typically between CGI or PHP
applications running on this FreeBSD shell account and others
running on a Ubuntu shell in the UK.

Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t

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Dec 8, 2008, 1:46:13 PM12/8/08
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> From: Lars Rune =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=F8stdal?= <larsnost...@gmail.com>

> http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb
> ..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..

This Web site seems to really be based on JavaScript, not Lisp.
When I go there using lynx, I see a blank screen with one non-blank line:
JavaScript needs to be enabled.
Please fix your Web site to use Lisp instead of JavaScript for the
work, so that it will be usable from here. Then get back to me on
the topic below:

> ..it is in Norwegian:
> S=C3=B8k =3D Search
> Etternavn =3D Last name
> Fornvan =3D First name
> Fritekst =3D Free text
> =20
> Nytt s=C3=B8k =3D New search
> Neste side =3D Next page
> Forrige side =3D Previous page
(The Unix program 'more' generated the hexadecimal codes above from
non-USASCII bytes in your newsgroup article. I have software to
parse those 'more' codes to produce the correct 8-bit bytes you
actually posted, then to diagnose whether that's UTF-8 or Latin-1
encoding, then convert either to UniCodePoints, then convert any
that it knows to brace pictures and the rest to {u+xxxx} notation,
but it's not handy at the moment.)

That's close enough to German/Dutch roots that it's actually not
terribly difficult to learn. I currently have Web-based CAI to
teach English Spanish and Mandarin (pinyan), and am planning to
include Chinese characters also. Since several active/productive
people on the net are Norwegian, and the composer of two of my
three most-favorite classical works (Piano concerto, Sonata) is
also Norwegian, maybe you could (after you figure out how to make
your Web sites lynx-compatible) help me include Norwegian? Note
that for Spanish I already have invented what I call "brace
pictures" to represent accented Latin-1 and other characters within
US-ASCII text, in order to make languages with accented characters
(Spanish, French, German, and also now Norwegian perhaps)
accessible to US-ASCII browsers such as I use here. See
<http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/es1.html>
for my ask-for-help (for English/Spanish translation pairs) plea,
which allows you to choose to get output in either UTF-8 or brace
pictures, so that you can see what I'm talking about, what I mean
by "brace pictures".

OT: I'm also trying to figure out a good system for entering
Chinese characters if you know what a character looks like but you
don't know how it is pronounced, such as might be useful if you see
something in a Chinese newspaper (hardcopy) and wish to have it
translated to English. Such an entry system would also be useful in
a CAI program that requires you to draw the Chinese character that
has a specified/given meaning, to prove you really know that
character, rather than using multiple-choice where you might just
guess which of the five characters is the correct one by
eliminating the other four you already know have other meanings.
The Chinese-character input system installed on MS-Windows requires
you type the pinyan in order to generate the character, which is of
no use if you don't know how the character is pronounced. A rough
idea of one way to do it is sketched here, selecting strokes one by
one, by multiple choice, to build a character:
<http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/ChineseInput/start1.html>
An alternative idea I haven't prototyped yet, because it requires a
PHP or CGI application that is rather "smart", which requires more
work than I have time for currently, would be for the user to check
just the corners of a new stroke and have the program guess how to
"connect the dots" from upper/left to bottom/right to draw the new
stroke. On graphics browser with mouse, checking corners would be
best for the user, but in lynx or on cellphone with only
cursor-stepping and type-in, multiple-choice would be best. I
wonder if anyone can think of an even better idea for either kind
of browser platform?

VOT: Really stupid brainwork: Some church in Germany, shown on
DW-TV just now, planted a tree upside down, but it grew, and now
the church claims that's proof of life after death.

anonymous...@gmail.com

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Dec 8, 2008, 1:54:17 PM12/8/08
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My wet dream would be to use lisp as if it were a java applet.

Dimiter "malkia" Stanev

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Dec 8, 2008, 2:07:06 PM12/8/08
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anonymous...@gmail.com wrote:
> My wet dream would be to use lisp as if it were a java applet.

There is Kamen Lisp:

http://www.progmatism.com/software/kamen/index.php

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Dec 8, 2008, 5:36:35 PM12/8/08
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On Mon, 2008-12-08 at 10:46 -0800, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
wrote:

> > From: Lars Rune =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=F8stdal?= <larsnost...@gmail.com>
> > http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb
> > ..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..
>
> This Web site seems to really be based on JavaScript, not Lisp.

