Programmer drought
Andang Kustamsi
Hi all,
There is an interesting article about programmer:
The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
Cheers,
Andang
Rich
I think the word that best describes this situation is:
COOOL! (I wish cool was spelled with a $)
Thanks for the URL!
Rich
Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> wrote in article
<33CB0D...@nmt.edu>...
David Bradley
Factor in the number of good vs bad programmers and it makes things really interesting.
David
bra...@erinet.com
Esarjeant
> Today, even the best of programmers painstakingly turns out some
> 10 lines of code a day.
Obviously this is some sort of average over the course of a week or a
month. A little misleading; otherwise, I think the article was very
encouraging for us programmer-types.
Joe Seigh
In article <33CB0D...@nmt.edu>, Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> writes:
|> Hi all,
|>
|> There is an interesting article about programmer:
|> The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
|> prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
|> http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
|>
It's utter nonsense. There's no shortage of programmers. There is
a shortage of programmers specialized in the exact set of skills
for the particular positions that are open, but that's because
nobody want's to train anyone, not because there's a programmer
shortage.
It's just propaganda so the Dept of whatever will loosen up
on those work permits.
(Disclaimer: I have nothing against the work permitees, but
I think their employers are exploitative and are a rather despicable lot.
The work permitees have my sympathy. )
Joe Seigh
unixw...@wco.com
In comp.lang.java.programmer Joe Seigh <se...@bose.com> wrote:
: It's utter nonsense. There's no shortage of programmers. There is
: a shortage of programmers specialized in the exact set of skills
: for the particular positions that are open, but that's because
: nobody want's to train anyone, not because there's a programmer
: shortage.
: It's just propaganda so the Dept of whatever will loosen up
: on those work permits.
i think you a dead on. six figure programmers - i've heard of them, in
fact i think i know one personally. <G> as with any other field of highly
skilled labor, there is a distribution of wages. in the silicon valley,
the average range in salary (not counting stock options etc...) is 30-80K
DOE and other stuff. those people pulling in big time dollars have a
specialized skill set, usually at least one advanced degree in the
sciences, great communication skills and project management skills. and i
assure you there is a drought of programmers with years of exp, advanced
degrees, knowledge of arcane software, great communications and project
management skills. unfortunately for the greedy employers, opeing up the
work permits won't likely meet the need.
IMHO, i am all for openness of work permits. capital is free to go
wherever the f**k it wants, why not labor?
steve doliov
Bob Holland
I agree. It is good to see a mojor life-decision validated...
God, I love this field...
Bobby Holland
Rich wrote:
>
> I think the word that best describes this situation is:
>
> COOOL! (I wish cool was spelled with a $)
>
> Thanks for the URL!
>
> Rich
>
> Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> wrote in article
> <33CB0D...@nmt.edu>...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > There is an interesting article about programmer:
> > The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
> > prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
> > http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Andang
> >
David Best
> |>
> |> There is an interesting article about programmer:
> |> The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
> |> prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
> |> http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
> |>
>
> a shortage of programmers specialized in the exact set of skills
> for the particular positions that are open, but that's because
> nobody want's to train anyone, not because there's a programmer
> shortage.
>
> It's just propaganda so the Dept of whatever will loosen up
> on those work permits.
>
> I think their employers are exploitative and are a rather despicable lot.
> The work permitees have my sympathy. )
>
> Joe Seigh
Joe, I suspect you are correct. The article makes this curious
observation:
"And no other plentiful source of software skills appears to be on the
horizon. Russia has promise, but it's limited: Few of it's programmers
speak English or understand business applications."
In other words "We want left-handed shortstops with a blue eye and a
green eye. Period." I suspect they don't want programmers, they want
disposable automatons.
Just my jaded view.
David Best
Cliff Rhodes
Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> wrote
> There is an interesting article about programmer:
> The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
> prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
> http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
Yep, there is such a huge drought, that they still pay newly minted MBA's two
to three times what an experienced programmer gets.
This is typical business propaganda. If they can show that a 'shortage' exists,
they can import cheap programmers into the U.S. Unfortunately, it always works,
much to the detriment of programmer's pay.
Pascal Dutilleul
Rich wrote:
>
> I think the word that best describes this situation is:
>
> COOOL! (I wish cool was spelled with a $)
>
> Thanks for the URL!
Me too !
Shit, I'm not on AOL.
Thanks for the URL,
maybe I should emmigrate from Europe to the US ?
> > Hi all,
> >
> > There is an interesting article about programmer:
> > The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
> > prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
> > http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------
freelance software engineer
ing. Pascal Dutilleul
Pascal.D...@ping.be Borland Connections Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Constantin Okrainets
Cliff Rhodes wrote:
>
> Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> wrote
>
> > There is an interesting article about programmer:
> > The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
> > prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
> > http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
>
> to three times what an experienced programmer gets.
>
> This is typical business propaganda. If they can show that a 'shortage' exists,
> they can import cheap programmers into the U.S. Unfortunately, it always works,
> much to the detriment of programmer's pay.
Bullshit.
It's not possible to "import cheap programmers".
In petition employer have to show that salary of prospective
programmer will be average or more for position specified
in geographical area (state). Otherwise work permit isnt given.
This is basic requirement.
I know a lot of "imported" programmers and I assure you
NONE of them gets less than average and vast majority
gets not less than fresh minted MBA.
---
Const. Okrainets
Nigel Tzeng
In article <33CE5407...@intrex.net>,
David Best <db...@intrex.net.spammenot> wrote:
[snip]
>Joe, I suspect you are correct. The article makes this curious
>observation:
>
> "And no other plentiful source of software skills appears to be on the
>horizon. Russia has promise, but it's limited: Few of it's programmers
>speak English or understand business applications."
>
>In other words "We want left-handed shortstops with a blue eye and a
>green eye. Period." I suspect they don't want programmers, they want
>disposable automatons.
No...it says that we want programmers that can hopefully read the
original specs (not a translated version) and know the problem domain.
Nothing horrible about that.
The few russian programmers I met seemed competent and knew their
particular problem domain (not business s/w). However, throw in the
costs of buying them all equipment, paying translators and flying to
Moscow for technical meetings and the cost benefit gets eaten away
pretty fast.
Just ask Boeing.
>Just my jaded view.
>
>David Best
Nigel
PS Good translators are hard to find for technical specs. It takes a
couple of extra passes to find all the slightly mis-translated
technical terms.
My father does this sort of work and it isn't pretty when the jargon
gets thick. In fact he doesn't do this sort of work anymore because
translating American computer jargon (which is hardly english to begin
with) into Chinese computer jargon is more hassle than even the high
rates that a translator can command is worth to him. You really need
some domain knowledge to do a good job. At 74 he's not about to go
out and get a CS degree.
Want to make money fast? :) Be a Chinese or Russian translator with a
legal degree. Translating multi-billion yuan/ruble/dollar contracts
can be very lucrative. So is being the hired gun when inevitable
contract disputes arise.
Jeff Harrington
unixw...@wco.com wrote:
: i think you a dead on. six figure programmers - i've heard of them, in
: fact i think i know one personally. <G> as with any other field of highly
Get this. We're looking for a junior level Java guy. This 20 something,
currently making $75, 2 1/2 years of programming games asked us for $100k.
He won't get it, but the fact that he asked was just bizarre. Headhunter
told him to go for it.
Jeff Harrington [ "Art does not make peace...that is not its business...]
je...@parnasse.com [ Art is peace." --Robert Lowell]
http://www.parnasse.com/jeff.htm --------->>[[ My Music ]]<<--------------]
http://www.parnasse.com/vrml.shtml ------->>[[ My Worlds ]]<<-------------]
RHS Linux User
>>
>> > There is an interesting article about programmer:
>> > The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
I'm James R. Drought, and yes, I'm a great programmer! :)
Could not resist!
Jon.
Mark Boon
In The Netherlands there's currently a great shortage of programmers
as well. Paradoxically however, even though the wages seem to be much
lower than in the U.S., they seem to remain more or less constant. The
average is even dropping a bit, though that seems to be caused by the
increasingly younger age at which programmers get recruited.
Anders Bornholm
Sweden also has a great programmer shortage. Wages here too seem to be
much lower than in the US (and other European countries). The
companies that pay the lowest wages are the biggest ones, while at the
same time they are complaining about competent people leaving the
country. Go figure...
/| ) Anders Bornholm | E-mail: d95...@nada.kth.se
/_|_) Computer Science KTH | http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~d95-abo
Matt Kennel (Remove 'NOSPAM' to reply)
On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:35:20 GMT, Mark Boon <tes...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
:In The Netherlands there's currently a great shortage of programmers
:as well. Paradoxically however, even though the wages seem to be much
:lower than in the U.S., they seem to remain more or less constant. The
:average is even dropping a bit, though that seems to be caused by the
:increasingly younger age at which programmers get recruited.
In a market economy this is prima facie evidence that there is NOT a
''shortage'' of programmers.
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Matt Kennel (Remove 'NOSPAM' to reply)
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:55:07 -0700, Constantin Okrainets <o...@almaden.ibm.com> wrote:
:Cliff Rhodes wrote:
:>
:> This is typical business propaganda. If they can show that a 'shortage' exists,
:> they can import cheap programmers into the U.S. Unfortunately, it always works,
:> much to the detriment of programmer's pay.
:
:Bullshit.
:
:It's not possible to "import cheap programmers".
:In petition employer have to show that salary of prospective
:programmer will be average or more for position specified
:in geographical area (state). Otherwise work permit isnt given.
:This is basic requirement.
