[NETBEANS] [CENSORSHIP] [Fwd: Returned post for nbusers@netbeans.org]
Ilias Lazaridis
the NetBeans Project.
Content Summary of Censored Message:
"The NetBeans Open Source Lie" [NetBeans IDE is _not_ Open Source].
My message was an reply to this message:
JAXP & other licenses
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=872191&listName=nbusers
The full initial thread:
[EVALUATION] - E11 - Sun Microsystems Board of Directors
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=871387&listName=nbusers
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nntp access:
news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.ide.netbeans.user
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The foundation for the censorship was _personally_ given by the Sun
Microsystems Employee and NetBeans Board Member Tim Boudreau.
He _personally_ set the public nbuser forum on 'moderation', without any
authority on doing so:
NbUsers is now on full moderation
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=872266&listName=nbusers
Most possibly, he censors my messages now personally.
I cannot evaluate this - the process is intransparent.
-
Possibly some members of the community have complained about the
moderation/censorship.
This complaints are most possibly censored too.
I cannot evaluate this - the process is intransparent.
-
Covering censorship with the tenor of moderation is the action of an
coward.
Once more Sun Microsystems employees show their lack of courage and
integrity.
This incident is a shame for the whole Java community.
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Silence is Accepting.
Act Against Censorship on Java Forums!
.
Ilias Lazaridis
netbeans community member has twisted publically some facts.
Congrats to Ilias Lazaridis: Mission Accomplished
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=872061&listName=nbusers
My reply-message tries to counter the false accusations against my person.
This message was *censored* by Tim Boudreau (Sun Microsystems).
-
[CENSORED_MESSAGE]
Dobson Paul L Contr OO-ALC/LGFBR wrote:
> I'm getting a little discouraged. I subscribed to this list in hopes
> of getting and providing useful information regarding the use of
> NetBeans. All I have found is relentless back and forth bashing
> between Ilias Lazaridis and the rest of the group. If you want Ilias
> Lazaridis to go away, either ban him or ignore him. Stop feeding his
> fire.
"ban him"
this would mean: censorship.
-
"ignore him"
"Stop feeding his fire"
nice suggestions.
But why do you give such an worse example?
You've opened a _new_ thread, with my name in its subject!
> It seems to me Ilias Lazaridis has accomplished his purpose of
> disrupting NetBeans.
"purpose of disrupting NetBeans"
=> false [My purpose is to evaluate NetBeans]
I do this whilst keeping the very simple rules of the NetBeans.org System.
> He has managed to turn almost all messages on this mailing list into
> ones about as valuable as what I find in my junk mail folder.
"almost all messages"
This is an exaggeration.
My messages create only a few off-topic messages (inlcuding yours).
> I am on the verge of giving up the forum because I don't have time to
> sort through the dozen or so junk messages to find real information
> on NetBeans.
a) My threads contain real information on NetBeans.
b) You can setup a simple filter on my threads.
You've possibly noted, that I write only in my threads.
Additionally I write sometimes(!) in foreign threads which subject my
person [like this thread here].
> I'm all for free speech. At the same time, it would be nice to once
> again see this mailing list be a place to give and receive help
> regarding NetBeans. Maybe we should preserve the intent on nbusers
> and create a new list for people like Ilias Lazaridis called
> nbbashers :)
The first action would be to redirect your "Congrats"-thread here to
this group.
-
I've followed the rules of the netbeans system.
My threads are valid within nbusers.
> This will give him a place to vent while preventing him from wasting
> my time as well as the time of the rest of the group who may have
> real work to accomplish using NetBeans.
You waste your time yourself.
In the same time you wrote this message, you could setup your
email-client to filter my threads.
> Yes, I too got sucked into the negativity and further prorogated the
> waste of time by sending this message. I'll check back at a future
> date and hopefully, things in this forum will have changed.
It its *believable* that you cannot use mental methods to ignore
writings that you dislike.
But its *unbelievable* that you cannot use technical methods to do so.
I give you the best assistance, whilst writing mostly just in my threads.
The rest is up to you.
> Paul Dobson
[/CENSORED_MESSAGE]
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[CENSOR_MESSAGE]
Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
nbu...@netbeans.org mailing list.
I'm sorry, your message (enclosed) was not accepted by the moderator.
If the moderator has made any comments, they are shown below.
Subject:
Re: Congrats to Ilias Lazaridis: Mission Accomplished
From:
Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com>
Date:
Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:52:57 +0200
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[/CENSOR_MESSAGE]
.
Ilias Lazaridis
which contains several *ungentle* *implications*.
Re: I vote to ban (not kick) Ilias Lazaridis from the NB lists (all of them)
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=871952&listName=nbusers
My reply-message tries to counter those personal stuff - and
additionally to clarify several things.
This message was *censored* by Tim Boudreau (Sun Microsystems).
-
[CENSORED_MESSAGE]
Alan Stange wrote:
> Wade Chandler wrote:
>
>> I vote to ban (not kick) Ilias Lazaridis from the NB lists (all of
>> them)I want a vote. All those in favor please write an email that
>> says you vote to remove him, those who are not in favor please
>> write an email that says you do not support removing him. Please
>> put it in your subject so everyone can see clearly the intent.
