There is www.lisp.org alias www.alu.org which features both free and
non-free lisps, see <http://www.lisp.org/table/systems.htm>.
If you will 'pick up the shovel' as you said to make a "better" Lisp
site, they have a wish list at <http://www.alu.org/admin/work.htm>.
It would be nite to collect all the information which has come up
in these threads there too.

If you prefer coding over documentation (don't we all?), I suggest
you start with your own pet complaints, e.g. make a common interface
for the various functions to dump a Lisp image.

  Good!  That's even progress on your pathological part, because you're
  beginning to understand _your_ role in "the whole spectacle".  Or so I
  presume, but I've been known to be easily disappointed because I tend
  to think that people are a lot more _conscious_ than some ridiculously
  pompous nincompoops have been known to be.  Let me know whether to
  adjust my expectations so I can't be disappointed with you.  I'll try
  and stay above "good dog!" if you fail to drool while laughing, though.

EN> I've been known to be easily disappointed because I tend to think
EN> that people are a lot more _conscious_ than some ridiculously
EN> pompous nincompoops have been known to be.

  Are you saying that the more infrequent your pathetic "contributions"
  to this forum, the better?  If so, that's the first non-stupid thing
  you've come up with so far.  Good boy!  (Don't drool, now!)

  Now, let's see if you just _have_ to answer with another stupid grin
  and no discernible contents whatsoever.   Slap your head, again, but
  do me a favor and try to hit it this time, will you.

MD> It's iffy using models of inaccessible state based on infrequent
MD> observables...

EN> Now, let's see if you just _have_ to answer with another stupid grin
EN> and no discernible contents whatsoever.

EN> Are you saying that the more infrequent your pathetic "contributions"
EN> to this forum, the better?

  Thanks for supplying me with more data on your need to keep posting
  more and more of your usual drivel, and thank you especially for not
  going to any length at all to falsify my conclucions about your needs.

  I find it downright amazing that you, of all possible people, think
  you have the ability, much less the data, to conclude what you do.
  You have never, _ever_ managed to remember anything I do except that
  which, for some psychological reason I hope never to understand, you
  have to ridicule and destroy.  You seem to think that collecting data
  is enough, but if you can't even _remember_ counter-information that
  obliterates the conclusions supposedly supported by your "data", what
  good does it do you to collect anything at all?  It only shows what
  kind of personality _you_ have, living in a fantasy world where you
  have the "option" to remove data that doesn't fit your prejudices.

  Instead of saying that you have not posted something intelligent and
  on-topic to comp.lang.lisp in the past several years, which you will
  dispute without evidence, I'll just challenge you to provide the data
  that shows that you have done something other than post followups to
  my articles with your typical snide remarks and snotty "humor".  I'll
  be happy to accept that you have posted one or two articles with some
  real contents, out of hundreds consisting only of condescending shit.
  Having to deal with leaking latrines like you is what makes this forum
  uncomfortable at times.  Most of the idiots leave or improve -- you
  stink like a bum who thinks it's somebody else's fault he won't change
  his clothes.  You have to prove to everybody what a shit you are and
  that you have no intention whatsoever of posting anything that doesn't
  reek of ridicule and condescension and disrespect for people.  I'm
  quite content that you keep proving this, but it doesn't have a place
  in a newsgroup.  It has a place in a confidential conversation between
  you and somebody who cares about you, probably because you pay them to.

  You seem to know what you are doing and doing it on purpose, however,
  and that's why it is important to expose you.  I appreciate your
  efforts to "help" me in this endeavor, of course.  Just keep the data
  flowing in with more of your idiotic, contentless, vapid comments!

  Incientally, modeling _your_ behavior is the easiest thing there is.
  You are _much_ more predictable than the world around you, and that is
  not a good sign.  And there's no doubt about that sufficiency of the
  data on your behavior, either.  It would be impossible not to conclude
  that you are condescending, disrespectful asshole from the data you
  have provided so lavishly over the years.  Maybe that's what you want
  to be and think is the best you can do, and therefore will be happy
  that I have identified you as just that, but somehow, I don't think
  so.  I still think you might want to consider yourself intelligent and
  at least somewhat constructive, but as I said, I have a bad habit of
  being disappointed with people because I keep thinking they ought to
  have some potential to think and be conscious of what they do and how
  they affect other people.  But some people don't have any potential
  left, and they usually turn to condescension and ridicule of others so
  it shall be hard to detect where they really stand themselves.  I keep
  saying "do better1" to people, but I hope you don't do better, because
  you will only become a worse human being if you do.