:
:I know a lot of "imported" programmers and I assure you
:NONE of them gets less than average and vast majority
:gets not less than fresh minted MBA.
Don't you see??? If there weren't imported programmers the salary would
be higher still.
--
Jo Grant
Here in Ireland we are one of Europe's main exporters of programmers. Per
capita we produce 8 times as many Computer Science graduates than the US
does. We speak English and we're cheap. There aren't enough jobs in the
country so they just flock elsewhere.
:-)
Jo Grant
Nick Wagg
Matt Kennel (Remove 'NOSPAM' to reply) wrote:
>
> On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:35:20 GMT, Mark Boon <tes...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> :In The Netherlands there's currently a great shortage of programmers
> :as well. Paradoxically however, even though the wages seem to be much
> :lower than in the U.S., they seem to remain more or less constant. The
> :average is even dropping a bit, though that seems to be caused by the
> :increasingly younger age at which programmers get recruited.
>
> In a market economy this is prima facie evidence that there is NOT a
> ''shortage'' of programmers.
The Netherlands is not a market economy - all programmers work for
Philips. :)
--
Nick Wagg (mailto:ni...@lsl.co.uk) Laser-Scan Ltd,
Senior Software Engineer Science Park, Milton Rd,
Tel: +44(0)1223 420414 (ext 213) Cambridge, CB4 4FY, UK.
Fax: +44(0)1223 420044 http://www.lsl.co.uk/
Marcel van der Holst
Nick Wagg (ni...@lsl.co.uk) wrote:
: Matt Kennel (Remove 'NOSPAM' to reply) wrote:
: >
: > On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:35:20 GMT, Mark Boon <tes...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
: > :In The Netherlands there's currently a great shortage of programmers
: > :as well. Paradoxically however, even though the wages seem to be much
: > :lower than in the U.S., they seem to remain more or less constant. The
: > :average is even dropping a bit, though that seems to be caused by the
: > :increasingly younger age at which programmers get recruited.
: >
: > In a market economy this is prima facie evidence that there is NOT a
: > ''shortage'' of programmers.
: The Netherlands is not a market economy - all programmers work for
: Philips. :)
And the smart programmers are leaving the Netherlands ... ;)
Marcel
Bradley K. Sherman
Smart programmers will be doing all they can to instill
the perception of a programmer drought, regardless of
the reality. Perception is as important as reality
when it comes time to negotiate salary. Maybe more
important.
--bks
Mark Boon
On 21 Jul 1997 04:11:45 GMT, ken...@nospam.lyapunov.ucsd.edu (Matt
Kennel (Remove 'NOSPAM' to reply)) wrote:
>In a market economy this is prima facie evidence that there is NOT a
>''shortage'' of programmers.
>
I'm afraid you have a rather simplified idea of what a 'market
economy' is. Although most countries have laws against monopolies,
kartels and such, it's hard to keep an industry from following a
similar policy. In a market economy even more so.
A few years back there was also a programmers drought, leading to ever
increasing wages for programmers. Then in 1991 there was a sudden
collapse of the (programmers) market and a lot of companies went broke
or didn't know how fast they could lay off idle programmers that were
costing them so much. This has instilled a reluctancy this time to bid
ever higher salaries.
There's an interesting game (if that's what to call it) that has an
analogy to this situation. Say I offer a dollar for auction. You can
start bidding as low as you like. The only rule is that I get what you
bid for it, but also the person who made the second highest bid has to
pay me his bid.
For those who don't see the analogy, the dollar is the programmers
skills, the highest bid his salary, the second highest bid the
experience/education he got from his previous employer.
Try this on an unwary group of people, and you get a bidding spiral to
amounts that don't seem to make any sense. Way more than a dollar. The
problem is the loss of the second highest bidder. He can choose to
accept his (substantial) loss, or bid just a little bit more and at
least win the bidding contest as compensation. Continuing bidding
always seems more attractive.
Try this on a group for the second time, then everyone will be very
wary to make any bid at all. In the end, someone will bid a little bit
less than a dollar, but not so much less as to tempt someone to try to
put a bid in between his bid and a dollar.
jhomri...@national.aaa.com
Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
Perception is reality.
Eric Buckley
Mark Boon wrote:
> A few years back there was also a programmers drought, leading to ever
> increasing wages for programmers. Then in 1991 there was a sudden
> collapse of the (programmers) market and a lot of companies went broke
> or didn't know how fast they could lay off idle programmers that were
> costing them so much. This has instilled a reluctancy this time to bid
> ever higher salaries.
That's why so many companies are going to contractors. You can bring
them in for specific tasks and then get them out without having to worry
about severence, etc.. Of course, once a big company gets a contractor
they like, they are very reluctant to let them go. I've seen contractors
stay at a site for almost 10 years. This is brainless, because the
company could just hire the contractor, but then they would screw up
their compensation plan because the contractor is making a lot more than
an employee would in that situation. You're left with the situation
where the company is paying higher wages in an effort to keep wages
down!
<Rather amusing game snipped>
________________________
Eric Buckley
Comsys Millenium Services
eMail: remove NoSpam from above
Standard disclaimer - I speak for myself and nobody else.
Ken Lee
In article <33D4C4...@edwardjones.com>, Eric Buckley
<Eric.NoSp...@edwardjones.com> writes:
|> This is brainless, because the
|> company could just hire the contractor, but then they would screw up
|> their compensation plan because the contractor is making a lot more than
|> an employee would in that situation.
If the contracter was that good, he or she would refuse the offer
(which would almost surely be a large pay cut).
--
Ken Lee, ken...@rahul.net, http://www.rahul.net/kenton/
Eric Buckley
Ken Lee wrote:
>
> In article <33D4C4...@edwardjones.com>, Eric Buckley
> <Eric.NoSp...@edwardjones.com> writes:
> |> This is brainless, because the
> |> company could just hire the contractor, but then they would screw up
> |> their compensation plan because the contractor is making a lot more than
> |> an employee would in that situation.
>
> If the contracter was that good, he or she would refuse the offer
> (which would almost surely be a large pay cut).
But that's exactly my point. Suppose you have a contractor who's working
through an agency. The agency bills $95/hr and the contractor gets $60
(W2). Now the contractor has to pick up benefits, that's probably around
$7K-$10K depending on their family situation. At 2000 hrs/year that
gives, conservatively, $110K per year. But the company paid $190K. That
company could hire the contractor at $130K, give them benefits and still
be up $50K. You can plug in your own numbers based on skill set and
experience, but it comes out the same way each time.
Companies claim that this doesn't account for management overhead and
the like, but this is crazy. I manage contractors and regular employees.
The contractors require every bit as much attention. Companies also have
the rather annoying habit of overrating their benefits. I had one
company tell me that their benefits were worth $30K. I asked how they
figured that and found they were counting vacation time. But the pay for
vacation is already in your base! You don't get a bonus for skipping out
for two weeks. Most salaried people work well over 2000 hours per year.
The real (unstated) problem is that companies just can't bring
themselves to pay $130K for a programmer. The fact that they are already
paying close to $200K is somehow lost on them.
Kevin McCarty
On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Anders Bornholm wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:35:20 GMT, tes...@xs4all.nl (Mark Boon) wrote:
> >In The Netherlands there's currently a great shortage of programmers
> >as well. Paradoxically however, even though the wages seem to be much
> >lower than in the U.S., they seem to remain more or less constant. The
> >average is even dropping a bit, though that seems to be caused by the
> >increasingly younger age at which programmers get recruited.
>
> Sweden also has a great programmer shortage. Wages here too seem to be
> much lower than in the US (and other European countries). The
> companies that pay the lowest wages are the biggest ones, while at the
> same time they are complaining about competent people leaving the
> country. Go figure...
>
>
> /| ) Anders Bornholm | E-mail: d95...@nada.kth.se
> /_|_) Computer Science KTH | http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~d95-abo
>
>
So please tell me what the wages for programmers are in Europe.
Thanks for your time.
Kev mcc...@sage.edu
Kevin Swan
Eric Buckley (Eric.NoSp...@edwardjones.com) wrote:
: That's why so many companies are going to contractors. You can bring
: them in for specific tasks and then get them out without having to worry
: about severence, etc.. Of course, once a big company gets a contractor
: they like, they are very reluctant to let them go. I've seen contractors
: stay at a site for almost 10 years. This is brainless, because the
: company could just hire the contractor, but then they would screw up
: their compensation plan because the contractor is making a lot more than
: an employee would in that situation. You're left with the situation
: where the company is paying higher wages in an effort to keep wages
: down!
First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
wouldn't hire them at all.
Secondly, whenever a company brings in cheap labour such as contractors,
they usually face A LOT of pressure from its union and employees.
It is for these reasons that companies are shy about bringing in
contractors for short-term work.
Kev.
--
Kevin Swan BCSH
My university broke my email. If you want to email me, please send it to
013...@dragon.acadiau.ca Acadia University
How's my posting? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
** Fatal Error [1]: 'Win95' virus detected on /dev/hda1; Formatting ...
Ken Lee
In article <33d50...@131.162.2.91>, ke...@kombat.acadiau.ca (Kevin Swan) writes:
|> First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
|> would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
|> wouldn't hire them at all.
This may be true of certain areas or certain fields. In others,
contractors can make 150% to 300% of an average employee's hourly rate
(e.g., an employee makes $40/hour and a contractor makes $100/hour).
Employers pay these rates because:
1. the contractors have skills that employees don't (including potential
new hires)
2. thus, the contractors don't need training and can contribute immediately
3. since contractors have usually done similar (or exactly the same) project
before, they are less likely to make mistakes
4. contractors can be hired for short term projects (e.g., a few weeks or
a few months) while employees are still on their learning curve
5. lots of other reasons dealing with taxes, accounting, company policies, etc.
