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From: David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.javascript,comp.lang.lisp
Subject: Re: ANNC: qooxlisp 0.1: Driving Miss qooxdoo (from Common Lisp)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 07:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
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On Jun 1, 12:15=A0am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David Mark wrote:
> > On May 31, 4:52 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> David Mark wrote:
> >>> On May 31, 12:11 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> David Mark wrote:
> >>>>> On May 30, 11:06 pm, Kenny <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> David Mark wrote:
> >>>>>>> On May 30, 3:35 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> David Mark wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On May 30, 1:49 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> qooxdoo + Common Lisp (+ Cells, a common lisp dataflow hack):
> >>>>>>>>>> =A0 =A0http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/qooxlisp/
> >>>>>>>>> Qooxdoo + anything < 0; // true
> >>>>>>>> Dave! Whassup?!
> >>>>>>> Oh, that's right. =A0It's "Kenny" from a ways back. =A0I should h=
ave made
> >>>>>>> the connection as AFAIK you were/are the only person on earth usi=
ng
> >>>>>>> Qooxdoo.
> >>>>>>>> I considered building a framework atop your stuff to make for mu=
ch
> >>>>>>>> lighter initial loads but needed a quick win.
> >>>>>>> Or perhaps the fleeting illusion of such? =A0We went over this ad
> >>>>>>> nauseam. =A0Qooxdoo is a bloated, outdated, over-engineered pile =
of
> >>>>>>> browser sniffing crap-ola (see also Dojo).
> >>>>>>>> (and qooxdoo rocks for RIAs).
> >>>>>>> Sucks, Kenny. =A0Sucks for RIA's. =A0Perhaps there was a breakdow=
n in
> >>>>>>> communication?
> >>>>>> I think it was a breakdown in parallel universes. In mine qooxdoo =
works
> >>>>>> brilliantly.
> >>>>> Based on what evidence? =A0I'm guessing you tried it in a handful o=
f
> >>>>> browsers you had handy and figured if it appeared to work in those,=
 it
> >>>>> must be "brilliant". =A0Did it ever occur to you that the authors o=
f
> >>>>> qooxdoo tried the same browsers before you and inserted lots of hac=
ks
> >>>>> and sniffs to make them appear to work? =A0What do you think will h=
appen
> >>>>> in anything older, newer or unknown to the authors?
> >>>> I'll lose 0.01% of my market for a week until the ten full-time
> >>>> engineers paid to work on qooxdoo patch it?
> >>> You don't understand at all. =A0For one, these "engineers" are the on=
es
> >>> who are screwing up in the first place. =A0They are selling you the
> >>> problem and a lifetime subscription to their future (temporary)
> >>> solutions.
> >> I explained elsewhere that I know from examining their code (and from
> >> seeing the result) how good they are, so this argument just begs the
> >> question to which you have the incorrect answer.
>
> > That only serves to illustrate how bad your judgment is. =A0Since when
> > do you have a clue about JS and/or browser scripting?
>
> You seem not to be a very good programmer: quality exists at a higher
> level than a particular language's syntax, and any good programmer knows
> that.

Of course, nothing noted so far is even remotely related to syntax.

