HTML text of CLTL2?
Erik Naggum
| Having read the URLs of cltl2, I wonder how I can download ALL the
| htmls that belong to it. I have tried ftp, but obviously they don't
| allow anonymous access. It would be great if somebody had a tar-file
| with the whole html-version of cltl2.
[Simon Brooke]
| Gosh, yes, wouldn't that be useful? I bet the reason that you can't is
| that it's copyright, and somebody (GS?) wants to make a living out of
| it (after all it took a great deal of work to put it together).
| However, I think I'd much rather pay UKP 40 to have html on CD-ROM than
| to have plain text on paper.
what utter baloney! the book was released to the public right before the
standard was finalized. by Guy Steele himself, as far as I remember. if
this doesn't say "I don't think it's right to charge money for a book that
is no longer the authoritative reference", I don't know what it says. the
LaTeX source files are available from cambridge.apple.com, and I got the
HTML files from Mark Kantrowitz.
I can't find an FTPable source for the HTML files, anymore, but this is now
publicly accessible. I have both the HTML and the original LaTeX
distribution files spinning on my disks. if you want it, I'm sure Mark
wouldn't object to shipping copies around as long as he can have URL's to
add to his mirror list. let me know, and I'll make them available.
#<Erik>
--
sufficiently advanced political correctness is indistinguishable from sarcasm
Karsten Poeck
(Simon Brooke) wrote:
> Gosh, yes, wouldn't that be useful? I bet the reason that you can't is
> that it's copyright, and somebody (GS?) wants to make a living out of it
I can't believe that, we got a copy by offering Mkant to become a
mirror-site
(http://wi6a76.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/HTMLs/cltl/cltl2.html)
the tex files should still be on ftp.digitool.com
Karsten A. Poeck, Lehrstuhl fuer Informatik VI, Universitaet Wuerzburg
E-mail: po...@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
Christopher Biggs
si...@rheged.dircon.co.uk moved upon the face of the 'Net and spake thusly:
>
> In article <3oanv5$g...@news.tuwien.ac.at>,
> Clemens Heitzinger <e942...@fbma.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> >
> >Having read the URLs of cltl2, I wonder how I can download ALL the htmls
> >that belong to it. I have tried ftp, but obviously they don't allow
> >anonymous access. It would be great if somebody had a tar-file with the
> >whole html-version of cltl2.
> >
>
> Gosh, yes, wouldn't that be useful? I bet the reason that you can't is
> that it's copyright, and somebody (GS?) wants to make a living out of it
> (after all it took a great deal of work to put it
> together). However,
Rubbish. You can FTP the Latex, HTML or PostScript versions of CLTL
from the CMU AI Repository. GLS and Digital Press have given
permission for this, and it is mentioned in the FAQ:
> [Butterworth-Heinemann, the owners of Digital Press, have made
> the LaTeX sources to this book available by anonymous FTP from
> cambridge.apple.com:/pub/CLTL/
> A copy of the distribution is also available from
> ftp.cs.cmu.edu:/user/ai/lang/lisp/doc/cltl/
> I think I'd much rather pay UKP 40 to have html on CD-ROM than to have
> plain text on paper.
The LaTeX and HTML versions do not have a comprehensive Index. I
downloaded both, used them for a while, and then decided to buy the
printed version.
My fiance gave me a copy of CLTL2 for an engagement present--now
that's what I call a true understanding of my geekness.
cjb
- --
------------------ Linux hackers do it in protected mode -------------------
| Christopher Biggs - Software Engineer, Stallion Technologies, Australia |
| ch...@stallion.oz.au - Ph+61-7-270-4266 - Fx+61-7-371-8881 - PGP&MIME OK |
------- Mathematics and alcohol don't mix --- Never drink and derive -------
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Brian Kidder
Bro...@rheged.dirc (850)
> In article <3oanv5$g...@news.tuwien.ac.at>,
> Clemens Heitzinger <e942...@fbma.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> >
> >Having read the URLs of cltl2, I wonder how I can download ALL the htmls
> >that belong to it. I have tried ftp, but obviously they don't allow
> >anonymous access. It would be great if somebody had a tar-file with the
> >whole html-version of cltl2.