No. The application is written in 100% Lisp. There is not a single line
of custom or inlined or whatever JS-code in that application. It is all
done using manipulation of higher-level Lisp "widgets" (CLOS instances).


> When I go there using lynx, I see a blank screen with one non-blank line:
> JavaScript needs to be enabled.

This is obviously not written for the "Lynx platform" in particular. I'm
targeting the W3C platform, and it includes the NOSCRIPT tag among other
things:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/scripts.html#h-18.3.1

I'm not going to say I follow W3C and ECMA (JavaScript-standard) 100% in
all places (yet..(#1)), but I'm close and I have 99% coverage (IE, FF,
webkit, Opera) when I do not do URL-manipulation like I do in this
particular application. URL-manipulation like done in this one only
works in FF and IE for now(#2); that's around 92-95% coverage depending
on where you look.

> Please..

No. You have already freely voted with your browser and you ended up at
0.1%; the application is explicitly informing you of this via the
NOSCRIPT feature. Others have voted with their browsers (which _have_
proper W3C and ECMA support; good things wrt. competition
(Flash/Silverlight) and what people actually want wrt. the Internet) and
they ended up at 99% and they are also paying (voting, again) me money.


> ..use Lisp instead of JavaScript for the..

The application is written in 100% Lisp. The (interesting) JavaScript is
generated by a Lisp library. I include a static jquery.js file (not
interesting) to get rid of some of the browser-bugs; again, the rest,
the actual application stuff, is generated dynamically 100% by Lisp.


> ..work, so that it will be usable from here.

No. _You_ get to work for me now! I want you to write an application for
me which, in real-time, presents numeric data from sensors placed around
in this facility we have here. I'd like to have a UI that lets one
create alarms that trigger on user-defined thresholds etc. It should
work in IE, FF and webkit-based browsers (Chrome/Safari). It must scale
reasonably well. I want this by the end of this month.

http://sw.nostdal.org/pg-888


Stuff like this is what Some Interesting People want from applications
(not web-documents, but web-applications). They do not care about what
_you_ want or prefer. ..but you do get to use Lisp.


#1: ..and W3C as a platform is evolving; I'm working "close to the
edge" in some places. I know I'm sloppy with the already
well-defined or implemented details wrt. standards in some places,
those are bugs, not features; opposite of NOSCRIPT, which is a
feature.

#2: Note that this is caused by browser bugs; it is supposed to work
based on W3C/ECMA standards.

..i don't have time to respond to the rest of your post .. there are
many ways to read mouse events and generate graphics based on this..

Kaz Kylheku

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Dec 8, 2008, 6:01:11 PM12/8/08
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On 2008-12-08, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t

<seeWeb...@teh.intarweb.org> wrote:
>> From: Lars Rune =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=F8stdal?= <larsnost...@gmail.com>
>> http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb
>> ..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..
>
> This Web site seems to really be based on JavaScript, not Lisp.

You have to send Javascript to a browser, because that's what they understand
as a scripting language. Javascript is needed to have some semi-intelligent
behavior in form widgets and the like.

You could send Lisp in the HTTP response, but it wouldn't do much good, would
it, now?

Javascript in the output of a website doesn't imply that the server is
executing Javascript, any more than HTML in the output implies that the server
is executing HTML.

If he removed the Javascript, would you believe that the site is HTML-based
rather than Lisp-based?

Doh?

Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t

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Dec 9, 2008, 1:37:39 AM12/9/08
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> From: Sasha Kovar <sasha-...@arcocene.org>
> http://toonlet.com

OK, I clicked on that URL, which took me to a page that looks like
what I've shown here:
<http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/BadWebSites/toonlet1.txt>
I don't see any explanation of the purpose of the Web site, nor any
link for "About this site" or any such, so I decided my best plan
would be to click on this link:
Linkname: take the tour!
URL: http://toonlet.com/tour
That takes me to a page that looks like what I've shown here:
<http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/BadWebSites/toonlet2.txt>
It says "CLICK THE SINGLE-ARROW HERE, AND WE'LL GET STARTED."
but I don't see anything that looks like an arrow, so I don't know
how to get started with the "tour".

