This keyboard is one of the millions of superfluous cheap products beeing produced to be sold expensive. However, if this is the only reason for existence there are no limits in any creativity. Make some spoilers on them. And direction indicators. And make it pink for getting more girls onto a computer.
On Nov 23, 1:52 am, Torsten Mueller <dev-n...@shared-files.de> wrote:
> Who needs this?
> This keyboard is one of the millions of superfluous cheap products > beeing produced to be sold expensive. However, if this is the only > reason for existence there are no limits in any creativity. Make some > spoilers on them. And direction indicators. And make it pink for > getting more girls onto a computer.
> T.M.
i'm sorry to say, but when i read almost anything by programers about keyboarding, keybinding, in the past 10 years, 99% of them are purely idiotic to the extreme. I used harsh terms because the more i studied keyboard and all related issues, the more i see how extremely idiotic these opinions are.
Here's some examples:
• best way to avoid rsi is never to learn touch type. (expressed by Stephan Monnier (emacs maintainer), as well as keyboard maestro's author.)
• the swapping of Caps Lock and Ctrl on a normal standard keyboard is good idea. Expressed by many.
> i'm sorry to say, but when i read almost anything by programers about > keyboarding, keybinding, in the past 10 years, 99% of them are purely > idiotic to the extreme. I used harsh terms because the more i studied > keyboard and all related issues, the more i see how extremely idiotic > these opinions are.
> Here's some examples:
> • best way to avoid rsi is never to learn touch type. (expressed by > Stephan Monnier (emacs maintainer), as well as keyboard maestro's > author.)
> • the swapping of Caps Lock and Ctrl on a normal standard keyboard is > good idea. Expressed by many.
• Happy Hacker keyboard is a fantastic keyboard. (expressed by many, in particular Shawn Sabbets, author of ratpoison (a Linux tool that arranges all your windows without gaps))
• «I'm a programer. I never use the F1 F2 etc keys, and find those Media keys or extra app launching keys stupid.» This is seen often on programer forums or keyboard review sites such as amazon.
PS i think Stephen, Peter, Shawn are great coders, but just that some of their opinions on keyboard i find falling into common myth.
programer will be recalcitrant on their opinions about keyboard, because they'd say “i use it all my life!”. Yet, typically they never spend a hour to look into the actual field of keyboarding issues or field of study of ergonomics.
This situation is similar to for example pro mathematicians will admadantly claim some math notation issues, or love of TeX/LaTeX, like, “i should know because i work with it all my life”, yet their opinion being completely idiotic.
also similar, is lots of programers, who, over the years in their career, inevitably came to know several langs. So, they'll have bunch of extremely idiotic opinions on language design, syntax, and software engineering, terminologies, semantics. They'll be loud about it. Yet, they really don't know much of any of these fields as a dedicated study. e.g. they have never taken a day in their lifes, to actually study a article, or issue, about a syntax design as a subject by itself. Typically, what they've done instead, is like: «perl is like this, or lisp is like this, or i know Haskell this and OCaml that way, i've coded in them for 10 years, and i've taken a class about parsing in college, therefore, it should be X, i tell you!».
Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote: > > This keyboard is one of the millions of superfluous cheap products > > beeing produced to be sold expensive.
> i'm sorry to say, but when i read almost anything by programers > about keyboarding, keybinding, in the past 10 years, 99% of them are > purely idiotic to the extreme. I used harsh terms because the more i > studied keyboard and all related issues, the more i see how > extremely idiotic these opinions are.
Yes, but what has your answer to do with my statement? Exactly nothing.
This keyboard you made promotion for _is_ just idiotic itself, as well as Microsoft's "Natural Ergonomic Keyboard [1]" was. These things are no progress, they are indeed not even developped to reach any ergonomic goal or something. The one and only reason why they exist is making money with simple minded people believing in geeky lifestyle gadgets. And an important result of the last 20 years is the fact that big companies did indeed manage to _breed_ those people in a large number ... (This is one of the great secrets behind Apple's success.)
The summit of keyboard development was reached by IBM in the late 80s. Yes, that's 20 years ago. After this point in history _every_ further development was only made for commercial reasons.
On 2010-11-24 08:12:02 +0000, Torsten Mueller said:
> The summit of keyboard development was reached by IBM in the late 80s. > Yes, that's 20 years ago. After this point in history _every_ further > development was only made for commercial reasons.
I don't have an opinion on the ergonomicity question (I'm lucky that I don't get any significant RSI-type things, even though I use mostly keyboards which are obviously really nasty[*]), but some of those old IBM keyboards were indeed lovely I think. Older Sun (type 3 and before) were nice as well. For a long time I used to want to get one ad make some little 80xx-based converter to drive USB. I've given up now as I realise I'll never own a computer which isn't a laptop again.
