First, the license terms.  I forget exactly what the issues were, but
it looked like I'd have to deal with lawyers before I could seriously
consider using it, or even parts of it, such as the XML parser.

Second, even though I'm an experienced Lisp programmer, the code was
dauntingly large and complex - and not well commented.  It looked like
it would be far easier for me to write an adequate server myself, from
scratch, than to understand CL-HTTP well enough so that I could use it
with confidence.  I couldn't take the chance that I'd find myself up
against a deadline while I was trying to fix some obscure bug.

So I wrote a little server myself in GCL (with some small amounts of
C code for select and a few other things), and I've been pretty happy
with it.

There are probably things I'd like to do that would be easier or
more elegant in CL-HTTP, but the effort required to get to the point
where I could do them was just too great.

  That's not it.  You just _don't_ slam someone's technical or
  professional _ethics_ because they charge a price _you_ don't want
  to pay, when others clearly think it's OK to pay what they want.

  The cost of an Allegro CL license should be nearly irrelevant to
  most software projects, apart from the ones that are losing money by
  design -- i.e., open source and hobbyist projects.  These have the
  ability to use the free Allegro CL Trial edition until they figure
  out that they need to make money.  Programmer time _really_ costs
  money.  Hardware and software does not.

  Wanting more for less is quite universal, but thinking that it gives
  those who want more than they get for less than they like a right to
  call someone else's desire for same "unworkable" _unilaterally_ is
  just plain stupid: Your demands as a cheap customer is just as
  "unworkable" to a vendor as you think their pricing is to you.  This
  goes for _everything_ in _any_ market.

I have as much right to point out problems with pricing and distribution
fees as you have to insult people for asking reasonable questions.

Another fact to consider for perspective is that there are other options;
LWW is *vastly* cheaper and doesn't charge distribution fees.  Maybe
I would consider ACL more workable if it was the only option.
However, it is not.

is my right for anything_in_any_market. :)

  What else do you know about that is not dominating the PC market?

| I know you like them and are unable to be objective on this subject,

  Wrong.  I'm not you, so you should be careful about extrapolating
  your own problems with being objective to me and others.

| but despite the very high startup costs to get the environment, you
| must also pay a substantial percentage of your gross profits when
| you distribute software written with their product.

  I know their policies better than you do (partly because I argue
  with Franz Inc over them all the time :) and I can tell you this:
  You do not get a right to post hurtful lies about people just
  because you disagree with them.  If you had to pay for the cost of
  recovering from people believing your lies, you would be run into
  the ground financially.  Relax and make the effort to engage your
  _brain_ when you read the license.  Above all, don't let emotional
  responses like "they're taking my food money!" overpower your
  reading skills and comprehension.  Franz Inc is _not_ the IRS.

| Also, there will be high fees if you run a server written with their
| product.  For the kinds of software it seems you do, these may not
| be major roadblocks.  For what I want to do, it's basically
| unacceptable.

  Your behavior towards me now and towards Franz Inc is unacceptable
  no matter how free it is, so clearly, money is _not_ an issue for
  you to behave morally reprehensibly.  Guess what: Other people don't
  change their behavior when they start to charge money for it, either.

| No, eric, what's stupid is your desire to defend something which is
| working for you in particular, while it may be good for you, and not
| good for someone else.

  That's "Erik".  I'm not _defending_ anything, I'm deflecting unfair
  criticism.  These are two very different tasks, but only people who
  care about fairness realize the fundamental difference.  I was
  showing you that being unilateral in such an issue is bad, but that
  was also before I knew what kind of person you are: You're the kind
  of person who thinks that when you work with or like someone, you
  lose your objectivity and you start to defend them as people, no
  matter what they _do_.  In my eyes, that means you are not the kind
  of person _anyone_ should be working with.  (Which also explains why
  you can't afford to pay for a license, but I digress.)

| I have as much right to point out problems with pricing and
| distribution fees as you have to insult people for asking reasonable
| questions.

  But you think you have much wider rights to insult people than I
  ever _imagined_ I had!  I don't protest your right to point out
  problems.  I point out a problem with the way you did it: That when
  you do so in unilateral ways, you're setting yourself up to be shot
  down because you're _unfair_ in your criticism.  I crack down on
  unfairness wherever and whenever I see it and I think I can make a
  difference and whoever the perpetrator is, even when it's our
  beloved government.  However, I think it's crucial to be fair when
  cracking down on unfairness and so I crack down publicly when the
  unfairness is public and privately when it is unfairness is private.
  Being unfair in public because of private gripes about pricing or
  policy is simply _unacceptable_.  (No, it doesn't matter what you
  think _I'm_ doing.  _You_ don't get better by finding somebody else
  you can throw dirt at.)

| > Your demands as a cheap customer is just as
| >   "unworkable" to a vendor as you think their pricing is to you.  This
| >   goes for _everything_ in _any_ market.
|
| That's a pretty stupid statement ( again ).

  You're proving to me that you're seriously lacking in objectivity,
  which is probably why you think others have to be similarly
  crippled.  Why are you hurting yourself by proving this?

| In fact, franz is the only compiler vendor which I can think of off
| hand which requires distribution fees for apps compiled with their
| product.