> Sasha

Are you the "queen bee" in an early episode of Smallville?
How do you measure the covariance of a swarm of bees?
Are you related to Tovar, my partner in the SpaceWar team tournament?

Pascal J. Bourguignon

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Dec 9, 2008, 4:59:00 AM12/9/08
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anonymous...@gmail.com writes:

> My wet dream would be to use lisp as if it were a java applet.

Can't we use ABCL or CLforJava to write Java applets?
I'd have a couple of applets I could write in Lisp...

--
__Pascal Bourguignon__

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Dec 9, 2008, 6:34:14 AM12/9/08
to
On Mon, 2008-12-08 at 22:37 -0800, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
wrote:


Here, here,
Look at The Lispers. This is how they support their peers who actually
use Lisp for something which is actually made use of in the real world.

Next, you'll be telling me/us how I/we do not understand (you):

http://www.tipping-point.no/Portals/0/pus_loeve.jpg


..place this in your ~rem/bad-binary-file-thingies/ folder for later.

Madhu

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Dec 9, 2008, 9:14:46 AM12/9/08
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* Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228775795.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
Wrote on Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:36:35 +0100:

|
| No. _You_ get to work for me now! I want you to write an application for
| me which, in real-time, presents numeric data from sensors placed around
| in this facility we have here. I'd like to have a UI that lets one
| create alarms that trigger on user-defined thresholds etc. It should
| work in IE, FF and webkit-based browsers (Chrome/Safari). It must scale
| reasonably well. I want this by the end of this month.
|
| http://sw.nostdal.org/pg-888

I can't see this --- not going to enable JS to see it.

None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
you are using lisp for.

Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?

--
Madhu

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Dec 9, 2008, 10:35:16 AM12/9/08
to
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 19:44 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228775795.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> Wrote on Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:36:35 +0100:
>
> |
> | No. _You_ get to work for me now! I want you to write an application for
> | me which, in real-time, presents numeric data from sensors placed around
> | in this facility we have here. I'd like to have a UI that lets one
> | create alarms that trigger on user-defined thresholds etc. It should
> | work in IE, FF and webkit-based browsers (Chrome/Safari). It must scale
> | reasonably well. I want this by the end of this month.
> |
> | http://sw.nostdal.org/pg-888
>
> I can't see this ---

Yeah, this is by design.


> None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
> you are using lisp for.
>
> Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?

No, it is like this: "CAN USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES".

Oh, and get back to me when you've implemented the equivalent of SW and
its running examples without using JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap". I've
added an (incomplete!) "Features" list on the SW page now:

http://groups.google.com/group/symbolicweb

Madhu

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Dec 9, 2008, 11:33:29 AM12/9/08
to

* Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228836916.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
Wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:35:16 +0100:

Luckily I'll not be seeing it as I can't stand dealing with google
groups web interface

--
Madhu

PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Dec 9, 2008, 12:25:23 PM12/9/08
to

here is a snapshot (but i'm still working on this text):


* Ability to manipulate HTML attributes, CSS properties and add
both server and/or client side callbacks for DOM events in
real-time directly via the REPL or anywhere in application
(lisp) code. There is no HTTP request or response to think
about. No page refresh is needed to see updates.
* Instead of manipulating HTML and CSS directly, one can use the
already existing widgets in SW or there is machinery in place to
create ones own widgets. The widgets maintain state on page
refresh or when they are removed from the UI and added back
again. Again no page refresh is needed to see updates.
* Support for browser back button and browser history. Widget
state can be serialized to the browser URL, then be serialized
back the other way as the user presses the back and forward
buttons in the browser. Continuations is not used to do this.
* Ability to bookmark or link to the state of an application or a
user-defined set of widgets.
* A single widget instance can be visible in multiple browsers,
browser windows or tabs at the same time. Sharing a container
widget between multiple users is an example of this. The
container might function as a chat-pane or tab in a chat
application, and as new child nodes or messages are added to
this container they become visible for all users viewing this
shared container widget. This happens in real-time, again with
no page-refresh needed.
* Provides an (optional) work-around with regards to the two
connection limit of HTTP.
* Ability to transmit custom JavaScript code from the server to
the client at any time.
* MVC-support. A change to a Model updates any Viewers of it in
real-time. No page-refresh needed. See the example above.
* All widgets and HTML/CSS properties (values in forms etc.) of
any active user/session/browser-tab can be inspected and
manipulated at any time. Still no page-refresh needed.
* It scales. The brand new SW-HTTP back-end has been tested with
20 000 concurrent full-duplex ("Comet") connections.