> >
> Gosh, yes, wouldn't that be useful? I bet the reason that you can't is
> that it's copyright, and somebody (GS?) wants to make a living out of it
> (after all it took a great deal of work to put it together). However,
> I think I'd much rather pay UKP 40 to have html on CD-ROM than to have
> plain text on paper.
My, that would be useful......and available as gzipped tar files in
LaTeX, HTML, PostScript and DVI formats from
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/ai-repository/ai/html/cltl/c
ltl2.html
And yes, the creators of this page have permission from the publisher to
provide this information. It seems that Digital Press is charging (in
their eyes) for the printing and materials of CLTL2, not for the
information contained within.
--Brian Kidder mon...@cmu.edu
The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.---D.Adams
David Neves
Kantrowitz) wrote:
...
: The HTML version's index is, as some people have mentioned, not as
: good as the printed version.
The locations of the defined symbols (i.e. constants, functions, macros)
can be pulled out with a single GREP on the html files. I remember doing
this but I can't remember exactly what I GREPed with (it might have been
"</tt><P>"). Using this information one could then create a comprehensive
index and change the source html files to allow jumping to the symbol
defining locations.
-David
Mark Kantrowitz
Clemens Heitzinger <e942...@fbma.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>I found the HTML version on ftp.sunet.se. In /pub/lang/lisp/doc/cltl
>there are the DVI, HTML and PS versions. It seems to me as if this
>server is quite comprehensive in what lisp concerns, and it's not so far
>away.
SUNET mirrors the lisp section of the CMU AI Repository. I'm not sure
how frequently they update it, but I believe it is at least monthly.
The source to the HTML version is available in the repository as
ftp.cs.cmu.edu:/user/ai/lang/lisp/doc/cltl/cltl_ht.tgz
I ask that anybody who sets up a copy on a moderately public WWW
server send me the URL so that I can add it to the page of mirrors.
The HTML version's index is, as some people have mentioned, not as
good as the printed version. Someone here at CMU volunteered to set up
a Glimpse server for the book, but I'm not sure when that will be available.
I have asked ANSI about making the standard available in a similar
fashion. As you may be aware, ANSI sells copies of the standard to
cover its costs, so obviously they can't make it available for free. I
asked ANSI about making a one-time payment for worldwide online
distribution rights (e.g., equivalent to their earnings from n paper
copies), but did not receive a firm answer. (That ANSI is considering
making its standards available via the WWW on a pay-per-view service
may have had something to do with their reluctance to pursue that as
an option.)
Mark Kantrowitz
mk...@cs.cmu.edu
Erik Naggum
| I have asked ANSI about making the standard available in a similar
| fashion. As you may be aware, ANSI sells copies of the standard to
| cover its costs, so obviously they can't make it available for free.
I thought part of the deal with ANSI was that the text should be made
available for free.
| I asked ANSI about making a one-time payment for worldwide online
| distribution rights (e.g., equivalent to their earnings from n paper
| copies), but did not receive a firm answer.
the GNU Common Lisp project has made the Draft ANSI Standard available in
the form of info files as part of its release 2.1 just this past week, and
uses the info files in their implementation of the `describe' function.
maybe you should talk to Bill Schelter <w...@math.utexas.edu>.
Mark Kantrowitz
Erik Naggum <er...@naggum.no> wrote:
>[Mark Kantrowitz]
>
>| I have asked ANSI about making the standard available in a similar
>| fashion. As you may be aware, ANSI sells copies of the standard to
>| cover its costs, so obviously they can't make it available for free.
>
>I thought part of the deal with ANSI was that the text should be made
>available for free.
This is definitely not the case, according to email I received from
Lynn Barra, the coordinator for Standards Processing for X3. If
anybody has a different story FROM AN OFFICIAL SOURCE, I would like to
hear about it.
>| I asked ANSI about making a one-time payment for worldwide online
>| distribution rights (e.g., equivalent to their earnings from n paper
>| copies), but did not receive a firm answer.
>
>the GNU Common Lisp project has made the Draft ANSI Standard available in
>the form of info files as part of its release 2.1 just this past week, and
>uses the info files in their implementation of the `describe' function.
>
>maybe you should talk to Bill Schelter <w...@math.utexas.edu>.
My impression is that as soon as the official ANSI Standard for Common
Lisp is published, ANSI will ask that the drafts be removed and no
longer distributed. Given the high profile nature of the CMU AI
Repository, I cannot make the standard available without obtaining
official permission. If Bill Schelter received permission from someone
at ANSI, I would like to know who, because the people I've talked to
haven't been very receptive.