>
> As a Sun customer and shareholder,
Your status [context Sun Microsystems] has no relevance within the
NetBeans Project.
> I want to see Sun employees working hard making better products, not
> dealing with every random brain fart posted to the list.
"random brain fart"
> Yes, we all need to be polite and diplomatic, but I too think that
> time has passed. Anyway, nothing is to stop Ilias from getting a
> gmail address and posting from that, so I don't know how one can be
> banned.
I post with my full personal name with a personal email from a personal
domain.
I would not change to another email.
But I would treat censorship as a personal attack against my persons.
> The whole Ilias diversion is so familiar. I happen to have a Ph.D. in
> theoretical physics.
bravo!
> I can't tell you how many papers I would get in which the author
> solved all of the remaining problems in physics employing some novel
> "creative" insights. Insights apparently achieved through the
> insufficient or excessive use of some pharmaceutical. It's a little
> scary when someone would show up at your office door and basically
> corner you...and excusing oneself to go to the bathroom didn't work.
Seeing your attitude, I'm sure that you would fail to detect some really
novel ideas within "theoretical physics", which someone [either clean,
stoned or untreated / insufficient treated] would present you.
The Willingness to See.
You don't get it with an "Ph. D. in theoretical Physics".
> Ilias, I think you've gotten the response from Sun that you deserve.
Sun Microsystems has not yet gotten the response that it deserves.
> So take the hint and move on.
I have no reason to leave.
My evaluation is not yet finished.
> It's fairly apparent that your brilliant ideas haven't resonated with
> anyone at Sun.
This is not exactly true.
> Perhaps if you were an actual Sun customer or shareholder then you
> might have some influence.
I see.
> As it stands, it appears that you're just a complainer.
Of course I am.
And I have the right to complain.
Whilst keeping the very simple rules of the Public NetBeans System.
> -- Alan
[/CENSORED_MESSAGE]
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Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
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I'm sorry, your message (enclosed) was not accepted by the moderator.
If the moderator has made any comments, they are shown below.
Subject:
Re: I vote to ban (not kick) Ilias Lazaridis from the NB lists (all of them)
From:
Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com>
Date:
Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:11:57 +0200
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Ilias Lazaridis
put nbu...@netbeans.org on *full* *moderation* [giving this way the
foundation for the *silent* *censorship*].
NbUsers is now on full moderation
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=872266&listName=nbusers
My reply-message *protests* against this action and request
clarifications about the underlying rules and processes.
I make some *assumptions*.
Additionally I ask Mr. Tim Boudreau to *apologize* and to *resign* from
his postition due to the *abuse* of power.
This message was *censored* by Tim Boudreau (Sun Microsystems).
-
[CENSORED_MESSAGE]
Tim Boudreau wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> As a result of the recent noise level on the lists and numerous
> requests from list members to manage it better, I just put
> nbu...@netbeans.org on full moderation.
As a current member and participant of this community, I like to protest
against this action.
The given rationales are not valid.
They cannot justify the censorship of the public NetBeans forum "nbusers".
Many users of this community have expressed clearly *agaist* any form of
censorship.
And even if not:
The NetBeans System does not define a process for applying moderation,
as its against the spirit of this liberal and open project.
-
Can you please clarify:
- what exactly gives you the authority to _personally_ take such a
critical decision and set the nbusers forum on moderation?
I have two versions:
a) You have abused the power of your position (Board Member) and your
influence due to your relation to the Project Sponsor (Sun Microsystems).
b) You have taken this step on request of the upper hierarchy at Sun
Microsystems.
What kind of a leader are you?
Do you actually *realize* what you have done?
*censorship* on a *public* open-source-project resource!
> Regrettably this means that posts to the list may be delayed pending
> approval. Hopefully it won't be necessary for long. Anyone who
> would like to volunteer to be a responsible moderator of this list,
> please volunteer.
I understand that you place any intrested party on the moderators list.
How do you ensure that the moderators can follow the moderation-rules?
Which are those moderation rules?
How can I verify that the moderators do not violate those moderations rules?
What can I do, if I detect that a moderator has violated a moderation rule?
> -Tim
You have cowardly finalized a critical discussion about "The NetBeans
Open Source Lie" with the method of censorship.
Have at least the courage and integrity to take *yourself* the
consequences of your unethical actions.
I strongly request you to:
* stop the censorship on the nbusers forum immediately.
* apologize publically for the *unjustified* censorship of *any* messages.
* resign from *any* position which gives you administrative access to
the NetBeans System Resources.
[/CENSORED_MESSAGE]
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[CENSOR_MESSAGE]
Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
nbu...@netbeans.org mailing list.
I'm sorry, your message (enclosed) was not accepted by the moderator.
If the moderator has made any comments, they are shown below.
Subject:
Re: NbUsers is now on full moderation
From:
Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com>
Date:
Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:12:44 +0200
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Ilias Lazaridis
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:02:20 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis
> <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>
>>You have cowardly finalized a critical discussion about "The NetBeans
>>Open Source Lie" with the method of censorship.
