qooxdoo trouble
Kenneth Tilton
widget itself. Dig dig dig... aha! I had noticed they had cocked things
up by not letting the complex item have a "model" property, and guess
where the problem originated?
The neat thing is I could then go here:
http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/playground/#
Recreate the problem, and then post a link to it as an SPR!:
Click away from the complex item and then try to reselect it. No dice.
I then added the model property in my code base and got on with pretty
much finishing (in about six weeks full-time) the port of a desktop
application to the web:
Those six weeks included a refresher on qooxdoo as well as some new bits
and even worse, making friends with jsMath. Not that jsMath is not a
great, easy-to-use library, but I am using it more dynamically than it
is intended to be so ... actually, some work remains as you'll see from
occasional misplaced math or mis-sized containers.
Anyway, should be a much nicer year in Algebra for kids everywhere.
Thx again to the folks in comp.lang.lisp who turned me on to qooxdoo and
jsMath, and the folks in comp.lang.javascript who did absolutely nothing
to help except entertain me during the rough bits. :)
kt
--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
"The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
Macworld
Kenneth Tilton
report with screenshot and now notice a telltale pixel at the very top
of the buttons. This is my unresolved issue with getting positioning
info from jsMath so I can accurately position those things within
qooxdoo widgets: the character is there, it's just positioned outside
the widget.
Hmmm. Maybe this is a qooxdoo issue. They have an Html widget for raw
HTML. Seems to me it should accept responsibility for displaying all the
HTML absent any misguided directives from moi-self.
dig dig dig....
David Mark
> Weird radio group behavior when one used a radio item that was a complex
> widget itself.
I could guess what that means, but I don't have time to speculate
about qooxdoo.
> Dig dig dig... aha! I had noticed they had cocked things
> up by not letting the complex item have a "model" property, and guess
> where the problem originated?
See above.
>
> The neat thing is I could then go here:
>
> http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/playground/#
I will guess that - whatever that is - I wouldn't find it "neat".
>
> Recreate the problem, and then post a link to it as an SPR!:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/296hdjg
Great.
>
> Click away from the complex item and then try to reselect it. No dice.
You crapped out. Hate to say I told you so...
>
> I then added the model property in my code base and got on with pretty
> much finishing (in about six weeks full-time) the port of a desktop
> application to the web:
Another patch? Upgrading that behemoth is sure to be that much more
fun.
I've seen enough of that, thank you.
>
> Those six weeks included a refresher on qooxdoo as well as some new bits
> and even worse, making friends with jsMath.
With friends like that... :)
> Not that jsMath is not a
> great, easy-to-use library,
I established that it is not.
> but I am using it more dynamically than it
> is intended to be so ... actually, some work remains as you'll see from
> occasional misplaced math or mis-sized containers.
No I won't.
>
> Anyway, should be a much nicer year in Algebra for kids everywhere.
I doubt it.
>
> Thx again to the folks in comp.lang.lisp who turned me on to qooxdoo and
> jsMath,
LOL. Why would you ask LISP-ers to recommend browser scripts? You
got what you deserved.
> and the folks in comp.lang.javascript who did absolutely nothing
> to help except entertain me during the rough bits. :)
>
Clearly you'll never learn. :(
David Mark
> re the "blank" keys issue Mr. Streater reported, I have had another such
> report with screenshot and now notice a telltale pixel at the very top
> of the buttons.
Oops, trouble in "paradise". :)
> This is my unresolved issue with getting positioning
> info from jsMath so I can accurately position those things within
> qooxdoo widgets: the character is there, it's just positioned outside
> the widget.
Ah, that's a shame. If only you'd use real buttons.
>
> Hmmm. Maybe this is a qooxdoo issue.
Very likely suspect.
> They have an Html widget for raw
> HTML.
Again with that. Why would you use an "HTML widget" to write HTML.
The very idea is mind-boggling. Do they also have a "CSS widget" and
a "JS widget"?
> Seems to me it should accept responsibility for displaying all the
> HTML absent any misguided directives from moi-self.
Seems to me that you have abdicated responsibility for tasks that you
don't know how to do to others who are also without a clue. That's
certainly misguided (but a popular approach in Web development).
>
> dig dig dig....
You'll be in China before this is over. :)
And enough with the qooxdoo diary entries. They are obviously of no
interest to this group.
Kenneth Tilton
> On Jul 30, 10:55 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> re the "blank" keys issue Mr. Streater reported, I have had another such
>> report with screenshot and now notice a telltale pixel at the very top
>> of the buttons.
>
> Oops, trouble in "paradise". :)
Yes, I am ruined. All is lost*. I thought this would make you happy,
which is why I shared it.
* Not.
>
>> This is my unresolved issue with getting positioning
>> info from jsMath so I can accurately position those things within
>> qooxdoo widgets: the character is there, it's just positioned outside
>> the widget.
>
> Ah, that's a shame. If only you'd use real buttons.
Actually, I think this is exactly /why/ I am not writing my own html.
But to use jsMath I will have to make it work within the qooxdoo
framework. Pray for me.
>
>> Hmmm. Maybe this is a qooxdoo issue.
>
> Very likely suspect.
I'll be sure to report back (as if you had any doubt).
>
>> They have an Html widget for raw
>> HTML.
>
> Again with that. Why would you use an "HTML widget" to write HTML.
> The very idea is mind-boggling. Do they also have a "CSS widget" and
> a "JS widget"?
What is mind-boggling is your density. Move over, osmium! Aside from
qooxdoo's speed and quality, its big win is that one need not do
html/css. Unless of course one wants to, in which case one trots out the
qx.ui.embed.Html widget.
My guess (based on inspection of jsMath-generated html is that, for
things with interesting vertical positioning issues such as fractions,
jsMath is positioning stuff at a negative vertical offset (if up is
negative in html-land) and the qooxdoo widget is not allowing that. But
I /am/ guessing.
>
>> Seems to me it should accept responsibility for displaying all the
>> HTML absent any misguided directives from moi-self.
>
> Seems to me that you have abdicated responsibility for tasks that you
> don't know how to do to others who are also without a clue. That's
> certainly misguided (but a popular approach in Web development).
You say "abdicate", I say "standing on the shoulders". As for "without a
clue", they have done a lot more with JS than you have based on your two
sites. You might want to take a break from Usenet and write some more
code, maybe you could have me as a user some day.
>
>> dig dig dig....
>
> You'll be in China before this is over. :)
>
> And enough with the qooxdoo diary entries. They are obviously of no
> interest to this group.
Sorry, I did not realize this was your newsgroup... hang on...
Kenneth Tilton
> On Jul 30, 8:13 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Weird radio group behavior when one used a radio item that was a complex
>> widget itself.
>
> I could guess what that means, but I don't have time to speculate
> about qooxdoo.
>
>> Dig dig dig... aha! I had noticed they had cocked things
>> up by not letting the complex item have a "model" property, and guess
>> where the problem originated?
>
> See above.
>
>> The neat thing is I could then go here:
>>
>> http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/playground/#
>
> I will guess that - whatever that is - I wouldn't find it "neat".
>
>> Recreate the problem, and then post a link to it as an SPR!:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/296hdjg
>
> Great.
>
>> Click away from the complex item and then try to reselect it. No dice.
>
> You crapped out. Hate to say I told you so...
I was too subtle. There was no trouble, I said that just to get your
hopes up. There was a bug in qooxdoo, I reported it and they fixed it a
few minutes later since the fix was a no-brainer.
It's called programming. You should try it some time.
>
>> I then added the model property in my code base and got on with pretty
>> much finishing (in about six weeks full-time) the port of a desktop
>> application to the web:
>
> Another patch? Upgrading that behemoth is sure to be that much more
> fun.
>
>> http://teamalgebra.com/
>
> I've seen enough of that, thank you.