Mark Kantrowitz
mk...@cs.cmu.edu
Barry Margolin
>I thought part of the deal with ANSI was that the text should be made
>available for free.
What "deal with ANSI" are you referring to?
--
Barry Margolin
BBN Planet Corporation, Cambridge, MA
bar...@bbnplanet.com
Marco Antoniotti
From: bar...@nic.near.net (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Date: 10 May 1995 00:59:09 -0400
Organization: BBN Planet Corporation, Cambridge, MA
Lines: 9
References: <3ojcfn$c...@news.tuwien.ac.at> <3omo0d$r...@cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu> <19950509T0...@naggum.no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tools.near.net
In article <19950509T0...@naggum.no> Erik Naggum <er...@naggum.no> writes:
>I thought part of the deal with ANSI was that the text should be made
>available for free.
What "deal with ANSI" are you referring to?
I do not know what kind of deal you guys are referring to (I gather
that Barry is implying that there was no such deal :) ), but it would
tremendously help (help what?) if the price of the ANSI Standard book
would be in the neighborhood of the $40.00 I paid for my copy of
CLtL2, instead of the $4575.032299 it looks like it's going to sell
for.
The people involved in the ANSI committee who are reading this
newsgroup could (and IMHO, should) make their voice heard in order to
make this happen.
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti - Resistente Umano
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robotics Lab | room: 1220 - tel. #: (212) 998 3370
Courant Institute NYU | e-mail: mar...@cs.nyu.edu
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Bertholdt Brecht
Barry Margolin
>tremendously help (help what?) if the price of the ANSI Standard book
>would be in the neighborhood of the $40.00 I paid for my copy of
>CLtL2, instead of the $4575.032299 it looks like it's going to sell
>for.
My guess is that it will be in the neighborhood of $125. I'm not sure why
I think that, though; it just strikes me as about the maximum anyone might
pay for it.
>The people involved in the ANSI committee who are reading this
>newsgroup could (and IMHO, should) make their voice heard in order to
>make this happen.
ANSI Technical Committees have virtually no say in the policies of ANSI as
a publishing company.
My belief is that ANSI prices their standards based on the perceived
market. A standard like Common Lisp is not likely to be widely purchased,
no matter how low they set the price. In order for them to make a profit
on publishing it, they have to set the price relatively high.
--
Barry Margolin
BBN Planet Corporation, Cambridge, MA
Marco Antoniotti
Path: cmcl2!panix!news.mathworks.com!news2.near.net!tools.near.net!not-for-mail
From: bar...@nic.near.net (Barry Margolin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Date: 12 May 1995 22:42:57 -0400
Organization: BBN Planet Corporation, Cambridge, MA
Lines: 25
NNTP-Posting-Host: tools.near.net
In article <MARCOXA.95...@liberty.cs.nyu.edu> mar...@liberty.cs.nyu.edu (Marco Antoniotti) writes:
>tremendously help (help what?) if the price of the ANSI Standard book
>would be in the neighborhood of the $40.00 I paid for my copy of
>CLtL2, instead of the $4575.032299 it looks like it's going to sell
>for.
My guess is that it will be in the neighborhood of $125. I'm not sure why
I think that, though; it just strikes me as about the maximum anyone might
pay for it.
125$ is too much for the typical University bookstore customer.
>The people involved in the ANSI committee who are reading this
>newsgroup could (and IMHO, should) make their voice heard in order to
>make this happen.
ANSI Technical Committees have virtually no say in the policies of ANSI as
a publishing company.
Pardon me, but has the CL committee actually said anything to ANSI
Publishing? They may choose not to hear you, but you make their job
easier if you do not say anything.
My belief is that ANSI prices their standards based on the perceived
market. A standard like Common Lisp is not likely to be widely purchased,
no matter how low they set the price. In order for them to make a profit
on publishing it, they have to set the price relatively high.
Which in turn will have less people buy it and less people trying to
make a dent in learning Common Lisp. Maybe even less of a profit for
ANSI Publishing.
Just stating a fact.
Cheers
Marco
Barry Margolin
>125$ is too much for the typical University bookstore customer.
That's not the market for ANSI standards. They are intended for industrial
use.