Ron Smith
Kevin Swan wrote:
>
> First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
> would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
> wouldn't hire them at all.
>
> they usually face A LOT of pressure from its union and employees.
>
> It is for these reasons that companies are shy about bringing in
> contractors for short-term work.
I have never known ANY of these statements to be true.
1) I have never worked anywhere that the contractors were not being paid
at LEAST 25-50% more than the employees (usuall more like 100-150%)
2) Many companies use more contractors than employees.
3) Most companies will not hesitate to bring on a short-term contractor
simply because they are short-term. That is one benefit of hiring
consultants.
Where are you from??? As a contractor, I want to be sure to steer clear
of
where ever it is.
Charles E. Matthews
Kevin Swan wrote:
>
> Secondly, whenever a company brings in cheap labour such as contractors,
> they usually face A LOT of pressure from its union and employees.
I've been working in this field for 20 years. I've never ever met a
programmer who belongs to a union. That doesn't mean that they don't
exist, but it seriously damages your argument.
______________________________________________________________________
Charles E. Matthews
Software consulting in knowledge
Synergistic Technologies based systems and object oriented
chu...@infonet.isl.net analysis and design
DanKirkd
In article <33D4A43B...@national.aaa.com>,
jhomri...@national.aaa.com writes:
>Perception is reality.
That has to be one of the most concisely true statements
I've read in this newsgroup.
Dan
--
Daniel A. Kirkdorffer
Internet Consultant, Zeal Inc.
dk...@srds.com http://www.zealinc.com/
DanK...@aol.com http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/
**Visual Cafe Tips: http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/vcafe.htm
Robert S. White
In article <33d50...@131.162.2.91>, ke...@kombat.acadiau.ca says...
>
>First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
>would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
>wouldn't hire them at all.
Wrong! Try $50 to $70 an hour! For some industries. Going at
least to the contractor if not to the temp employee. When the company
makes a job offer to a _good_ temp working for a contractor, the offer
most often looks ridiculous to the temp (young, healthy, wants big
bucks NOW).
>Secondly, whenever a company brings in cheap labour such as contractors,
>they usually face A LOT of pressure from its union and employees.
Union? What union?
>It is for these reasons that companies are shy about bringing in
>contractors for short-term work.
Your above statements are _not_ true, IME, in the U.S.
_____________________________________________________________________
Robert S. White -- An embedded systems software engineer
Boyd Roberts
In article <33D555...@infonet.isl.net>, "Charles E. Matthews" <chu...@infonet.isl.net> writes:
>I've been working in this field for 20 years. I've never ever met a
>programmer who belongs to a union.
Every programmer has a union -- their feet.
--
Boyd Roberts <bo...@france3.fr> N 31 447109 5411310
``Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad.'' -- rob
Barry Margolin
In article <5r4ane$nca$2...@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>,
Robert S. White <Whi...@no.spam.please.CRPL.Cedar-Rapids.lib.IA.US> wrote:
>In article <33d50...@131.162.2.91>, ke...@kombat.acadiau.ca says...
>>
>>First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
>>would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
>>wouldn't hire them at all.
>
> Wrong! Try $50 to $70 an hour! For some industries. Going at
The difference is in the benefits. A contractor earning $50/hour also has
to purchase his own medical insurance, perhaps pay for his own equipment,
doesn't get pension benefits, etc. His job security is lower -- he's
essentially job hunting every few months when the contracts run out.
However, companies often hire contractors even though the actual cost is
higher than a regular employee, because they can account for them
differently. The cost of a regular employee is considered to be a
permanent cost -- reducing headcount is difficult. Contractors are a
temporary cost -- when the contract runs out, the company can choose note
to renew.
--
Barry Margolin, bar...@bbnplanet.com
BBN Corporation, Cambridge, MA
Support the anti-spam movement; see <http://www.cauce.org/>
Nick Wagg
Kevin McCarty wrote:
>
> So please tell me what the wages for programmers are in Europe.
>
to take into account. Rates vary from country to country and from
region to region within the same country. In my experience you will
always make more money in the financial/commercial world than in the
scientific/technical/engineering world?
What other skills do you have, such as fluency in the language of the
country of your chosen future career - yes, English will do but you will
get on better with your colleagues and probably get paid more if you
make some attempt to learn the local lingo. How many years experience?
Project leadership?
What about exchange rates? What about when exchange rates change?
What about the cost and standard of living in a foreign country?
What about quality of life? Is money the only thing you are interested
in?
How long is a piece of string?
I can only assume that you are a newbie (or an American :-) ) from the
naivety of your question.
By all means come to Europe to experience a different way (or many
different ways) of life. Get some programming experience while you are
at it. Find out what you like doing and then worry about the money.
Remember that for many of us, the American Dream is a nightmare but,
even in Europe, we all have mothers and most of us have apple pie. :)
Nick Wagg
Charles E. Matthews wrote:
>
> I've been working in this field for 20 years. I've never ever met a
> exist, but it seriously damages your argument.
>
the Netherlands) and have met quite a few programmers who belong to a
union. In the UK, they have usually been members of MSF or BIFU which
are far from militant or extreme unions. Nevertheless, union influence
has dwindled since the beginning of the Thatcher years. That is
probably more a reflection on the ease with which programmers can find
another job than with improving industrial relations.
Most companies do indeed use contractors to fill short term needs,
although I have worked for employers who have kept some staff
virtually permanently on contract. This has usually been because they
are paid at vastly inflated rates for some rare skill and it would be
politically embarrassing to employ them as salaried staff, either
because they would have to be paid more than their boss, or would no
longer fit within the company pay structure. Needless to say, such
situations nearly always cause a certain amount of bad feeling,
regardless of union presence.
Tracey or Jon
Charles E. Matthews (chu...@infonet.isl.net) wrote:
: Kevin Swan wrote:
: >
: > Secondly, whenever a company brings in cheap labour such as contractors,
: > they usually face A LOT of pressure from its union and employees.
:
: I've been working in this field for 20 years. I've never ever met a
: programmer who belongs to a union. That doesn't mean that they don't
: exist, but it seriously damages your argument.
The programmers at Sperry (now Unisys) were in a union.
Jon
Randy Kaelber
Kevin Swan (ke...@kombat.acadiau.ca) wrote:
> First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
> would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
> wouldn't hire them at all.
You're not serious, are you? While it's theoretically possible for a
contract programmer working for a contract company to make less than the
full-time employees of the company he's working for, it is most
*definitely* not cheaper to hire a contractor than a full-time programmer.
The contract gig is usually short term (< 1 year), but it doesn't wind up
working out that way sometimes.
Followups slightly redirected (misc.jobs.contract looked at first glance
to be the right place for this)
--
Randy Kaelber: kael...@muohio.edu http://avian.dars.muohio.edu/~randy/
DARS Programmer/Analyst, Miami University, Oxford, OH 45056 USA
------------------------------------------------------------
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were
a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." - Mark Twain
Paul Jenkins
Barry Margolin <bar...@bbnplanet.com> wrote in article
<5r4ggj$2...@pasilla.bbnplanet.com>...
> In article <5r4ane$nca$2...@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>,
> Robert S. White <Whi...@no.spam.please.CRPL.Cedar-Rapids.lib.IA.US>
wrote:
> >In article <33d50...@131.162.2.91>, ke...@kombat.acadiau.ca says...
> >>
> >>would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
> >>wouldn't hire them at all.
> >
>
> The difference is in the benefits. A contractor earning $50/hour also
has
> to purchase his own medical insurance, perhaps pay for his own equipment,
> doesn't get pension benefits, etc. His job security is lower -- he's
> essentially job hunting every few months when the contracts run out.
>
um, when was the last time you looked into consulting? I can go get
$60/hour today in Dallas/Ft Worth with full benefits, 401K, vacation, etc
working for a myriad of consulting firms. Maybe it is different in other
parts of the country/world, but you definitely make more money as a
consultant --- the downside to consulting is that you are constantly
changing projects/jobs. I don't buy the job security factor any longer
with the way most companies treat employees as commodities.
my $0.02.
paul
--
Paul Jenkins Voyager(tm)
pjen...@objectspace.com Agent-Enhanced ORB for Java
http://www.objectspace.com Free for commercial use
Eric Buckley
Nick Wagg wrote:
>
> Kevin McCarty wrote:
> >
> > So please tell me what the wages for programmers are in Europe.
> >
> If you are only interested in money then there are lots of other factors
> to take into account. Rates vary from country to country and from
> region to region within the same country. In my experience you will
> always make more money in the financial/commercial world than in the
> scientific/technical/engineering world?
Generally true, but there are certainly exceptions. I know defense
contractors who make well over $100/hr. Some people have problems with
that line of work, though. Of course, if money is really your motivator,
then you shouldn't be programming at all. A big 6 methodology handwaver
makes three times what a competent engineer pulls in.
Eric Buckley
Barry Margolin wrote:
>
> In article <5r4ane$nca$2...@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>,
> Robert S. White <Whi...@no.spam.please.CRPL.Cedar-Rapids.lib.IA.US> wrote:
> >In article <33d50...@131.162.2.91>, ke...@kombat.acadiau.ca says...
> >>
> >>First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
> >>would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
> >>wouldn't hire them at all.