--tim
[*] I think my approach of typing by hammering the keyboard with my fists & forehead until the right things come out may help with the RSI. It's a pain getting the bloodstains off though, and getting broken-off parts of keys embedded in your skull is an occupational hazard.
Tim Bradshaw <t...@tfeb.org> writes: > On 2010-11-24 08:12:02 +0000, Torsten Mueller said:
>> The summit of keyboard development was reached by IBM in the late 80s. >> Yes, that's 20 years ago. After this point in history _every_ further >> development was only made for commercial reasons.
> I don't have an opinion on the ergonomicity question (I'm lucky that I > don't get any significant RSI-type things, even though I use mostly > keyboards which are obviously really nasty[*]), but some of those old > IBM keyboards were indeed lovely I think. Older Sun (type 3 and > before) were nice as well. For a long time I used to want to get one > ad make some little 80xx-based converter to drive USB. I've given up > now as I realise I'll never own a computer which isn't a laptop again.
Since laptops are used 99% of the time on a desk, why not hook a separate keyboard to use them?
> [*] I think my approach of typing by hammering the keyboard with my > fists & forehead until the right things come out may help with the > RSI. It's a pain getting the bloodstains off though, and getting > broken-off parts of keys embedded in your skull is an occupational > hazard.
On Nov 23, 9:52 am, Torsten Mueller <dev-n...@shared-files.de> wrote:
> Who needs this?
> This keyboard is one of the millions of superfluous cheap products > beeing produced to be sold expensive.
This is by no means a cheap product: "The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard is manufactured using high-quality Cherry MX Mechanical Keyswitches, the highest quality keyswitches available on any computer keyboard." Now, we can argue about the Cherry MX switches being the best ones available, but we can't argue about them being high quality.
Tim Bradshaw <t...@tfeb.org> writes: > On 2010-11-24 08:12:02 +0000, Torsten Mueller said:
>> The summit of keyboard development was reached by IBM in the late 80s. >> Yes, that's 20 years ago. After this point in history _every_ further >> development was only made for commercial reasons.
> I don't have an opinion on the ergonomicity question (I'm lucky that I > don't get any significant RSI-type things, even though I use mostly > keyboards which are obviously really nasty[*]), but some of those old > IBM keyboards were indeed lovely I think. Older Sun (type 3 and > before) were nice as well. For a long time I used to want to get one > ad make some little 80xx-based converter to drive USB. I've given up > now as I realise I'll never own a computer which isn't a laptop again.
If you mean the (clicky) Model M keyboards, then the heir to these is available from Unicomp, with an option for USB.
The "Customizer 105"[1] with a USB connection is only $69, which makes it an absolute steal compared to any of the keyboards supplied with desktops from Dell, Hp, &c.
I have four of these, with one permanently connected to my Mac Pro.
> Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > This keyboard is one of the millions of superfluous cheap products >> > beeing produced to be sold expensive. >> i'm sorry to say, but when i read almost anything by programers >> about keyboarding, keybinding, in the past 10 years, 99% of them are >> purely idiotic to the extreme. I used harsh terms because the more i >> studied keyboard and all related issues, the more i see how >> extremely idiotic these opinions are. > Yes, but what has your answer to do with my statement? Exactly > nothing. > This keyboard you made promotion for _is_ just idiotic itself, as well > as Microsoft's "Natural Ergonomic Keyboard [1]" was. These things are > no progress, they are indeed not even developped to reach any > ergonomic goal or something. The one and only reason why they exist is > making money with simple minded people believing in geeky lifestyle > gadgets. And an important result of the last 20 years is the fact that > big companies did indeed manage to _breed_ those people in a large > number ... (This is one of the great secrets behind Apple's success.)
Have you actually tried any of these "ergonomic" keyboards? Have you ever suffered RSI from typing on a standard keyboard? If your answers to these questions are "no" (as mine are), you're not in a position to pass such comments.
> The summit of keyboard development was reached by IBM in the late 80s. > Yes, that's 20 years ago. After this point in history _every_ further > development was only made for commercial reasons.
> Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > This keyboard is one of the millions of superfluous cheap products > > > beeing produced to be sold expensive.
> > i'm sorry to say, but when i read almost anything by programers > > about keyboarding, keybinding, in the past 10 years, 99% of them are > > purely idiotic to the extreme. I used harsh terms because the more i > > studied keyboard and all related issues, the more i see how > > extremely idiotic these opinions are.
> Yes, but what has your answer to do with my statement? Exactly > nothing.
> This keyboard you made promotion for _is_ just idiotic itself, as well > as Microsoft's "Natural Ergonomic Keyboard [1]" was. These things are > no progress, they are indeed not even developped to reach any > ergonomic goal or something. The one and only reason why they exist is > making money with simple minded people believing in geeky lifestyle > gadgets. And an important result of the last 20 years is the fact that > big companies did indeed manage to _breed_ those people in a large > number ... (This is one of the great secrets behind Apple's success.)
