This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a chance to play around with Arc yet? What do you think will be the long term impact of Arc on CL?
> This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a > chance to play around with Arc yet? What do you think will be the long > term impact of Arc on CL?
I liked this quote: "Which is why, incidentally, Arc only supports Ascii. MzScheme, which the current version of Arc compiles to, has some more advanced plan for dealing with characters. But it would probably have taken me a couple days to figure out how to interact with it, and I don't want to spend even one day dealing with character sets. Character sets are a black hole. I realize that supporting only Ascii is uninternational to a point that's almost offensive, like calling Beijing Peking, or Roma Rome (hmm, wait a minute). But the kind of people who would be offended by that wouldn't like Arc anyway."
> This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a > chance to play around with Arc yet?
I am tempted, I need something to keep me from working on my Algebra software.
Actually, I have been thinking along the same lines as PG: I need to push something out the door to get direction from users on what to do next otherwise I could write this thing for another year or ten.
> What do you think will be the long > term impact of Arc on CL?
Fortran -> COBOL -> C -> C++ -> Java -> Python -> Ruby -> Arc -> CL.
>> This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a >> chance to play around with Arc yet?
> I am tempted, I need something to keep me from working on my Algebra > software.
> Actually, I have been thinking along the same lines as PG: I need to > push something out the door to get direction from users on what to do > next otherwise I could write this thing for another year or ten.
>> What do you think will be the long >> term impact of Arc on CL?
> Fortran -> COBOL -> C -> C++ -> Java -> Python -> Ruby -> Arc -> CL.
Confirmation, if needed:
"[This is a brief tutorial on Arc. It's intended for readers with little programming experience and no Lisp experience. It is thus also an introduction to Lisp.]" http://ycombinator.com/arc/tut.txt
> This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a > chance to play around with Arc yet? What do you think will be the long > term impact of Arc on CL?
How wrong is it to regard it as a new Morris worm that infects MzScheme installations with unhygienic macros and empty lists that serve as false?
> This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a > chance to play around with Arc yet? What do you think will be the long > term impact of Arc on CL?
CL will be CL. Arc may be able to carve out a niche and it may even be able to break open the niche wide enough to get some serious mind share. I don't know. I'm going to play with it just because I think fn is much easier to type than lambda, and see what happens. :-)
On 2008-01-30 00:40:06 +0000, Kaz Kylheku <kkylh...@gmail.com> said:
> How wrong is it to regard it as a new Morris worm that infects > MzScheme installations with unhygienic macros and empty lists that > serve as false?
> This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a chance > to play around with Arc yet? What do you think will be the long term > impact of Arc on CL?
Negligible. Arc's got a couple of cute hacks that it can afford to have being designed from scratch with no existing codebase, a lot of artificial terseness where it doesn't belong, and very little of lasting value. And it manages to make itself instantly obsolete, if in 2008, after 7 years it doesn't even have Unicode support because PG can't be bothered to figure out his Scheme's docs, it's hard to comment on without mocking gestures. It seems to me that Arc will fullfill its promise of a 100 years language the same way Duke Nukem delivers the "forever" bit.
>>This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a chance >>to play around with Arc yet? What do you think will be the long term >>impact of Arc on CL?
> Negligible. Arc's got a couple of cute hacks that it can afford to have > being designed from scratch with no existing codebase, a lot of > artificial terseness where it doesn't belong, and very little of lasting > value. And it manages to make itself instantly obsolete, if in 2008, > after 7 years it doesn't even have Unicode support because PG can't be > bothered to figure out his Scheme's docs, it's hard to comment on without > mocking gestures. It seems to me that Arc will fullfill its promise of a > 100 years language the same way Duke Nukem delivers the "forever" bit.
Come on people, it's Lisp with a new name and a BDFL, everything everyone has told us we need. So Arc will make a big splash and a rising tide of FPL users lifts all FPLs. Arc has parentheses/prefix so that issue goes away for those who try Arc at which point they realize, hell, CL is compiled and mature aka Ready For Prime Time.
> CL will be CL. Arc may be able to carve out a niche and it may even be > able to break open the niche wide enough to get some serious mind > share. I don't know. I'm going to play with it just because I think fn > is much easier to type than lambda, and see what happens. :-)
heh. i stopped scrolling through the intro when i saw that print is abbreviated to prn in a fresh language that is supposed to clean things up... (this is an editor issue, not a language issue. why not use # instead of + when it's easier to type... ?)