Sure, I'd quote you, and I have in the past.  Unfortunately, when
people do that you just attack them for being so small-minded that
they need to be literal.  Of course, quoting misses the the `big
picture' of your insights and is inadequate for capturing your subtle
sensitivity to context that can never be captured in some mere literal way.

EN> I'll just challenge you to provide the data that shows that you
EN> have done something other than post followups to my articles

It was never my claim that I was participating on comp.lang.lisp and
you were not.  My claim is that you take it upon yourself to satisfy
the predicate below (by being abusive), and that doing so biases
comp.lang.lisp toward your values and beliefs, and doesn't actually
accomplish the goal (arrogant as it is).

If you were honest about your goals you would stop posting immediately.

[anyone care to guess the predictable stupid response that Erik will
write in response?  We should have "match Erik's stupidity" contest
and everyone can join in (except Erik, who is of course disqualified).
Maybe if we had such a contest Erik would realize just how stupid
his own messages are.]

I don't think you're really listening to Erik; if you were paying
attention to what he is saying and thinking about it rather than writing
knee-jerk responses, you'd be much better off.
--
</nathan>  froy...@rose-hulman.edu  |  http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~froydnj/

  Good, we're beginning to enter "attack through generalization" space,
  and this just after you stupidly attacked me for just what you think
  is a very good idea when you do it.  I'm frankly amazed.  I thought
  you were smarter than to walk into the traps you keep setting for me.

| Of course, quoting misses the the `big picture' of your insights and
| is inadequate for capturing your subtle sensitivity to context that
| can never be captured in some mere literal way.

  Well, in line with your stated and preferred approach, what can I say
  but "always the snide remark from Marcus".  Try _breathing_ between
  your snide remarks, Marcus -- you're running on recycled exhaust.

| It was never my claim that I was participating on comp.lang.lisp and
| you were not.

  Very true, you think and behave like the outsider who thinks he does
  not influence and participate in that to which he is in fact _not_ an
  outsider.  The fact that you _keep_ posting your peculiar kind of
  never-ending snide remarks and condescending, disrespectful idiocy,
  apparently _unable_ to do anything else in a public forum, is among
  the causes of hostility and negativity here.  You can improve (read:
  quit the moron act) and the forum will improve, too.  The time may
  come when you realize this (and I do _not_ want to be there when it
  happens).  On the other hand, it has been said that most people would
  rather die than think, and many do, so I'm beginning to believe that
  there is nothing in you whatsoever except a generator of snide remarks
  and hostility, negativity, and destruction.  You have never, ever
  managed to do anything else towards me and that puts you in a class of
  perhaps a dozen people, worldwide.  Very few people are so emotionally
  prejudiced and, frankly, _sick_, that they block their ability to
  think for so long as you have done.  I have suggested in various
  subtle and not so subtle wayts that you just snap out of it for years
  and years, but nothing ever happens.  You'll just shut up for a while
  and then you come back with some rehashed snide remark, which any lab
  rat in maze would have known doesn't _work_.  So that must be how you
  prefer to deal with the world so much that whether you succeed or not
  is completely immaterial to you.  The fact is: you go away for a while
  and I stay.  95% of the people I have been harsh to over the years
  have cleaned up their act and some have even become close friends,
  especially those who figure out that if you want to influence me, you
  do it through competence and intelligence, not Marcus G. Danielsisms.

  Sorry for being soft on you tonight.  My cat has been hospitalized.

  Using yourself to understand others seldom produces correct results.

Too is the fact that because of him, a genius like myself occasionally drops
in and endow scintillating ideas. And with that, creating another hundred
gallons of avid readers like yourself.

 Xah
 x...@xahlee.org
 http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html

  Please list the ones you have taken, with year, school, and name of
  teacher, since they produce graduates who are severely dysfunctional
  and the world in general needs to know which bad teachers to avoid.

