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Kent M Pitman  
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 More options Feb 21 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Kent M Pitman <pit...@world.std.com>
Date: 1999/02/21
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL

In the olden days (maclisp), pre-backquote, we used to do:

 (sublis (list (cons 'var var) (cons 'init init) (cons 'final final)
               (cons 'bodyform (cons 'progn body)))
   '(let ((var (1- init)))
      (while (>= final (setq var (1+ var))) bodyform)))

Don't know if that helps, but it's worth noticing that sometimes when
technology runs awry, the underlying thing they're buying you sometimes
isn't worth the fuss.


 
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Erik Naggum  
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 More options Feb 21 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no>
Date: 1999/02/21
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL
* Sam Steingold <s...@goems.com>
| (defmacro calendar-for-loop (var from init to final do &rest body)
|   "Execute a for loop."
|   (` (let (( (, var) (1- (, init)) ))
|        (while (>= (, final) (setq (, var) (1+ (, var))))
|          (,@ body)))))
|
| is correct in EL (but not in CL).  obviously I have to redefine backquote
| in the emacs-lisp package, but I don't know how to do this easily (I am
| not particularly eager to re-invent the wheel).
|
| Any suggestions?

  yes.  don't bother.  many things in Emacs Lisp should not be replicated.
  instead, fix the Emacs sources and submit them as patches.

#:Erik


 
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Hrvoje Niksic  
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 More options Feb 21 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Hrvoje Niksic <hnik...@srce.hr>
Date: 1999/02/21
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL

Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no> writes:
>   yes.  don't bother.  many things in Emacs Lisp should not be
>   replicated.  instead, fix the Emacs sources and submit them as
>   patches.

A large amount of legacy Emacs code (both in the distribution and
elsewhere on the net) uses "old-style" backquotes.  If Sam's goal is
to run such code unchanged, he will probably have to implement the
backquote junk, somehow.

 
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Erik Naggum  
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 More options Feb 22 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no>
Date: 1999/02/22
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL
* Sam Steingold <s...@goems.com>
| Note that it only works with Allegro CL with Erik's readtable fix, which
| he did not post but sent me by private e-mail.  I would appreciate if he
| did post it for public consumption.

  um, I'm not sure this is a good idea, but here goes:

excl:   ;; compile and load this, do _not_ evaluate interpreted
(loop   ;; make the #\ reader fully ANSI CL compliant, ignore CLtL1.
  with readtables = (get-objects 11)
  for i from 1 to (aref readtables 0)
  for readtable = (aref readtables i) do
    (when (readtable-dispatch-tables readtable)
      (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\\
        (named-function sharp-backslash
          (lambda (stream backslash font)
            (declare (ignore font))
            (stream-unread-char backslash stream)
            (let* ((charstring (read-extended-token stream)))
              (unless *read-suppress*
                (or (if (= (length charstring) 1)
                      (char charstring 0)
                      (name-char charstring))
                    (internal-reader-error
                     stream "Meaningless character name ~A"
                     (string-upcase charstring)))))))
        readtable)))

  this is deliberately Allegro CL-specific and hopefully won't work
  anywhere else.  unsupported, copyrighted, no warranties kind of stuff,
  based on my understanding of source code licensed to supported customers,
  but not derived from which, etc, legal blah blah blah, sue Bill Gates if
  you have problems, and indemnify everybody else, OK?  cancel?  <click>

#:Erik


 
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Kent M Pitman  
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 More options Feb 22 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Kent M Pitman <pit...@world.std.com>
Date: 1999/02/22
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL

Sam Steingold <s...@goems.com> writes:
> This does not work with CLISP because (probe-file "/etc/") signals an
> error (file is not a directory).  (a workaround is being worked on).

Incidentally, I see no reason for (probe-file "/etc/") to return
anything useful in any conforming implementation.  Directories are not
required to be files.  In some operating systems, they aren't files.
That's not to say an implementation can't usefully define this behavior;
I just wanted to be clear it's not something you should expect because
of the standard... at least, not for any reason I can recall.

