On Mar 3, 11:15 pm, Javier <javu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
ccl/openmcl
lisp threads are native threads compiler is ridiculously fast, everything is compiled runs on mac, windows, linux, 32 & 64 bit, intel and ppc has a mac ide w/ excellent cocoa integration excellent support from real lisp professionals with decades of experience - see <http://www.clozure.com/about.html> for a staff summary - quite impressive
On Mar 3, 8:15 pm, Javier <javu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
I like clisp, 'cause it's spunky and it sports a cool menorah on the splash screen. But its lack of threading bugs the hell out of me, so I've ended up using SBCL for the native threads on x86 Linux.
I also like Chicken, for purely aesthetic reasons. But, since that's a scheme environment, forget that I mentioned it...
Jason <jeme...@gmail.com> writes: > On Mar 3, 8:15 pm, Javier <javu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
> I like clisp, 'cause it's spunky and it sports a cool menorah on the > splash screen. But its lack of threading bugs the hell out of me, so > I've ended up using SBCL for the native threads on x86 Linux.
On the other hand, its lack of threading bugs should elate you rather.
> I also like Chicken, for purely aesthetic reasons. But, since that's a > scheme environment, forget that I mentioned it...
On Mar 4, 9:38 am, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) wrote:
> Jason <jeme...@gmail.com> writes: > > On Mar 3, 8:15 pm, Javier <javu...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
Javier <javu...@gmail.com> writes: > What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
SBCL, because it works very well with SLIME, because it's a full-scale high-quality compiler which still works well interactively, because it uses Unicode for text (unlike CMUCL), and because CLisp's pretty printer is broken.
+--------------- | What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why? +---------------
CMUCL, because it's solid [IME], has a good compiler, and its interpreter's design means that it's good for "scripting", too: it starts up *fast* [slightly faster than CLISP, actually, on the machines I use], and its interpreter does lazy analysis of DEFUN bodies [which is good if you have large scripts with a bunch of DEFUNs only a few of which get called on any single script invocation]. Its "green threads" are also well-integrated with standard CL stream I/O, and give you automatic non-blocking I/O when running multiple network connections at the same time [e.g., when using it as a web application server].
It has some downsides, but none of them currently affect me:
- Only has "green threads" [user-mode coroutines], so threading only uses a single CPU, and that only on the x86 platforms (Linux & BSD, mainly). [But all the platforms I currently run it on are single-CPU, x86 Linux or BSD.]
- Doesn't (yet) run on Windows. [But I don't do Windows.]
- Rebuilding is a bit tricky. [But I tend to run the "-RELEASE" binaries without ever rebuilding.]
-Rob
----- Rob Warnock <r...@rpw3.org> 627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/> San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Ecl, because it is full featured CL implementation that treats all platforms as first class, supports threads, creating native executables, nice ffi on all platforms. The only thing it lacks is more people using it, but it changes.
On Mar 3, 11:15 pm, Javier <javu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
SBCL. It's pretty stable on the Mac, I've gotten very good performance out of it, and it works well with SLIME. More importantly, though, I'm most familiar with it and now find it the most comfortable to use. However, my day job these days requires me to work on Windows machines, so if I have cause to use CL here, I'll probably shop around a bit.
Also, it's not a Common Lisp implementation, but PLT Scheme is pretty freaking cool.
Javier <javu...@gmail.com> wrote: > What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
sbcl:
- gives me best performance - reasonably safe and fast code by default - statistical profiler that works on Linux - reasonable debugging
I also use other implementations: clisp, Closure CL, ecl, gcl and Poplog clisp. clisp, ecl and gcl mostly for portability: AFAIK there are platforms where one of them works and all other Lisp implementations does not work (or at least inexperienced people trying to build other implementations failed). Closure CL gives me reasonable fast code (slower than sbcl -- the main reason is than sbcl profiler allows me to eliminate bottlenecks, while Closure CL on Linux does not provide statistical profiler so I do not know where are Closure CL specific bottlenecks) and very good compilation speed. Poplog clisp gives me low footprint and very fast compilation, but for me main attraction of Poplog is that beside Lisp it offers a few other languages.
In the past used cmucl, but now sbcl gives me similar features, and is more portable and more stable.