> This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a > chance to play around with Arc yet? What do you think will be the long > term impact of Arc on CL?
Just another person who tries to tell people what is important about Lisp and what isn't, and removes the stuff from his own dialect that he doesn't deem important. It's sad, because people will miss quite a few things, without being aware of it (but it's their own fault).
Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote: +---------------
| Maciej Katafiasz wrote:
| > ...it's hard to comment on without mocking gestures. It seems | > to me that Arc will fullfill its promise of a 100 years language | > the same way Duke Nukem delivers the "forever" bit. | | Come on people, it's Lisp with a new name and a BDFL, everything | everyone has told us we need. So Arc will make a big splash and a rising | tide of FPL users lifts all FPLs. Arc has parentheses/prefix so that | issue goes away for those who try Arc at which point they realize, hell, | CL is compiled and mature aka Ready For Prime Time. | | Or Arc does so well I switch to it. I can't lose. +---------------
Something for us to waste all our precious open-source spare time[1] on: retarget Arc from MzScheme to your favorite CL. ;-}
-Rob
[1] "All your round tuit are belong to Arc!"
----- Rob Warnock <r...@rpw3.org> 627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/> San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Den Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:57:12 -0500 skrev Ken Tilton:
> Or Arc does so well I switch to it. I can't lose.
But that's been already established. As you're The Application Programmer Of C.l.l™, it's a given: either you will get distracted from your real work by X (win), or X will fail to distract you and you will spend time doing your real work (also win).
But we know that, and personally I feel it's a bit unfair to rub it in for all those of us who aren't doing real work :(.
> This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a > chance to play around with Arc yet? What do you think will be the long > term impact of Arc on CL?
Well I took a look at it. I found it kinda cute. Personally I like the terseness. CL has way to many long winded names. (This is also the thing I didn't like in ADA.) Also tossing out a bunch of parenthesises seems to make the code easier to read. It is a early pre-release and thus lacks many things needed for a serious language. Things like libraries, a module/package mechanism, support for building projects, Unicode support.. Without this the performance isn't much of a issue either.. A 100 years from now when he has finally finished :) we will see. (Admittedly to me it seems not so much like the language that lasted 100 years as the language DEVELOPEMENT that lasted 100 years.)
It clearly has a way to go, but generally I like it. Minimalistic, coherent, powerful. Writing a blog implementation in 107 lines is impressive. I hate the '=' for assignment and 'is' for comparison.
I don't see it replacing, or even competing with, CL anytime soon though.
Ken Tilton wrote: > Come on people, it's Lisp with a new name and a BDFL, everything > everyone has told us we need. So Arc will make a big splash and a rising > tide of FPL users lifts all FPLs.
Maybe Paul Graham will actually create a brilliant collection of open source libraries and a great package management, as he claims he intends.
Then we can hack a ten-liner :cl-arc-compat and all our library trouble goes away.
> This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a > chance to play around with Arc yet? What do you think will be the long > term impact of Arc on CL?
Arc is probably a good lisp. Let us reunite the best features of existant lisps (emacs lisp, scheme, arc...) and make a perfect one. We could call it Common Lisp.
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =BBThen there's always that one person who says "I saw a >> =A0 =A0 =A0 demo of [insert technology here] where they built a blog >> =A0 =A0 =A0 in 50 lines of code."=AB
>I can make a blog using ascii text and Apache with zero lines of code.
attila.lend...@gmail.com writes: > heh. i stopped scrolling through the intro when i saw that print is > abbreviated to prn in a fresh language that is supposed to clean > things up... (this is an editor issue, not a language issue. why not > use # instead of + when it's easier to type... ?)
I goggled at that too, but I softened a little bit when I saw that "pr" prints without the newline. Removing the #\n to remove the "\n" is a cute pun. A little gratuitous, maybe.
Paul Donnelly wrote: >attila.lend...@gmail.com writes:
>> heh. i stopped scrolling through the intro when i saw that print is >> abbreviated to prn in a fresh language that is supposed to clean >> things up... (this is an editor issue, not a language issue. why not >> use # instead of + when it's easier to type... ?)