> >
> > Wrong! Try $50 to $70 an hour! For some industries. Going at
>
> The difference is in the benefits. A contractor earning $50/hour also has
> to purchase his own medical insurance, perhaps pay for his own equipment,
> doesn't get pension benefits, etc. His job security is lower -- he's
> essentially job hunting every few months when the contracts run out.
As I said in the post that got this line started, companies always think
their benefits are worth *way* too much. I pay about $7,000 per year for
benefits. These are a largely tax deductible so it comes out to less
than $3/hr on my take home. I also have a 401K through my prime because
I take my rate on a W2 instead of a 1099. Any time I've had to pay for
equipment I've been able to bill it. I usually get to keep it at the end
of the contract, too.
As for job security, I don't think that's a big issue if you take care
to build a reputation. Not so much a technical rep, but one of a person
who puts in all their hours, doesn't bail in the middle of contracts,
knows how to deal with employees that are making less for the same work,
etc..
I've not had any down time in over three years. As a full time employee,
I've been laid off twice. Contracting is not for everybody, because it
is much higher stress, but the money is better, and the security thing's
not a big deal if you know how to market yourself.
> However, companies often hire contractors even though the actual cost is
> higher than a regular employee, because they can account for them
> differently.
That was the point of my first post. Companies are making bad business
decisions because of accounting rules. So what if one employee makes
three times as much as another with the same job title? If that's their
worth to the company, then pay 'em.
> The cost of a regular employee is considered to be a
> permanent cost -- reducing headcount is difficult. Contractors are a
> temporary cost -- when the contract runs out, the company can choose note
> to renew.
It should work this way, but some contractors stay on for years.
Martin Tom Brown
In article <33D4F8...@edwardjones.com>
Eric.NoSp...@edwardjones.com "Eric Buckley" writes:
> Ken Lee wrote:
> >
> > In article <33D4C4...@edwardjones.com>, Eric Buckley
> > <Eric.NoSp...@edwardjones.com> writes:
> > |> This is brainless, because the
> > |> company could just hire the contractor, but then they would screw up
> > |> their compensation plan because the contractor is making a lot more than
> > |> an employee would in that situation.
> >
> > If the contracter was that good, he or she would refuse the offer
> > (which would almost surely be a large pay cut).
> The real (unstated) problem is that companies just can't bring
> themselves to pay $130K for a programmer. The fact that they are already
> paying close to $200K is somehow lost on them.
The main problem is that the company wants to retain a perceived
flexibility of no long term commitment to it's contractors.
It does allow them to even out the peak project load on demand.
And they are prepared to pay dear for the privilege. It seems to
have escaped most of them that they are permanently short staffed.
In part this is largely an artefact of the taxation/benefits system.
Permanent employees have more rights and pension contributions etc.
The other reason is to bring in a specific problem solving skill set
which they would have no profitable way of employing full time.
Regards,
--
Martin Brown <mar...@nezumi.demon.co.uk> __ CIS: 71651,470
Scientific Software Consultancy /^,,)__/
Jim Kellerman
> However, companies often hire contractors even though the actual cost
> is higher than a regular employee, because they can account for them
> differently. The cost of a regular employee is considered to be a
> permanent cost -- reducing headcount is difficult. Contractors are a
> temporary cost -- when the contract runs out, the company can choose
> not to renew.
Yes. It is far easier to get rid of a contractor than a full-time
employee. With the contractor, just don't renew the contract. With
a full-time employee, you either have to do a reassignment, layoff
or fire them.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Kellerman Forte Software, Inc.
ji...@forte.com 1800 Harrison Street, Fifteenth Floor
Phone: (510) 869-2099 Oakland, CA 94612
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Kennel (Remove 'NOSPAM' to reply)
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:39:45 GMT, Bradley K. Sherman <b...@netcom.com> wrote:
:Smart programmers will be doing all they can to instill
:the perception of a programmer drought, regardless of
:the reality. Perception is as important as reality
:when it comes time to negotiate salary. Maybe more
:important.
Smart industry lobbyists will be doing all they can to
instill the perception of a programmer drought, regardless
of the reality. Perception is as important as reality
when it comes time to pass legislation. Undoubtably
more important.
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Tony McCreath
Kevin McCarty wrote:
>
> So please tell me what the wages for programmers are in Europe.
>
In the UK its a lot less than in the US. I got a 50% pay rise
for an internal move to the US :-), and its cheaper to live in
the US also.
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Tony McCreath R.I. "wibble, wibble, fish"
Nortel - System Engineering Email - mccr...@nortel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Robert Ladd
Ken Lee <ken...@rahul.net-> wrote:
> In article <33D4C4...@edwardjones.com>, Eric Buckley
> <Eric.NoSp...@edwardjones.com> writes:
> |> This is brainless, because the
> |> company could just hire the contractor, but then they
would screw up
> |> their compensation plan because the contractor is making a
lot more than
> |> an employee would in that situation.
>
> If the contracter was that good, he or she would refuse the
offer
> (which would almost surely be a large pay cut).
Well, as a person who has lived as a contractor for over a
decade, I think you need to look at factors beyond raw dollars.
Yes, I make more money now -- much more -- than I did when I
was an employee. But, for example, I also have to pay a couple
hundred bucks a month for family medical insurance (I have
three very active daughters). I also need to buy my own
equipment ($3000-$5000 every 18 to 24 months) just to stay on
the technological edge. When I had a "real" employer (as
opposed to contract clients and publishers), they paid for the
Unix workstations and PCs and software and insurance and
vacations... (self-employed people don't get paid vacations).
Would I go back to working for someone full time? No way! The
freedom is exhilarating; if I get stuck on a project, I can go
up to the lake and do some fly fishing, or take my kids for a
stroll in the mountains. If one of my daughters is in an
afternoon play, I can go; if I want to work at 2AM, I can sleep
in the next day.
But in terms of money, being a contractor isn't necessarily
better than having a regular paycheck and benefits.
--
<Scott Robert Ladd>
srl...@frontier.net
Visit http://www.frontier.net/~srladd, home of ALife Central
and Insight/Java
Kevin Swan
Ron Smith (rk...@cris.com) wrote:
: Kevin Swan wrote:
: >
: > First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
: > would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
: > wouldn't hire them at all.
: > Secondly, whenever a company brings in cheap labour such as contractors,
: > they usually face A LOT of pressure from its union and employees.
: I have never known ANY of these statements to be true.
Really? Full-time employees never had any objections to contractors?
That's really quite unusual.
: 1) I have never worked anywhere that the contractors were not being paid
: at LEAST 25-50% more than the employees (usuall more like 100-150%)
: 2) Many companies use more contractors than employees.
: 3) Most companies will not hesitate to bring on a short-term contractor
: simply because they are short-term. That is one benefit of hiring
: consultants.
: Where are you from??? As a contractor, I want to be sure to steer clear
: of where ever it is.
Nova Scotia, Canada. My experience on this topics is based on a 4 month
work term I had a Michelin Tire, in Granton, Nova Scotia. The plant has
been laying off some full-time employees and bringing in contractors who
were paid *less* than the employees. In this case, the necessary training
was minimal, so there was little expense dedicated to training new hires.
And yes, there was much tension among the employees and management
regarding laying off full-time employees in favour of long-term contractors
who were cheaper.
Nicholas Kitchener
Randy Kaelber wrote:
>
> Kevin Swan (ke...@kombat.acadiau.ca) wrote:
>
> > First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
> > would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
> > wouldn't hire them at all.
>
> contract programmer working for a contract company to make less than the
> full-time employees of the company he's working for, it is most
Not quite true- a contractor may end up being expensive to a software
house
but cheaper to the client as full-time employees are normally charged to
the
client with overheads whilst contractors tend not to have these
overheads.
A reason for hiring contractors is to provide an instant skill base and
to
allow rapid dynamic expansion/contraction of the workforce.
> The contract gig is usually short term (< 1 year), but it doesn't wind up
> working out that way sometimes.
Just my 2 ecus worth.
Nick.
--
* Nicholas Kitchener, Software Engineer, Logica UK
http://www.logica.com *
* Remove ANTISPAM on replying: junk mail will be bounced to your
postmaster. *
* I do not represent the views, opinions of
Logica. *
Nigel Tzeng
In article <01bc9780$a9afa580$68c9...@animas.frontier.net>,
Scott Robert Ladd <srl...@frontier.net> wrote:
[snip]
>> If the contracter was that good, he or she would refuse the
>offer
>> (which would almost surely be a large pay cut).
>
>Well, as a person who has lived as a contractor for over a
>decade, I think you need to look at factors beyond raw dollars.
>Yes, I make more money now -- much more -- than I did when I
>was an employee. But, for example, I also have to pay a couple
>hundred bucks a month for family medical insurance (I have
Yeah...but that is reflected in your rates. Deduct out your
overhead and your "take home" should still be much higher
than as an employee.
>three very active daughters). I also need to buy my own
>equipment ($3000-$5000 every 18 to 24 months) just to stay on
>the technological edge. When I had a "real" employer (as
I've gotten around that (sometimes) by charging the equipment cost to
the contract (but only when they are deliverables), leasing (which can
sometimes be a tax advantage over depreciation) and living with
equipment that's not quite cutting edge. You must be talking about
PCs...very few Unix boxes come in the 3-5K range :)
[snip]
>But in terms of money, being a contractor isn't necessarily
>better than having a regular paycheck and benefits.
It has to be or you go out of business...the risk as a contractor is
much higher and you need the cushion the higher rates provide. It
needs to cover everything from companies who pay late (net 360!?!),
pay never, and those times when you don't have something lined up
right away. That's on top of benefits, accountant and laywers,
capital expenses, etc.