* Simple and easy to learn and use * Very well suited for metaprogramming:
- Macros are implemented as fexprs in old Lisps. Advantage: simpler, more expressive. Main argument against fexprs was that it is harder to write optimizing compilers. Newlisp is interpreter, so that disadvantage is not important. - First class macros. - Functions and macros are not the result of evaluation of the definitions, but definitions itself, can be analyzed and mutated during runtime. - Dynamic scope. - Unrestricted eval (access to local variables.) - Doesn't lose speed or increases size significantly if code contains lot of evals or macros calls.
* Still in development. * Friendly community.
Newlisp has other advantages and disadvantages, no doubt, but this is the answer why I use it. Majority of people seems to use it because it is good for "scripting."
> What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
I prefer Clojure. The reason is that it greatly improves my productivity and reduces the cost of development. It runs on all major plattforms and less work is needed to make it run well. The “Write once, run anywhere” is not 100% true, but still probably the best out of all plattforms.
André -- Lisp is not dead. It’s just the URL that has changed: http://clojure.org/
Waldek Hebisch wrote: > Javier <javu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
> sbcl:
> - gives me best performance > - reasonably safe and fast code by default > - statistical profiler that works on Linux > - reasonable debugging
> I also use other implementations: clisp, Closure CL, ecl, gcl > and Poplog clisp. clisp, ecl and gcl mostly for portability: AFAIK > there are platforms where one of them works and all other Lisp > implementations does not work (or at least inexperienced people > trying to build other implementations failed). Closure CL > gives me reasonable fast code (slower than sbcl -- the main > reason is than sbcl profiler allows me to eliminate bottlenecks, > while Closure CL on Linux does not provide statistical profiler > so I do not know where are Closure CL specific bottlenecks) > and very good compilation speed. Poplog clisp gives me low > footprint and very fast compilation, but for me main attraction > of Poplog is that beside Lisp it offers a few other languages.
> In the past used cmucl, but now sbcl gives me similar features, > and is more portable and more stable.
Where can I get the poplog distribution - I've googled, but became confused, at some point I thought it's commercial (although done in an university).
Javier wrote: > What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
I'm trying to use all open sourced lisps, simply for fun (but otherwise I do mostly use the commercial versions of LispWorks, Allegro and Corman - I've bought them all).
From the opensourced I do not have prefference, but I'm finding myself attached more and more to OpenCL, but I'm also regurarly checking out all others - ABCL, ECL, GCL, SBCL, CMUCL, etc.
I'm still learning Common Lisp (and various other Lisp) sanyway, so no problemo here.
I also like Clojure, but Arc never attracted me even much (though Paul Graham was the man that make me start reading about Lisp, after I read his Hackers & Painters book).
> Waldek Hebisch wrote: > > and very good compilation speed. Poplog clisp gives me low > > footprint and very fast compilation, but for me main attraction > > of Poplog is that beside Lisp it offers a few other languages.
> Where can I get the poplog distribution - I've googled, but became > confused, at some point I thought it's commercial (although done in an > university).
On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 04:32:53 -0600, <r...@rpw3.org> wrote: > Javier <javu...@gmail.com> wrote: > +--------------- >| What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why? > +---------------
> CMUCL, because it's solid [IME], has a good compiler, and its
moi aussi
> interpreter's design means that it's good for "scripting", too:
trying to setup crontabs with sbcl was a huge headache...too huge as it turned out.
> it starts up *fast* [slightly faster than CLISP, actually, on > the machines I use], and its interpreter does lazy analysis of > DEFUN bodies [which is good if you have large scripts with a > bunch of DEFUNs only a few of which get called on any single > script invocation]. Its "green threads" are also well-integrated > with standard CL stream I/O, and give you automatic non-blocking > I/O when running multiple network connections at the same time > [e.g., when using it as a web application server].
it's also currently faster than SBCL while number crunching. SSE3 vs 387 code, I guess unicode was deemed more important in sbcl.
> It has some downsides, but none of them currently affect me:
> - Only has "green threads" [user-mode coroutines], so threading > only uses a single CPU, and that only on the x86 platforms > (Linux & BSD, mainly). [But all the platforms I currently > run it on are single-CPU, x86 Linux or BSD.]
> - Doesn't (yet) run on Windows. [But I don't do Windows.]
> - Rebuilding is a bit tricky. [But I tend to run the "-RELEASE" > binaries without ever rebuilding.]