>
>
>
> > And how did you miss the bits we went over here? =A0
>
> The good news is I am using qooxdoo and will never have to waste my time
> on that crap.
>
>
>
> > That's obviously low-
> > level code, which means they've piled a ton of other abstractions on
> > top of a completely asinine design. =A0Changing the bad low-level
> > design(s) will likely entail rewriting much of what sits atop it. =A0In
> > other words, they got way too far ahead of themselves and are now
> > screwed (as are you).
>
> >>> Like similar libraries/frameworks, qooxdoo forks based on browser
> >>> sniffs. =A0So when a new version of IE (for example) comes out and
> >>> invalidates their ill-advised inferences, they have two choices:-
> >>> 1. Add more forks based on the sniffed version of IE
> >>> 2. Declare the older versions of IE "dead"
> >>> The first choice obviously makes the code longer, messier and harder
> >>> to maintain with each iteration. =A0To see the long-term effects of s=
uch
> >>> a strategy, take a gander at the Dojo source.
> >>> The second, despite its recent popularity, is insane as the end-users
> >>> don't know their browsers are deceased. =A0There are plenty of users
> >>> stuck with IE6/7 with no recourse (e.g. corporate users). =A0XP users
> >>> will never see IE9, so are forever stuck with IE8 (which they can
> >>> change to work like IE7 with a single button push). =A0And no, you ca=
n't
> >>> just tell them to download FF. =A0Some users aren't allowed to instal=
l
> >>> alternate browsers and others don't know what a browser is.
> >>> And the last thing you should want is to have to swap out a complex
> >>> blob of JS, just to "keep up" with new browsers. =A0Invariably, there
> >>> will be compatibility problems as rearranging their browser sniffing
> >>> will not be all those "engineers" are up to in the interim. =A0You'll
> >>> inherit lots of "nice-to-have" features suggested by other users
> >>> (assuming qooxdoo has any other users at this point).
> >>> Also, how did you come up with 0.01%? =A0It sounds arbitrary and self=
-
> >>> serving (or perhaps self-deluding).
> >> You stipulated undiscovered browser or new version of a popular browse=
r
> >> during its first week, the longest it would take for qooxdoo to
> >> adopt...
>
> > I recognize the words, but that sentence makes no sense.
>
> >> OK, 0.01% might be high.
>
> > I think you are high. =A0:)
>
> >>> =A0Remember that qooxdoo is going to
> >>> be much too bloated and slow for most mobile devices (and you can't
> >>> patch that). =A0Did you factor that into your equation?
> >> Not my market, fortunately. I am also fotunate in that I am doing a ri=
xh
> >> web app where someone would likely work for 30min at a minimum, so pag=
es
> >> can take 5s to load.
>
> > But I thought you said qooxdoo was the "fastest". (?)
>
> Once it is loaded, yep.

Not a chance.  Mine will certainly clean its clock on any common task
in any browser.

> Sure, I'd love it to load instantly, but my
> application is for folks who will be spending 20-60min trying to learn
> Algebra. They have 4 seconds.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> These concepts are not difficult to understand. =A0I rarely have trou=
ble
> >>> explaining them to non-programmers.
> >>>>>>>> Maybe for my next effort, if you 'll do an LGPL license for it.
> >>>>>>> Last I checked it had an MIT license. =A0That was the consensus c=
hoice.
> >>>>>>> I have no idea how that differs from an LGPL license and don't ca=
re to
> >>>>>>> find out. =A0Use it or don't.
> >>>>>> Oh, great, I do MIT, too. Last /I/ checked your stuff was licensed=
 "ask me".
> >>>>> Yeah, and lots did. =A0Most of those got a free license. =A0People =
who
> >>>>> didn't ask got nothing. =A0Go figure. =A0:)
> >>>> Oh, you just wanted to have us come grovelling to your door hat in h=
and?
> >>>> Great!
> >>> You seem to have amnesia as we went over this some time back. =A0The
> >>> point was that I would grant licenses on a case-by-case basis.
> >>>>>> Well, see if you like this:
> >>>>>>http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/qooxlisp/the-cells-insidetm-qoox=
lisp
> >>>>> What about it?
> >>>> Wow, you learned nothing, eh? That is the price of knowing everythin=
g, I
> >>>> guess. But at least you know everything.
> >>> You sound drunk. =A0What was I supposed to learn from that? =A0You po=
sted
> >>> a link to an article with no context. =A0Again, what about it?
> >>>>>> We could do the same with raw HTML/js
> >>>>> Raw HTML?
> >>>> Keep up the good fight! Still programming in assembly language?
> >>>> :)
> >>> That doesn't make any sense either. =A0I am programming in the same
> >>> language as you and your "engineer" friends. =A0HTH.
> >> Sorry, are you autistic?
>
> > Ah, don't apologize (except perhaps to those afflicted with autism).
>
> >> It was analogy.
>
> > Nope.
>
> Yup. Maybe you are too young to get it.

No, it was not an analogy and of course I got what you were trying to
say.  It's hardly an original line.