Look again, there is more every week. Now you can level up (ask a
teenager what that means) through Algebra. Lots of other improvements,
too, though lots more to come. Not alpha yet, but approaching it.
>
>> Those six weeks included a refresher on qooxdoo as well as some new bits
>> and even worse, making friends with jsMath.
>
> With friends like that... :)
>
>> Not that jsMath is not a
>> great, easy-to-use library,
>
> I established that it is not.
Aw, come on, he's brought TeX to the web, give it up for the guy. Maybe
you'll like the successor: http://www.mathjax.org/
>
>> but I am using it more dynamically than it
>> is intended to be so ... actually, some work remains as you'll see from
>> occasional misplaced math or mis-sized containers.
>
> No I won't.
>
>> Anyway, should be a much nicer year in Algebra for kids everywhere.
>
> I doubt it.
Doubt these: http://www.stuckonalgebra.com/fan_mail.html
Two letters from teachers seeking out my software more than ten years
after their last use because (a) they missed it and (b) they could find
nothing like it. Excerpt to die for:
"Of all of the software I have used in the evolution of school math and
computers, your Algebra I Homework Tutor was the most elegant and
practical."
Eat your heart out! btw, if you surf the qooxdoo site each page refresh
brings a new, similar encomium from their happy users: http://qooxdoo.org/
Got anything like that for your library?
>
>> Thx again to the folks in comp.lang.lisp who turned me on to qooxdoo and
>> jsMath,
>
> LOL. Why would you ask LISP-ers to recommend browser scripts?
Lispers know everything; I would not buy a lawn mower without checking
with them.
David Mark
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 30, 10:55 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> re the "blank" keys issue Mr. Streater reported, I have had another such
> >> report with screenshot and now notice a telltale pixel at the very top
> >> of the buttons.
>
> > Oops, trouble in "paradise". :)
>
> Yes, I am ruined. All is lost*. I thought this would make you happy,
> which is why I shared it.
>
Yes, well that's a shame. But if you think my smileys mean that I'm
happy about something, you are mistaken.
JFTR, my smiley's, frownies, winkies, etc. are usually meaningless
mockery. Filter them out and the full meaning of the prose should
still be clear to all but the uninitiated. However the lack of a
smiley after a joke or ironic comment is one of my favored devices.
I can't understand why the typical Usenet denizen is confused by my
stuff. I often get the "are you serious?!" reaction, when it should
be clear that I have serious contempt for anyone who takes Usenet
seriously. ;)
But I digress.
> * Not.
In all seriousness, I'd lose that device.
>
>
>
> >> This is my unresolved issue with getting positioning
> >> info from jsMath so I can accurately position those things within
> >> qooxdoo widgets: the character is there, it's just positioned outside
> >> the widget.
>
> > Ah, that's a shame. If only you'd use real buttons.
>
> Actually, I think this is exactly /why/ I am not writing my own html.
So, because qooxdoo's faux buttons exhibit problems that standard HTML
buttons do not share, you decided to eschew HTML for qooxdoo. Odd
choice.
> But to use jsMath I will have to make it work within the qooxdoo
> framework.
Your chosen math library requires qooxdoo?
> Pray for me.
Sure. Send me $100(US) per month and I'll put in a good word for you
with the volcano God.
>
>
>
> >> Hmmm. Maybe this is a qooxdoo issue.
>
> > Very likely suspect.
>
> I'll be sure to report back (as if you had any doubt).
I don't doubt it, but I wish you wouldn't. You are simply wasting
time and space.
>
>
>
> >> They have an Html widget for raw
> >> HTML.
>
> > Again with that. Why would you use an "HTML widget" to write HTML.
> > The very idea is mind-boggling. Do they also have a "CSS widget" and
> > a "JS widget"?
>
> What is mind-boggling is your density.
Destiny?
> Move over, osmium!
Who?
> Aside from
> qooxdoo's speed and quality, its big win is that one need not do
> html/css.
Right, well we've been over that. The losses just keep piling up, but
you are too deluded to see it.
> Unless of course one wants to, in which case one trots out the
> qx.ui.embed.Html widget.
In which case their app will break down and have to be destroyed. :)
>
> My guess (based on inspection of jsMath-generated html is that, for
> things with interesting vertical positioning issues such as fractions,
> jsMath is positioning stuff at a negative vertical offset (if up is
> negative in html-land) and the qooxdoo widget is not allowing that.
Sounds like a match made in heaven.
> But I /am/ guessing.
The issue was never in doubt.
>
>
>
> >> Seems to me it should accept responsibility for displaying all the
> >> HTML absent any misguided directives from moi-self.
>
> > Seems to me that you have abdicated responsibility for tasks that you
> > don't know how to do to others who are also without a clue. That's
> > certainly misguided (but a popular approach in Web development).
>
> You say "abdicate", I say "standing on the shoulders".
...of midgets.
> As for "without a
> clue", they have done a lot more with JS than you have based on your two
> sites.
You don't build sites with JS, Kenny. Oh wait... :)
> You might want to take a break from Usenet and write some more
> code, maybe you could have me as a user some day.
You really are out of it, aren't you?
>
>
>
> >> dig dig dig....
>
> > You'll be in China before this is over. :)
>
> > And enough with the qooxdoo diary entries. They are obviously of no
> > interest to this group.
>
> Sorry, I did not realize this was your newsgroup... hang on...
There have been a lot of complaints from the tenants.
John G Harris
wrote:
<snip>
> http://teamalgebra.com/
<snip>
Still very slow to load.
Training center, Numeric Fractions, Adding and Subtracting :
The numbers in the boxes are only partly visible - just the bottom
quarter of the bottom number.
Is this the library problem you were talking about ?
John
--
John Harris
Nisse Engström
Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...
When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab], I get
"G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).
And there are heaps of other peculiarities on that site.
/Nisse
Kenneth Tilton
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>
>> http://teamalgebra.com/
>
> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...
Or unsupported browser or both, but...
>
> When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab],
Yeah, I hate that. I suppose I could find a workaround but not sure it
matters to my app.
> I get
> "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).
Re the latter, yeah, I need to get that preventDefault back in there in
re the shortcut.
Anyway, I am making headway on the jsMath and can confirm the "mssing
keys" phenomenon. My test of "without installed TeX fonts" was flawed,
but that is sorted out now. I am actually developing now without TeX
fonts installed. Next release later today will work /unless/ TeX fonts
are installed (but I think I can make it work both ways with a quick
hack, deeper fix in a day or seven).
Kenneth Tilton
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 at 20:13:13, in comp.lang.javascript, Kenneth Tilton
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> http://teamalgebra.com/
> <snip>
>
> Still very slow to load.
I need numbers!! Recently frickin WordPad on MS took ten seconds to
bring up the "Save As..." dialog. In user mode I went <sigh>, in
software critique mode I would scream "Death to Microsoft!". Louder than
usual, I mean.
Also browsers and geographical locations and... to be honest, I
sometimes see slow loads, then I reset my browser and all is well. My
Lisp server might be being stupid.
>
> Training center, Numeric Fractions, Adding and Subtracting :
> The numbers in the boxes are only partly visible - just the bottom
> quarter of the bottom number.
>
> Is this the library problem you were talking about ?
Yep. Not sure if it is qooxdoo, jsMath, or me.
jsMath expects to be generating Html embedded in a pile of raw HTML
written by David Mark, not a qooxdoo qx.ui.embed.Html widget programmed
by me. Somewhere from to three of us (me, jsMath, and qooxdoo) is
fucking up.
I blame Mark.
David Mark
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> > http://teamalgebra.com/
>
> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...
That's as maybe, but the culprit here is likely Kenny's flaky app.
>
> When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab],
That I don't mind as I don't think tabbed interfaces should mimic
navigation. They should persist their state though (e.g. with
cookies, local storage, etc.)