> --
> Madhu
>
> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time

no, you may do it without javascript if you wish

Kenny

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Dec 9, 2008, 1:00:54 PM12/9/08
to

Hey, looks like you have been busy. Congrats on trotting out SW-HTTP,
might be time for me to take a.... wait. this is comp.lang.lisp...

What, no Cells? And I have to use a /browser/? Hellloooooooo?

hth,kxo

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Dec 9, 2008, 3:49:53 PM12/9/08
to
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 13:00 -0500, Kenny wrote:

> Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
> >
> > here is a snapshot (but i'm still working on this text):
> > ....*snip*....
> >
>
> Hey, looks like you have been busy. Congrats on trotting out SW-HTTP,
> might be time for me to take a....

Yeeaaah .. hm .. it should be possible to port SW-HTTP to ACL, LW or
CLISP.

Meanwhile SW will be going into "cleanup-mode". There is a ton of cruft
I can get rid of now. The example code snippets needs a couple of
updates and fixes (mostly search-and-replace stuff...).


> wait. this is comp.lang.lisp...

...I keep forgetting... crash-site filled with zombies :/


> What, no Cells?

Not yet. Can't you get some of your minions or hounds to port SW-HTTP?
Then you can integrate Cells exactly as you want it. Comet included.

..I'm probably greenspunning parts of Cells in some places now.


> And I have to use a /browser/? Hellloooooooo?

rofl, yeah... There is a storm and I'm fighting windmills coming from
all directions.

It is probably a mistake; even if I "win" (or "lose"!) some argument on
teh Interwebz .. it doesn't matter in the end. _My_ Lisp software needs
a UI. It's that simple, and it'll happen no matter what.

Pascal J. Bourguignon

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Dec 9, 2008, 6:00:10 PM12/9/08
to
Kaz Kylheku <kkyl...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2008-12-08, Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
> <seeWeb...@teh.intarweb.org> wrote:
>>> From: Lars Rune =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=F8stdal?= <larsnost...@gmail.com>
>>> http://varefalne.no/ runs on SymbolicWeb
>>> ..this one really only runs on FF and IE based browsers for now..
>>
>> This Web site seems to really be based on JavaScript, not Lisp.
>
> You have to send Javascript to a browser, because that's what they understand
> as a scripting language. Javascript is needed to have some semi-intelligent
> behavior in form widgets and the like.
>
> You could send Lisp in the HTTP response, but it wouldn't do much good, would
> it, now?

Unless you included in your html a:

<script language="javascript" type="text/javascript" link="/common-lisp.js">

and if you take care to cross-compile this common-lisp.js from a
common-lisp.lisp with another CL implementation, then you can even claim
that your web site is 100% lisp.

> Javascript in the output of a website doesn't imply that the server is
> executing Javascript, any more than HTML in the output implies that the server
> is executing HTML.
>
> If he removed the Javascript, would you believe that the site is HTML-based
> rather than Lisp-based?
>
> Doh?

Still, we would like to have Lisp in the browser, and Lisp applets. We
have lisp in the kernel (the schemix module), and people can be
persuaded to install flash plug-ins so why not a lisp plug-in?


;-)

--
__Pascal Bourguignon__

Raffael Cavallaro

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Dec 9, 2008, 6:37:40 PM12/9/08
to
On 2008-12-09 18:00:10 -0500, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J.
Bourguignon) said:

> Still, we would like to have Lisp in the browser, and Lisp applets. We
> have lisp in the kernel (the schemix module), and people can be
> persuaded to install flash plug-ins so why not a lisp plug-in?

Maybe a hybrid of ecl and Google's Native Client?


--
Raffael Cavallaro, Ph.D.