The binaries always rebuild themselves. In a few minutes of user time, I have a CMUCL that matches any libs in my system (i.e. openmotif) and picks up a little something from the CFLAGS. I can count on all legacy code to work as well as in the prior years.
On Mar 3, 8:15 pm, Javier <javu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
my fav is Emacs Lisp.
Because it is practical. More or less the most widely used lisp today.
Considered as a tool, it has probably some 10 times more users than either Common Lisp or Scheme Lisp.
For example, i consider emacs lisp, more powerful than Perl, as a text processing language, for 2 major reasons: (1) It has buffer datatype and associated datatypes such as point, marker, region, etc.. Which is more powerful than treating text as inert chars and lines, which Perl, Python, Ruby, etc do. (2) elisp's integrated nature with emacs. This means, for odd text manipulation jobs that happens daily in every software coding, i can write text processing programs that interact with me while i edit.
The above paragraph, details why i love emacs lisp. However, it is not so much about lisp language's nature. I find nothing in particular of lisp lang's features of emacs lisp that made me love emacs lisp, other than it being a functional language. It's more about how it happens that emacs has a embedded lang and that happens to be a lisp. It is not difficult to have another language, or a new editor with a embeded lang that functions similar to emacs, or a editor with a engine that supports multiple langs. However, emacs just happens to be almost the only one, or the most prominent one. (i am a expert in Microsoft Word in early 1990s, and although i haven't ventured into its Visual Basic, but i know it can do scripting. I'm sure, now after almost 20 years, and with Microsoft's “.NET”, it possibly might compete with emacs with its elisp, but i know nothing about it to comment further. (i'd very much welcome any comment from someone who are a expert of scripting Microsoft Word with Visual Basic; on how it compares to emacs, if at all. (if you don't have say 1 year of full-time experience in this, please spare me your motherfucking drivel)))
As to the reason i am not a fan of the 2 other major lisps: Common Lisp and Scheme Lisp. These 2, are little used in the industry. Common Lisp is a moribund dinosaur. Scheme Lisp is little used and is confined to Academia. There is nothing in these 2 langs that i consider elegant or powerful today. I would, in a blink of a eye, consider Mathematica, OCaml, Haskell, erlang, far more elegant or powerful.
I would like to see Common Lisp and or Scheme Lisp die a miserable, horrid, deaths, due to fanaticism as exhibited by Common Lisp and Scheme Lisp regulars in newsgroups. I consider these 2 langs not only impractical and inelegant, but their people are the hog of any possible progress of lisp in general.
I do consider lisp, or the lisp way, a lang with lisp characteristics, can be the most beautiful, elegant language. (in fact, i consider Mathematica being one such example) However, given the social milieu of the 3 major lisp communities: Common Lisp, Scheme Lisp, Emacs Lisp, it might happen when pigs fly.
--------------
Of the existing lisps, especially new ones, i support NewLisp, and i also support Clojure. Personally, i'm not likely to invest time in them in the next 5 years, if ever. Second to these, i mildly support Qi.
I was a avid fan of functional programing, and was a big fan of lisp too. Lisp, even just 10 years ago, was still a great language, almost the only one that are much better than all others, in both practical industry use and also academic theoretical considerations. But due to the rapid development of software technologies and vast number of lang today that happened in the past decade, including a profusion of quality functional langs, i see little point in lisp.
> On Mar 3, 11:15 pm, Javier <javu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
> ccl/openmcl
> lisp threads are native threads > compiler is ridiculously fast, everything is compiled > runs on mac, windows, linux, 32 & 64 bit, intel and ppc > has a mac ide w/ excellent cocoa integration > excellent support from real lisp professionals with decades of > experience - see <http://www.clozure.com/about.html> for a staff > summary - quite impressive
I recently switched to 64bits, so I probably test it out. Do you think it has got good Linux support?
Javier <javu...@gmail.com> writes: > Kenneth Tilton escribió: >> Javier wrote: >>> What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
>> CLisp. Better FFI, better MOP. Runs on more than 3% of the worlds >> computers.
>> kt
> Do you actually use it? For what?
I use it to develop lisp programs (better debugger), to write all my scripts, to run most of my lisp programs and servers.
(Only in some cases, when I want to use packages that run only on sbcl, do I run sbcl. And I'd think that once threading is completed in clisp, these packages will support it as well, and I could stay with clisp even more often).