 
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Mike McDonald  
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 More options Feb 23 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: mike...@mikemac.com (Mike McDonald)
Date: 1999/02/23
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL
In article <87soc0yvp8....@pc-hrvoje.srce.hr>,
        Hrvoje Niksic <hnik...@srce.hr> writes:

> Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no> writes:

>>   yes.  don't bother.  many things in Emacs Lisp should not be
>>   replicated.  instead, fix the Emacs sources and submit them as
>>   patches.

> A large amount of legacy Emacs code (both in the distribution and
> elsewhere on the net) uses "old-style" backquotes.  If Sam's goal is
> to run such code unchanged, he will probably have to implement the
> backquote junk, somehow.

  Wouldn't it be easier to implement the byte code interpreter and just run
the .elc files instead?

  Mike McDonald
  mike...@mikemac.com


 
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Erik Naggum  
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 More options Feb 23 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no>
Date: 1999/02/23
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL
* mike...@mikemac.com (Mike McDonald)
| Wouldn't it be easier to implement the byte code interpreter and just run
| the .elc files instead?

  for this particular case, it would, but the byte code interpreter calls
  out to functions all the time, and you would need to implement almost
  everything anyway.  the byte code is also more incompatible between the
  various versions of Emacs than the source is.  not that it isn't a good
  idea, but it would probably cause a lot more work than you think to get
  it right everywhere.

#:Erik


 
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Howard R. Stearns  
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 More options Feb 23 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: "Howard R. Stearns" <how...@elwood.com>
Date: 1999/02/23
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL
Could someone sumarize what the issue was with backquote.  I don't know
what is meant by "old style backquote".

How are elisp macros and/or backquote different than CL?


 
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Aaron Crane  
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 More options Feb 24 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: aaron.cr...@pobox.com (Aaron Crane)
Date: 1999/02/24
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL
In article <36D2BC01.70862...@elwood.com>,
"Howard R. Stearns" <how...@elwood.com> writes:

> Could someone sumarize what the issue was with backquote.  I don't know
> what is meant by "old style backquote".

In older Emacs Lisp dialects, backquote, comma and comma-at are macros,
rather than being handled by the reader.  This means that instead of

    (defmacro forever (&rest body)
      `(do () (nil) ,@body))

you have to write

    (defmacro forever (&rest body)        ; old-style Emacs Lisp
      (` (do () (nil) (,@ body)))

Clearly, this rapidly becomes incomprehensible as the complexity of the
backquoted form rises.

Modern Emacs Lisp readers have horrific kluges to recognise old-style
backquoting; this also means that certain (admittedly obscure) usages of
backquote will fail.

--
Aaron Crane   <aaron.cr...@pobox.com>   <URL:http://pobox.com/~aaronc/>


 
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Howard R. Stearns  
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 More options Feb 24 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: "Howard R. Stearns" <how...@elwood.com>
Date: 1999/02/24
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL
(Thanks for the response, Aaron.)

If I recall correctly, the ANSI CL spec suggests (but does not require)
that implementations of the backquote reader try to be compatible with
Scheme and other dialects, which provide macros (as opposed to reader
macros) for doing some of the same things as CL backquote does.

For example, there should be macros named QUASIQUOTE, UNQUOTE and
UNQUOTE-SPLICING.  (If one wanted to provide similar utilities for other
CL backquoting features that are not part of Scheme, one would also
define something like "unquote-splicing!" and "quasivector".)

I don't know how many CL implementations do this, but if they support
anything like this (even with different names,) then it should be pretty
easy to support elisp quasiquoting macros within CL.

It is not clear to me whether one could then get away with either of:
 1. globally replacing "(` " (with space) to "(quasiquote ",
    "(,@ " => "(unquote-splicing ", etc.
 2. Hacking the ` reader to return the symbol QUASIQUOTE if the next
character is
    a space, and similarly for , and ,@.  This would allows .el files to
be used
    directly, without modification.  However, it might screw up .lisp
files, so
    arrangements would have to made such that the modified readtable
would be used
    only on .el files.
Both of these depend on the assumption that "old style elisp
backquoting" relied on whitespace to terminate the symbols named "`",
"," and ",@".  