Kaz Kylheku

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Dec 9, 2008, 7:10:33 PM12/9/08
to
On 2008-12-09, Pascal J. Bourguignon <p...@informatimago.com> wrote:
> Still, we would like to have Lisp in the browser, and Lisp applets. We
> have lisp in the kernel (the schemix module), and people can be
> persuaded to install flash plug-ins so why not a lisp plug-in?

They can! Just put up a dialog box saying ``You're seconds away from
viewing the porn; just click OK to install the codec''.

Madhu

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Dec 9, 2008, 8:11:33 PM12/9/08
to

* Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228843522.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
Wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 18:25:23 +0100:

|> |
|> |> None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
|> |> you are using lisp for.
|> |>
|> |> Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?
|> |
|> | No, it is like this: "CAN USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES".
|> |
|> | Oh, and get back to me when you've implemented the equivalent of SW and
|> | its running examples without using JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap". I've
|> | added an (incomplete!) "Features" list on the SW page now:
|> |
|
| * Ability to manipulate HTML attributes, CSS properties and add
| both server and/or client side callbacks for DOM events in
| real-time directly via the REPL or anywhere in application
| (lisp) code. There is no HTTP request or response to think
| about. No page refresh is needed to see updates.
etc. etc.

These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
the orignial application that you were giving Maas?

I'm sure the requirements, if genuine (i.e. if the requirements did not
include "Must use Web2.0"), can be solved without using your framework
or using the technologies which your framework implements, which makes
this list irrelevant.

|> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
| no, you may do it without javascript if you wish

No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
ads/etc

--
Madhu

Patrick May

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Dec 9, 2008, 8:18:50 PM12/9/08
to
p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) writes:
> Still, we would like to have Lisp in the browser, and Lisp applets.

Laplets?

I'll get my coat.

pjm

------------------------------------------------------------------------
S P Engineering, Inc. | Large scale, mission-critical, distributed OO
| systems design and implementation.
http://www.spe.com/pjm | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, middleware, SOA)

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Dec 9, 2008, 9:00:04 PM12/9/08
to
On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 06:41 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228843522.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> Wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 18:25:23 +0100:
> |> |
> |> |> None of what youve stated seems to REQUIRE any of the Web2.0 technolgies
> |> |> you are using lisp for.
> |> |>
> |> |> Is there any requirement other than "SHOULD USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES"?
> |> |
> |> | No, it is like this: "CAN USE WEB2.0 TECHNOLOGIES".
> |> |
> |> | Oh, and get back to me when you've implemented the equivalent of SW and
> |> | its running examples without using JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap". I've
> |> | added an (incomplete!) "Features" list on the SW page now:
> |> |
> |
> | * Ability to manipulate HTML attributes, CSS properties and add
> | both server and/or client side callbacks for DOM events in
> | real-time directly via the REPL or anywhere in application
> | (lisp) code. There is no HTTP request or response to think
> | about. No page refresh is needed to see updates.
> etc. etc.
>
> These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
> the orignial application that you were giving Maas?

Uh, are you asking for the post?


> I'm sure

..you're wrong.


> |> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
> | no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
>
> No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
> website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
> the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
> ads/etc

Yeah, you'll have to figure out a way to "deliver ads" using HTML with
no JavaScript. comp.lang.lisp wins again.

What .. the .. fuck. Do you people want?

Madhu

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Dec 9, 2008, 9:11:28 PM12/9/08
to

* Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228874404.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:00:04 +0100:

|> These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
|> the orignial application that you were giving Maas?

| Uh, are you asking for the post?

You've only given how YOU solved the problem. I can show you a better
way to solve it.

|> I'm sure
|
| ..you're wrong.

Whatever. I see no real requirements worth addressing.

|> |> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
|> | no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
|>
|> No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
|> website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
|> the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
|> ads/etc
|
| Yeah, you'll have to figure out a way to "deliver ads" using HTML with
| no JavaScript. comp.lang.lisp wins again.

It appears your job is to force everyone to use javascript, and making
it more ubiquitous, make no mistake any rewards you receive are for
accomplishing this task and not for solving some engineering problem
(with lisp, say)

| What .. the .. fuck. Do you people want?

uhhhh. i dont know. Avoid wasting time getting sucked in to your
"Framework"? Stop you from wasting our time with junk and making
irrelevant claims made here?