> The summit of keyboard development was reached by IBM in the late 80s. > Yes, that's 20 years ago. After this point in history _every_ further > development was only made for commercial reasons.
> T.M.
> [1] nothing but a lie
Torsten, the Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard is the best keyboard ever and you're an idiot if you think otherwise. You should have to use the Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard.
> Now, we can argue about the Cherry MX switches being the best ones > available, but we can't argue about them being high quality.
Many years ago I had "Cherry" in mind as a name, as a notion of quality and stability. A year ago I bought a Cherry mouse quite because of this idea. But what I got was nothing but a letdown. This thing was really cheap plastic and did indeed not even work safely. You had to held this mouse in a specific way, otherwise you blocked the mouse keys with your fingers from coming up again after pressing. But I payed about 60 US $ for this - I call this expensive for a simple mouse with two buttons. I really changed my opinion about Cherry products because of this damned plastic thing.
Alan Mackenzie <a...@muc.de> wrote: > Have you actually tried any of these "ergonomic" keyboards? Have you > ever suffered RSI from typing on a standard keyboard?
Long ago, when Microsoft pushed their first broken varieties. My company bought some to try. But after some weeks they disappeared all in a locker and have never been seen again.
I have the habit to use the Ctrl and Shift keys only on the left side. I never use the right ones. On every keyboard I can cultivate this quirk of mine. These broken keyboards hinder me in doing that. They force me to use keys I normally never use. Especially in the middle (keys t, z (y), g, h, b, n) I get really in conflict what Ctrl or Shift key to use just because some clever people on the west coast think they could improve my more than 20 years old typing ergonomics by splitting the keyboard in two parts.
> What's so great about late 1980s IBM keyboards?
They were made from metal. This gave them a heavy weight and a very solid stableness on the table. They had keys with a built-in mechanical click. This click was not only hearable but also feelable while pressing a key, a remarkable, very precise pressure point you learn to value. Other manufacturers tried to imitate this pressure point but used more softer ones which is indeed not comparable. I know people using very old IBM keyboards still today, bought on eBay. And these things have not a single broken key. So they seem to be undestructable.
Torsten Mueller <dev-n...@shared-files.de> writes: >> What's so great about late 1980s IBM keyboards?
> They were made from metal. This gave them a heavy weight and a very > solid stableness on the table. They had keys with a built-in > mechanical click. This click was not only hearable but also feelable > while pressing a key, a remarkable, very precise pressure point you > learn to value. Other manufacturers tried to imitate this pressure > point but used more softer ones which is indeed not comparable. I know > people using very old IBM keyboards still today, bought on eBay. And > these things have not a single broken key. So they seem to be > undestructable.
Which is exactly the reason why nobody produces them.
>>> What's so great about late 1980s IBM keyboards?
>> They were made from metal. This gave them a heavy weight and a very >> solid stableness on the table. They had keys with a built-in >> mechanical click. This click was not only hearable but also feelable >> while pressing a key, a remarkable, very precise pressure point you >> learn to value. Other manufacturers tried to imitate this pressure >> point but used more softer ones which is indeed not comparable. I know >> people using very old IBM keyboards still today, bought on eBay. And >> these things have not a single broken key. So they seem to be >> undestructable.
> Which is exactly the reason why nobody produces them.
> Am 25.11.2010 10:16, schrieb Pascal J. Bourguignon: >> Torsten Mueller<dev-n...@shared-files.de> writes:
>>>> What's so great about late 1980s IBM keyboards?
>>> They were made from metal. This gave them a heavy weight and a very >>> solid stableness on the table. They had keys with a built-in >>> mechanical click. This click was not only hearable but also feelable >>> while pressing a key, a remarkable, very precise pressure point you >>> learn to value. Other manufacturers tried to imitate this pressure >>> point but used more softer ones which is indeed not comparable. I know >>> people using very old IBM keyboards still today, bought on eBay. And >>> these things have not a single broken key. So they seem to be >>> undestructable.
>> Which is exactly the reason why nobody produces them.
> The best keyboard ever! I use the original IBM at work since years each > day! Nothing can compare with the true IBM Model M (or Unicomp "clones")!
Precisely.
I heavily use keyboards 12-16 hours/day and would wear out Dell Quietkey, HP/Compaq and other keyboards within 3 months. I have been typing since the early 1950s (IBM electric typewriter) and have absolutely NO RSI or other problems due to my proper posture and arm/hand position while at a/the keyboard.