>
> have the option of using something else. Your constant bleating about
> it is just tiresome, nothing more.
Mr. "Noel no....@thank.you".
If you don't like the way in which I complain against public
*open-source-lies* and *censorship-attacks* against my person, please
use either mental or technical methods to ignore my writings.
Thank you.
.
Ilias Lazaridis
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:48:58 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis
> <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>
>>If you don't like the way in which I complain against public
>>*open-source-lies* and *censorship-attacks* against my person, please
>>use either mental or technical methods to ignore my writings.
>
I would not be surprised, if this fictive-extraordinary company uses
some of its lawyers.
This would be the next logical step after they see that censorship do
not help.
> If you had more than an ounce of common sense, a quick look at the
> NetBeans.org site would have put you right on the matter, and you
> would never have had to go throught he pain of 'evaluating' NetBeans
> and then discovering that the whole shooting match is not free, as per
> your requirements. As I said, if you don't like it, find something
> else that meets your requirements.
I've commented on this in the other thread.
[Remember, Mr. "Noel no....@thank.you", this thread here is about
censorship]
.
Ilias Lazaridis
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:43:17 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis
> <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>
>>>Your claims that anyone has lied are spurious and possibly libelous.
>>
>>I would not be surprised, if this fictive-extraordinary company uses
>>some of its lawyers.
>>
>>This would be the next logical step after they see that censorship do
>>not help.
>
> logical complaint.
Anyone [including Sun Microsystems Lawyers] can evaluate the validity of
my complaints.
That's why I've publicized them within usenet.
>>>If you had more than an ounce of common sense, a quick look at the
>>>NetBeans.org site would have put you right on the matter, and you
>>>would never have had to go throught he pain of 'evaluating' NetBeans
>>>and then discovering that the whole shooting match is not free, as per
>>>your requirements. As I said, if you don't like it, find something
>>>else that meets your requirements.
>>
>>I've commented on this in the other thread.
>>
>>http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/browse_frm/thread/452ff4de33491a34/633f0a55e520ef24
>>
>>[Remember, Mr. "Noel no....@thank.you", this thread here is about
>>censorship]
>
> So called 'censorship' that resulted from your attempts to ruin the
> netbeans groups with your constant bitching about netbeans not being
> true open source.
Anyone can evaluate the validity of the term "Censorship".
That's why I've publicized the returned messages within usenet.
.
Ilias Lazaridis
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=875384&listName=nbusers
Possibly this was due to an technical failure:
this was a "delivery failure" notification that I got after sending the
message:
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Subject:
[nbusers] Re: JAXP & other licenses
From:
Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com>
Date:
Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:30:36 +0200
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Tim Boudreau wrote:
> Re the JAXP license, I suspect it's just there because at some point
[...]
for the intrested readers, followups to this and other messages:
[NETBEANS] [CENSORSHIP] [Fwd: Returned post for nbu...@netbeans.org]
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/browse_frm/thread/93b90d984c64ae76/6ae81d9ae5fac267
and the further netbeans evaluation threads :
[NETBEANS] [EVALUATION] - E12 - The NetBeans Open Source Lie
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/browse_frm/thread/452ff4de33491a34/633f0a55e520ef24
..
-
-
-
.
Ilias Lazaridis
and to provide the promised final thread.
What follows?
The new Art of Censorship.
"I'm sorry, the list moderators for the nbusers list
have failed to act on your post."
of course they have failed.
They are weak.
And incapable.
-
[the google link within the thread is broken, working link provided here]
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d083536ebf340a76
-
[/CENSORED_MESSAGE]
Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...]
> Can *you* [yes, you] forward something like this to Sun's CTO:
>
> *MESSAGE_TO_MR_GREG_PAPADOPOULOS*
>
> "
[...]
> I'm not sure about him - but he asks to point you to this usenet
> message, you would understand:
>
> Michael Leonidas Dertouzos / The Falling Rain [comp.lang.lisp] Re:
> You want braces? I'll give you braces...
> http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=3D7B89D8.8050901%40pontos.net
> "
>
> After that, he would most possibly review this thread here and of
> course:
"Mentor: The late Michael Dertouzos, Director of the Laboratory for
Computer Science at MIT and author of The Unfinished Revolution. "He
taught me that you'd better have an emotional connection to technology
-- it has to feed your soul as well as your intellect."
source: http://www.sun.com/presents/minds/2004-0323/
"...it has to feed your soul as well as your intellect".
[...]
> Only _efficient_ open-source can win the battle.
>
> I've trained myself since years for this.
>
> Now I'm ready for it.
>
> -
>
> I'll post an evaluation Summary in the next [and most possibly last]
> thread.
[EVALUATION] - E10 - Summary: NetBeans is NOT open source, Sun is...
http://www.netbeans.org/servlets/ReadMsg?msgId=867428&listName=nbusers
[/CENSORED_MESSAGE]
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Subject:
Re: [EVALUATION] - E09 - Sun Microsystems Contrarian Minds, CTO, Radical
Simplification
From:
Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com>
Date:
Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:27:04 +0200
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