I never could figure out how those $25/hr (full time) contractors got
anywhere except broke. That's not even as good as some starting
salaries (factoring in benefits).
The freedom is nice though. :) Trying to figure out where the next
contract is coming from while working 60+ hrs/wk on the current one
wasn't.
>--
><Scott Robert Ladd>
>srl...@frontier.net
Nigel
Jake Cormier
Nick Wagg wrote:
>
> I can only assume that you are a newbie (or an American :-) ) from the
> naivety of your question.
Ouch! He's a college student (and a New Yorker, at that)! Cut the rest
of us some slack... ;-)
--
Jake Cormier
SuperCede Technical Support
Asymetrix Corporation
Check out "The Fastest Java on the Planet" at http://www.supercede.com/
John Park
Ron Smith wrote:
>
> Kevin Swan wrote:
> 1) I have never worked anywhere that the contractors were not being paid
> at LEAST 25-50% more than the employees (usuall more like 100-150%)
>
> 2) Many companies use more contractors than employees.
>
> 3) Most companies will not hesitate to bring on a short-term
hehe agreed..
Well for those of you who read the article, what is the general
response from reading the article? I found it to be
true in most of what it said in terms of foreign talents,
high demand of programmers, ferocity and difficulty of hiring
good programmers, etc... but I thought the article was a little
exaggerated in terms of the picture it painted concerning the
demand for programmers all over the world. What do you think?
Walter van Iterson
Marcel van der Holst wrote:
>
> And the smart programmers are leaving the Netherlands ... ;)
>
Ssssst.
They might want to follow us...
;-)
Walter van Iterson
walte...@sni.de
Jeffrey C. Dege
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:00:39 -0500, Eric Buckley <Eric.NoSp...@edwardjones.com> wrote:
>Barry Margolin wrote:
>>
>> The difference is in the benefits. A contractor earning $50/hour also has
>> to purchase his own medical insurance, perhaps pay for his own equipment,
>> doesn't get pension benefits, etc. His job security is lower -- he's
>> essentially job hunting every few months when the contracts run out.
>
>As I said in the post that got this line started, companies always think
>their benefits are worth *way* too much. I pay about $7,000 per year for
>benefits. These are a largely tax deductible so it comes out to less
>than $3/hr on my take home. I also have a 401K through my prime because
>I take my rate on a W2 instead of a 1099. Any time I've had to pay for
>equipment I've been able to bill it. I usually get to keep it at the end
>of the contract, too.
How much did it cost to set up those benefits? I had a company lay me
off one week and offer to hire me back as a contractor the next, so
I took a quick look at how much time, effort, and money I would need
to set up my own health coverage, retirement plan, tax withholding,
etc., and it didn't look cheap.
--
First twenty-one new features that somehow we must add in.
Then thirty-seven changes show up much to our chagrin.
And this thing's just inadequate, and that one's just plain wrong.
And by the way your schedule is about three months too long.
André
Nick Wagg wrote:
>
> Matt Kennel (Remove 'NOSPAM' to reply) wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:35:20 GMT, Mark Boon <tes...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> > :In The Netherlands there's currently a great shortage of programmers
> > :as well. Paradoxically however, even though the wages seem to be much
> > :lower than in the U.S., they seem to remain more or less constant. The
> > :average is even dropping a bit, though that seems to be caused by the
> > :increasingly younger age at which programmers get recruited.
> >
> > In a market economy this is prima facie evidence that there is NOT a
> > ''shortage'' of programmers.
>
> The Netherlands is not a market economy - all programmers work for
> Philips. :)
no true (period); good joke though!
--
André
O- (-o-)
Doug Seay
Kevin Swan wrote:
>
> First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
> would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
> wouldn't hire them at all.
Maybe so back in the States, but here in France there is another
dynamic: layoffs are nearly impossible. Companies are afraid to hire
and get stuck with people they can't get rid of. They pay more for the
peace of mind knowing that they can get rid of the contractor easily.
> Secondly, whenever a company brings in cheap labour such as contractors,
> they usually face A LOT of pressure from its union and employees.
I haven't heard about this being a huge problem here. Unless you are EU
or ex-Colonial, it is fairly hard to get a work permit for France. And
most EU folks don't qualify as "cheap labo(u)r".
> It is for these reasons that companies are shy about bringing in
> contractors for short-term work.
Nope. For short stuff, they prefer contractors.
Just adding a different point-of-view.
- doug
PS - This thread is way off-topic. Where should we move it?
Misc.jobs.discuss.workplace perhaps?
K. Smith
Doug Seay wrote:
>
> Kevin Swan wrote:
> >
> > First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
> > would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
> > wouldn't hire them at all.
>
> Maybe so back in the States, but here in France there is another
> dynamic: layoffs are nearly impossible. Companies are afraid to hire
> and get stuck with people they can't get rid of. They pay more for the
> peace of mind knowing that they can get rid of the contractor easily.
>
As far as pay, some other have mentioned this, but in the US pay as a
contractor is generally higher than a "permanent" employee of a company.
I guess (in my experience) that here in the US, it's about the same as
you are saying in France, but for different reasons. It just isn't good
press for a company to have lay-offs. I just left a large US company
that uses contractors extensively. The reason being that when times get
rough, the contractors will be the first to go and the company still
looks good because they didn't have layoffs.
[snip]
> > It is for these reasons that companies are shy about bringing in
> > contractors for short-term work.
>
> Nope. For short stuff, they prefer contractors.
>
> Just adding a different point-of-view.
I have to agree with this for the US, also (of course, this is just what
I've seen and I've not seen everything)
Kristi
Nigel Tzeng
In article <wk4t9kr...@vggas.com>,
James Youngman <JYou...@vggas.com> wrote:
[snip]
>The last contractor that worked here was paid [*] in three months what the
>WHOLE DEPARTMENT (4 people) earned in a year.
>
>[*] Well, that's what we paid the agency, but I can't see the agency
>taking more than a 50% cut.
Depends. The body shops around here charge about $90-120/hr and pay
about $50-60K/yr (25-30/hr ballpark). Even assuming a decent benefits
package that could be anywhere from a little under half to quite a bit
more than half.
Body shops tend to be fairly light on the benefits side. So I tend to
think over half is the more likely.
Nigel
Eric Buckley
Jeffrey C. Dege wrote:
> How much did it cost to set up those benefits? I had a company lay me
> off one week and offer to hire me back as a contractor the next, so
> I took a quick look at how much time, effort, and money I would need
> to set up my own health coverage, retirement plan, tax withholding,
> etc., and it didn't look cheap.
My prime offers health insurance and a 401K to W2 contractors, so that
was no big deal. Since I'm W2 and not 1099, taxes are pretty much taken
care of (although they are always off somewhat because my hours
fluctuate.) Even without that, health is just a physical and a phone
call, and any competent financial advisor can set up a Keogh for less
than $1000 (some will do it for free depending on how much you're
investing.) Life and disability were a simple phone call to my insurance
agent. If you are truly an independent (which I may be if sec. 1706 gets
rewritten - write congress today!) then you need an accountant and a
lawer. When I was independent, I spent about $2000/yr on these folks.
I'll admit, there is a startup cost both in terms of money and time. But
what business venture doesn't have this? If you're uncomfortable with
having to take care of these things, you can still work salary for a
consulting company. You get what you pay for, though. If the consulting
company is going to assume all the risk and administration, don't
complain when they keep half the rate for themselves. The difference
between consulting salaries and regular employee wages is not large for
programmers. Consulting managers & partners can make some serious bucks,
but that's a different story.
Nick Wagg
James Youngman wrote:
>
> The last contractor that worked here was paid [*] in three months what the
> WHOLE DEPARTMENT (4 people) earned in a year.
>
> [*] Well, that's what we paid the agency, but I can't see the agency
> taking more than a 50% cut.
One company I used to work for takes more than 50% but nothing will
tempt me to mention its name.
G Moore
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:52:42 -0500, "Charles E. Matthews"
<chu...@infonet.isl.net> wrote:
>Kevin Swan wrote:
>>
>> Secondly, whenever a company brings in cheap labour such as contractors,
>> they usually face A LOT of pressure from its union and employees.
>
>
>I've been working in this field for 20 years. I've never ever met a
>programmer who belongs to a union. That doesn't mean that they don't
>exist, but it seriously damages your argument.
that's probably because the software and hardware changes so much,
that there is no method of unionizing.
"We all will collectively not produce software for your PC"
that's ok, i'll buy a different computer, or do it myself.
Jeffrey C. Dege
On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:24:20 -0500, Eric Buckley <Eric.NoSp...@edwardjones.com> wrote:
>Jeffrey C. Dege wrote:
>
>> How much did it cost to set up those benefits? I had a company lay me
>> off one week and offer to hire me back as a contractor the next, so
>> I took a quick look at how much time, effort, and money I would need
>> to set up my own health coverage, retirement plan, tax withholding,
>> etc., and it didn't look cheap.
>
>what business venture doesn't have this? If you're uncomfortable with
>having to take care of these things, you can still work salary for a
>consulting company. You get what you pay for, though. If the consulting
>company is going to assume all the risk and administration, don't
>complain when they keep half the rate for themselves.
At the time, I had neither the skills nor the contacts to make it as a
contractor, and the idea of setting up all of that for a single three-to-
six month stint didn't seem at all attractive. If I do move to the
contracting side of the street, I'd expect to stay there long enough
to amortize the startup costs. In this case, I couldn't.
--
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence.