>Pardon me, but has the CL committee actually said anything to ANSI
>Publishing? They may choose not to hear you, but you make their job
>easier if you do not say anything.
I think the only discussions we've had have been regarding vendors being
allowed to include excerpts from the standard in their implementations, in
the DOCUMENTATION strings. I don't remember the results.
>Which in turn will have less people buy it and less people trying to
>make a dent in learning Common Lisp. Maybe even less of a profit for
>ANSI Publishing.
ANSI standards have never been intended for educational use. They are
expected to be used by vendors to precisely define the language that
they're implementing. Customers may also use them to point out bugs to
their vendor ("Your implementation doesn't do what section X.Y.Z says.")
Textbooks, vendor documentation, and mass market books are the expected
ways that most people will learn about a language. As an analogy, how many
people bother to get the ANSI standards for office furniture (yes, there
are such standards) before buying rolling chairs? Do you think more people
would buy them if they lowered the prices?
--
Barry Margolin
BBN Planet Corporation, Cambridge, MA
Erik Naggum
| ANSI standards have never been intended for educational use. They are
| expected to be used by vendors to precisely define the language that
| they're implementing. Customers may also use them to point out bugs to
| their vendor ("Your implementation doesn't do what section X.Y.Z
| says.") Textbooks, vendor documentation, and mass market books are the
| expected ways that most people will learn about a language.
I beg to differ. for information technology standards and programming
languages in particular, you can't trust either of the textbooks, vendor
documentation or mass market books to be both accurate and complete.
it is my experience from five years of standardization work that authors of
mass market books screw up about half of the fine points that the committee
spent years working on the wording to obtain the desired precision. since
the stupid standards are copyrighted and ANSI is uncooperative in efforts
to increase their stupid sales, there is also a _low_ limit to how much of
the same vocabulary and the definitions can be re-used in those textbooks,
vendor documentation and mass market books, estranging the programmer from
the Real Thing, thus increasing the need to obtain a copy.
"ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI", as someone said over in
alt.folklore.computers.
#<Erik>
--
NETSCAPISM /net-'sca-,pi-z*m/ n (1995): habitual diversion of the mind to
purely imaginative activity or entertainment as an escape from the
realization that the Internet was built by and for someone else.
Clint Hyde
-->
--> In article <3p3v7e$3...@tools.near.net> bar...@nic.near.net (Barry Margolin) writes:
-->
--> Textbooks, vendor documentation, and mass market books are the expected
those generally cost less than ANSI standard docs. I'll probably wait
for CLtL3.
far as I can tell, there's no really good "mass market book" for Lisp
the way there is for C, Visual Basic, etc. Paul Graham's book "On Lisp",
while quite good, is deep. it doesn't fill in the small holes in CLtL2.
vendor dox are fine, but they probably don't incorporate the standards,
just their variances on it. Allegro comes with a copy of CLtL2.
I'm all in favor of buying the standard, if it's more than just a
statement of the function definition. I was to see examples with the
definitions. granted, that expands the size considerably, but the std is
already huge. publish it in two vols if necessary...
-- clint
Erik Naggum
| In article <19950509T0...@naggum.no>,
| Erik Naggum <er...@naggum.no> wrote:
| >[Mark Kantrowitz]
| >
| >| I have asked ANSI about making the standard available in a similar
| >| fashion. As you may be aware, ANSI sells copies of the standard to
| >| cover its costs, so obviously they can't make it available for free.
| >
| >I thought part of the deal with ANSI was that the text should be made
| >available for free.
|
| This is definitely not the case, according to email I received from
| Lynn Barra, the coordinator for Standards Processing for X3. If anybody
| has a different story FROM AN OFFICIAL SOURCE, I would like to hear
| about it.
I finally found the note from which I drew my conclusion. sorry to
disappoint you all: all it says is that ANSI has agreed to let the draft
documents be freely distributable. not a word about the final standard.
#<Erik 3010112675>
Barry Margolin
>I finally found the note from which I drew my conclusion. sorry to
>disappoint you all: all it says is that ANSI has agreed to let the draft
>documents be freely distributable. not a word about the final standard.
Well, if it will make you all feel better, I'll let you know that the
document editor (Kent Pitman) is trying to get ANSI to release the spec to
the public domain, on the grounds that membership in an organization cannot
automatically relinquish copyrights. I'll let you know how things turn
out.