--
Madhu

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Dec 9, 2008, 9:27:04 PM12/9/08
to
On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 07:41 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228874404.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:00:04 +0100:
>
> |> These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
> |> the orignial application that you were giving Maas?
>
> | Uh, are you asking for the post?
>
> You've only given how YOU solved the problem. I can show you a better
> way to solve it.

Then do it.


>
> |> I'm sure
> |
> | ..you're wrong.
>

> Whatever. I see no...

Yes, you see nothing.


> |> |> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
> |> | no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
> |>
> |> No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
> |> website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
> |> the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
> |> ads/etc
> |
> | Yeah, you'll have to figure out a way to "deliver ads" using HTML with
> | no JavaScript. comp.lang.lisp wins again.
>
> It appears your job is to force everyone to use javascript, and making
> it more ubiquitous, make no mistake any rewards you receive are for
> accomplishing this task and not for solving some engineering problem
> (with lisp, say)

It appears your job is to force everyone to use HTML, and making it more


ubiquitous, make no mistake any rewards you receive are for
accomplishing this task and not for solving some engineering problem

(with lisp, say).

> | What .. the .. fuck. Do you people want?
>
> uhhhh. i dont know.

Exactly.

Madhu

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Dec 9, 2008, 9:42:48 PM12/9/08
to
* Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228876024.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:27:04 +0100:

| On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 07:41 +0530, Madhu wrote:
|> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228874404.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
|> Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:00:04 +0100:
|>
|> |> These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
|> |> the orignial application that you were giving Maas?
|>
|> | Uh, are you asking for the post?
|>
|> You've only given how YOU solved the problem. I can show you a better
|> way to solve it.
|
| Then do it.


Where is the problem?

I've been asking for the requirements of the sensor network application
you said you had. I havent seen any of that.

Instead the problems I see being being addressed are on the lines of

"HOW DO I SELL ADS ON BEHALF OF MY GOOGLE MASTERS ON THEIR WEBSITES BY
DISPLAYING MY CONTENT" or "HOW DO I FORCE EVERY USER TO USE THIRD PARTY
CLIENT SOFTWARE THEY HAVE LITTLE CONTROL OVER" "HOW DO I GET THE USER TO
GO AW GEE I LOOKED" "HOW DO I GET CUSTOMERS TO CLICK ON GOOGLE WEBSITES"

I'm through.
--
Madhu

Madhu

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Dec 9, 2008, 9:46:20 PM12/9/08
to

* Madhu <m3zlj4b...@moon.robolove.meer.net> :
Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:12:48 +0530:

| | Then do it.
|
| Where is the problem?
|

Don't bother replying, because I'm not interested anymore. I usually
ask three times before giving up, and I've asked more than that here

--
Madhu

Kenny

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Dec 9, 2008, 9:50:45 PM12/9/08
to
Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 13:00 -0500, Kenny wrote:
>
>>Lars Rune Nøstdal wrote:
>>
>>>here is a snapshot (but i'm still working on this text):
>>>....*snip*....
>>>
>>
>>Hey, looks like you have been busy. Congrats on trotting out SW-HTTP,
>>might be time for me to take a....
>
>
> Yeeaaah .. hm .. it should be possible to port SW-HTTP to ACL, LW or
> CLISP.
>
> Meanwhile SW will be going into "cleanup-mode". There is a ton of cruft
> I can get rid of now. The example code snippets needs a couple of
> updates and fixes (mostly search-and-replace stuff...).
>
>
>
>>wait. this is comp.lang.lisp...
>
>
> ...I keep forgetting... crash-site filled with zombies :/
>

yes, quite the ship of fools, great fun for hanging out, not so much for
serious Lisp.

>
>
>>What, no Cells?
>
>
> Not yet. Can't you get some of your minions or hounds to port SW-HTTP?
> Then you can integrate Cells exactly as you want it. Comet included.

That's OK, that was mock outrage, just trying to keep up with the other
denizens of this joint.

>
> ..I'm probably greenspunning parts of Cells in some places now.
>

Yep.