-- Edsger W. Dijkstra, SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 17, Number 5
Kenneth P. Turvey
>>>>> "James" == James Youngman <JYou...@vggas.com> writes:
James> <snort!>
James> The last contractor that worked here was paid [*] in three
James> months what the WHOLE DEPARTMENT (4 people) earned in a
James> year.
James> [*] Well, that's what we paid the agency, but I can't see
James> the agency taking more than a 50% cut.
Most agencies take more than %50. One I worked for years ago billed
me out at 2.5 * my rate. (They provided benefits and such).
--
Kenneth P. Turvey <ktu...@pug1.SprocketShop.com>
Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad name.
-- Henry Kissinger
Steffen Krug
Ha Ha!
especially for JAVA developers the Netherlands are very interesting! I
had 3 short term contracts there this year, and they were payed very
good! The secound thing is, that Netherlandish companys are not so
buerocratic like german ones (normally I work in germany). And the third
is (in my opinion) with a Netherlandish company you don't need a layer
to set up the contract, in germany it's a must!
Steffen
James Youngman
ke...@kombat.acadiau.ca (Kevin Swan) writes:
> First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
> would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
> wouldn't hire them at all.
<snort!>
The last contractor that worked here was paid [*] in three months what the
WHOLE DEPARTMENT (4 people) earned in a year.
[*] Well, that's what we paid the agency, but I can't see the agency
Bas Ven
Constantin Okrainets wrote:
>
> Cliff Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> wrote
> >
> > > There is an interesting article about programmer:
> > > The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
> > > prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
> > > http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
> >
> > Yep, there is such a huge drought, that they still pay newly minted MBA's two
> > to three times what an experienced programmer gets.
> >
> > This is typical business propaganda. If they can show that a 'shortage' exists,
> > they can import cheap programmers into the U.S. Unfortunately, it always works,
> > much to the detriment of programmer's pay.
>
> Bullshit.
>
> It's not possible to "import cheap programmers".
> In petition employer have to show that salary of prospective
> programmer will be average or more for position specified
> in geographical area (state). Otherwise work permit isnt given.
> This is basic requirement.
>
> I know a lot of "imported" programmers and I assure you
> NONE of them gets less than average and vast majority
> gets not less than fresh minted MBA.
>
> ---
> Const. Okrainets
But 'they' can export work to 'cheap' countries. What I see happening
is that
world wide companies export programming work to other countries like
China or
Eastern Europe. (The article only mentioned getting programmers from
these countries)
Bas Ven
Kevin McCarty wrote:
>[snip]
> So please tell me what the wages for programmers are in Europe.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
With my particular skill (TMN, CMIP, GDMO just to give a few
key words) I can make as a contractor around 120 Dutch guilders/hr
(which is about 40 pounds or $60 /hr). I do not work as a contractor
(yet) but recently I have looked around and this is what I was
offered for jobs in the Netherlands, UK and Italy. I guess it is
the common rate for my particular skills. To give an indication,
this is about 3 times as much as I am making right now, being
'permanently' employed. I follow this thread with a lot of interest
since I am (right now) evaluating my position and seriously
contemplating a move to working as a contractor. What I do not
understand is that employers apparently do not want to fork out money
for their programmers. Even though there is a shortage of programmers
my salary has not raised accordingly.
I do believe that in the States a 'permanent' position does not exist.
It is quite easy to let people go and the benefits of a permanent
position are marginal. If I were employed in the States it would be
as a contractor. Any American who wants to tell me why he/she is
permanently employed :) ?
Patrick Ryan
The current state of affairs with contractors versus full time employees
is the refusal of HR to face a fundamental fact about programmers: It is
indeed possible for one programmer to be 10 times more effective at their
job than another. Given that, it doesn't seem unreasonable to charge two
or three times as much. Thats impossible as a FT employee, but quite
possible for contractors.
The rest is simple free market economics.
-Pat Ryan
My views do not necessarily represent those of my company; nor indeed of
any other sentient being.
Bradley K. Sherman
In article <m2sox46...@pug1.sprocketshop.com>,
Kenneth P. Turvey <ktu...@pug1.SprocketShop.com> wrote:
> ...
>Most agencies take more than %50. One I worked for years ago billed
>me out at 2.5 * my rate. (They provided benefits and such).
That does *not* seem to be true of the contracting agencies
that we're dealing with in Silicon Valley where 15-25% seems
to be the agency cut.
--bks
Jeffrey C. Dege
On 16 Jul 1997 09:49:26 -0400, Joe Seigh <se...@bose.com> wrote:
>
>
>In article <33CB0D...@nmt.edu>, Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> writes:
>|>
>|> There is an interesting article about programmer:
>|> The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
>|> prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
>|> http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
>
>a shortage of programmers specialized in the exact set of skills
>for the particular positions that are open, but that's because
>nobody want's to train anyone, not because there's a programmer
>shortage.
This isn't the only article I've seen lamenting the shortage of qualified
programmers. I recently read an article in Business Week titled
"Software gap - a growing crisis for computers". A few quotes:
"The overriding issue is people - specifically, skilled computer
personnel... Already, the supply is far short of the demand, and
the gap is widening inexorably. For the foreseable future, there
is literally no possibility that we shall have enough trained
people to go around."
The implication of this gap for business and science ... is that
"use of computer systems five years hence will be seriously
hobbled". There are only about 120,000 programmers in the U.S. -
and right now there's a shortage of 55,000 or more of these
new professionals, according to some estimates.
[...]
John A. Devries, chairman of Computer Applications Inc., emphasizes,
"Unquestionably there is a software problem that will extend for
two years or more."
[...]
Want ads in any newspaper show brisk demand for programmers.
Recruiters are active and job-hopping is common; one company
is offering a $100 reward for leads to programmers. Salaries
for college-graduate beginners start at $6,000; a couple of
years experience brings $10,000 to $12,000; special knowledge
in key areas such as time-sharing or systems programming brings
$15,000 or more.
[...]
"The market for EDP personnel is tighter than hell." According
to Dick H. Brandon, head of Brandon Applied Systems, there's a
need for 175,000 now - and by 1970 this need will swell to
220,000, plus 275,000 related jobs, in the U.S. alone. And
rapid growth in Western Europe makes it an international
shortage, as well.
from "Software gap - a growing crisis for computers", BUSINESS WEEK,
November 5, 1966, pp. 126-133.
(At least it's reassuring to know that things can only get better...)
--
The customer proceeds to go through each change line-by-line.
Excruciating detail, which no logic can divine.
And when it ends there's only four not sitting their agog:
The customer, the manager, the pony and the dog.
Ross Jones
> Const. Okrainets wrote
> > It's not possible to "import cheap programmers".
> > In petition employer have to show that salary of prospective
> > programmer will be average or more for position specified
> > in geographical area (state). Otherwise work permit isnt given.
> > This is basic requirement.
> >
> > I know a lot of "imported" programmers and I assure you
> > NONE of them gets less than average and vast majority
> > gets not less than fresh minted MBA.
> But 'they' can export work to 'cheap' countries. What I see happening
> is that
> world wide companies export programming work to other countries like
> China or
> Eastern Europe. (The article only mentioned getting programmers from
> these countries)
And of course not forgetting Bangalore in India. I don't know if you
read
the article in Wired last year about Bangalore but I know of a few
British companies that now have software written over there.
Ross Jones
Noah Clements
I think that the "drought" that was talked about in Business Week
certainly did not pertain to Java programmers, or the vast hordes of
programmers that previously worked on many business's "mission
critical" systems trying to break into "client-server" development.
There really is a drought of people willing (wanting) to work on
Cobol, DB2, IDMS, etc. systems. All anyone I know talks about is
wishing that they could land a gig writing Java. I actually have one
that will let me use it for some things (as well as VB, Excel,
others), and the funny thing is that it is in support of a so-called
legacy system on which nobody wants to work.
On 17 Jul 1997 21:06:22 GMT, "Cliff Rhodes" <crh...@flash.net> wrote:
>Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> wrote
>
>
Boyd Roberts
In article <slrn5tg2cp...@jdege.visi.com>, jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) writes:
>
> Want ads in any newspaper show brisk demand for programmers.
> Recruiters are active and job-hopping is common; one company
> is offering a $100 reward for leads to programmers. Salaries
> for college-graduate beginners start at $6,000; a couple of
> years experience brings $10,000 to $12,000; special knowledge
> in key areas such as time-sharing or systems programming brings
> $15,000 or more.
Who are these idiots? $6k? That's $3/hour.
You'd be paid better at McDonalds.
'Special knowledge'? $15k? Do me a favour.
--
Boyd Roberts <bo...@france3.fr> N 31 447109 5411310
``Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad.'' -- rob
Kevin Raulerson
In article <33d8498d...@news.concentric.net>, 2c...@concentric.net
(Noah Clements) wrote:
> I think that the "drought" that was talked about in Business Week
> certainly did not pertain to Java programmers, or the vast hordes of
> programmers that previously worked on many business's "mission
> critical" systems trying to break into "client-server" development.
>
> There really is a drought of people willing (wanting) to work on
> Cobol, DB2, IDMS, etc. systems. All anyone I know talks about is
> wishing that they could land a gig writing Java. I actually have one
> that will let me use it for some things (as well as VB, Excel,
> others), and the funny thing is that it is in support of a so-called
> legacy system on which nobody wants to work.
The "conventional wisdom" that you just about can't find a job in Java
(which admittedly is not exactly what you said) was true up until about a
month ago. I've just suffered though a year of it.
However, over the past month I've gotten more inquiries than I have time to
accept. (I do Java contract programming via telecommuting.) Most of the
inquiries that I have followed up have led to work.