If this concept is sound, I can donate some untested code to the cause.
I have code for the next version of Eclipse that implements QUASIQUOTE,
etc., macros, and coordinates them with the backquote reader macros.
The code is about 4 screen fulls and is loosely based on appendix C in
CLtL2.  Contact me if you want it.  Here's an overview:

;;; We process quasiquote forms at macroexpansion time, and backquote
;;; forms at read time.  In either case, processing involves
;;; simplifiying the forms and transforming them to bq-xxx forms.  The
;;; bq-xxx macros expand into xxx, but are recognized by the
;;; pretty-printer so that they can be printed using backquote
;;; characters.  They also keep the simplifier from mistakenly
;;; simplifying user code.


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)" by Kelly Murray
Kelly Murray  
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 More options Feb 24 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Kelly Murray <k...@IntelliMarket.Com>
Date: 1999/02/24
Subject: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)
Another area where there exist major room
for improvement in CL...

The syntax of Backquote is about as ugly as one can imagine.
Unfortunately, backquote is almost always used when
defining macros.  And with the macro being one of the key
strengths of lisp, we have the situation where a key strength
of lisp uses one of the most bizarre and ugly syntactic constructs
in the language.  At least parenthesis have a form of beauty
and functionality, but backquote is just plain ugly and bizzare.

So how about some suggestions on something different,
something better.  How about a straw man:
Use [] to replace , and {} to replace ,@
i.e.  `(zap ,foo ,@bar)   ==> `(zap [foo] {bar})


 
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Mike McDonald  
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 More options Feb 24 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: mike...@mikemac.com (Mike McDonald)
Date: 1999/02/24
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)
In article <36D45172.5EA34...@intellimarket.com>,
        Kelly Murray <k...@IntelliMarket.Com> writes:

> Another area where there exist major room
> for improvement in CL...

> The syntax of Backquote is about as ugly as one can imagine.
> Unfortunately, backquote is almost always used when
> defining macros.  And with the macro being one of the key
> strengths of lisp, we have the situation where a key strength
> of lisp uses one of the most bizarre and ugly syntactic constructs
> in the language.  At least parenthesis have a form of beauty
> and functionality, but backquote is just plain ugly and bizzare.

> So how about some suggestions on something different,
> something better.  How about a straw man:
> Use [] to replace , and {} to replace ,@
> i.e.  `(zap ,foo ,@bar)   ==> `(zap [foo] {bar})

  Looks about as ugly and bizzare to me as the current syntax.

  Mike McDonald
  mike...@mikemac.com


 
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Dave Pearson  
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 More options Feb 24 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: davep.n...@hagbard.demon.co.uk (Dave Pearson)
Date: 1999/02/24
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:22:26 -0800, Kelly Murray <k...@IntelliMarket.Com> wrote:
> [SNIP backquote is ugly]

> i.e.  `(zap ,foo ,@bar)   ==> `(zap [foo] {bar})

[Coming from a lisp "dabbler"] I'd always thought ("always" is the last year
that I've been toying with lisp) that the backquote syntax had a certain
beauty to it. It's hard to describe but I felt that "," and ",@" painted the
actual action into my editor. "," "nicked and opened" what followed and ",@"
"nicked and unrolled" what followed.

Assuming your suggestion was serious (I've got this funny feeling I may have
missed the joke in your post), why do you think the current syntax is ugly?

--
Take a look in Hagbard's World: |   w3ng - The WWW Norton Guide reader.
http://www.acemake.com/hagbard/ |     eg - Norton Guide reader for Linux.
http://www.hagbard.demon.co.uk/ |    weg - Norton Guide reader for Windows.
Free software, including........| dgscan - DGROUP scanner for Clipper.


 
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Johan Kullstam  
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 More options Feb 24 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Johan Kullstam <kulls...@ne.mediaone.net>
Date: 1999/02/24
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)

it certainly looks weird.

where else do you find the comma attached to the *front* of anything?

i suppose you get used to it, but it is rather jarring to have your
normal sense of where to put commas completely turned on its head.

--
                                           J o h a n  K u l l s t a m
                                           [kulls...@ne.mediaone.net]
                                              Don't Fear the Penguin!


 
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Bulent Murtezaoglu  
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 More options Feb 24 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Bulent Murtezaoglu <b...@acm.org>
Date: 1999/02/24
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)
>>>>> "JK" == Johan Kullstam <kulls...@ne.mediaone.net> writes:

[...]
    JK> where else do you find the comma attached to the *front* of
    JK> anything?