> I get
> "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).
> And there are heaps of other peculiarities on that site.
>
Not unsurprising and it will require debugging a meg of dubious JS to
track them down.
David Mark
> Nisse Engström wrote:
> > On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>
> >> http://teamalgebra.com/
>
> > Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...
>
> Or unsupported browser or both, but...
How do you quantify what you "support" with a browser sniffing
framework like qooxdoo? Do you just take their word for it?
And I believe Nisse is using the latest Opera.
>
>
>
> > When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab],
>
> Yeah, I hate that. I suppose I could find a workaround but not sure it
> matters to my app.
>
> > I get
> > "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).
>
> Re the latter, yeah, I need to get that preventDefault back in there in
> re the shortcut.
Which may or may not be effective.
>
> Anyway, I am making headway on the jsMath and can confirm the "mssing
> keys" phenomenon. My test of "without installed TeX fonts" was flawed,
> but that is sorted out now. I am actually developing now without TeX
> fonts installed. Next release later today will work /unless/ TeX fonts
> are installed (but I think I can make it work both ways with a quick
> hack, deeper fix in a day or seven).
>
Or seventy, by which time qooxdoo will have released a new version to
"support" the latest browsers and all of your patches will have to be
redone.
You are on a treadmill, Kenny. You really should learn HTML, CSS and
JS before trying to write a Web application. Basically, you are
trying to do algebra before you've learned basic arithmetic. ;)
Kenneth Tilton
Let's see what the browser/engine is first. Team qooxdoo seems to have
run up the white flag on Opera key events. My investors (me) are
prepared to lose that market. Of course if Mr. Mark can provide a
/universal/ HTML API for key events I'll just load his code and embed my
client code that uses it in a qx.ui.embed.Html widget and be singing his
praises too.
kt
I waded thru more than a little qooxdoo code to determine they had left
the model property off the RadioGroupBox widget. Doing so was not the
end of the world. Sorry. k
Kenneth Tilton
> On Jul 31, 3:03 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Nisse Engström wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
>>>> http://teamalgebra.com/
>>> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...
>> Or unsupported browser or both, but...
>
> How do you quantify what you "support" with a browser sniffing
> framework like qooxdoo? Do you just take their word for it?
You lost me there. Are you saying their browser-sniffing can guess
wrong? On what percent of users? Hint.
>
> And I believe Nisse is using the latest Opera.
Opera? A tragedy, yes? From qooxdoo:
"Opera issues
Opera is the most broken browser concerning keyboard events. It supports
enough to use the keyboard for navigation but complex key commands
cannot be detected.
All key combinations containing the Alt key cannot be detected.
The modifier flags are only set in keypress events. This makes
qx.client.Command in Opera unable to catch most interesting keyboard
shortcuts.
Opera sets only the keyCode property of the DOM event. Because of that,
it is not possible to decide if the code in keypress events is a key
code or a char code. Since both codes may overlap, collisions may occur.
In need for a consistent solution, the current key handler
implementation always prefers the special keys over the normal keys. For
example, “s” and “F5” both have a code of 115 in Opera. In this case
qooxdoo would prefer “F5” over the “s” key."
>> Re the latter, yeah, I need to get that preventDefault back in there in
>> re the shortcut.
>
> Which may or may not be effective.
Well, it might not be live yet, but I have code in the dev version now
that refuses to handle anything but webkit, gecko, and ie.
I'll keep plugging on this issue, but what happened was I tossed the
prevent handling at a low level then later tossed all handling of what
qooxdoo calls keypress. The former was OK, the latter should have been
to still do the preventdefault but no more (ie. no round-trip to server
which was ignoring those events anyway).
>
>> Anyway, I am making headway on the jsMath and can confirm the "mssing
>> keys" phenomenon. My test of "without installed TeX fonts" was flawed,
>> but that is sorted out now. I am actually developing now without TeX
>> fonts installed. Next release later today will work /unless/ TeX fonts
>> are installed (but I think I can make it work both ways with a quick
>> hack, deeper fix in a day or seven).
>>
>
> Or seventy, by which time qooxdoo will have released a new version to
> "support" the latest browsers and all of your patches will have to be
> redone.
Are you hoping it is seventy, or hoping I get it sorted out tonight?
>
> You are on a treadmill, Kenny. You really should learn HTML, CSS and
> JS before trying to write a Web application. Basically, you are
> trying to do algebra before you've learned basic arithmetic. ;)
One thing you do not seem to be coming up to speed on as quickly as I
thought you might is that I understand fully the trade-offs one
undertakes when adopting a library such that (a) in most cases one
indeed does not want to adopt a library but (b) in exceptional cases
(such as qooxdoo and jsMath) the added value of the library hugely
exceeds the effort that will be needed to get along with them.
As a corollary, you seem unaware that I am Mr. NIH, not as a bug, but as
a feature. And I am using qooxdoo and jsMath ecstatically over how fast
I have brought a wysiwyg math editor to the web.
Is your brain nothing but one great honking anti-library neuron?
David Mark
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 31, 2:36 pm, Nisse Engström <news.NOSPAM.id...@luden.se> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> >>> http://teamalgebra.com/
> >> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...
>
> > That's as maybe, but the culprit here is likely Kenny's flaky app.
>
> >> When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab],
>
> > That I don't mind as I don't think tabbed interfaces should mimic
> > navigation. They should persist their state though (e.g. with
> > cookies, local storage, etc.)
>
> >> I get
> >> "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut).
> >> And there are heaps of other peculiarities on that site.
>
> > Not unsurprising and it will require debugging a meg of dubious JS to
> > track them down.
>
> Let's see what the browser/engine is first.
I already told you.
> Team qooxdoo seems to have
> run up the white flag on Opera key events.
They can't even make it work *with* browser sniffing? Some team
you've got there. :(
> My investors (me) are
> prepared to lose that market.
Odd for European developers to give up on a browser that is very
popular in Europe. Lately it has gotten a boost from MS offering it
as an IE alternative.
> Of course if Mr. Mark can provide a
> /universal/ HTML API for key events I'll just load his code and embed my
> client code that uses it in a qx.ui.embed.Html widget and be singing his
> praises too.
Do you read this group or just post? I've long since tamed the
keyboard (and yes, that includes Opera). But I don't write add-ons
for qooxdoo.
[...]
>
> I waded thru more than a little qooxdoo code to determine they had left
> the model property off the RadioGroupBox widget.
That's too bad.
> Doing so was not the
> end of the world. Sorry. k
>
Nothing is the end of world, is it? But one problem after another
indicates you would have been better off without qooxdoo.
David Mark
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 31, 3:03 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Nisse Engström wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> >>>> http://teamalgebra.com/
> >>> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard...
> >> Or unsupported browser or both, but...
>
> > How do you quantify what you "support" with a browser sniffing
> > framework like qooxdoo? Do you just take their word for it?
>
> You lost me there. Are you saying their browser-sniffing can guess
> wrong? On what percent of users? Hint.
>
>
>
> > And I believe Nisse is using the latest Opera.
>
> Opera? A tragedy, yes? From qooxdoo:
No. It's an excellent browser, despite a few quirks.
>
> "Opera issues
> Opera is the most broken browser concerning keyboard events.
What does that mean? It can't handle typing "g=mc2=="? I assure you
it can.
> It supports
> enough to use the keyboard for navigation but complex key commands
> cannot be detected.
That's a design mistake on the part of the qooxdoo developers and they
are attempting to deflect the blame to Opera.
>
> All key combinations containing the Alt key cannot be detected.
Rubbish. And why would they attempt to do something so silly?
> The modifier flags are only set in keypress events.
Also rubbish. They are making up wild stories. And what if it were
true?
> This makes
> qx.client.Command in Opera unable to catch most interesting keyboard
> shortcuts.
