The Stagnation of Lisp
Joe Marshall
At this point it has become pretty clear to me that comp.lang.lisp is
stagnating. Most, if not all, experienced lispers seem to be stuck in
a rut.
I think I have a solution: We need more input from people like
ilias.
The fact is that many of the posters in comp.lang.lisp not only code
lisp professionally, but have also been involved in the design of
Common Lisp through membership in X3J13. This level of familiarity
with the implementation and standardization process causes a warped
point of view that focuses too much on `compatability' and
`portability' and completely ignores the issues of pedantry and
minutae. They begin to think it more important to be able to write
code that can be run on *any* lisp system than to engage in the
dialectical process. I myself have been guilty of this by posting
actual output from several different lisp implementations rather than
relying on Aristotelian logic to arrive at a pure solution.
It is far too easy to fall into the trap of thinking of CLtL as a
synthesis of common practices and `experience' rather than what it
truly is: a standard by which all lisp implementations must be
measured and found wanting. (After all, a standard cannot be a
Platonic ideal if it is realizable!) So we end up with the local
`experts' dictating to us what does and does not work and how to write
code that caters to the lowest common denominator rather than
liberating ourselves by imagining that which *must be* by virtue of
rational argument from first principles.
Is conformance simply the absolute minimum set of expectations that
code and platform must meet to ensure interoperability? It is
precisely this narrow view that leads to assertions of the form `that
won't work' or `you must write code in *this* manner'. These
objections are *always* addressed to implementor of the code rather
than to the implementors of the language! Who is serving whom here?
Machines are tools, not masters and they don't have expectations.
Thus it is incumbent upon our tools to conform to our expectations
rather than requiring our code to conform to the machine's
`expectations'.
ilias has done us a favor by refusing to be dragged into the same
stagnant viewpoint that the majority of us have been comfortable with
for too long. He has challenged us by showing concrete examples of
code that by dint of pure reason *must* work. He has rejected the
much poorer approximation of code that simply *has worked* due to a
`gentleman's agreement' of the interpretation of the spec. I doff my
hat to him.
This isn't just a tirade; I have suggestions.
First, it seems that lisp vendors have slavishly adhered to a
`popular' (rather than pedantic) version of the standard. We need a
reference implementation that matches the expectations of the
programmer. I ask ilias to step forward to lead that implementation.
Second, while the bugs in reading and macro expansion are apparently
so widespread as to encompass *every* existing implementation, (in
fact, these bugs are codified in current experience), they are
*trivial* in relation to what may be lurking in other parts of the
specification. I ask ilias to focus his attention on these items in
particular
-- pathnames
Different lisps implement them differently on different
platforms. Clearly there can't be a single standard with
such diverse behavior. Most implementations are so poorly
written that logical pathnames only work on a very restricted
subset of actual files. Some implementations don't even support
hierarchical directories.
-- the package system,
especially in regards to how it interacts with variable lookup
-- the type system
-- tail recursion
The fact is that no one has come up with a satisfactory
specification as to how it is supposed to work. There is a crude
operational definition of `not pushing stack frames', but no
guidelines of where a conforming common lisp compiler must elide
them.
-- the meta-object protocol. `Reflection' is too complicated and
should be replaced with something that looks simpler.
-- LOOP
The Enlightenment ended ages ago.
It is time to bring Lisp into the post-modern age!
Friedrich Dominicus
> At this point it has become pretty clear to me that comp.lang.lisp is
> stagnating. Most, if not all, experienced lispers seem to be stuck in
> a rut.
>
> I think I have a solution: We need more input from people like
> ilias.
>
> The fact is that many of the posters in comp.lang.lisp not only code
> lisp professionally, but have also been involved in the design of
> Common Lisp through membership in X3J13.
There was a thread a week or two ago which was about the future Lisp
programmers. Many of them do not have been ever in touch with Lisp.
For me I'm using it for 1-2 years now. Using it more and more
intensively and so I'm not an old Lisper. So I would think that there
are not "so" many old time Lispers around I would think it'a quite
balanced.
>
> It is far too easy to fall into the trap of thinking of CLtL as a
> synthesis of common practices and `experience' rather than what it
> truly is: a standard by which all lisp implementations must be
> measured and found wanting. (After all, a standard cannot be a
> Platonic ideal if it is realizable!) So we end up with the local
> `experts' dictating to us what does and does not work and how to write
> code that caters to the lowest common denominator rather than
> liberating ourselves by imagining that which *must be* by virtue of
> rational argument from first principles.
I don't think this is the point. There is still ambiguoucity, and it's
often necessary to read at more points in the spec to find out if
things will work as thought. I read the term "language lawyer" e.g in
c.l.c. I guess some are around here too.
>
> ilias has done us a favor by refusing to be dragged into the same
> stagnant viewpoint that the majority of us have been comfortable with
> for too long. He has challenged us by showing concrete examples of
> code that by dint of pure reason *must* work. He has rejected the
> much poorer approximation of code that simply *has worked* due to a
> `gentleman's agreement' of the interpretation of the spec. I doff my
> hat to him.