    JK> i suppose you get used to it, but it is rather jarring to have
    JK> your normal sense of where to put commas completely turned on
    JK> its head.

How is this different than '+' in prefix?
You get used to it in about a few hours, in my experience.
I may be biased though, I already had decided that I loved lisp
when I started using backquote and comma.  

BM


 
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Mike McDonald  
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 More options Feb 25 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: mike...@mikemac.com (Mike McDonald)
Date: 1999/02/25
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)
In article <m23e3ve16p....@sophia.axel.nom>,
        Johan Kullstam <kulls...@ne.mediaone.net> writes:

> where else do you find the comma attached to the *front* of anything?

> i suppose you get used to it, but it is rather jarring to have your
> normal sense of where to put commas completely turned on its head.

  I think that's a good thing! It draws your attention to it that something
unusual is going on.

  Mike McDonald
  mike...@mikemac.com


 
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Johan Kullstam  
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 More options Feb 25 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Johan Kullstam <kulls...@ne.mediaone.net>
Date: 1999/02/25
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)

mike...@mikemac.com (Mike McDonald) writes:
> In article <m23e3ve16p....@sophia.axel.nom>,
>    Johan Kullstam <kulls...@ne.mediaone.net> writes:

> > where else do you find the comma attached to the *front* of anything?

> > i suppose you get used to it, but it is rather jarring to have your
> > normal sense of where to put commas completely turned on its head.

>   I think that's a good thing! It draws your attention to it that something
> unusual is going on.

i am not trying to say it's good or bad here.   it is just unique and
takes some getting used to.

--
                                           J o h a n  K u l l s t a m
                                           [kulls...@ne.mediaone.net]
                                              Don't Fear the Penguin!


 
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Martti Halminen  
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 More options Feb 25 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Martti Halminen <mha@rm_spam_trap.dpe.fi>
Date: 1999/02/25
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)

Kelly Murray wrote:
> The syntax of Backquote is about as ugly as one can imagine.
> Unfortunately, backquote is almost always used when
> defining macros.  And with the macro being one of the key
> strengths of lisp, we have the situation where a key strength
> of lisp uses one of the most bizarre and ugly syntactic constructs
> in the language.  At least parenthesis have a form of beauty
> and functionality, but backquote is just plain ugly and bizzare.

> So how about some suggestions on something different,
> something better.  How about a straw man:
> Use [] to replace , and {} to replace ,@
> i.e.  `(zap ,foo ,@bar)   ==> `(zap [foo] {bar})

First of all, you have a readability problem with this particular
suggestion: I read your `(zap [foo] {bar}) first as `(zap [foo] (bar)),
in other words, for anybody with less than perfect eyesight, () and {}
are uncomfortably similar in some fonts.

The other problem I have with this is that this would add more
parentheses to the program; as the most often heard complaint from
newcomers is that all the parens make the language unreadable, adding
more of them would be unlikely to help.

I find that I actually prefer Lisp's style of using no explicit end
delimiter in quote etc.: saves me from all the problems with missing or
misplaced end delimiters, the whitespace or parens ending the form are
quite sufficient for my taste as end indicators.

I prefer the current backquote to your suggestion, I'd rather save the
[]{} for the user for any extension languages etc.

--
________________________________________________________________
    ^.          Martti Halminen
   / \`.        Design Power Europe Oy
  /   \ `.      Tekniikantie 12, FIN-02150 Espoo, Finland
 /\`.  \ |      Tel:+358 9 4354 2306, Fax:+358 9 455 8575
/__\|___\|      Mailto:Martti.Halmi...@dpe.fi   http://www.dpe.fi


 
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Discussion subject changed to "loading Emacs-Lisp into CL" by Erik Naggum
Erik Naggum  
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 More options Feb 25 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no>
Date: 1999/02/25
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL
* aaron.cr...@pobox.com (Aaron Crane)
| Modern Emacs Lisp readers have horrific kluges to recognise old-style
| backquoting; this also means that certain (admittedly obscure) usages of
| backquote will fail.

  this isn't quite true.  the new-style backquoting is returned as
  old-style function calls with funny function names.