You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about (no
matter what your definition of "interesting").
> Opera sets only the keyCode property of the DOM event.
As with the previous nonsense, that's completely and demonstrably
*false*. In other words, they don't know what they are talking about
either.
> Because of that,
> it is not possible to decide if the code in keypress events is a key
> code or a char code.
Also pure fantasy. You really don't read this group at all, do you?
Bad form.
> Since both codes may overlap, collisions may occur.
Nope.
> In need for a consistent solution, the current key handler
> implementation always prefers the special keys over the normal keys.
Technobabble intended to misdirect inexperienced (and gullible)
developers.
> For
> example, “s” and “F5” both have a code of 115 in Opera. In this case
> qooxdoo would prefer “F5” over the “s” key."
LOL. You have bet on the proverbial bad pony.
>
> >> Re the latter, yeah, I need to get that preventDefault back in there in
> >> re the shortcut.
>
> > Which may or may not be effective.
>
> Well, it might not be live yet, but I have code in the dev version now
> that refuses to handle anything but webkit, gecko, and ie.
I highly doubt that, considering how many variations of Gecko and
Webkit exist. But, even if it were true, it's still a failure.
>
> I'll keep plugging on this issue, but what happened was I tossed the
> prevent handling at a low level then later tossed all handling of what
> qooxdoo calls keypress.
I suggest you toss the whole thing. ;)
> The former was OK, the latter should have been
> to still do the preventdefault but no more (ie. no round-trip to server
> which was ignoring those events anyway).
You can't do round-trips on every key event. As you've been told
repeatedly, it's pure lunacy (and doomed to fail).
>
>
>
> >> Anyway, I am making headway on the jsMath and can confirm the "mssing
> >> keys" phenomenon. My test of "without installed TeX fonts" was flawed,
> >> but that is sorted out now. I am actually developing now without TeX
> >> fonts installed. Next release later today will work /unless/ TeX fonts
> >> are installed (but I think I can make it work both ways with a quick
> >> hack, deeper fix in a day or seven).
>
> > Or seventy, by which time qooxdoo will have released a new version to
> > "support" the latest browsers and all of your patches will have to be
> > redone.
>
> Are you hoping it is seventy, or hoping I get it sorted out tonight?
I really couldn't care less. Have I not mentioned that? I only
comment on your serialized career suicide note to caution others.
>
>
>
> > You are on a treadmill, Kenny. You really should learn HTML, CSS and
> > JS before trying to write a Web application. Basically, you are
> > trying to do algebra before you've learned basic arithmetic. ;)
>
> One thing you do not seem to be coming up to speed on as quickly as I
> thought you might is that I understand fully the trade-offs one
> undertakes when adopting a library such that (a) in most cases one
> indeed does not want to adopt a library but (b) in exceptional cases
> (such as qooxdoo and jsMath) the added value of the library hugely
> exceeds the effort that will be needed to get along with them.
Considering how confused the qooxdoo developers are about basic
keyboard handling, it's hard to see their wares as anything
approaching exceptional.
>
> As a corollary, you seem unaware that I am Mr. NIH, not as a bug, but as
> a feature.
Translation?
> And I am using qooxdoo and jsMath ecstatically over how fast
> I have brought a wysiwyg math editor to the web.
You are hopelessly deluded.
>
> Is your brain nothing but one great honking anti-library neuron?
We've been over that. Even a child could understand that eschewing
obviously bad libraries does not indicate any sort of general "anti-
library" sentiment.
Kenneth Tilton
> On Jul 31, 6:00 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you read this group or just post?
Just post. This NG is not really up to snuff, and deals mostly with
stuff I let qooxdoo worry about.
> I've long since tamed the
> keyboard (and yes, that includes Opera).
Cool, I'll check out your code.
> But I don't write add-ons
> for qooxdoo.
You might recall qooxdoo allows one to embed raw Html/js.
>> I waded thru more than a little qooxdoo code to determine they had left
>> the model property off the RadioGroupBox widget.
>
> That's too bad.
>
>> Doing so was not the
>> end of the world. Sorry. k
>>
>
> Nothing is the end of world, is it? But one problem after another
> indicates you would have been better off without qooxdoo.
No, "one problem after another" was jQuery, Dojo, and YUI and the code
was impossible to follow. qooxdoo actually started off with a problem
(over busy datagrid (does My Library have a datagrid?)) which was
insanely easy to fix and has only occasionally had issues while bringing
a rather hefty desktop application to the Web:
kt
Kenneth Tilton
> On Jul 31, 6:16 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Opera is the most broken browser concerning keyboard events.
>
> What does that mean? It can't handle typing "g=mc2=="? I assure you
> it can.
The question is what key event application is made available to the
client in the general case. I'll check it out now that I have the thing
somewhat gracefully coping whether or not TeX fonts are installed.
>
> You can't do round-trips on every key event. As you've been told
> repeatedly, it's pure lunacy (and doomed to fail).
...and working:
Go figure. By the way, I have not even made an effort yet to optimize
the round-trips, the editor is so responsive.
You seem unable to absorb the fact that this is an Algebra tutoring
platform, not a type-touching trainer. But I am happy to remind you as
needed.
>> As a corollary, you seem unaware that I am Mr. NIH, not as a bug, but as
>> a feature.
>
> Translation?
Generally you are right: libraries are more trouble than they are worth.
qooxdoo and jsMath are clear exceptions.
>
>> And I am using qooxdoo and jsMath ecstatically over how fast
>> I have brought a wysiwyg math editor to the web.
>
> You are hopelessly deluded.
>
>> Is your brain nothing but one great honking anti-library neuron?
>
> We've been over that. Even a child could understand that eschewing
> obviously bad libraries does not indicate any sort of general "anti-
> library" sentiment.
I guess not since you are pushing a competitor library /and/ selling
your services as a qooxdoo developer.
Kenneth Tilton
Yeah, it's going through the roof:
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
2.1% and dropping from a high of 2.4 in December, 2008. Be still my
beating heart. Glad I checked before seeing if I could make it work.
kt
David Mark
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 31, 6:00 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Do you read this group or just post?
>
> Just post. This NG is not really up to snuff, and deals mostly with
> stuff I let qooxdoo worry about.
Up to snuff? You are letting qooxdoo "worry" about something that
they are clearly unable to deal with when the answers are right under
your nose here.
>
> > I've long since tamed the
> > keyboard (and yes, that includes Opera).
>
> Cool, I'll check out your code.
Mind the copyright. Only the My Library add-on is licensed. But as
usual, I'm sure large tracts of it will eventually make its way into
projects like qooxdoo, Dojo, jQuery, etc. Why people want to wait
years for such transformations is beyond me.
>
> > But I don't write add-ons
> > for qooxdoo.
>
> You might recall qooxdoo allows one to embed raw Html/js.
You really are hypnotized. Qooxdoo "allows" you to use HTML/JS in a
browser in the same way that jQuery "allows" QSA and event delegation.
>
> >> I waded thru more than a little qooxdoo code to determine they had left
> >> the model property off the RadioGroupBox widget.
>
> > That's too bad.
>
> >> Doing so was not the
> >> end of the world. Sorry. k
>
> > Nothing is the end of world, is it? But one problem after another
> > indicates you would have been better off without qooxdoo.
>
> No, "one problem after another" was jQuery, Dojo, and YUI and the code
> was impossible to follow.
The Qooxdoo project is obviously of a similarly incompetent nature.
> qooxdoo actually started off with a problem
> (over busy datagrid (does My Library have a datagrid?)) which was
> insanely easy to fix and has only occasionally had issues while bringing
> a rather hefty desktop application to the Web:
As for "datagrid", read this thread:-
http://groups.google.com/group/my-library-general-discussion/browse_thread/thread/4636cecd90eab742
Search for "grid" if you have a short attention span.