Well he has done other things which let me stay away from those mega
threads.
Have a nice weekend
Friedrich
Thomas F. Burdick
> I think I have a solution: We need more input from people like
> ilias.
If this is supposed to be a joke, it's not funny.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
ilias
> Joe Marshall <j...@ccs.neu.edu> writes:
...
>>ilias has done us a favor by refusing to be dragged into the same
>>stagnant viewpoint that the majority of us have been comfortable with
>>for too long. He has challenged us by showing concrete examples of
>>code that by dint of pure reason *must* work. He has rejected the
>>much poorer approximation of code that simply *has worked* due to a
>>`gentleman's agreement' of the interpretation of the spec. I doff my
>>hat to him.
>
> Well he has done other things which let me stay away from those mega
> threads.
What i've done?
"other things", please specify.
I don't think that you are able to do that.
ilias
> Joe Marshall <j...@ccs.neu.edu> writes:
>
>>I think I have a solution: We need more input from people like
>>ilias.
>
> If this is supposed to be a joke, it's not funny.
You are right. It's not funny, if it is a joke.
Cause this would be *very* unfriendly against me.
I'm wondering that you care about me.
Thank you.
Marc Spitzer
have read all of it. And in such a delightful manor.
Very nicely done
marc
Will Deakin
> You are right. It's not funny, if it is a joke.
>
> Cause this would be *very* unfriendly against me.
a very serious matter where if people mock or jest you take it very
personally. This is terrible.
Maybe it is because I live in a place where constant mocking is taken is
in fact a sign of acceptance and like. For example: Today I was accused
of having a flagrant homosexual affair with a younger male collegue and
that I would be incapable of performing any useful or worthwhile task
ever. All before 10am.
Life is too serious to take seriously. Taking *yourself* seriously is
several order of magnitude worse.
:)w
ilias
eeeeh! stop!
look again at the trialogue
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> Joe Marshall <j...@ccs.neu.edu> writes:
>
Marshall
> I think I have a solution: We need more input from people like
> ilias.
>
Burdick:
> If this is supposed to be a joke, it's not funny.
Me:
> You are right. It's not funny, if it is a joke.
>
> Cause this would be *very* unfriendly against me.
>
> I'm wondering that you care about me.
>
> Thank you.
Do you really think that was a seriously response from me?
hint: Savages don't care.
Joe Marshall
ilias
never started.
Will Deakin
> Do you really think that was a seriously response from me?
your self up until now and have replied to me and a number of other
people who were pulling your leg that this was `unfriendly' behaviour.
> hint: Savages don't care.
Whatever.
:)w
JB
> Life is too serious to take seriously. Taking *yourself*
> seriously is several order of magnitude worse.
Sorry, but I cannot resist:
"Ich wohne in meinem eignen Haus,
Hab nie niemandem nichts nachgemacht
Und lachte noch jeden Meister aus,
Der nicht sich selber ausgelacht."
Nietsche
At least Tim B. will understand this as he had German at
school.
--
J.... B....
-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----
ilias
> ilias wrote:
>
>> Do you really think that was a seriously response from me?
>
> Yes. Since you have shown little or no signs of a sense of humour about
> your self up until now and have replied to me and a number of other
> people who were pulling your leg that this was `unfriendly' behaviour.
yes.
but
The Month is Past.
>
>> hint: Savages don't care.
>
> Whatever.
yes, right.
Savages don't care, whatever.
>
> :)w
>
>
ilias
Writing some truth helps.
Now which is truth and which is joke?
The readers decide.
I know one truth:
Lisp is Bleeding.
I know another truth:
You don't care.
And i know another truth:
I need some sleep.
Good everything.
Adam Warner
Very subtle and funny! For a moment I was sacred you were serious.
Regards,
Adam
Adam Warner
Very subtle and funny! For a moment I was scared you were serious.
Regards,
Adam
news.verizon.net
"JB" <j...@yahoo.de> wrote in message news:3d825...@news.newsgroups.com...
Friedrich Dominicus
>
> What i've done?
Useless.
>
> "other things", please specify.
No, I won't.
>
> I don't think that you are able to do that.
I hope I'm not able to do that. So thanks that you think I can't
Friedrich
Software Scavenger
> "Ich wohne in meinem eignen Haus,
> Hab nie niemandem nichts nachgemacht
> Und lachte noch jeden Meister aus,
> Der nicht sich selber ausgelacht."
> Nietsche
"Die Fröhliche Wissenschaft"
Daniel Barlow
> collegue and that I would be incapable of performing any useful or
> worthwhile task ever. All before 10am.
Sounds reasonable. I know _I'll_ never be capable of performing any
useful or worthwhile task before 10am
-dan
--
http://ww.telent.net/cliki/ - Link farm for free CL-on-Unix resources
Kaz Kylheku
> Thank you for reminding me to not reply to an article until after I
> have read all of it. And in such a delightful manor.