>
>
>>And I have to use a /browser/? Hellloooooooo?
>
>
> rofl, yeah... There is a storm and I'm fighting windmills coming from
> all directions.
>
> It is probably a mistake; even if I "win" (or "lose"!) some argument on
> teh Interwebz .. it doesn't matter in the end. _My_ Lisp software needs
> a UI. It's that simple, and it'll happen no matter what.
>

I recommend a quick trigger -- anyone who wants to argue, just move on.

I am swamped these days, but I'll try a quick build some day on ACL and
see what happens.

oh, btw: you just need a GUI? Then for the love of god stop sharing your
code /at all/. There are these factors of three... starts with sharing
it with /one/ person. By the time you get to open source it is 27 or 81,
I forget.

cheers.

kt

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Dec 9, 2008, 10:07:01 PM12/9/08
to
On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 08:12 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228876024.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:27:04 +0100:
>
> | On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 07:41 +0530, Madhu wrote:
> |> * Lars Rune Nøstdal <1228874404.29...@blackbox.nostdal.org> :
> |> Wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:00:04 +0100:
> |>
> |> |> These are all features of your framework. Where are the requirements of
> |> |> the orignial application that you were giving Maas?
> |>
> |> | Uh, are you asking for the post?
> |>
> |> You've only given how YOU solved the problem. I can show you a better
> |> way to solve it.
> |
> | Then do it.
>
>
> Where is the problem?

Where is the solution?


> Instead the problems I see being being addressed are on the lines of
>
> "HOW DO I SELL ADS ON BEHALF OF MY GOOGLE MASTERS ON THEIR WEBSITES BY
> DISPLAYING MY CONTENT"

Yes, how? How do you or they do this without "forcing everyone" to use
HTML, or JavaScript?


> or "HOW DO I FORCE EVERY USER TO USE THIRD PARTY
> CLIENT SOFTWARE THEY HAVE LITTLE CONTROL OVER"

Yes, how? You or I can do this, or you or I can not do this; both things
are possible.


> I'm through.

When did you start?


(i.e., you cannot "win" or "lose" this - because i do not care either
way)

Rob Warnock

unread,
Dec 9, 2008, 10:07:13 PM12/9/08
to
Lars Rune Nøstdal <larsn...@gmail.com> wrote:
+---------------

| Madhu wrote:
| > |> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
| > | no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
| >
| > No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
| > website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
| > the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
| > ads/etc
|
| Yeah, you'll have to figure out a way to "deliver ads" using HTML with
| no JavaScript. comp.lang.lisp wins again.
|
| What [do] you people want?
+---------------

For a website to deliver enough of its content *WITHOUT* requiring
that the user open his browser to JavaScript -- and thus open his
system to one of the largest malware vectors extant today -- so that
the user at least has a way to judge whether the content is valuable
enough to him to risk the exposure.

And, yes, I know that some media (e.g., SwF, YT, etc.) can't be
delivered without enabling JavaScript, but at least allow the user
access to the full *textual* content of the site [including navigation]
without it!!

Finally, delivering ads w/o JavaScript is trivial -- that non sequitor
don't hunt.


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock <rp...@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607

Lars Rune Nøstdal

unread,
Dec 9, 2008, 10:35:23 PM12/9/08
to
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 21:07 -0600, Rob Warnock wrote:

> Lars Rune Nstdal <larsn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +---------------
> | Madhu wrote:
> | > |> PS: If it *requires* javascript to be usable, its wasting your time
> | > | no, you may do it without javascript if you wish
> | >
> | > No, my point was the yardstick (for the discerning user) is that if a
> | > website is asking you to turn on javascript to deliver content, *you*
> | > the website is designed with intent to waste your time/bandwidth/deliver
> | > ads/etc
> |
> | Yeah, you'll have to figure out a way to "deliver ads" using HTML with
> | no JavaScript. comp.lang.lisp wins again.
> |
> | What [do] you people want?
> +---------------
>
> For a website to deliver enough of its content *WITHOUT* requiring
> that the user open his browser to JavaScript -- and thus open his
> system to one of the largest malware vectors extant today -- so that
> the user at least has a way to judge whether the content is valuable
> enough to him to risk the exposure.

Yes, some people want this, and the NOSCRIPT tag can be used for this.