David Mark
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 31, 6:16 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Opera is the most broken browser concerning keyboard events.
>
> > What does that mean? It can't handle typing "g=mc2=="? I assure you
> > it can.
>
> The question is what key event application is made available to the
> client in the general case.
No, the question is how the qooxdoo developers could be so ignorant
about such a basic and critical interface.
> I'll check it out now that I have the thing
> somewhat gracefully coping whether or not TeX fonts are installed.
ISTM you spend a lot of time checking things out that were supposed to
be handled automatically by the qooxdoo scripts. What does that tell
you?
>
>
>
> > You can't do round-trips on every key event. As you've been told
> > repeatedly, it's pure lunacy (and doomed to fail).
>
> ...and working:
>
> http://teamalgebra.com/
As many have told you, it's working about as well as could be expected
(abominably). Just because it appears to be snappy to you doesn't
mean it is to the rest of the world. ;)
>
> Go figure. By the way, I have not even made an effort yet to optimize
> the round-trips, the editor is so responsive.
See above.
>
> You seem unable to absorb the fact that this is an Algebra tutoring
> platform, not a type-touching trainer. But I am happy to remind you as
> needed.
You seem unable to absorb anything. Your 9 round-the-clock
"professional engineers" can't even handle keyboard input in Opera;
instead, they gave up years ago. What does that tell you?
>
> >> As a corollary, you seem unaware that I am Mr. NIH, not as a bug, but as
> >> a feature.
>
> > Translation?
>
> Generally you are right: libraries are more trouble than they are worth.
> qooxdoo and jsMath are clear exceptions.
Only in your head.
>
>
>
> >> And I am using qooxdoo and jsMath ecstatically over how fast
> >> I have brought a wysiwyg math editor to the web.
>
> > You are hopelessly deluded.
>
> >> Is your brain nothing but one great honking anti-library neuron?
>
> > We've been over that. Even a child could understand that eschewing
> > obviously bad libraries does not indicate any sort of general "anti-
> > library" sentiment.
>
> I guess not since you are pushing a competitor library /and/ selling
> your services as a qooxdoo developer.
I am not "pushing" a competitor. Who competes for freebie downloads?
I am pushing the fact that I've got the only successful game in town
when it comes to comprehensive GP libraries. It's not even a horse
race.
And I am not a qooxdoo developer, nor have I ever mentioned anything
about such services.
RobG
The comment was about *Europe*, where Opera has about 5%[1] use. Given
that is nearly the same number of people who are left-handed, do you
propose telling them to go away too?
Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons don't
appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss. And it still takes around
30 seconds to load over ADSL 2 that can achieve 3Mbs.
Your back-end coding for the algebra part might be great, but the UI
sucks.
1. <URL: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-eu-monthly-200908-201007 >
--
Rob
David Mark
We've been over that a million times. Such stats rarely reflect
reality for reasons that should be obvious. UA strings are often
indistinguishable from each other. Users and software can change the
UA string. And ever heard of proxy servers? Yes, they've been known
to supply their own UA string from all users.
>
> 2.1% and dropping from a high of 2.4 in December, 2008.
Call it 2%. You mentioned you were once a math teacher. What is 2%
of browsers in use? This isn't high school, Kenny; 98% is not an A+.
And it's not like qooxdoo comes anywhere near 98% anyway. Hard to pin
it down due to the browser sniffing, but you can bet that any current
build's score will decline over time as browsers change and new
browsers are introduced.
I'm sure you subscribe to the notion that you will just download a new
qooxdoo every few months, but we've been over that too. For one,
you've been patching the thing, so upgrading will be a problem. For
two, qooxdoo will add new features that you don't necessarily need and
that might well screw up the features you do need. And last but not
least, these browser sniffing scripts invariably break the last batch
of browsers when they twiddle with their "logic" to "support" newer
ones.
And the point is that you could have easily avoided all of this by
just listening. I told you a long ways back that qooxdoo was a non-
starter.
> Be still my
> beating heart. Glad I checked before seeing if I could make it work.
>
Don't believe everything you see on the tube. ;)
Kenneth Tilton
Got it:
> And, there will never be a grid control. Think about commercial
> desktop software and operating systems. How much of it uses grids?
> Spreadsheets and database managers (e.g. MS Access) are about it.
Most business applications provide an interface to a database. My first
app was a datamining app and DB browser, I used nothing but grids and
treeviews.
I understand, tho: it's a lot of work. qooxdoo's has a kazillion
features, including resizable and relocatable columns, and even a little
widget that lets the user hide/show columns. Getting a bit frilly there,
but my client happened also to ask for it.
Kenneth Tilton
5%? If they need help with Algebra, they can fire up FireFox.
> Given
> that is nearly the same number of people who are left-handed, do you
> propose telling them to go away too?
Love the logic, Rob! Down with the 5%ers!
>
> Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons don't
> appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss.
Works for me in Safari on Windows* and the Mac. And iCab on the Mac and
Chrome on Ubuntu.
kt
* Except two of the math keypad characters are out of place. That's a
jsMath issue I have addressed to date only with hard-coded kludges.
Looks like I need another.
David Mark
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Aug 1, 1:10 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > As for "datagrid", read this thread:-
>
>
> > Search for "grid" if you have a short attention span.
>
> Got it:
I don't think you do.
>
> > And, there will never be a grid control. Think about commercial
> > desktop software and operating systems. How much of it uses grids?
> > Spreadsheets and database managers (e.g. MS Access) are about it.
>
> Most business applications provide an interface to a database. My first
> app was a datamining app and DB browser, I used nothing but grids and
> treeviews.
Most business applications use some sort of a database. That doesn't
mean they need to look like a database manager (e.g. MS Access).
Those sorts of quickie grid apps are typically the result of
inexperienced and/or unimaginative designers. I spent a decade
writing DB front-ends and never once used a grid. ;)
>
> I understand, tho: it's a lot of work. qooxdoo's has a kazillion
> features, including resizable and relocatable columns, and even a little
> widget that lets the user hide/show columns.
You don't understand anything. That's all piffle. And I did a
massive amount of work on Dojo's execrable grid. They are all the
same basic BS.
> Getting a bit frilly there,
> but my client happened also to ask for it.
What client?
Kenneth Tilton
No, this is business school and when one is reaching 98% of the market
the cost of reaching another 2% (who is free to use FireFox if they need
help with Algebra and if they won't do that they prolly aren't buyers
anyway) prolly cannot be justified, not as long as their are features to
add that would be more effective at growing share.
> And it's not like qooxdoo comes anywhere near 98% anyway. Hard to pin
> it down due to the browser sniffing, but you can bet that any current
> build's score will decline over time as browsers change and new
> browsers are introduced.
>
> I'm sure you subscribe to the notion that you will just download a new
> qooxdoo every few months, but we've been over that too. For one,
> you've been patching the thing,...
Once, which they added to qooxdoo about an hour after I did cuz it was a
no-brainer.
> so upgrading will be a problem. For
> two, qooxdoo will add new features that you don't necessarily need and
> that might well screw up the features you do need. And last but not
> least, these browser sniffing scripts invariably break the last batch
> of browsers when they twiddle with their "logic" to "support" newer
> ones.
Thanks for the happy reminder that I am not doing a desktop app and
dealing with Windows XP, Windows Vista, and Windows 7 any more with a
port to the Mac an open item. Whew!
>
> And the point is that you could have easily avoided all of this by
> just listening. I told you a long ways back that qooxdoo was a non-
> starter.