  What you can think of off hand or not is really nobody's business
  when you are as unable to think as you have demonstrated so far.

| I didn't get their stuff largely because of their pricing structure,
| which is my right for anything_in_any_market. :)

  Of course it is.  But you're doing the sour grapes thing by slamming
  the people whose products you didn't want to buy, and that is _not_
  a right you have or can assume will be defended.  If you don't want
  a product, actually _go_ elsewhere, don't linger and pout, OK?

  FWIW, I'm in constant talks with Franz Inc about ways to minimize
  the cost of licensing for small clients until they make real money.
  I have one customer who thinks just having to _discuss_ licensing
  terms is a serious turn-off, while money is not: They're paying
  _much_ more to Oracle for their database application and the ODBC
  drivers cost an arm and a leg, too.  My biggest client is a serious
  Sun and Oracle outfit and the Franz Inc license costs are not even a
  blip in the budget.  And we're already paying 50 times these costs a
  year to Microsoft for _their_ software and various development tools.

  So I wonder: Who do you people think you're kidding?  Business costs
  are supposed to be passed on to the _custumers_, and if not, to be
  assumed by your shareholders or other investors when you fold or get
  acquired by (more) competent people.  You're supposed to make money
  by being cleverer than the average bear, not lose it.  If you can't
  make enough money to pay a license fee, that means not even your
  _investors_ believe in you!  Don't take that out on Franz Inc, for
  crying out loud.

  What the software industry lacks is an easy way to go from hobbyist
  to real software developer in outfits that have real money to spend.
  As it is, we're looking at a very serious change of mindset and that
  will necessarily create much needless hostility, but when people who
  tend towards unfairness as a solution to their problems think they
  have a _right_ to engage in it because they disagree over pricing or
  licensing terms, there is no hope that they will grow a clue in the
  foreseeable future, either.

I think a much more plausible reason is that Lisp is a language which
requires a good deal of sophistication to appreciate, and that the
educational system is just dismally failing to produce people with the
sophistication to get it.  So let's do something positive and try and
fix *that* problem: go teach someone Lisp today!

1) Point them out, or
2) Admit you don't know what you're talking about.

Since all the rest of your post is your usual uninformed drool,
and not at all responding to what I said, I'm just ignoring it, and
waiting for someone to respond to what I actually did say.

  Thank you for confirming that you have a _personal_ problem with
  Franz Inc, which means we can expect more of the same and none of
  the anticipated, but not expected, reasoning that would limit the
  future amount of slander and negative propaganda against them.

  And what will you do when it has been pointed out?  Will you shut up
  and actually _stop_ lying and slandering people?  I didn't think so.

  "You must pay a substantial percentage of your gross profits" is a
  lie, pure and simple.  It would be a lie without "substantial", and
  it would be a lie without "gross".  It is of course a lie with the
  "must", as there are (a little too many) options on how to become a
  value added reseller or purchase an unlimited or number of runtime
  licenses with or without a compiler and/or development environment.
  As stated, the unequivocal

  Furthermore, "when you distribute software written with their
  product" is a lie.  It's not the software _you_ have _written_ with
  their product that they charge a license for, it's their own, which
  _you_ ship with _your_ product.  There is nothing at all in the
  license which prohibits writing the software with Allegro CL and
  shipping with something else.  There couldn't be.  Theirs is a
  commercial software license, not the GNU Public License, which
  _does_ incur such requirements as you seem to find "unworkable".

  You are a despicable liar, David Henley, but that's no surprise.

| Since all the rest of your post is your usual uninformed drool, and
| not at all responding to what I said, I'm just ignoring it, and
| waiting for someone to respond to what I actually did say.

  I see.  Your intellectual policy is to pretend that you have really
  awful enemies so you don't have to think, care, or be fair to them.
  That's why you have to make Franz Inc much worse than they really
  are, too.  This is called "demonization" and is a common "problem"
  with certain mental illnesses, such as rabid paranoia, "rabid" not
  being a clinical term, but applicable nonetheless.  Pleas find a
  mental health professional willing to lsiten and just get yourself
  cured, David -- this has nothing to do with Lisp, me, Franz Inc, or
  anything else even remotely connected to this newsgroup, anymore.

Erik Naggum wrote to David Hanley:

Also keep in mind that the competition from free and cheap software is
really tough.  Python is an excellent dynamic language with lots of
libraries, and it's completely free.  Java comes with one of the most
extensive standard libraries, good reflection capabilities, and good
enterprise support, and it's also essentially free.  And while VB is
iffy as a language, it comes with a good environment and does have
most of the dynamic language features most normal programmers will
ever need, and VB is also quite cheap.

Best Regards,

:) will

  But you are.  If you didn't want to argue, you could just be
  so kind as to refrain from slander and negative propaganda.

  Wouldn't you love that?  But it's quite simple: You explain what
  your _real_ problem with Franz Inc is, instead of continuing to
  slander them and hurting the entire Lisp community by causing
  unnecessary animosity between developer groups, and we don't need
  that.  You're _really_ wasting people's time when you do it.

  If I can waste your time so you don't continue to slander people and
  companies and create unnecessary animosity between developer groups,
  that's a _very_ good thing in my view.  So, I'm glad your time is
  wastable with such simple means.

still waiting for a response from the mental midget(you).