> And, yes, I know that some media (e.g., SwF, YT, etc.) can't be
> delivered without enabling JavaScript

Hm, I'm pretty sure Flash ("media"?) runs without JavaScript enabled,
but the navigation or UI on some of these sites probably require
JavaScript, yeah.

Note that the example Madhu is looking for is not possible to do even
remotely proper without JavaScript, but this is not because Flash is
required or used.


> but at least allow the user access to the full *textual* content of
> the site [including navigation] without it!!

Yes, the NOSCRIPT tag again.

Rob Warnock

unread,
Dec 9, 2008, 11:44:53 PM12/9/08
to
Lars Rune Nøstdal <larsn...@gmail.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Rob Warnock wrote:
| > And, yes, I know that some media (e.g., SwF, YT, etc.) can't be
| > delivered without enabling JavaScript
|
| Hm, I'm pretty sure Flash ("media"?) runs without JavaScript enabled...
+---------------

Oops! Yes, it seems you're right. I'd never looked closely at
what SwF (Shockwave/Flash) requires, since I block it anyway[1],
but peeking at the source of a couple of simple cases it would
appear that all you need is a bit of HTML:

<object ... >
<param ... /> <!--- As needed... -->
<embed src="foo.swf" pluginspage={URL to get plugin} ... >
</embed>
</object>


-Rob

[1] I *hate* the user interface [or rather, the lack of one!].
Plus, it's not even *available* for the browser I use most. (*sigh*)

Lars Rune Nøstdal

unread,
Dec 10, 2008, 8:13:31 AM12/10/08
to
On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 21:07 -0600, Rob Warnock wrote:
> Finally, delivering ads w/o JavaScript is trivial -- that non sequitor
> don't hunt.

Wait; is this addressed at me?

This was exactly my point!

If your _goal_ is to "deliver ads" then it _might_ be possible to do it
the way you want to do it without JavaScript.

If your _goal_ is to deliver applications then it _might_ be possible to
do it the way you want(#1) to do it without JavaScript.

JavaScript makes both "good" and "bad" things easier to do, and in some
cases it makes the thing you're trying to do actually _possible_ to do.

Again; some things really are 100% impossible to do on the "W3C
platform" without JavaScript or "Web2.0 crap".


#1: But for applications, the "want" moves towards a "need" with an
added "there are no other options" to it.

dan

unread,
Dec 11, 2008, 6:11:34 AM12/11/08
to
> > I'm putting together a structured wiki that documents what languages,
> > frameworks, and libraries are used by various websites. One of the
> > goals of the wiki is to highlight the diverse set of languages and
> > other components that people can and do use to power their sites.
>
> <snip>
>
> > Does anyone here have a Lisp powered website? If so, would you mind
> > sharing the URL and what other support components are you using (e.g,
> > UCW, mod_lisp)?
>
> Thanks, to everybody who responded both to the group and over e-mail.
> As soon as I get a chance, I'll add all of the sites.

Sorry, for the delay in getting this stuff up. The final list is
posted at http://www.appliedstacks.com/PoweredBy/Lisp

The site itself is an open-edit structured wiki, so feel free to
expand or modify the entry for your site. To add a site, just type
http://www.appliedstacks.com/website/(name_of_the_site_to_add_goes_here)
in your address bar.

-Dan

Alessio Stalla

unread,
Dec 11, 2008, 6:36:58 AM12/11/08
to
On Dec 9, 10:59 am, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)
wrote:

> anonymous.c.lis...@gmail.com writes:
> > My wet dream would be to use lisp as if it were a java applet.
>
> Can't we use ABCL or CLforJava to write Java applets?
> I'd have a couple of applets I could write in Lisp...

Unfortunately, if something is written in Java not necessarily it can
be used as an applet. Applets have all sort of security restrictions,
which can be disabled only by manual intervention of the user (which
might be as easy as clicking an "accept" button, or as hard as
modifying .policy files inside the Java implementation - I don't know
the details).
Still, it could be worth trying to load ABCL/CLforJava as an applet,
and see how disastrously it crashes :) maybe it's not too hard to fix
(I'm not even thinking about it running as-is... it's pure science
fiction imho).
Applets do have the advantage that they're immediately available on
all Java-enabled browsers, while a browser plugin would need to be
implemented differently - potentially for every browser/platform
combination.

Alessio Stalla

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