The drought is affecting the Java programming market -- at least to the
point where we Java programmers now can find work. I'm sure the maturing
of and increasing use of Java is also responsible.
Kevin
--
Kevin Raulerson Kev...@bga.com
Java Contract Programming
614 South First #356 512 442 9310
Austin, Texas, USA 78704
Java Contract Programming
http://www.realtime.net/~kevinrl/
Jeff Dege
Boyd Roberts (bo...@france3.fr) wrote:
: In article <slrn5tg2cp...@jdege.visi.com>, jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) writes:
: >
: > Want ads in any newspaper show brisk demand for programmers.
: > Recruiters are active and job-hopping is common; one company
: > is offering a $100 reward for leads to programmers. Salaries
: > for college-graduate beginners start at $6,000; a couple of
: > years experience brings $10,000 to $12,000; special knowledge
: > in key areas such as time-sharing or systems programming brings
: > $15,000 or more.
:
: Who are these idiots? $6k? That's $3/hour.
:
: You'd be paid better at McDonalds.
:
: 'Special knowledge'? $15k? Do me a favour.
You missed the following:
: > from "Software gap - a growing crisis for computers", BUSINESS WEEK,
: > November 5, 1966, pp. 126-133.
^^^^
----
.sig
David Bradley
Bas Ven <v...@ats.nld.alcatel.nl> wrote:
>What I do not
>understand is that employers apparently do not want to fork out money
>for their programmers. Even though there is a shortage of programmers
>my salary has not raised accordingly.
>I do believe that in the States a 'permanent' position does not exist.
>It is quite easy to let people go and the benefits of a permanent
>position are marginal. If I were employed in the States it would be
>as a contractor. Any American who wants to tell me why he/she is
>permanently employed :) ?
The first question I would ask is what does your employeer do? One thing I
made a requirement for my employeer is that software IS the product or an
extremely important part of it. Most companies large and small that produce
something else besides software view software as a necessary evil. They do
there best to reduce costs as any good business would. Unfortunately this
doesn't create a great environment to develop software in.
I've done contracting for about 6 or 7 years and for the last couple of years
I've gotten out and employeed by a software company. The biggest plus is the
focus on quality. As a contractor, most companies only care if it works.
When your writting software as a product the company wants to make sure the
product is of good quality as well as does it work.
I make about the same money, maybe a bit less and I have better benefits. But
the biggest benefit was being able to focus on quality and a more consistent
development environment.
One problem I've had to deal with is location. I'm in the Midwest,
specifically Ohio and it's not exactly thriving with software oriented
companies. But on the other hand the number of people I have to compete with
isn't as great, so I imagine it balances out to some degree.
David Bradley bra...@erinet.com
Software Engineer
Brian Kimball
Kevin Raulerson <Kev...@bga.com> wrote in article
<KevinRL-ya0234800...@news3.realtime.net>...
> The "conventional wisdom" that you just about can't find a job in Java
> (which admittedly is not exactly what you said) was true up until about a
> month ago. I've just suffered though a year of it.
>
> However, over the past month I've gotten more inquiries than I have time
to
> accept. (I do Java contract programming via telecommuting.) Most of the
> inquiries that I have followed up have led to work.
>
> The drought is affecting the Java programming market -- at least to the
> point where we Java programmers now can find work. I'm sure the maturing
> of and increasing use of Java is also responsible.
You should have tried Sun. I'm a freshman CS major who happens to know a
thing or two about Java. My dad gave a talk at Sun and mentioned that, and
someone immediately interrupted with "Does he want a job??" Obviously it
was meant as a joke, but it points to the lack of (quality?) programmers in
the industry. And hell, if business week says so, it's got to be true. :)
kimball
Frank A. Adrian
Nick Wagg wrote in article <33D8C9...@lsl.co.uk>...
[Stuff about communications problems with remote contractors]
>Remote development rarely seems to work out cheaper in the long run.
I'd almost go as far to state that unless you have an organization
at CMM Level 2 or 3, you don't have the project management
infrastructure or requirements specification expertise needed to
handle off-site work with any sort of efficiency or cost savings.
Hell, most organizations have enough trouble communicating
within their own internal groups that the idea of using externally
sited contractors is pure hubris.
--
Frank A. Adrian
First DataBank
frank_...@firstdatabank.com (W)
fra...@europa.com (H)
This message does not necessarily reflect the views of my
employer, its parent company, or any of the co-subsidiaries
of the parent company.
Jeremy Slade
Boyd Roberts wrote:
>
> In article <slrn5tg2cp...@jdege.visi.com>, jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) writes:
> >
> > Want ads in any newspaper show brisk demand for programmers.
> > Recruiters are active and job-hopping is common; one company
> > is offering a $100 reward for leads to programmers. Salaries
> > for college-graduate beginners start at $6,000; a couple of
> > years experience brings $10,000 to $12,000; special knowledge
> > in key areas such as time-sharing or systems programming brings
> > $15,000 or more.
>
> Who are these idiots? $6k? That's $3/hour.
>
> You'd be paid better at McDonalds.
Who's the idiot? The article he was quoting was just a few years old...
Jeremy
Jerry Heyman
Boyd Roberts (bo...@france3.fr) wrote:
: In article <slrn5tg2cp...@jdege.visi.com>, jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) writes:
: >
: > Want ads in any newspaper show brisk demand for programmers.
: > Recruiters are active and job-hopping is common; one company
: > is offering a $100 reward for leads to programmers. Salaries
: > for college-graduate beginners start at $6,000; a couple of
: > years experience brings $10,000 to $12,000; special knowledge
: > in key areas such as time-sharing or systems programming brings
: > $15,000 or more.
: Who are these idiots? $6k? That's $3/hour.
: You'd be paid better at McDonalds.
: 'Special knowledge'? $15k? Do me a favour.
You didn't read the WHOLE article. The information came from a Business
Week article from 1967!
: --
: Boyd Roberts <bo...@france3.fr> N 31 447109 5411310
: ``Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad.'' -- rob
jerry
--
Jerry Heyman O- Team AMIGA
Jerry....@tivoli.com by day : Build and Tools, Tivoli Systems Inc.
hey...@acad.stedwards.edu by nite : Adjunct Lecturer, St. Edward's Univ.
hey...@acm.org always
<A HREF="http://www.cs.stedwards.edu/u/heyman/"> My other self </A>
Nick Wagg
Bas Ven wrote:
>
> But 'they' can export work to 'cheap' countries. What I see happening
> is that
> world wide companies export programming work to other countries like
> China or
> Eastern Europe. (The article only mentioned getting programmers from
> these countries)
Origin are experimenting with moving development of some projects to
India. However, they are finding that communication is exceedingly
difficult making spec'ing things out very awkward and the results often
don't adhere to the specs. Problems probably arise because of distance
and because the UK and India are divided by a common language.
Remote development rarely seems to work out cheaper in the long run.
Other companies I have worked for have also found that remote
development even at their US sites often does not work for similar
reasons.
John Park
Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
> That does *not* seem to be true of the contracting agencies
> that we're dealing with in Silicon Valley where 15-25% seems
> to be the agency cut.
>
> --bks
That's unheard of... I would have to agree that most contracting
companies take more then 50% of the billable rate.
--
------------------------------------
Internet: jp...@spd.dsccc.com
These are just my humble opinion....
------------------------------------
Ron Burton
John Park wrote:
>
> Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
> > That does *not* seem to be true of the contracting agencies
> > that we're dealing with in Silicon Valley where 15-25% seems
> > to be the agency cut.
> >
> > --bks
>
> That's unheard of... I would have to agree that most contracting
> companies take more then 50% of the billable rate.
>
Man that lousy. Ive been around a while and I have never had more than
25% taken. Tho I imagine it happens 50% is rarely the true take. Think
about it. You get $35 to $40 an hour. The contractin agencies are not
likely to get $70 to $80 and hourer. I suppose %50 may be the case for
contractors on the lower pay scale. Still thats out ragios. But hey
dont get upset with them, its the people awarding the contracts and the
contractor who agrees to take the job that are at fault if anyone.
Ron Burton
Centaur Soft
John Winters
In article <33D8B3...@collins.rockwell.com>,
Roy Grimm <rag...@collins.rockwell.com> wrote:
>
>Here's the short list:
>
>1. vacation: standard from what I see in other companies
>2. paid holidays: 14 days a year in addition to the regular vacation
As a matter of interest, and to humour a non-American, what's the
difference between "vacation" and "paid holidays"? We just have
paid holidays (and I suppose, unpaid holidays) here.
TIA,
John
--
John Winters. Wallingford, Oxon, England.
jc54a0500-GayJ(DR3898)31c55
Ron Burton (Ron_B...@bscc.bls.com) spewed forth:
In this area (Denver, CO, USA) it seems that 50% is about right. I have
talked to some that want 65%. My current agency is taking 33%, but they
claim only 23% ("barely making it") (yes I have seen the PO). A lot of
agencies that have called usually have a conversation along the lines of
"How much do you currently make?" (like this has anything to do with
anything) "Will you take less?".
Also, the contracting agency usually has all of the cards as far as
negotiating goes, knowing what they are charging and what they are paying you.
When I wanted to renegotiate my rate (at the end of the original contract)
my current agency got all bent out of shape and told me how much they had
done for me (get big check, send me part) and would not even hear of
renegotiating.
--
john gay.
jgay @ drmail.dr.lucent.com
I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous
and give the wrong answers.
-- A Bit of Fry and Laurie
My posting on the internet is not a solicitation for junk email of any kind.
Any junk email received will be taken as a request for the video FAQ or
possibly any core dumps I might have laying around.