  Israel Thomas would not have posted without the "moral support" of
  Marcus G. Daniels that it is acceptable to engage in his kind of
  personalized negativism and deep and utter disrespect for people.  It
  is more important to shut Marcus G. Daniels up for good if civility
  shall return to this newsgroup than anythign else, or more stellar
  morons like him and Israel Thomas will be crawling all over the place.

  Go home to your parents, Israel Thomas, and ask them to mail me an
  apology for having raised such a rotten little bastard as yourself who
  have no respect for other people.  Or send them an apology for not
  having taken any of their good advice.  Presuming you know who they
  are, of course -- I'd have dumped you if you had shown signs of what
  you believe is good behavior and interpersonal skills any earlier.

EN> Israel Thomas would not have posted without the "moral support"
EN> Marcus G. Daniels that it is acceptable to engage in his kind of
EN> personalized negativism and deep and utter disrespect for people.

Talk about disrespecting people!  You have no way of knowing that.

EN> It is more important to shut Marcus G. Daniels up for good if civility
EN> shall return to this newsgroup than anythign else, or more stellar
EN> morons like him and Israel Thomas will be crawling all over the place.

  I don't disrespect _people_.  I don't even disrespect morons.  I don't
  disrespect you.  I don't disrespect drug addicts who shit themselves
  in public.  (I had to find something beneath you and that is not easy,
  so my apologies to drug addicts who shit themselves in private.)  I
  have absolutely no respect for what you do, nor any respect at all for
  your personal need to keep posting and exposing yourself, which is
  growing more and more ridiculous by the message, but you provide me
  with evidence that really do think in terms of disrespecting _people_.
  I made an _educated_ guess based on your past behavior and exposed
  personality that that would indeed be so.  I was correct.  Thank you.

  I do in fact have a means of knowing it.  I post something I believe
  to be true.  Marcus G. Daniels comes around as predicted and confirms
  it.  Israel Thomas sends me solid evidence of a deeply disrespectul
  personality disorder in _personal_ mail and isn't even smart enough to
  realize that he has a chance to show himself as something other than a
  retarded asshole in _personal_ communication, where nobody is watching
  him and he cannot lose credibility or whatever passes for honor in his
  family brush.  Such proves that some people really are inbred idiots,
  it is not just something they play on the Net for fun.  However, such
  people do also in fact need role models.  Real idiots like that are
  ashamed of themselves and do _not_ wish to exposed and _never_ crawl
  out of the woodwork unless they see someone who can also spell a few
  multisyllabic words correctly do what they desperately _want_ to do,
  just like shitting themselves in public is usually reserved for people
  who have completely ceased to care unless they pick up from their
  surroundings that it is culturally acceptable in some places.

  Marcus G. Daniels, the seemingly semi-literate and not staggeringly
  unintelligent yet massively condescending unwiped asshole, has _all_
  it takes to be a role model for the real idiots, and he is the only
  one who does so in comp.lang.lisp: Nobody else keeps posting so many
  so disrespectful snide remarks for so long as he does, and _nothing_
  else!  This makes him personally respsonsible for the acts of people
  who consider _him_ their role model and legitimizer.  Hence the moral
  culpability of Marcus G. Daniels and his learned disrespectfulness.

  If this doesn't rhyme well with you, Marcus, _please_ tell me again
  how come you blame me for anything that happens to this newsgroup if
  your home-made tin halo keeps _you_ immune.

  Let me know if you are _actually_ so retarded that you need help to
  understand how taking you seriously enough to consider your morally
  culpable for other people's actions by imitation is evidence of the
  fact that I respect you as a _person_.  Hint: If I didn't, I would
  just laugh at you and post some idiotic snide remarks that I'd hope
  nobody would understand really told more about myself if I did, but
  that's _you_, Marcus, which is _very_ different from me.  Get it?

| the opposite, actually..

  Your ardent beliefs in the correctness of your actions has so far
  hindered any mental maturation of significance, just as expected.