The Unicomp keyboards are fantastic; I have the SpaceSaver which is working fine now for over two years in this setup:
I wonder if those with problems and refusing to acknowledge the wisdom of a [CTRL] key to the left of [A] have some physical abnormality such as tiny or dainty hands and/or short fingers? I can think of no other reason since I have large hands.
> I wonder if those with problems and refusing to acknowledge the > wisdom of a [CTRL] key to the left of [A] have some physical > abnormality such as tiny or dainty hands and/or short fingers? > I can think of no other reason since I have large hands.
I suspect that RSI is related to other things than just typing, such as stress. Note I'm *not* saying it is not real, just that the cause may not be just keyboards. Certainly stress has made me serously physically unwell at some points, so I don't see why it should not hurt your hands as well.
I don't think it is hand-size - my hands aren't very large, I use control to the right of A on mostly crap keyboards, and have some arthritic/degenerative changes to my right hand following skiing injury ("hillend thumb", acquired at Hillend even), but I get no RSI currently.
Torsten Mueller <dev-n...@shared-files.de> writes: > Alan Mackenzie <a...@muc.de> wrote: > > What's so great about late 1980s IBM keyboards?
> They were made from metal. This gave them a heavy weight and a very > solid stableness on the table. They had keys with a built-in > mechanical click. This click was not only hearable but also feelable > while pressing a key, a remarkable, very precise pressure point you > learn to value. Other manufacturers tried to imitate this pressure > point but used more softer ones which is indeed not comparable.
Other keyboards generally use a different mechanism which simulates the pressure point -- but /slightly/ inaccurately, so sometimes you can feel the key go, but it hasn't actually registered. The model M buckled-spring mechanism, as far as I can tell, goes `click' exactly as the keypress is registered, every time, without fail.
I have four model M keyboards, acquired from various people and bought off Ebay, of slightly different vintages. I value them for their stability, robustness and typing feel. I also value them because they have a nice wide space bar, and no extra weird keys between the Alt and Ctrl keys in the bottom row. Model M keyboards also have separate detachable keycaps which makes cleaning the thing slightly less of a nightmare.
They are noisy, which I find somewhat irritating, actually. And the little legs on the bottom for holding the keyboard at an angle are a bit brittle -- by which I mean that one of them is broken; because the rest of the keyboard seems completely indestructible.
It seems that my tastes in input devices is generally out of date. My preferred mouse is the Logitech MouseMan 95 (the triangular one with three actual buttons): I have an original, and a few Compaq rebadged mice, again from Ebay. These last are actually recent enough to have colour-coded plugs. And I still insist on using CRT monitors, too.
Of course, back in those days, IBM PCs didn't come with a keyboard -- and the model M was very expensive. Nowadays people expect a keyboard to be bundled with the computer, or at least to buy a keyboard for less than $20 or so -- and they get what they pay for. Sigh.
> > Now, we can argue about the Cherry MX switches being the best ones > > available, but we can't argue about them being high quality.
> Many years ago I had "Cherry" in mind as a name, as a notion of > quality and stability. A year ago I bought a Cherry mouse quite > because of this idea. But what I got was nothing but a letdown. This > thing was really cheap plastic and did indeed not even work safely. > You had to held this mouse in a specific way, otherwise you blocked > the mouse keys with your fingers from coming up again after pressing. > But I payed about 60 US $ for this - I call this expensive for a > simple mouse with two buttons. I really changed my opinion about > Cherry products because of this damned plastic thing.
Cherry manufactures both cheap and high-end products. Their MX switches are prized by many keyboard enthusiasts.
Torsten Mueller <dev-n...@shared-files.de> writes: > The summit of keyboard development was reached by IBM in the late 80s. > Yes, that's 20 years ago. After this point in history _every_ further > development was only made for commercial reasons.
The IBM keyboards on early PCs were certainly good but years before that IBM sold the IBM 3279 color graphics terminal.
I used a bunch of IBM 3270 type terminals but the 3279 stood out. At least as good as the Model M if not better.
I don't remember the exact year but at least the early 80s.
> > Torsten, the Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard is the best keyboard ever > > and you're an idiot if you think otherwise.
> Sure.
> BTW: A great idea of different thinking people! Kill them all!
> T.M.
This keyboard you made promotion for _is_ just idiotic itself, as well as the late 80s IBM keyboards was. These late 80s IBM keyboards are no progress, they are indeed not even developped to reach any ergonomic goal or something. The one and only reason why they exist is making money with simple minded people believing in geeky lifestyle gadgets. And an important result of the late 80s and the use of late 80s IBM keyboards is the fact that the use of late 80s IBM keyboards indeed manage to _breed_ those people in a large number ... (This is one of the great secrets behind Sun's success.)
The summit of keyboard development was reached by Microsoft ergonomic keyboards Yes, that's recently. Before this point in history _every_ late 80s IBM keyboards was made for only commercial reasons.