(car (read-from-string "`(a ,b ,@c)")) => (\` (a (\, b) (\,@ c)))

  (the two values are returned as a cons.)  moreover, ` is a macro:

(symbol-function '\`) => (macro . #<lambda (arg)>)

  this macro is not very well-written and frequently gets seriously
  confused.

#:Erik, who has tried and given up fixing it


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)" by Erik Naggum
Erik Naggum  
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 More options Feb 25 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no>
Date: 1999/02/25
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)
* Johan Kullstam <kulls...@ne.mediaone.net>
| where else do you find the comma attached to the *front* of anything?

  what do you mean "comma"?  don't you see it's a low quote?

#:Erik :)


 
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Discussion subject changed to "loading Emacs-Lisp into CL" by Erik Naggum
Erik Naggum  
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 More options Feb 25 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no>
Date: 1999/02/25
Subject: Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL
* Sam Steingold <s...@goems.com>
| What is the license?

  basically "use it, don't change it, don't redistribute it."

  it's much better for all of us that this is fixed in the actual sources.

#:Erik


 
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Discussion subject changed to "Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)" by Dave Seaman
Dave Seaman  
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 More options Feb 25 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: a...@seaman.cc.purdue.edu (Dave Seaman)
Date: 1999/02/25
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)
In article <3128925742665...@naggum.no>, Erik Naggum  <e...@naggum.no> wrote:

>* Johan Kullstam <kulls...@ne.mediaone.net>
>| where else do you find the comma attached to the *front* of anything?

>  what do you mean "comma"?  don't you see it's a low quote?

Since the ordinary quote (') is sometimes called an "inverted comma,"
what could be more natural than un-inverting the comma in order to
reverse the effect?  This seems especially appropriate in constructs like
',item, where the item needs to be evaluated and then quoted.

--
Dave Seaman                     dsea...@purdue.edu
Pennsylvania Supreme Court Denies Fair Trial for Mumia Abu-Jamal
<http://mojo.calyx.net/~refuse/altindex.html>


 
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Tim Bradshaw  
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 More options Feb 25 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Tim Bradshaw <t...@tfeb.org>
Date: 1999/02/25
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)

Johan Kullstam <kulls...@ne.mediaone.net> writes:
> where else do you find the comma attached to the *front* of anything?

It's not a comma, it's a quote in the wrong place. (I bet this isn't
really why it's done like that, but...)

(and what about colons on the front of keywords...)

--tim


 
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Barry Margolin  
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 More options Feb 25 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Barry Margolin <bar...@bbnplanet.com>
Date: 1999/02/25
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)
In article <nkjyalmvfaz....@tfeb.org>, Tim Bradshaw  <t...@tfeb.org> wrote:

>Johan Kullstam <kulls...@ne.mediaone.net> writes:

>> where else do you find the comma attached to the *front* of anything?

>It's not a comma, it's a quote in the wrong place. (I bet this isn't
>really why it's done like that, but...)

The idea is that the comma is the *opposite* of the backquote.

>(and what about colons on the front of keywords...)

Colons were already being used as package separators, so it was natural to
adopt them as a keyword indicator as well.  Putting them at the beginning
was done by analogy with the way options are often specified to OS commands
(e.g. -<keyword> on Multics, -<letter> on Unix, /<keyword> on ITS and most
DEC OS's).

--
Barry Margolin, bar...@bbnplanet.com
GTE Internetworking, Powered by BBN, Burlington, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.


 
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Erik Naggum  
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 More options Feb 25 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
From: Erik Naggum <e...@naggum.no>
Date: 1999/02/25
Subject: Re: Backquote considered bizzare (was Re: loading Emacs-Lisp into CL)
* Kelly Murray <k...@IntelliMarket.Com>
| Another area where there exist major room for improvement in CL...

  it doesn't appear that you want to use Common Lisp at all, but it also
  doesn't appear that you have any gripes more fundamental than syntactic
  aesthetics.  what gives?  this is a part of the language you can change
  at will, but there simply is no need to do this in Common Lisp.

  speaking of which, I explained to the British guy sitting next to me on a
  recent transatlantic flight that I worked with Common Lisp.  he in turn
  talked about his great hobby: ornithology, where "common" is a synonym
  for "garden", as in "garden variety".  he thought it would have better
  acceptance if it was called "Garden Lisp".  feel free to use it, Kelly.

#:Erik


 
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