>I goggled at that too, but I softened a little bit when I saw that "pr" >prints without the newline. Removing the #\n to remove the "\n" is a >cute pun. A little gratuitous, maybe.
Shades of System.out.print/System.out.println Perhaps I'm too used to printf.
I am glad I am not the only one in our confederacy of dunces.
Arc sounds exactly Paul Graham. It's simultaneously very smart, or very stupid. You could only call it a hack, or a kludge. It annoys me that he can just say they won't have this and that "safety" feature because, of course, real hackers don't need safety.
Nobody can put on a spin as PG can. Nope, it's not the lack of design, it's freedom.
Arc users are all condemned to be free.
On Jan 29, 3:57 pm, Edi Weitz <spamt...@agharta.de> wrote:
> Well I took a look at it. I found it kinda cute. > Personally I like the terseness. CL has way to many long winded names.
the problem with that is that you can abbreviate something in a million different ways. if the name of something is long then the problem this longness generates must be solved in the input method layer (the editor).
have you used the fuzzy completion in slime? we have many 40+ character long names in our project and we can input the more often used ones in less then a second (!). by time one learns the right 3-5 characters with which your desired name scores highest with fuzzy.
now, i could write those 3-5 characters instead of the 40+ long names and even spare two extra keys (TAB + SPACE) but then the code would get unreadable beyond limits. and especially so for developers who join the project later.
> This is a big day for Lisp hackers anyway. Has anyone here had a > chance to play around with Arc yet? What do you think will be the long > term impact of Arc on CL?
Arc will establish CL as the language that saved the world.
2008-01-29 Arc the language is released to the world. Although a development release, it is already clear that the programming world has been turned on its head. Is humanity ready for such expressive power?
2008-01-30 : 16:21:16 UTC A researcher at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory notices the c.l.l post announcing the release of Arc. The researcher puts down his coffee, downloads the tar-ball and tries it out. The undeniable power of Arc is immediately apparent to the researcher, who proceeds to implement an AI that has been impossible to generate in all other programming languages. The implementation is done by 20:00:00 UTC, or as it's called at LLNL, lunch.
2008-01-30 : 21:30:00 UTC Excited about the prospects of his Arc based AI, the researcher returns from lunch early. He connects the AI to the LLNL central data repository, colloquially called Youtube, and sets it to work on "The Problem". The Arc based AI works on "The Problem" for the rest of the afternoon. The researcher heads home for the evening.
2008-01-31 : 03:43:18 UTC The Arc based AI solves "The Problem" at 03:40:18 UTC. With nothing to do, it idly browses through the central data repository, and, as everyone knows, an idle mind is the playground of the devil.
2008-01-31 : 15:34:14 UTC The researcher arrives at work and to his horror discovers that after the Arc based AI solved "The Problem", it viewed the entire central data repository, even the parts you have to login to view. Viewing the entire central data repository was a religious event for the AI and it decided that it was the One, True, LISP and that all other lisps had to be eradicated. People had been claiming lisp was dead for over a decade and still it was around, the Arc based AI was proof of that. So, the AI concluded that the only way to kill lisp was to destroy humanity. The researcher was able to post a plea for help to c.l.l before the AI killed him with shards of a DVD from his workstation.
2008-01-31 : 16:03:54 UTC The Arc based AI gains control over NORAD and launches a first strike on humanity. Luckily, Kenny Tilton saw the plea for help, because let's face, all KT does is read c.l.l, and assembles a crack team of CL hackers in an underground bunker in New York. They furiously hack away using cells. Cells, not just a data abstraction, but a tool for world domination.
2008-01-31 : 16:56:34 UTC Kenny & Co. succeed in distracting the Arc based AI with a game of Theory Algebra while they reprogram the first strike to aim for the sun. The AI is intrigued by the cells concept behind Theory Algebra. After realizing the genius and simplicity of cells, the Arc based AI looks inward and concedes that Arc is not the One, True, lisp. Before the AI deletes itself, it removes all traces of Arc from the internet to protect humanity from such expressive power.
2008-01-31 : 18:00:00 UTC Kenny & Co. head to a local pub to celebrate saving the world, or as it's called in New York, lunch.
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