IIRC, all you came up with was some panel not scrolling when you
stress-tested it by shrinking it beyond reason. And it did not scroll
because I did not add one line of code (since added):
(vpage ()(:label "Typing Lessons") <-- makes a tab in a tab control
(scroller (:add '(:flex 1)) <-- wraps it in a scroller
(math-paper-examples self)))
btw, this thread is supposed to be about qooxlisp and now it is: qooxdoo
developers using raw JS write a helluva a lot more code than that, and
it is all boilerplate. Part of the win here is the fact that I created
an engine to automate the assembly of qooxdoo ui hierarchies, but
another win is the legendary Lisp macro.
I keep giving qooxdoo the credit for bringing this thing to fruition so
quickly, but qooxlisp gets as much credit.
David Mark
So you see 95% as a solid A? Why not just admit that you hitched your
wagon to a broken down nag?
>
> > Given
> > that is nearly the same number of people who are left-handed, do you
> > propose telling them to go away too?
>
> Love the logic, Rob! Down with the 5%ers!
But you didn't get the comparison. The basic gist is that 5% is a
significant percentage of the population.
>
>
>
> > Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons don't
> > appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss.
>
> Works for me in Safari on Windows* and the Mac. And iCab on the Mac and
> Chrome on Ubuntu.
You are falling into the trap of assuming that everyone has the
identical setup. And you didn't even ask (or specify) the versions of
those browsers.
As with most aspiring Web app developers, you are in way over your
head (and sinking fast).
rf
"David Mark" <dmark....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:112f3013-ecd8-4752...@p11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Love the logic, Rob! Down with the 5%ers!
> But you didn't get the comparison. The basic gist is that 5% is a
> significant percentage of the population.
Consider that 5% is about the percentage of the worlds population who live
in the U S of A :-)
RobG
Here's some more 5%ers for you: touch devices. Your site is completely
useless, it doesn't recognise touches in the editable areas, and even
if it did, likely the keyboard won't appear because the device doesn't
see it as an editable area.
The scroll bars don't work, nor does the usual two-finger scroll in
scrolling divs, so if content requires scrolling, it can't be
accessed.
Pressing the blue buttons does nothing, no hints about what keys to
press as is indicated by the text. There are likely other issues.
No doubt you'll lament that Qooxdoo doesn't support touch devices yet,
but again had you used simple HTML for UI components instead of those
supplied by Qooxdoo likely it wouldn't have been an issue.
In contrast, other complex sites I use (such as banking and share
trading) work just fine on iPhone and iPad, and they've done nothing
special to support them, probably because they stayed with basic
functionality and HTML enhanced by script where suitable. They didn't
try to build the entire interface using script.
I wonder how your site goes on Android touch devices?
> > Given
> > that is nearly the same number of people who are left-handed, do you
> > propose telling them to go away too?
>
> Love the logic, Rob! Down with the 5%ers!
Indeed. It's your logic to dismiss groups that represent less than a
certain percentage of potential users, not mine. Also note that it is
your choice of development platform that excludes them (and many
others), not any technical deficiencies in their choice of user agent.
> > Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons don't
> > appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss.
>
> Works for me in Safari on Windows* and the Mac. And iCab on the Mac and
> Chrome on Ubuntu.
I'll post some links to screen shots later.
--
Rob
David Mark
Much later, please. After the children have gone to bed. I'm
assuming they are pretty gruesome.
Kenneth Tilton
> But you didn't get the comparison. The basic gist is that 5% is a
> significant percentage of the population.
Think business, not coverage. Also cost/benefit. er, and retail.
>
>>
>>
>>> Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons don't
>>> appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss.
>> Works for me in Safari on Windows* and the Mac. And iCab on the Mac and
>> Chrome on Ubuntu.
>
> You are falling into the trap of assuming that everyone has the
> identical setup.
Nope, I was just saying, it works for me. A response of the same
thoroughness and quality and worth as the report.
> And you didn't even ask (or specify) the versions of
> those browsers.
Just cutting my losses: setup info is not offered up front in this
genius NG by people that know better so I have to think they are not
meant as serious reports.
Reminds me of the guy who reported a bug in the Algebra engine I could
not reproduce and who just disappeared when his report was questioned.
It would be an impressive bug given that the Algebra engine uses
numerical methods to sanity check its symbolic work, so it almost looks
like a deliberate mis-report. Taking some of you with a grain of salt
these days.
>
> As with most aspiring Web app developers, you are in way over your
> head (and sinking fast).
glub-glub.
kt
markha...@gmail.com
IE4, and the people with Javascript turned off, and the people that
don't have internet.
Kenny, they're significant. Don't deny them.
David Mark
wrote:
> ...and don't forget about the people using Lynx,
People using Lynx (and other text browsers) include blind people and
AIUI some navy personnel.
> and the people using
> IE4,
That's the typical, outlandish non-argument spewed by people ignorant
of the fact that many of these "widget libraries" barely work in a
handful of the *very latest* browsers.
> and the people with Javascript turned off,
Lots of those (some have no choice). It's perfectly ridiculous to
design a Website to display a blank (white screen of death) to those
people. And, of course, several of the qooxdoo demos (presumably the
best things they've made) display such results in the latest versions
of their "supported" browsers with scripting turned *on*. At various
times, Kenny's application has done that too.
> and the people that
> don't have internet.
More like the people who don't have high-speed connections. Lots of
those too and they can't be expected to wait 3-4 minutes for a page to
load.
>
> Kenny, they're significant. Don't deny them.
The joke is on you.
Richard Cornford
> David Mark wrote:
<snip>
>>>> Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons
>>>> don't appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss.
>
>>> Works for me in Safari on Windows* and the Mac. And iCab on
>>> the Mac and Chrome on Ubuntu.
>
>> You are falling into the trap of assuming that everyone has
>> the identical setup.
>
> Nope, I was just saying, it works for me. A response of the
> same thoroughness and quality and worth as the report.
>
>> And you didn't even ask (or specify) the versions of
>> those browsers.
>
> Just cutting my losses: setup info is not offered up front
> in this genius NG by people that know better so I have to
> think they are not meant as serious reports.
You appear to be labouring under a misconception that the comments you
have been receiving represent bug or error reports. They are not;
instead they are nothing but a general announcement of the results of
assessing the quality of the 'web application' that you have been
oscillating between calling finished and a train wreck. The initial
assessment of a web application is fairly simple; load it into some
random (but usually fairly common/popular) web browser and see if
operates without script errors, is useable (in the broadest sense) and
(ultimately) does what it is asserted to do. The feedback from such an
assessment might be no more than pointing out the fact that it errors
at some point (as it loads in your case), that it is too slow to be
useable or that the UI does not function in some way in a particular
browser.
This sort of response is reasonable in the face of assertions such as
that qooxdoo allows an individual to crate a web application in X
weeks of work, because if the 'application' is actually a train wreck
when tired, how long it took to create that train wreck is of not
significance at all (because any fool can rapidly create a train
wreck, with or without qooxdoo). What an independent observer,
interested in qooxdoo is interested in is how long it takes to create
the finished application, where an early symptom of being 'finished'
would be not providing grounds for criticism following relatively
superficial testing.
Making a proper bug report would imply a desire to help you, and given
your attitude and behaviour in this group over the last year or so I
doubt that there are many left who would consider it worth their
effort to try to help you. On the other hand, even without any desire
to help you there is still the reoccurring warning that what you see
from wherever it you observe from does not correspond with what others
are seeing from wherever they are observing from. It suggests that
chanting "works for me" is not the rout to what independent observers
are going to agree is 'finished'.
Richard.
David Mark
> David Mark wrote:
> > But you didn't get the comparison. The basic gist is that 5% is a
> > significant percentage of the population.
>
> Think business, not coverage. Also cost/benefit. er, and retail.
As I've told you before, there is no extra cost associated with doing
things right. If anything, it's much cheaper. Of course, if you have
no idea what you are doing, you will fail either way.
>
>
>
> >>> Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons don't
> >>> appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss.