  I'm actually beginning to think that you are _invisible_ unless you
  can show disrespect for people, because that is how you manage to get
  responses to your reprehensible need to keep posting.  Yes, I respond
  to disresect, so you have found someone who helps you gain visibility,
  a fairly basic human need, but I really do pity your need to make this
  a public fact through your insistence on never doing anything else.

I suppose from your perspective it seems that way.

The only thing I've said that could, not must, be interpreted as
disrespectful was parenthetically referring to an indefinite group of
people known as the Naggum fan club -- a notion you certainly
entertained in the past.  In retrospect, it was careless of me to
mention this group, although I think you know perfectly well the
nature of its membership, since it has come up in discussion here before.

As for hate-the-sin-not-the-sinner, that's semantics -- a nice, but
unconvincing rhetorical device, especially in this context.

As you've observed, I've been following your posts.  Extrapolating
from disrespecting you to disrespecting people is not justified by
what you've seen via this bait-and-observe procedure of yours.

"People like Raffael give _people_ in general way too much importance,"
implies that technical matters of common lisp are more important than
the people discussing them, and this is clearly false, because without
these people, there simply is no discussion. Erik's style of discourse
is so hurtful that many people are driven from the discussion altogether.

People are always more important than technical discussions, because
what really is the point of technical discussions - some absract
exercise in mental masturbation? No, the point of technical discussions
is to learn to use technology to serve people better. One does not learn
to serve people better by gratuitously abusing their feelings in a
relatively insignificant technical discussion.

Erik's narrow minded focus on what is technically correct at the expense
of other people's feelings displays a foolish lack of perspective  on
technical matters and their place in the world. Technolgy, and
discussions of it exist _only_ because they are useful to people, not
the other way around.

--

That being the case, what students, users of other languages, and other
interested parties see of the lisp community is a hateful pedant, and
others who come to his defense when he viciously abuses people.

We're talking about a man who asked someone in this forum to commit
suicide. How can any reasonable person not expect such behavior to drive
people away?

--

  I was not going to respond any more to your increasingly obvious
  mental problems, but when I'm not even _people_, you have clearly made
  it all the way to full-blown insanity, and anything can happen.  It is
  only the criminally insane who no longer believe their targets are
  _people_, who are _able_ to commit violent crimes against them.  What
  keeps us all back from killing others is that we are of the same kind,
  the idea that hurting somebody else physically is a violation of very
  important principles that apply equally to ourselves, but you keep
  showing me that what applies to me does not apply to you, and now I'm
  not even people.  Losing respect for people is the first step towards
  the criminally insane mind.  Losing the ability to think of other
  human beings as of one's own kind is the last, the idea that one is
  different from others, an outsider to humanity.  You have crossed that
  crucial line, probably a long time ago.  I wonder what kind of people
  you have already killed or hurt and how they offended you, if it was
  enough to say something you disagreed with, or if they said something
  that you thought was bad, so you could hurt them without remorse,
  because you have none of that, either, and never have, as the record
  shows with frighteningly extreme clarity.