>
> Very nicely done
Wow, you read past the second paragraph?
Marc Spitzer
Not before I started replying to it.
marc
Reini Urban
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>> Joe Marshall <j...@ccs.neu.edu> writes:
>>> I think I have a solution: We need more input from people like
>>> ilias.
If this goes for the content, agreed.
If this goes for the form, disagreed.
>> If this is supposed to be a joke, it's not funny.
>
> You are right. It's not funny, if it is a joke.
> Cause this would be *very* unfriendly against me.
Because you are *very* unfriendly to us.
Most people know how to write news articles. You don't care. c.l.perl
for example would be much more unfriendly to you.
> I'm wondering that you care about me.
Because you are a pest and in a lot of people's killfiles probably. In
my killfile only those threads started by you, so I saw this one.
--
Reini Urban - Programmer - http://inode.at
ilias
> ilias schrieb:
>
>> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>
>>> Joe Marshall <j...@ccs.neu.edu> writes:
>>>
>>>> I think I have a solution: We need more input from people like
>>>> ilias.
>>>
>
> If this goes for the content, agreed.
> If this goes for the form, disagreed.
And what if the content relies on the form?
>
>>> If this is supposed to be a joke, it's not funny.
>>
>> You are right. It's not funny, if it is a joke.
>> Cause this would be *very* unfriendly against me.
>
> Because you are *very* unfriendly to us.
> Most people know how to write news articles. You don't care. c.l.perl
> for example would be much more unfriendly to you.
i'll may give them a try.
>> I'm wondering that you care about me.
>
> Because you are a pest and in a lot of people's killfiles probably. In
> my killfile only those threads started by you, so I saw this one.
Come on.
be strong.
Freedom for my threads.
Kill you killfile.
William Barnett-Lewis
> Come on.
>
> be strong.
>
> Freedom for my threads.
>
> Kill you killfile.
Ghu. I didn't think it was possible - someone stupider that Eric N.
Dude, your existance is a miracle as I didn't think brain capacity was
that limited. I'm sure the gentlefolks living in Vatican City would love
to meet you - you appear to be living proof that stupidity survives...
--
You better watch out What you wish for;
It better be worth it So much to die for.
Courtney Love
ilias
> ilias wrote:
>
>>Come on.
>>
>>be strong.
>>
>>Freedom for my threads.
>>
>>Kill you killfile.
>
>
> Ghu. I didn't think it was possible - someone stupider that Eric N.
> Dude, your existance is a miracle as I didn't think brain capacity was
> that limited. I'm sure the gentlefolks living in Vatican City would love
> to meet you - you appear to be living proof that stupidity survives...
Can i do anything else for you?
Erik Naggum
| Ghu. I didn't think it was possible - someone stupider that Eric N.
Amazing. That would be a moronic gratuitous insult only if I allow for your
inability to copy letters of the alphabet accurately. Hint for your future
needs to insult people because of your inferiority complex: Learn to spell
their names right. It makes you look so much brighter than, say, ilias.
--
Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
Raymond Wiker
> * William Barnett-Lewis
> | Ghu. I didn't think it was possible - someone stupider that Eric N.
>
> Amazing. That would be a moronic gratuitous insult only if I
> allow for your inability to copy letters of the alphabet
> accurately. Hint for your future needs to insult people because
> of your inferiority complex: Learn to spell their names right. It
> makes you look so much brighter than, say, ilias.
I may be wrong about this, but I thought he meant the
person who in the last few days posted with the fake address
er...@naggum.no. The articles were posted from a newsserver in the
rr.com domain, IIRC.
--
Raymond Wiker Mail: Raymon...@fast.no
Senior Software Engineer Web: http://www.fast.no/
Fast Search & Transfer ASA Phone: +47 23 01 11 60
P.O. Box 1677 Vika Fax: +47 35 54 87 99
NO-0120 Oslo, NORWAY Mob: +47 48 01 11 60
Try FAST Search: http://alltheweb.com/
Erik Naggum
| I may be wrong about this, but I thought he meant the person who in the last
| few days posted with the fake address er...@naggum.no.
That would be a charitable interpretation of someone who needs to publish
that kind of articles, but I guess you could be right. Even so, two tasteless
people do not good taste make. I cannot for the life of me figure out why
some people have to post gratuitously hostile comments about anyone.
| The articles were posted from a newsserver in the rr.com domain, IIRC.
RoadRunner has had at least one recurring forging, abusive troll and does
nothing to stop their abusive customers. I can only assume that it is the
criminal's choice ISP in Austin, Texas. Every city or major region seems to
have one of those and there is nothing one can do to stop them short of
cutting off their ability to inject articles into Usenet at all. Still, when
their customers misbehave so badly, just ignore them completely.
Frank A. Adrian
> I can only assume that [RoadRunner] is the criminal's choice ISP in
> Austin, Texas.
Actually, according to my server logs, they seem to be the "criminal's
choice ISP" wherever they seem to be located...
faa