> >> Works for me in Safari on Windows* and the Mac. And iCab on the Mac and
> >> Chrome on Ubuntu.
>
> > You are falling into the trap of assuming that everyone has the
> > identical setup.
>
> Nope, I was just saying, it works for me.
You have a long history of saying that. It's meaningless when reports
are coming in from all corners saying your application is the white
screen of death or takes ten minutes to load or fails to handle
keystrokes properly.
> A response of the same
> thoroughness and quality and worth as the report.
People report bugs to you because you are the author. Your dubious
non-bug reports are a waste of time.
>
> > And you didn't even ask (or specify) the versions of
> > those browsers.
>
> Just cutting my losses: setup info is not offered up front in this
> genius NG by people that know better so I have to think they are not
> meant as serious reports.
What the hell are you talking about?
>
> Reminds me of the guy who reported a bug in the Algebra engine I could
> not reproduce and who just disappeared when his report was questioned.
Likely from lack of interest or distaste for your constant denials.
> It would be an impressive bug given that the Algebra engine uses
> numerical methods to sanity check its symbolic work, so it almost looks
> like a deliberate mis-report.
You are paranoid (or trying to talk yourself into something). Why
would so many people around the globe misreport bugs to you? It
defies imagination.
> Taking some of you with a grain of salt
> these days.
Some of who?
>
>
>
> > As with most aspiring Web app developers, you are in way over your
> > head (and sinking fast).
>
> glub-glub.
>
When you hit bottom, realize that if you had spent more time learning
and less time whining about evil bug reporters...
markha...@gmail.com
> The joke is on you.
No, the joke is you letting Kenny getting your panties in a bunch.
RobG
> On Aug 2, 10:35 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > RobG wrote:
> > > Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons don't
> > > appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss.
>
> > Works for me in Safari on Windows* and the Mac. And iCab on the Mac and
> > Chrome on Ubuntu.
How do you replicate the Windows delete key on a Mac laptop? The Mac
delete key is equivalent (more or less) to the Windows backspace key,
fn+delete is the equivalent of the delete key.
> I'll post some links to screen shots later.
It seems some of those issues have been fixed since Saturday when I
last looked. It would be good if the typing tutor displayed the
expected result.
There are still issues, entering:
1 < x < 5
results in "51" being displayed.
Entering:
1<x>5
results in:
1>x^5
Once an equality operator has been entered using the blue buttons,
trying to enter another results in the first one being changed.
In lesson 7, enter the characters as requested. Then enter ">", it
changes the equality operator several characters to the left, then
press "<". The last 4 characters disappear.
The only way to remove brackets seems to be to delete their entire
content.
The UI is slowly getting better, but it seems to have been a very
long, slow process.
Bumping up font sizes messes up the UI - it seems to be based on a
fixed layout and does't take account of font size.
The UI doesn't handle left-right scroll (tilt wheel mouse or swipe on
a touch pad) when horizontal scroll bars are displayed.
The above occurs in Safari 5 on Mac OS and IE 6 on Windows.
--
Rob
David Mark
wrote:
> > The joke is on you.
>
> No, the joke is you letting Kenny getting your panties in a bunch.
Now the joke *is* you. :)
And I couldn't care less what Kenny does. However, there are
thousands of other beginners reading his (and now your) ravings.
Somebody has to set the record straight.
markha...@gmail.com
You're out to set the record straight for "the beginners". Nice one.
David Mark
wrote:
Yes. Like those naive enough to dismiss text browsers and agents with
"scripting turned off".
You're welcome. :)
Kenneth Tilton
I laugh in the face of your desperate attempt to get mileage out of my
use of the phrase "train wreck".
btw, I am not looking for help from anyone, I am just sharing news of a
good way to develop web apps: qooxdoo and qooxlisp:
http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/qooxlisp/
The latter is a good way for folks to find out why I have been ranting
about Cells for going on 15 years.
As for the reports, if someone is going to say "X does not work" I'll
check it and if it works for me all I can say absent more compleat info
is "X works for me on these stacks".
finally, my attitude is not the problem. the problem is the attitude of
a vocal few library hating Lord of the Flies wannabes that think they
own this NG. They do keep me in shape, however.
:)
David Mark
Laughter is the best medicine.
>
> btw, I am not looking for help from anyone, I am just sharing news of a
> good way to develop web apps: qooxdoo and qooxlisp:
>
> http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/qooxlisp/
Which has been demonstrated to be complete rubbish.
>
> The latter is a good way for folks to find out why I have been ranting
> about Cells for going on 15 years.
What folks in here know anything about your 15-year rant? Ah, perhaps
you mean that other group. Why don't you leave this one out of it?
>
> As for the reports, if someone is going to say "X does not work" I'll
> check it and if it works for me all I can say absent more compleat info
> is "X works for me on these stacks".
That's because, absent any sort of experience or ability in this
field, you can only observe and shrug.
>
> finally, my attitude is not the problem.
It most assuredly is.
> the problem is the attitude of
> a vocal few library hating Lord of the Flies wannabes that think they
> own this NG.
Who would want to be a book?
> They do keep me in shape, however.
>
Training to be a loser?
Kenneth Tilton
> RobG <rg...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 2, 12:25�pm, RobG <rg...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> > On Aug 2, 10:35 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > RobG wrote:
>> [...]
>> > > > Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons don't
>> > > > appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss.
>> >
>> > > Works for me in Safari on Windows* and the Mac. And iCab on the
>> Mac and
>> > > Chrome on Ubuntu.
>>
>> How do you replicate the Windows delete key on a Mac laptop? The Mac
>> delete key is equivalent (more or less) to the Windows backspace key,
>> fn+delete is the equivalent of the delete key.
A harder problem is interpreting the delete behavior in the context of
wysiwyg math. Not that I have not done it in prior versions of the
editor, just that it would be another sizable wodge of programming.
In the first* editor I did I went crazy and did /everything/ including
drag-select, shift-click select, and then of course cut and paste. I
spent hundreds of hours on that, rather stupidly I think now. Kids I am
sure do nothing but type and hit backspace as needed from the end to fix
things. I will over time work fancier editing back in, but there is just
little ol' me over here (and no money) so I am following the business
approach described here:
http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
Mr. Cornford is now free to chant "worse is better" in any follow-up.
:)
kt
* I lied. It was prolly the second. I have written five and am trying to
talk myself out of a sixth.
Kenneth Tilton
Why does everyone think I have unlimited resources to achieve 100%
coverage of left-handed blind people not using computers on the initial
release?
Or is it the consensus that because I do not do something in the initial
release I will never do it (and hate blind people)?
You folks have the logical powers of... of... oh, right, a lynch mob.
sheesh. You are just lucky I have to wait five minutes to SCP over a new
release once in a while or you'd never see me around here. :)
The goal is to become profitable before I go bankrupt. Methinks I can do
that with 95% of the sighted right-handed people. If I cannot, the other
5% won't make ... oh, sorry, there I go again with the logic.
Ah, perfect. The copy is done. I added bookmark and back/forward tab
support using the simple qooxdoo hooks:
http://qooxdoo.org/documentation/1.1/back-button_and_bookmark_support
About twenty lines of code, thank you very much... ah, looks like I have
to write five more to make this work: http://teamalgebra.com/#TRAINING
kt
markha...@gmail.com
> "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
> Macworld
Kenny, out of all people, I would have thought you would've recognized
the sarcasm.
Cue David Mark to say in a Jocelyn Elders voice, "think of the
cheeeeeldren with Opera"
Kenneth Tilton
> On Aug 2, 11:39 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The latter is a good way for folks to find out why I have been ranting
>> about Cells for going on 15 years.
>
> What folks in here know anything about your 15-year rant? Ah, perhaps
> you mean that other group. Why don't you leave this one out of it?
Because it is the most important advance in software development ever?