Disclaimer: The above is not necessarily the opinion of Lucent Technologies
(especially if it is boneheaded).
Billy Chambless
In article <5rcr9g$m...@polo.demon.co.uk>, jo...@polo.demon.co.uk (John Winters) writes:
|> As a matter of interest, and to humour a non-American, what's the
|> difference between "vacation" and "paid holidays"? We just have
|> paid holidays (and I suppose, unpaid holidays) here.
In US of A usage, "holiday" generally refers to days like Christmas and
New Year's Day, when most businesses are closed.
"Vacation" refers to discretionary time off -- ie. here's 14 vacation
days, you decide when you want to take them.
obOntopic: also, for me, sometimes I work on holidays if a project is
behind, but I don't take vacation days unless my projects are on track.
I can get a lot done at my shop during the Christmas holidays -- don't
have to fight for print-queue-space and I have almost all the CPUs to
myself!
--
* "We all agree on the necessity of compromise. We just can't agree on
* when it's necessary to compromise."
* --Larry Wall in <1991Nov13.1...@netlabs.com>
David Bradley
John Park <jp...@spd.dsccc.com> wrote:
>Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
>> That does *not* seem to be true of the contracting agencies
>> that we're dealing with in Silicon Valley where 15-25% seems
>> to be the agency cut.
>>
>> --bks
>
>That's unheard of... I would have to agree that most contracting
>companies take more then 50% of the billable rate.
I think it depends on the billable rate. Given that taxes account for the
majority of overhead in such operations that's going to be fairly constant
across the US. So if a company in the midwest is billing at $70 to $80 an
hour, the take could easily be %50, while in another part where they're
billing over $100 the overhead is a smaller portion so they're able to pass
that along to the worker.
Andrew Gabriel
Ah, so: a [US] "holiday" == a [UK] "bank holiday";
a [US] "vacation" == a [UK] "holiday";
In article <5rd2qu$nhf$2...@nntp.msstate.edu>,
bi...@cast.msstate.edu (Billy Chambless) writes:
>"Vacation" refers to discretionary time off -- ie. here's 14 vacation
>days, you decide when you want to take them.
At my last two jobs (UK), this figure has been 25 days but the company
has the right to fix when up to 7 of them are (typically between
Christmas and New Year so whole site can be closed down, but normally
only about 3 days are fixed in this way, and the rest are up to you).
Prior to this right to fix 7 days being introduced, the entitlement
was 21 days. These figures are typical of (the few) other companies
I know about in the UK. Actually, I almost never use up my full
holiday/vacation entitlement - this is common too amoungst computer
programmers I know.
--
Andrew Gabriel And...@cucumber.demon.co.uk
Consultant Software Engineer
Martin Hungerford
Eric Buckley <Eric.NoSp...@edwardjones.com> wrote:
> My prime offers health insurance and a 401K to W2 contractors, so that
> was no big deal. Since I'm W2 and not 1099, taxes are pretty much taken
> care of (although they are always off somewhat because my hours
> fluctuate.) Even without that, health is just a physical and a phone
> call, and any competent financial advisor can set up a Keogh for less
> than $1000 (some will do it for free depending on how much you're
> investing.) Life and disability were a simple phone call to my insurance
> agent. If you are truly an independent (which I may be if sec. 1706 gets
> rewritten - write congress today!) then you need an accountant and a
> lawer. When I was independent, I spent about $2000/yr on these folks.
> Eric Buckley
Um, this is a serious question, what do 401k, W2, 1099, 1706 mean in
this context? I see them regularly on job adds from the US.
Martin Hungerford
--
jong...@netcon.net.au
"Drunk Gets Nine Months in Violin Case"
Martin Hungerford
Steffen Krug <pdgs...@ford.com> wrote:
> had 3 short term contracts there this year, and they were payed very
> good! The secound thing is, that Netherlandish companys are not so
> buerocratic like german ones (normally I work in germany). And the third
> is (in my opinion) with a Netherlandish company you don't need a layer
^^^^^
> to set up the contract, in germany it's a must!
>
> Steffen
excuse me, what does this word mean in this context? I'm a computing
student in Australia with British citizenship - so looking as potential
work in Europe!
Thank you,
Martin Hungerford
p.s. delighted to hear about java being useful!
Tran Phan Anh
Martin Hungerford wrote:
> excuse me, what does this word mean in this context? I'm a computing
> student in Australia with British citizenship - so looking as potential
> work in Europe!
If you got British citizenship you should be able to study, work, and
live in any of the EC countries.
Anh
John D Salt
In article <5reng3$mnu$1...@gte1.gte.net>, Tran Phan Anh <a...@gte.net> wrote:
> [snips]
>If you got British citizenship you should be able to study, work, and
>live in any of the EC countries.
It ain't necessarily so. It depends what kind of British nationality
you've got. If you are a British Overseas Citizen, you do not have
the right of abode in the United Kingdom. (Yes, I know it's a
stupid idea, but what else did you expect from Thatcher?)
All the best,
John.
--
John D Salt Dept of IS & Computing,| A bit beyond perception's reach
Brunel U, Uxbridge, Middx UB8 3PH | I sometimes believe I see
Disclaimers: I speak only for me. | That life is two locked boxes, each
Launcher may train without warning.| Containing the other's key.
chris wiggs
Martin Hungerford wrote:
<snip>
> Um, this is a serious question, what do 401k, W2, 1099, 1706 mean in
> this context? I see them regularly on job adds from the US.
>
> Martin Hungerford
> --
> jong...@netcon.net.au
> "Drunk Gets Nine Months in Violin Case"
I'm not a professional, but briefly they refer to forms and sections
of the US Tax Code. 401K is a section that allows companies to offer
tax-deferred savings plans that generally reduce an employee's current
tax obligation and are considered a benefit for full time employees.
W2 is a form that is used to report compensation and tax withholdings
for a full/parttime employee. 1099 is a form used to report a number
of misc incomes, including that earned as an independent consultant
(not an employee). 1706 is a section of the tax code that explains
what conditions determine whether an worker can be considered an
independent consultant. I'm sure I will be corrected if there are
any errors above.
Mark Boon
>Steffen Krug <pdgs...@ford.com> wrote:
>> had 3 short term contracts there this year, and they were payed very
>> good! The secound thing is, that Netherlandish companys are not so
>> buerocratic like german ones (normally I work in germany). And the third
>> is (in my opinion) with a Netherlandish company you don't need a layer
> ^^^^^
>> to set up the contract, in germany it's a must!
>>
>> Steffen
>
>excuse me, what does this word mean in this context? I'm a computing
>student in Australia with British citizenship - so looking as potential
>work in Europe!
>
The proper word is "Dutch".
Tran Phan Anh
John D Salt wrote:
>
> In article <5reng3$mnu$1...@gte1.gte.net>, Tran Phan Anh <a...@gte.net> wrote:
> > [snips]
> >If you got British citizenship you should be able to study, work, and
> >live in any of the EC countries.
>
> It ain't necessarily so. It depends what kind of British nationality
> you've got. If you are a British Overseas Citizen, you do not have
Interesting. I did not know that the British had different classes of
citizenship.
Anh
Chuck Herrick
THow about you two take this fascinating (not)
thread somewhere appropriate? I.e. out of
comp.lang.java
--
mailto:cher...@concentric.net
I speak only for myself. I copyright all my email and netnews posts.
Phil & Kay Buglass
> The last contractor that worked here was paid [*] in three months what
the
> WHOLE DEPARTMENT (4 people) earned in a year.
>
> [*] Well, that's what we paid the agency, but I can't see the agency
> taking more than a 50% cut.
>
No? My first job on moving from UK to the US was with an agency who
payed me 33% of what the client payed them!
All the talk of long-term contractors: I went to a client on a 3-6 month
contract in October
1990. I finally left when they started getting rid of all their (many)
contractors in July 1995!
Cheers,
Phil.
Ron Burton
Ok I cant resist, Sorry for yet another cross post.
Since we have the would of programmers contributing here, I feal this
is a good time to find out what those of you who have traveled abroad
think. Basicly Im interested in finding out where you think the best
Jobs you worked on where? Mind you this is not a issue of salary but
overall like vs. dislike. Did those who worked in US find it
enjoyable? I don't subscribe to the fact that work is work. I realy
beleive one should enjoy the work they do. So where is the heaven of
the Computer industry now?
Ron Burton
Centaur Soft
P.S. I often thought of going to Australia, I here that got giant mice
with realy big feet there. My interest was sparked by a old, I beleive
to be, Australian based technology show called Beyond 2000.
Randy Kaelber
Ron Burton (Ron_B...@bscc.bls.com) wrote:
> Man that lousy. Ive been around a while and I have never had more than
> 25% taken. Tho I imagine it happens 50% is rarely the true take. Think
My first programming gig: I got $8/hour. The company contracted me at
$65/hour. They got 87%. Of course, though I was good at what I did, I had
no degree at the time, and no "job" experience. It beat being a computer
operator for six and hour. :)
Now, that I have my B.S., and 7+ years of "professional" experience, I
make a *bit* more :), though not as much as I could. But there's more to a
job than money. I took a $10,000/yr cut to work where I'm working now.
Obviously, I didn't go for money, though I get a perverse thrill that not
one dime of my money goes into the Social Security rathole. :)
--
Randy Kaelber: kael...@muohio.edu http://avian.dars.muohio.edu/~randy/
DARS Programmer/Analyst, Miami University, Oxford, OH 45056 USA
------------------------------------------------------------
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were
a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." - Mark Twain