  I'm glad you finally admit to disrespecting me, however, and that you
  do so as if it is something you are entitled to and proud of.  You
  really are mentally sick.  That _is_ good to know, however.  I'm sorry
  I have wasted so much time on you, but the end result, that I have a
  criminally insane stalker named Marcus G. Daniels out there who has
  actually lost the ability to consider others as human beings, is a
  _little_ easier to deal with than if you were sane and smart and just
  plain evil, which I thought at first.  Now I can ignore you, like you
  actually deserved from the beginning, and you can go back to your sick
  oblivion where you won't be visible until you can disrespect and annoy
  somebody else who responds to you, probably until you kill them or do
  physical, violent harm to them.  Insane stalkers like you can safely
  be left to the police.  The kind of evil intelligence that continues
  to post disrespectful snide remarks for years on end cannot, as it is
  and must be within our concept of freedom of speech, but it is very
  seldom _just_ that, as we have discovered about you today.  Both the
  sick obsession with me, which actually scared me a long time, and the
  insistence of your stabs, were good indicators several years ago that
  you had a problem that went far beyond the reality of the situation.
  Your insane rant about bizarre cults was the first solid clue, but now
  that you have excluded me from the category "people", too, it is no
  longer about me, and it probably never was about me at all, I was just
  so unlucky as to push one of your buttons.  That has happend only once
  before, but he got a three-year jail sentence for the stuff he did,
  not just towards me, but to a few other people who pushed his buttons
  and caused him to create demonic and monstrous images of people that
  he thought he was in his right to hunt down.  This horrible experience
  is part of the reason why I make such a big deal about not attacking
  people, only their actions, not their person, only their choices, and
  why it is important to let people get an unlimited number of chances
  to change their ways for the better, which must be rewarded and their
  past ignored when they do.  But some people can't change -- they have
  lost the ability to be fully human, and they end up hurting people or
  their property because they no longer consider them principally the
  same as themselves.  You are that kind of person, Marcus G. Daniels.
  Other people ought to beware of you.  Your inability to discern fact
  from fantasy, such as in your sick exaggerations about me and what I
  do, means that nobody is safe around you.  I don't know what caused
  you to attach to me, but I know it scared me when it happened about
  seven years ago if memory serves me right.  Other people must know
  that you attach to people and obsess about them and fantasize about
  them and create demonic images that you cease to compare with reality
  before you act on them.  You attack people for something they do not
  in fact do just because your own mental images of them tells you what
  they _should_ have done if your mental image is to remain correct, and
  it is much more important to keep the mental image intact than to quit
  the obsession with people.  I pegged you as a religious fanatic first
  because they share the same mental disorder: That of raising their
  beliefs so far above reality that any observation that does not fit
  the belief is simply discarded -- hence your exaggerations about me,
  your demonic image that is not me at all, and your obsession about me
  over so many years, complete with hundreds of pointless snide remarks
  only directed towards me.  That kind of patience is _frightening_ from
  a person who has lost the ability to think of others as human beings
  and provably does _anything_ he can to hurt somebody else.

  There's no hope for you, Marcus G. Daniels, but others need to know
  that if they see someone place themselves _outside_ what they do to
  other people, _outside_ any group of people for whatever reason and
  whichever kind of group, even the so-called social outcasts, and they
  defend their actions by virtue of being outsiders, you look straight
  at a person capable of evil and violent crimes.  It's not just about
  absence of empathy and remorse, but about their ability to be part of
  humanity.  Once somebody loses their bond to humanity and think that
  some people are not the same kind of people as themselves, somehow
  exempt from the rules that bind them, you have people whose ethics
  _first_ has to determine whether the other person is "their kind"
  before it applies at all.  Racists are the easiest example: People who
  respond emotionally to somebody who bears the genetic manifestations
  of a different group and therefore to them sufficiently different that
  they are no longer bound by the ethics that apply to "their kind" of
  human.  Racists actually do kill people because of this conviction
  alone, but racism is not a cause.  Disrespect for people, be it one or
  everybody else, is the root cause: They have set up the distinction
  between two groups: Whom to treat within their ethical boundaries and
  whom not to.  People who first consider _who_ somebody is don't have
  time to respond emotionally to anything else -- our emotions are very
  simple things.  Either we fear people or we fear actions.  I don't
  know what goes wrong or how early, but some people get their wiring
  wrong seemingly at a young age and make that mistake for the rest of
  their lives.  I don't think they can be rewired except through so much
  pain that they regress to the point before that wiring was laid down.
  This is _not_ an issue of what people think or believe, it is _how_
  they think and believe.  They can be described in words and language,
  but they cannot seemingly be reached with words and language, as no
  amount of counter-evidence affects _how_ you accept the evidence, or
  filter it out, as the case may be.  Take Marcus G. Daniels, who says
  he has been following my posts, but he summarizes them with a total
  absence of nuances and reflection.  He has not _seen_ deviations from
  his expectations for many years.  To him, a deviation from expectation
  is an _error_ in the observation and the facts, which he must have
  ignored systematically through all these years.  To people who are
  wired right, an expectation that does not come true is a signal that
  the _expectation_ was wrong.  What causes some people to prioritize
  their own _prejudiced_ expectations and disregard reality?  What
  causes someone to hold onto expectations that only come true once in a
  while, without even considering new relations and causes but holding
  on harder to what he already believes?  Can such people be trusted at
  all?  Can they do any work with their mind at all?