Dataflow (or pick your favorite alias) should have been there in the
beginning had we thought through what we were doing with computers. Now
many of us are catching up, in Lisp, Python, C++, Scheme, and even...
well, not sure where the dataflow lies in this bad boy:
http://www.openlaszlo.org/ I see a reference there to "Declarative LZX
language", I think that's it.
Read more here on the general idea:
http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/cells/
Kenneth Tilton
Actually, that was my first parse!
"People without the Internet" being my cue.
But then I remembered WebKit was available as a library to bring RIAs to
the desktop.... doh!
:)
kt
ps: this should work now: http://teamalgebra.com/#TRAINING
--
Michael Haufe ("TNO")
> "People without the Internet" being my cue.
>
> But then I remembered WebKit was available as a library to bring RIAs to
> the desktop.... doh!
I don't think "library" would be the proper term here. Also, don't
overlook the fact that anyone with IE5+ also has support for HTML
Applications and then there is Mozilla's XUL...
markha...@gmail.com
I guess these Europeans are still on 300 baud Hayes or something,
because it loads up in a couple seconds for me.
RobG
> In article
> <fadb2721-6291-429e-93b9-2465902eb...@o7g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> RobG <rg...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
[...]
> > How do you replicate the Windows delete key on a Mac laptop? The Mac
> > delete key is equivalent (more or less) to the Windows backspace key,
> > fn+delete is the equivalent of the delete key.
>
> as standard keys (i.e. no fn required).
On your Mac *laptop*?
--
Rob
Kenneth Tilton
>> kt
>>
>> ps: this should work now:http://teamalgebra.com/#TRAINING
>>
>
> I guess these Europeans are still on 300 baud Hayes or something,
> because it loads up in a couple seconds for me.
Europeans... can you believe we bailed them out in WW II only to be
treated like this? <sigh>
I try to keep an open mind. Sometimes I see the thing load incredibly
slowly, which gets cured by resetting my browser. I suspect AllegroServe
is somehow getting confused and then doing a multi-second something on
each request.
Curren plan for world domination:
1. make the functionality and UI good enough to offer with a straight face.
2. offer it selectively to build the load gradually to find the limits
on the current AWS instance.
3. react intelligently to what is learned in #2, either by tuning the
app or (if the app seems OK) using a different AWS instance or just
getting more instances into play.
4. announce here that I am committing suicide because qooxdoo let me
down. It won't be true, but it will give Mr. Mark a moment of satisfaction.
kt
--
Ry Nohryb
> In article <4C5772E1.4040...@gmail.com>,
> Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > MarkHanif...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> kt
>
> > >> ps: this should work now:http://teamalgebra.com/#TRAINING
>
> > > I guess these Europeans are still on 300 baud Hayes or something,
> > > because it loads up in a couple seconds for me.
>
> > Europeans... can you believe we bailed them out in WW II only to be
> > treated like this? <sigh>
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission
LOL. It's just a bu$ine$$. And... "We bailed them out" ? We had to
manage for the evil to help us. Neither you, nor the brits nor the
french. Good. Thanks. <sigh>
--
Jorge.
williamc
> Curren plan for world domination:
>
> 1. make the functionality and UI good enough to offer with a straight face.
>
> 2. offer it selectively to build the load gradually to find the limits
> on the current AWS instance.
>
> 3. react intelligently to what is learned in #2, either by tuning the
> app or (if the app seems OK) using a different AWS instance or just
> getting more instances into play.
>
> 4. announce here that I am committing suicide because qooxdoo let me
> down. It won't be true, but it will give Mr. Mark a moment of satisfaction.
>
> kt
>
Running Win XP in FF 3.6.8 and Chrome 5, I still see the problem with
the top of some of your text being cut off.
screen shot at http://williamc.com/temp/algebra/tcenter.gif
--williamc
Kenneth Tilton
Yes, that is unresolved. It comes and goes for me on all stacks.
Resetting Safari clears it, but that might just be because I also have
to reload the session. But reloading the session does not always do it.
Could be a random thing.
I used to think it was rebuilding my code from scratch (Lisp is a little
non-deterministic based on how one builds), but (a) I was suspicious of
that based on the code and (b) I discovered /sometimes/ the other
methods cleared the problem.
I have now added code to (a) use the jsMath \bbox extension to have
jsMath generate summary bounds; (b) altered the generated JS to send
back the generated HTML; and (c) pulled in net.aserve.parser so I can
parse the HTML into Lisp data structures. Sadly it does not descend into
the style strings, but that should not be too hard to add. Talk about
round trips! Anyway, when it happens again I'll be able to see what is
different.
If it does not happen again, (a) I have a clue and (b) I'll back out the
bbox and figure out the summary bounds myself and see what is going on.
>
> screen shot at http://williamc.com/temp/algebra/tcenter.gif
>
>
Thx for the trouble.
C.R. Kirkwood-Watts
| Weird radio group behavior when one used a radio item that was a
| complex widget itself. Dig dig dig... aha! I had noticed they had
| cocked things up by not letting the complex item have a "model"
| property, and guess where the problem originated?
Why do you insist on posting these updates (or whatever they are) to
c.l.lisp (or c.l.javascript for that matter)? Just put them on your
blog and folks who are interested will find them via Google.
Alternatively, isn't there a qooxdoo mailing list or similar where you
could place your meanderings?
Chris.
williamc
> williamc wrote:
>> Running Win XP in FF 3.6.8 and Chrome 5, I still see the problem with
>> the top of some of your text being cut off.
> Yes, that is unresolved. It comes and goes for me on all stacks.
> Resetting Safari clears it, but that might just be because I also have
> to reload the session. But reloading the session does not always do it.
> Could be a random thing.
>
> I used to think it was rebuilding my code from scratch (Lisp is a little
> non-deterministic based on how one builds), but (a) I was suspicious of
> that based on the code and (b) I discovered /sometimes/ the other
> methods cleared the problem.
>
> I have now added code to (a) use the jsMath \bbox extension to have
> jsMath generate summary bounds; (b) altered the generated JS to send
> back the generated HTML; and (c) pulled in net.aserve.parser so I can
> parse the HTML into Lisp data structures. Sadly it does not descend into
> the style strings, but that should not be too hard to add. Talk about
> round trips! Anyway, when it happens again I'll be able to see what is
> different.
>
> If it does not happen again, (a) I have a clue and (b) I'll back out the
> bbox and figure out the summary bounds myself and see what is going on.
>
>>
>> screen shot at http://williamc.com/temp/algebra/tcenter.gif
>>
>>
>
> Thx for the trouble.
>
> kt
>
Hmmm. The problem also manifested on the typing tutor tab (I was doing
some quick usability feedback, but didn't finish), so I'm assuming it's
everywhere until it goes away - which it did. I don't recall doing a
browser refresh per se. Just all of a sudden when I went into the edit
box the text looked OK.
--williamc
Kenneth Tilton
> __ Kenneth Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> _____
> | Weird radio group behavior when one used a radio item that was a
> | complex widget itself. Dig dig dig... aha! I had noticed they had
> | cocked things up by not letting the complex item have a "model"
> | property, and guess where the problem originated?
>
> Why do you insist on posting these updates (or whatever they are) to
> c.l.lisp (or c.l.javascript for that matter)? Just put them on your
> blog and folks who are interested will find them via Google.
I'll do what you tell me to do when you do what I am over here wishing
you would do.
John G Harris
wrote:
<snip>
>Europeans... can you believe we bailed them out in WW II only to be
>treated like this? <sigh>
<snip>
U-boats were sinking US naval ships, then Germany declared war on the
USA. What was the USA to do? If it had surrendered and handed over the
Atlantic navy to Germany and the Pacific navy to Japan the president
would have been assassinated long before he could be tried for high
treason.
John
--
John Harris